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Silveronfire
07-08-2009, 05:27 AM
Last night I was leading a 10 naxx (srs business right?) and there were a couple of rules I felt needed to be stated, and I was wondering what you all thought:

1. How does loot work?

Mainspec (what you are in the dungeon)>Offspec>DE

a.) But I'm a dps and i wants my tanking loooooooots

Reason: Tough. If you want to go as a spec we dont need, then feel free to join a different raid at a different time. If this raid does not need your other spec and you run as an "offspec" understand you will not neccessarily get priority rolls on what you want.

2.) Don't AFK in front of a boss without saying how long you will be gone, or you get no loot for that boss.

Reason: if you miss a readycheck then Johnny rogueface thinks he can afk, then you come back and he's afk...oh the vicious cycle.

3.) Don't stand in front of the boss and stare at him when hes dead or I wont masterloot anything to you.

Reason: Go clear some trash. Speed this up. If you think you need to be next to the boss for loot, you don't.

4.) If you have an opinion as to how we can do something better, whisper it to me, dont start explaining the fight to people loudly in vent or in raid chat.

Reason: Makes it impossible to coordinate people, if you want to help whisper if you want to show off find a different raid.

5.) If you Check YES on a ready check, make sure you actually read the raidwarning instructions.

Reason: If you can't read you can't play wow.

6.) If you want something and its appropriate to roll on it, do so. If you dont please dont roll "just to see" and pass it.

Reason: I dont want to hear QQ when johny rogueface didn't get his dps trinket b/c a DK who does not need it rolled for funsies.

7.) your rolls count if they fall between my RW to roll and my saying grats to the winner. otherwise tough. (Anyone else play 40K? If the dice is on the floor, I dont care that your S5 powerweapon just pwned that wrathlord....bonus points if you know what I mean.)

Reason: lots of people like to roll "just to see" or to "warm the dice" This is patently useless and does *not* alter your odds of a "good roll. I feel setting a limit on when rolls are accepted prevents people from QQing too much that "oh that was my roll for such and such".

All in all these are a mix of what i used and what I will probably use going forward. Penalties for failure include in some cases not winning that piece ( roll too late or too early ) or failure to recieve loot for the boss at all (extended no-warning afk in front of the boss is detrimental to the raid as a whole).

I'd like opinions and feedback on these rules in general, not in the their relation to 10 naxx as I am aware 10 naxx is not really "srs busness" as my friend says. I just feel that organization is important for those of us who dont want to spend 6 hours in a simple instance.

orcstar
07-09-2009, 01:45 AM
I'll list the rules I use in raidpugs:
1) At the start of the run you declare a mainspec, tank/dps/healer. You are rolling for that during the run as mainspec regardless of what role you play.

2)Gentlemen rules: we use rolls but in a situation where player A has gotten 2 items and player B 0 during the run, player B will automatically win if both A and B roll.

3)Mainspec>Offspec>DE except for BoE items then it's Mainspec>Raidroll. and if you win a BoE mainspec you equip it.

Silveronfire
07-09-2009, 06:36 AM
In most situations I disagree with the "pick a spec." If you are a prot/arms warrior and you want prot gear, tank the run. If the run is full on tanks and you go as arms, you need on dps plate gear.

Now if you are undergeared for the instance, say your prot set is 78 blues 22k hp and 335 defense or so, im sorry but you can not tank naxx (540 Defense minimum for instance.) In that case, there is a logic of instance progression that very likely the tanks who are tanking the run already followed (80 regs>Heroics). IMO having one geared spec does not *garauntee* you the right to roll on offspec loot for every run. In many cases it works out that the tanks need dps loot and the dps need tank loot. Here is a case where geared players can farm easier content, abuse their geared specs and get nice pieces faster. Yay teamwork!!

Essentially I am against 4 people showing up to a 10 man needing on tank plate. If you want offspec loot, I say ask the lootmaster and the rest of the raid, be a gentleman about it and coordinate. Most of the time it works out. If it doesn't don't feel obligated to go with that group, there will be others.

orcstar
07-09-2009, 01:17 PM
In most situations I disagree with the "pick a spec."
Well as a raidleader you're free to say: we've got already enough people going for tankspec, pick something else or we find someone else.

On the other hand why I do this, is that you also encounter that great great full Ulduar geared tank you want in your nax pug that needs nothing from the dungeon but does want to gear his offspec dps.

As a raidleader you should try to find the balance.

MasterDave
07-12-2009, 08:42 AM
In most situations I disagree with the "pick a spec." If you are a prot/arms warrior and you want prot gear, tank the run. If the run is full on tanks and you go as arms, you need on dps plate gear.


If the run is full on tanks, either don't invite any more warriors if the only people wanting to go want tank loot, or let them roll on the only reason to go?

Here's the secret to WoW, I'll share it with you and everyone else:

Players matter. Characters, specs, gear and everything else are %90 meaningless. You want to fill your raid with good people who play their class well and understand their role in the raid. You don't want a turd of a rogue who doesn't interrupt, has no idea what he's doing and just wants to try to hit the top of the dps meter.

So, if you've got someone who's totally geared out on tank gear that's actually willing to come tank your raid because he's bored or your friend, are you going to REALLY say "fuck off great tank, you have to roll on gear you can't use and you have to wait for the DK in blues to pass on every DPS option" just because that's your obstinate way of making rules that suit you better than everyone else in the raid?

Come on, have some sense about things.

Maybe you can get away with being a douchey pug leader on big servers where people aren't going to remember you next week or next month... but on a smaller server like I'm on, you get a rep really, really quickly. And the guys who make all the silly rules and act like a naxx 10 run is super serious... have a hard time filling their raids with anything but bad people anymore because they're just not worth the time to run with.

tl;dr: if you're going to be an autocratic rules nazi, you need a guild where you have like-minded people. if you're going to run a pug, run a damn pug.

Gingerjordan
07-12-2009, 09:44 AM
Pugs are just a group of people with the same objective, you dont really know these people and what the want/need.
Its hard to give structure to a pug because of everyones differences and prefrences. So while it is good to have a few simple rules to follow, i think that looting rules should be changed for each group and ones that you can all agree on, if someone doesnt agree, get someone else.

GiSonata
07-14-2009, 05:40 AM
At the moment my guild runs most of our raids as a full guild affair when possible, in 25s we still need to pug members due to lack of turn out (real life issues happen) but how we end up deciding loot when having pug members in the raid is simple.

Main Spec > Off Spec. No Reservations.
(Also we'll do this in full guild runs, but a bit of a loot council may come into those decisions but only when the raid is a full guild run).

Its just a standard rule, we do set some limits on that however. If a warlock and a healer roll on a healing item the healer will in all probality be awarded the item no matter the roll. Also we take into account your current piece of gear against this one, if the item is a sidegrade for you then it will most likely go to the member who needs it as an upgrade. (Shaman rolling on a weapon which was a needed upgrade for the other shaman and actually a downgrade for the one who won the roll).

Other than few situations like this we will not deviate from our rules, we can stomach that the Death Knight we carried through as a favour of a friend of guild leader who came in terribly geared won some great loot. Good for them, we will not however look at the DPS meter people post and say "Sorry, you didnt break 2.5k dps in naxx 25. Bad luck the items going to someone else." This person stuck with the raid for the entire raid, and it is not fair to suddenly change your mind and force another rule which was not stated beforehand.

Because we stated at the beginning our rules regarding loot and we will stick by them.

(If you say its Main > Off spec and No reservations, and you dont follow through with that you are tarnishing your reputation -- staying honest helps towards keeping a good reputation intact).

jafager
07-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Here's the secret to WoW, I'll share it with you and everyone else:

Players matter. Characters, specs, gear and everything else are %90 meaningless. You want to fill your raid with good people who play their class well and understand their role in the raid.

I love you, man.

Silveronfire
07-16-2009, 06:33 AM
tl;dr: if you're going to be an autocratic rules nazi, you need a guild where you have like-minded people. if you're going to run a pug, run a damn pug.


You might have missed a good part of my point I feel.

Its not deuschy to ask people to be clear and understand what happens UP FRONT. What is deuschy is to be unclear and then make rules up halfway through. I feel you must have had a bad experience with a raid leader telling you that "oh by the way, that item is on reserve for.....me" I know I have.

Thats what i want to avoid.

OF COURSE if that ulduar-25 geared tank comes in and wants to tank, by ALL MEANS he can. I'm just asking for clarity and a lil coordination.

As far as players mattering: You are absolutely right. What you seem to lack a grasp of is that in PUGS you rarely know the qualities of the people you play with. thats the single best and worst thing about them. Sometimes you have a tank drop in the middle of the raid and that dps dk in the corner whips out his full t7.5 tank set and mans up to replace. I say ROCK ON. In contrast there are those idiot rogues you mentioned that dont know how to hit any button that doesn't slice an enemy up. Or the hunter that cant kite slimes, or any other number of players with marginal skillsets and bad attitudes.

Not trying to be a nazi, and to be fair I never actually said any of those "rules" in a raid. I just wanted to. I hate waiting in front of a boss for a dps who decided to go eat a cupcake (not making up the cupcake reference.) or hearing a tank QQ about not getting the dps trinket he needs if he did not SAY he needed it and work it out with the other dps who do too.

Can you honestly say that you disagree with everything I said? Not as hard and fast rules, but as a code of conduct in most PUGS? I am genuinely curious if you do, and want to hear how YOU would behave in a pug.

uglybbtoo
07-17-2009, 01:12 AM
I am with the rest the current raid tanks and healers get to roll on tank and healing loot anyone else is offspec. If a tank or healer is running as dps then clearly they aren't competent in those rolls so its an offspec roll. DPS is dime a dozen can get them anytime who cares if a DPS leaves because they won't get a roll on healing/tank loot.

I know when I used to run pug heroics I used to say before we started you roll need against me on tanking gear get a new tank because DK's in particular were notorious for doing it. I had a few who said they were only doing this for xyz tank drop and I simply said fine then you tank it and I would leave group. 90% of time I would get a whisper inviting me back to group they had kicked DK and were looking for a new DPS because its alot harder to find a tank than a dps.

orcstar
07-17-2009, 01:29 AM
Most important is the no matter what lootrules you choose, stick to them and make sure everyone knows them before getting saved.

That way even if things don't work out to some people, they can't qq because they agreed to those rules by not leaving the raid.

MasterDave
07-19-2009, 05:50 PM
I am with the rest the current raid tanks and healers get to roll on tank and healing loot anyone else is offspec. If a tank or healer is running as dps then clearly they aren't competent in those rolls so its an offspec roll. DPS is dime a dozen can get them anytime who cares if a DPS leaves because they won't get a roll on healing/tank loot.


this is the backwards ass logic that fails most pugs.

I know that you think it sounds great, but honestly you're just setting the raid up so that you can tank it and make sure there's only one person rolling on the tank loot against you. You're probably even the kind who's gonna make sure that second tank is a druid that way they'll have to default you all the plate.

I mean that's really what you're saying, isn't it? I am the tank, nobody can roll on my tank loot. Hate to break it to you but people aren't fooled, at least not the smart ones, when a raid leader comes up with a selfish way of reducing the chances for anyone but them to get the loot they want.

uglybbtoo
07-19-2009, 07:41 PM
Sorry to break it to you MasterDave I am not trying to exclusively get loot have no problem with other plate tanks infact havent tanked with a druid in a long long time. I have absolutely no problem rolling against another tank doesn't worry me in least and to be very clear what I do mean .... I AM AGAINST LOOT GOING TO SOME HALF ARSED DPS WITH VISIONS TO TANK OR HEAL BUT TOO USELESS TO LEVEL THERE SKILL BY DOING THAT FUNCTION. You have a problem with that fine one of us needs to find another raid.

Only tanks and healers have requirements they have to meet. Take a normal pug 75% of the dps won't even be hit capped or meet other key stats for there class but as a tank in naxx you don't have a choice you have to be crit capped or you cant do job and you are taking all the hits and ultimately the raid will fail if you can't do your job. For DPS the req aren't so black and white because although you may be fail DPS there is a chance that the others in group aren't fail and will cover you.

In a guild the tanks/healers always get first loot why do you think that is?

Most pugs fail not because of anything to do with your suggestion but because they are pugging half or more aren't in a raid guild and therefore half the raid doesn't have a clue. I have noticed that pug's have improved on our server because there are raiders levelling alt's and the retard rates in pugs has dropped.

The classic I still find is a pug group in Heigen first dance and over half the raid is dead ... have your excuse prepared hey ... ohhh I am lagging sorry :-) Whether you can get thru or not then relies on if you have anyone who can cleanse left. I think my record is 20min or something like that with only 3 healers and 2 tanks alive.

Edit: I have seen the wall of terror drop 3 times, last laugh 4 times the healing mace from KT 4 odd you try and you want that to go to a DPS who is 50% likely to never use it.

I should ask 1 other question are you a tank/healer or dps MasterDave?

Silveronfire
07-20-2009, 05:15 AM
To masterdave's credit there might be a frame of reference difference here. If we are talking about people who are so geared in their mainspec (BiSloters) that they might have actually had the time to spare to gather some decent offspec loot, to the point that they *could* tank in a raid....well thats one thing. In that case I suppose it comes down to managing the people well. I do see how having that 6k ret pally who does have a *Decent* tank set tanking instead of dpsing would be a terrible waste.

Organizing that mess for a PUG? Pain in my butt. That's why I'd hesitate, not due to being a loot whore...call me lazy if you must, but when there are 15 people in lfg for a 10 man and only one person has the sense to start the grp and put it together, imo they get to make some decisions as to how its going to work, if for nothing else so it DOES work. (failpugs ftl)

uglybbtoo
07-20-2009, 11:22 AM
I concur Silveronfire I wouldn't have a problem if I knew the DPS was actually a real tank and would definitely make use of the gear but how in the hell do you manage that.

MasterDave
07-20-2009, 05:54 PM
In a guild the tanks/healers always get first loot why do you think that is?


In my experience, it's been because those are the whiniest of whiners that need to be told repeatedly that they're special and shown favors or they'll go to another guild.

And it's unfortunately a self-serving prophecy because most healers and tanks that have gear (but not necessarily skill) CAN jump to any guild they want if they're willing to find a lesser progressed guild that can use them.

It's definitely not because gearing your tanks and healers with a priority over the rest of your entire guild is a recipe for success. Mathematically, you're better off having fantastic DPS, because the tanks in theory should be geared enough to handle the content the entire way through. It's not like the defense cap gets raised or anything get significantly changed and more HP is just the bonus you get with new gear anyway. It sure doesn't help to gear the tank when enrage timers are the things killing your group because you've got inferior DPS, and faster DPS helps your healers have to deal with less from bosses in general. Gearing tanks helps to conserve healer mana perhaps, but mathematically faster boss kills do a better job of this.



I should ask 1 other question are you a tank/healer or dps MasterDave?I'm a guy. I play characters. I've got one of each currently and I'd like to think I play them all pretty well. I also pug plenty of spots in my raids every single week because we raid at off times, and I know that being absurd about telling people what they can't roll on is a detriment to success. I'd MUCH rather have the 6k DPS boomkin come in and roll on the healing gear, than tell them to come try and heal in their half-assed resto set in order to get geared up as resto.

I mean honestly, do you expect everyone to just gear up on scraps, or do you really REALLY want them doing things they're not geared to do just so they can get the loot they need to not suck? At this point Naxx 25 is not serious business, so would you rather have a 5hr run with people in crappy gear, or a 2.5hr run with people in their main spec and Ulduar gear but letting some of them roll on offspec gear as their primary instead?

Simple rule: Declare a spec when you start a raid, that's what you get to roll on. Everything else is off. Dual Specs have for the most part made ideas like "you only roll on what you're doing" silly, because you can reconfigure the raid to max out your DPS on fights where you need it or switch up tanks and heals whenever you're on a part that needs more or less of whatever it is you brought.

if you're on Heigan where you need one tank, and your second (and third and fourth) tanks are in DPS specs and DPS gear, what are they rolling on the loot as? (this is assuming you care about having them switch to a DPS spec rather than just have multiple tanks in tank specs rolling up 1k dps or worse on 1-tank fights)

If you're on 4 Horsemen and you're sticking a real tank on each of the bosses, so you ask 2 of the DK's to put on tank gear and head to the back of the room, what loot are they rolling on?

Same goes for fights where you only need 2/3 healers in a 25-man and can spec out healers for DPS. Are they suddenly rolling only on DPS gear instead of the Healing gear they came for?

I mean the argument can be made both ways with a silly spec-based rule on rolling on gear, can't it?

And to be clear here, if you're running a pug it's none of your business what they're using the gear for once they get it. It's not a guild, it's not your guild run anymore, it's a pug. If you want influence and control over the loot rather than a fair shot for everyone, you don't pug. Period.

uglybbtoo
07-20-2009, 07:52 PM
At the end of the day you run your pug your way ... but I would say at least on our server and thats all I can really comment that would be a very unusual way to run a pug and I am not sure it would fly.

Only have 2 real questions and just asking not judging here more out of interest

Has it been hard to get healers and tanks?
What is your success rate on doing a full clear?

At the moment to be honest I usually leave my ALT tanks unsaved (yes I have alot of them I am a tankaholic) and the hopefully Sat/Sun/Mon I can get a part saved pug. I love someone in trade LFM 25man naxx raid id xxxxx 4HM/saph/KT or sometimes military/saph/KT thats the sort of raid I jump on.

Bountee
07-21-2009, 06:22 AM
Hi Guys,
A lot of the problems you are dealing with are specifically around loot. Obviously this is the motivator for that person being in the run. I have been raid leading for many years and after much deliberation we settle with a loot ladder system. So much so that we built one and made it publically available at The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com).
This has a number of advantages:
1) If they want to use their role on an off spec item. Go for it. They are now at the bottom of the loot ladder. Here ends the debate!
2) Now that we built an online system that anyone can access. Raid leaders can just say. Check out the web site..there are the rules. I didn't build it but we going with it. No more debate about whether or not you are being biased. Your just using a functional tool made available.

I tell you what since i been using that the issues have fallen away immensely. Of course we still get people saying. No lets just role. But just tel them to live with it or leave.

But a work of advice. Never activate the loot ladder till after the first boss goes down. There will always be someone at the bottom and no doubt the little prick will bail on you if they think they gunna miss out on loot.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bountee (Warrior Tank: Riddle of Steel - Aman'Thul)
Guild: Riddle of Steel (http://www.riddleofsteel.org.au)
Loot Ladder System: The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------

Silveronfire
07-21-2009, 07:44 AM
While your system is nice....the title of the thread is regarding PUG Raids.
I did notice the website mentioned it being fair to pugs, but its not really practical to use an addon based system like that for a PUG.

Unless it is, feel free to elaborate if you think it would work for a PUG.

whereami
07-21-2009, 08:58 AM
your loot system is a decent one but there are a few ways to make it better, these are my two favorite looting system to ensure everyone has a good chance of leaving with an upgrade.

first system:

you start out by doing main spec rolls and the person who wins the roll recieves one point. On the next roll for that spec if two people roll and one of those two people have a point and wins the roll, it will be passed to the person with no points and they will recieve a point too. loot is always passed to the person with the lowest amount of points regaurdless of what they rolled.

If noone rolls for main spec then you roll for off spec. wining an off spec item does not add a point to the person who won it.

For teir armor everyone gets to roll for main spec and points dont matter for this roll and you recieve no points for this roll

For BoE items (this is how my guild does it) we roll for mainspec and if no one rolls for it then the guild leader or one of the officers will deposite it in the guild bank so if anyone needs it for there main spec but wasnt there for that raid can still recieve that loot by asking the guild leader or an officer. If no one wants it for the main spec after a while it may be given to someone for there off spec otherwise it is sold and the money is deposited in the guild bank to help pay for repairs/gems/enchants ect.

second system:

Everyone in the raid gets 1 need roll. loot goes like this:
Main spec need roll>main spec open roll>off spec open roll

you can need roll durring the whole raid until win something using your need roll. you also dont have to use your need roll right away you can save it till one of the farther bosses. For example, some people like to save there need roll for kel or spahh in naxx and just roll on main spec open rolls to get gear from other previous bosses.

If you no one uses their need roll it goes to main spec open roll everyone who needs the item for their main spec can roll on open rolls even if you have used and won something with ur need roll

Teir gear is a main spec open roll and everyone who needs it rolls even if they have have used their need roll already and if you win it doesnt count as using your need roll.

for off spec it is a open roll so whoever needs it for their off spec can roll for the item and it doesnt count as using their need roll

for BoE items im not really sure what the guild i was running with did with them but i would use the same rules from the first system if your running as a guild. otherwise follow the rules for the second system but roll for AH rights instead of off spec

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Can I ask a serious question how in hell do you get that to function in a pug it would take all night to dish out the loot and some poor bastard has to track all that.

I thought MasterDave's idea of nominating spec was bad both because someone had to record who was rolling on what spec's and I thought some of the tanks and healers might balk at being outrolled by dps because lets face it a geared naxx tank/healer is only doing the whole run for one or two pieces of low drop rate loot of Saph/KT in all likelyhood. This was the bit MasterDave's system is unfair on and kind of overlooks 90% of tanking/healing drops will prob go to offspec because they don't need or want them, I know they do on my runs.

So my serious question is this something you are dreaming up or have you actually got this to function because you now also have to record who got what loot?

Most pug's people come, people go get kicked, DC whatever and someone is tracking all this???????

To be perfectly blunt I would probably bail if I got an invite to a pug like that because there is enough problems getting a pug thru a raid let alone run some complicated loot system and again to be blunt I am there for Saph/KT I really don't give a toss about the rest of loot.

Insahnity
07-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I agree with MasterDave. I have all roles (tank/heals/melee/ranged) amongst my many 80s, and all are dualspecced (even silly one like mage, etc.).

Traditionally, pre-dualspec, people would gear one spec, run a place until they are geared on that one spec and farm the dungeon for offspec gear. This works if you are running the with the same people all the time, as eventually all the tanks will get geared, allowing plate DPS to start getting tank gear, etc. But in a PUG, this doesn't work, because your main spots are likely to be changing (tanks/healers), meaning tank/heal gear will be denied as somebody mainspec will always get the loot before you. Which means you run the same raid over and over waiting for the 1% of gear left that you need while your dualspec gets left undergeared, and realistically your mainspec doesn't improve that much when you DO get that one piece left. And if you think that you should "Find a raid where you can tank", realize that there are 2 tank spots, 5 healer spots, and 18 DPS spots. Do the math of how often you find such spots in a raid, especially tank positions.

Even post-dualspec, things get complicated with DKs and feral druids, who are both tanks and DPS without changing spec, and believe me, druid bear gear IS different than cat gear, but most lootmasters can't spot the difference unless they have a feral themselves.

For those who say roll mainspec period in a pug, please extract your craniums from your anuses and stop running pugs, stick to guild only runs where it works. From a continuity perspective, even if your guild is not recruiting, people are not likely to come back to your raids (assuming they even stay) because you cannot see the disadvantage you are placing them in.

My favourite ways to deal with this issue:
-Declare mainspec before the run. And it stays that way, even if you switch roles several times during the raid.
-Rules like one loot per person per raid until everybody has loot are so common that most people accept it.
-Loot systems like SKG. What they use it for is their business, and while most pugs start at the bottom, the anticipated saving of rolls for end-raid bosses will ensure that pugged members will get a few pieces of gear.

Silveronfire
07-21-2009, 10:28 AM
insahnity, you are probably hitting the right chords here.

If it comes to it, just make sure that the group of people fits both the needed roles for the dungeon (i.e. two tanks, two-three heals, rest dps) and THEN make sure there is a limit on what people need. Lets face it. 70% of the time people need what they are there as. If they need something else, I guess that can be worked around. That being said I have no interest tanking in 10m Ulduar if there are 4 people needing on tank gear. And no priest would want to heal in a grp with 6/10 needing heal gear. I dont mind competition ( I often pass things to someone who needs it/coordinates with me certain things on their wishlist) but there are limits to that.

I guess I revise my original position, as long as you declare it and are willing to accept that you might not be liked for it, roll on the spec you choose.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 10:44 AM
2 Tanks??? Thats setup for fail from start but I guess if you only doing part clear it works. Tanking 4 adds on KT with them the size of football ovals because of pug dps and praying you dont get MC'ed .... no thanks you can have that.

Personally we take 3 tanks and the 3rd is usually the easiest spot to get for dual spec because thats a big advantage for bosses needing only 1 or 2 tanks.

Anyhow obviously you guys are organizing pugs completely differently and if it is working great.

I was merely interested because I could see serious geared raid tank/healers seeing this as a problem and guessing what you got was a bunch of average geared tanks and healers that ultimately trainwrecked after doing 1 or 2 wings which to me is what those loot rules are setting up. If your getting clears then hey its working don't change.

Silveronfire
07-21-2009, 10:52 AM
was a ten man reference. but thanks for your insight anyway =) I suppose I should have been more clear. obviously 3-4 tanks for a 25man.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 11:05 AM
NPS just trying to understand the logic not pick on anyone.

I think there is also an element of server age involved btw in raids I notice far fewer trainwreck raids on Khaz (old oceanic server) than or Cairne (newer US server).

On Khaz a naxx 25 is setup to clear and they will start on military wing often so you don't get saved to a fail raid. But I notice on Cairne they setup to hopefully clear and lets start with Arach qtr alot more common.

Silveronfire
07-21-2009, 11:19 AM
Oh yeah...for naxx I start raids on abom. then mil. then plague. I tell them arachnid is a reward for not failing at the coordination fights.

Patch not dying=me not saving to that raid.

uglybbtoo
07-22-2009, 08:18 PM
As an aside to the whole loot discussion I would like to show you the below list which is all the tank drops in naxx heroic. Also what got overshadowed in the whole roll by spec/roll by role discussion is the valorous token will be rolled by class so they are seperated at bottom.

As you can see the vast majority of loot a tank is going to be interested in is in Miltary qtr, Saph and KT.

Weapon
[Last Laugh] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40402) - (H) Naxxramas, Kel'Thuzad
[Broken Promise] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40345) - (H) Naxxramas, Four Horseman
 
Shield
[Hero's Surrender] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40266) - (H) Naxxramas, Patchwerk
[Wall of Terror] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40400) - (H) Naxxramas, Kel'Thuzad
 
Helm
[Helm of Vital Protection] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40328) - (H) Naxxramas, Gothik
[Platehelm of the Great Wyrm] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40366) - (H) Naxxramas, Sapphiron
 
Neckpiece
[Boundless Ambition] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40387) - (H) Naxxramas, Kel'Thuzad
 
Shoulders
[Pauldrons of Unnatural Death] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39704) - (H) Naxxramas, Anub'Rekhan
[Burdened Shoulderplates] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40334) - (H) Naxxramas, Gothik
 
Cloak
[Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40252) - (H) Naxxramas, Maexxna
[Shadow of the Ghoul] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40410) - (H) Naxxramas, Zone Drop
 
Chestpiece
[Chestguard of the Exhausted] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40279) - (H) Naxxramas, Grobbulus
[Breastplate of Tormented Rage] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40203) - (H) Naxxramas, Heigan
 
Wrist
[Bracers of the Unholy Knight] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40306) - (H) Naxxramas, Instructor Razuvious
[Bindings of the Hapless Prey] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39764) - (H) Naxxramas, Maexxna
 
Hands
[Callous-Hearted Gauntlets] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39726) - (H) Naxxramas, Grand Widow Faerlina
[Gauntlets of the Disobedient] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40188) - (H) Naxxramas, Noth the Plaguebringer
 
Waist
[Ablative Chitin Girdle] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39759) - (H) Naxxramas, Maexxna
 
Legs
[Greaves of Turbulence] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40240) - (H) Naxxramas, Loatheb
 
Feet
[Sabatons of Endurance] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40297) - (H) Naxxramas, Thaddius
[Inexorable Sabatons] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39717) - (H) Naxxramas, Anub'Rekha (BOE can be bought on AH)
 
Ring
[Sand-Worn Band] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40107) - (H) Naxxramas, Multiple Bosses
[Gatekeeper] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40370) - (H) Naxxramas, Sapphiron
 
Trinkets
[Rune of Repulsion] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40372) - (H) Naxxramas, Sapphiron

 

  VALOROUS TOKENS
Helm
[Valorous Redemption Faceguard] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40581) - (H) Naxxramas, Kel'thuzad
 
Shoulders
[Valorous Redemption Shoulderguards] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40584) - (H) Naxxramas, Loatheb
 
Chestpiece
[Valorous Redemption Breastplate] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40579) - (H) Naxxramas, Four Horseman
 
Legs
[Valorous Redemption Legguards] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40583) - (H) Naxxramas, Thaddius

Bountee
07-26-2009, 11:18 PM
While your system is nice....the title of the thread is regarding PUG Raids.
I did notice the website mentioned it being fair to pugs, but its not really practical to use an addon based system like that for a PUG.

Unless it is, feel free to elaborate if you think it would work for a PUG.


Your right Addon based systems dont work for PUG's which is why we built this one. No addon is required. The Loot master just registers and sets up the loot ladder. Raid members do not need to register they just go to the site and view the ladder, that way theey know where they sit all the time.
It was designed with PUG's in mind. The whole system runs on the web site.
Of course this system is much easier to use if you have 2 screens, hey but who doesnt :).

Have another look.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bountee (Warrior Tank: Riddle of Steel - Aman'Thul)
Guild: Riddle of Steel (http://www.riddleofsteel.org.au)
Loot Ladder System: The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silveronfire
07-27-2009, 06:30 AM
I looked at your website again, I retract my comments about it being addon based (its obviously not) I just am hesitant to ask people in a PUG to do anything more than play the game well (dont think most of them will be up to viewing a website) explaining that system to 9 or 24 others might just complicate the process even more.

Had yet another fun pug experience last night:

This time the raid leader for a 25 naxx decided that the loot system would be need based. He would have you link your currently equipped item in slot and then compare them to decide who had the highest priority on each drop. Anything that no one wanted for mainspec would become offspec greed roll based.

This was cool, except that it meant those of us looking for just "x" or just "Y" lost them when another member linked a blue in slot.

oh and he did not know what all the classes used or the relative ilvls of items. For example he awarded a hunter 25 man bracers to replace his ulduar piece when the other hunter (who had not won anything) linked his heroic 5-man bracers.

Maybe this system works, but only if the raid leader is the kind of guy who is both honest and knows how ALL the classes work in current content.


Just wanted to share that, seems like yet another awkward and unwieldy system.

Prexie
08-07-2009, 03:43 PM
Want to know how I make successful Naxx25 pugs in whatever week I choose?
(This is easier assuming you have a number of guild alts or friends on a server wanting to run. You can start from scratch though) (Caveat: I do this on Rexxar H and Kilrogg H, med to high pop servers. I don't know what the luck would be like on smaller servers)

1. Start a thread on the public forums with a timeframe for your pug raid, your qualifications to lead and what your rules are. A week ahead of time helps tons.
My rules are typically:
- If you aren't on at posted time you forfeit your spot.
- You post your potential raid specs in the thread but also list your desired Loot spec. In the raid I use a Gentlemen's system with weapon, tier and misc armor being seperate (this has varied). I keep a trusty yellowpad and pen next to my keyboard and record few letters of a name and mark a notch in the appropriate column. Adds 5 seconds to a piece.
(I will very rarely depending on guild involvement save Saph/KT priority to guildies. It has happened and players tend to get 2-4 pieces earlier since they weren't needed. Upgrades are upgrades.)

- I schedule two afks through the run (one after military/abom, one before Saph). That's it. If you go afk unexpectedly or show obvious consistent alt-tabbing, you're gone. We'll 24 it til someone can get pulled in.

- Everyone but me (LM) is pulling next trash. Stand by boss and you won't win a roll.

- Vent is required. People can chat but bosses...clear it.

- Don't insist on a different strat or rule. I'm God, Jah, Allah, your mother and father in this PUG. We aren't running around Thaddius.

2. Get online with your list and publish a game calendar for it. Keep in contact with sign ups. It makes them know you're serious.

3. Stick to your guns. Invite who you were able to get posted. Start your search for fillers if needed (guildies, armory checking whispers). You want to stick to your scheduled time.

4. /Friend the competent people. Tell the raid on vent that you'll be doing this again and tell them to look for the post on the forums. You'll get more posts if it was a solid run. Asking for feedback can be a mixed bag but gives people more of a connection.

If you build it, they will come. I used to schedule these all the time on off-nights and the amount of skilled alts and short-of-luck players that came out was steady. I haven't had one of my clears take more than 3 hours. Ever.

Establish yourself and it can make your pug experience stop from ending at Thaddius and actually consistently clear the place. Your rules could vary but you want to emphasize efficiency at all times. Uld geared like me or not, it works.