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View Full Version : 4 deaths on one boss kill. What's up?



thedrawrf
07-07-2009, 11:19 PM
Hey all,

I come here tonight after a super frustrating night of raiding, so please bear with me.
First off, let's lay down my stats, raid buffed: 45 k hp, 28k armor, about 60% avoidance, 26 expertise, 6% hit.

Tonight, it was my turn to tank the cat lady. We engage her, and I'm dead about 20 seconds later. Not a huge deal, I can handle it. Get Rezzed, buffed. Dead again, about another 20-30 seconds later.

We wipe.

"Lets try this again" speech, we pull. I die on the pull. I get rezzed again, and buffed, and take back the boss, making sure to announce that I'll need to be healed. And I die again.

I went a bit berzerk at this point, and though I wish I had been more refined about my language, I begin to go through the combat log and see what was going on. The cat lady tends to mellee me for about 18-20k, with ocasional kitty cat adds doing the bleed effect, ect.

Here's a sample of the healing I recieved while tanking, in round numbers:

TD (myself) takes 18.5k dmg
TD is healed for 6k from (a druid)
TD is hit for 20k dmg
TD is healed for 8 k from a pally (FoL)
TD dodges
TD is healed for 7k from a druid
TD is hit for 20k damage
TD parries
TD is hit for 18 k dmg
TD (dies)

No heals, that I saw, for even 10 thousand, let alone over it.

Keep in mind that various cooldowns were also used during the fight, but I don't know when or in what order.

After pointing this out, I was throughly humiliated in front of the guild, and told to stop blaming the healers. I was also informed that i had been parry gibbed during the fight, and that was what had killed me, however, my own records don't show that to be the case.

Now, the heart of the issue: What can I do to solve this problem? Is it reasonable to say that a main tank should not rely on druid healing? Is there something about this fight that I am missing? Should my healers be healing for larger ammounts? keep in mind that we are all kitted out in Ulduar 25 gear, and the problem of me dying on bosses is a long standing one.

Any help would be appreciated, as I feel pretty crushed after tonight.

kroxix
07-08-2009, 12:04 AM
Druids are not the best tank healers, imo. I mean druids provide a cushion for your other healers (namely holy paladins) to get their holy lights off...that should be healing you for 10k+.

Based on your log and comparing it to the log I have of my guild's Cat Lady fight last week...her Melee was averaging around 13k, 21k being the highest, and 3.3k being the lowest. So your numbers don't seem too crazy. It's possible you just received some bad RNG (which is lame). Is the pull happening correctly? Is there any noticeable damage from the sentries or the defender that you can see? The only other thing I can think of is the sentries possibly pouncing you and you getting insta gibbed. Either way, it doesn't seem like you got good enough heals to last through the damage you were receiving...the best geared tank can only live for so long - eventually they'll need a heal or they'll die (I feel sort of stupid writing this, but yea...it's true).

Are you the only warrior tank in your guild? I'm a pretty geared out for a protection warrior and my healers still tell me that they feel like I'm getting hit by a truck. The thing is, they only have 2 equally geared druids to compare me to. I also have had a history of getting one or two shot by certain bosses...or it feeling like I'm taking incredibly more amounts of damage than my druid counterparts. Since I've joined the guild, everyone has learned to work with a Warrior Tank (specifically the healers)...since having one is nice for the raid...even if people are having to put a little bit more effort to make it work. Basically, I am saying you were right to get angry with your healers for letting you drop like that. Honestly...not one heal over 10k on the main tank? that's a little ridiculous, imo.

A bit of advice...if you're running recount - check your death. If it's worth linking in raid chat, then link it. I know after almost every wipe my guild encounters, we link the tank's death (where it makes sense to, anyway). Sometimes it's something stupid like RNG, sometimes it's me not getting a big heal for 3+ seconds (hilarious story with a priest and renew...I'll spare you all though)...it's a good report that allows the entire raid to see what's going on in actual numbers/charts.

Lga45
07-08-2009, 12:41 AM
I agree that its perfectly possible to work around having a warrior tank her, but it may require more actual work from your healers than they're used to with other tanks. The amount of healing just looks low. I'm sure she hits me on my druid for similar amounts too. I dont know how much more damage warriors take compared to druids but plenty of people say warriors make the best tank for crazy cat lady, for what its worth.

Martie
07-08-2009, 06:19 AM
We commonly have a warrior on the cat lady, but it sounds to me like there is something else going wrong there.

20k hits shouldn't be unhealable by any means, but tanking the cats for any prolongued period of time is troublesome to say the least.

That first pull sounds like you got pounced, or you failed to properly split the adds.
(Is this 10man or 25man, by the way?)

If your log is correct, I think your healers were slacking. Tell them to do better. :)

orcstar
07-08-2009, 06:30 AM
Healers get silenced on this fight when the defender is up. So you could be looking at prolonged periods of no healing. If you can, help your healers there.

geros
07-08-2009, 06:54 AM
Even if heals are lacking... it's generally not a fantastic idea to place personal blame or ever get heated about it directly at healers. It's really hard to solve the problem of tank deaths that way. Generally speaking, healers want to heal you less rather than more when you yell at them.

We always run a warrior tanking the cat lady, and it's usually an OT. We found the best way to handle the sentinels is to have me blow all CD's in either bear or warrior form and tank all of them grouped up. Your mileage may vary on the start of the fight strat. If we go on auto pilot and don't assign very specific healing to the Cat Lady tank, he'll end up getting gibbed at some point in the fight.

Spattznatt
07-08-2009, 06:59 AM
I agree that its perfectly possible to work around having a warrior tank her....

Hmmm we have always preferred a warrior tank for her because our berzerker and shield bash abilities refresh quicker than her terrifying screech and sentinel blast sequence. Makes the encounter easier for the rest of the raid. If I'm low on health I'll also pop a cool-down knowing that I'm not going to get heals for a few seconds during the fear.

Adding time-stamps to the log would be really useful in understanding what's going on.

Are the healers spending too much time dealing with raid damage? Are the mele standing behind her to minimize parries and then running in front of her to take their share of the sonic screech (may not be an issue depending on raid makeup)? If you're dying while the adds are still up it may be that the healers are focused on the OTs. Start the fight by popping that CD?

Fetzie
07-08-2009, 07:04 AM
When we do that fight ALL tanks use shield wall at the pull because:

1. the cats do very good damage
2. the healers need to heal the off tanks
3. the MT might get a pounce if the MD is slow

The only reason our tanks die to auri is if the defender decides to jump around and stun the MT exactly when a hit is about to land so the stun is still up when the next hit comes 2 seconds later. Two back to back hits + kitty damage is often enough to kill our tank within seconds, especially if the healers are silenced/stunned at the time.

Liar
07-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Even if heals are lacking... it's generally not a fantastic idea to place personal blame or ever get heated about it directly at healers. It's really hard to solve the problem of tank deaths that way. Generally speaking, healers want to heal you less rather than more when you yell at them.


Sure, noone likes to get yelled at but it's not like dying 4 times on a boss as easy as Auriya is fun for the tank either.

My tip: Assign healers. Do it for every boss, do it while you learn it and even while you farm it. Don't get complacent because that is what will kill you.

Then download a good addon to check your combat log with (I use Eaves Drop for general purposes and Grim Reaper for a more indepth analysis since it breaks down damage taken and healing done in milliseconds and shows your health % at all times. Also you can check everyone else's death with it. In short, I recommend it).
If you keep dying now, check your log. If it it's lack of healing and you got healers assigned, ask what went wrong. Generally they will tell you what the problem was and you can go from there.

Doesn't get easier than that.

Ynih_Yllems
07-08-2009, 08:56 AM
This is the classic rage that goes way back to when I was tanking in vanilla Everquest :P As a tank, if you're holding agro, and positioning properly and yet dieing on farm content it is VERY frustrating.

The odd thing about your story is, it's almost identical to what happened to us last night. We wiped 5 or 6 times on her too. We had some bad luck on the defender dieing at just the wrong time, a resisted taunt on the pull, etc. May have been some of that same stuff happening to you. Defender dieing right as she fears? Leaves you pondering, "Do I stand in the puddle to interupt? or do I run and watch half the raid get pwn'd?" Fortunately for me last night I got to try both methods, and miraculously they both worked out just as I had predicted :P I died when I stayed in to interupt (we wiped shortly thereafter). Second time, I backed outa the puddle and half the raid died to her sonic blast (if that's the right ability that I'm thinking of... the one right after the fear).

Moral of the story, things happen like this until you're way overgeared for the events and can survive without heals for a while or whatever, and healers, as long as I have been playing MMoRPG's (almost 10 years now)have been sensitive when called out for underperformance. So, be nice to your healers and hopefully they'll be nice to you :)

geros
07-08-2009, 09:50 AM
Sorry to have sidetracked the convo with a short be nice to healers rant. I don't think anyone will ever debate that dying because a healer miss repeatedly is frustrating. The Flying Spaghetti Monster invented the push to talk button so that you may use all the profanity you want in private but can share calm and profanity-free information regarding your death to the rest of the raid.

Grim Reaper is a really helpful addon in determining your cause of death. It also provides a fairly defined and measurable way in which you died. If the healers are carrying combat logs with timestamps as well, they can also share back times in which they all might have been silenced and unable to do something. It's a good way to determine bad luck/healer miss. It's a lot more quantifiable than "I had like 6 seconds with my health at 40%" and "you got parry gibbed or something".

thedrawrf
07-08-2009, 07:52 PM
Downloaded Recount today. I'll make sure to post some updates concerning the "death report" feature, and what I find out.

junkilo
07-09-2009, 11:38 AM
45k raidbuffed and they blamed a parry gib? tell those nutjobs to heal harder. you are failing if you arent chaining CDs on the pull till the cats are down.

Squirrelnut
07-09-2009, 03:43 PM
If talented/glyphed for cooldowns go ahead and throw up em up on the pull, if you have 45k health I expect u have some decent trinkets you can mix in every minute with your Shield Wall/Last Stand/Regen to help the healers out when things get tough or during fears.

I have similar HP and never really have any problems on that fight, just make sure you keep demo shout and thunderclap up at all times. If your death isn't on the pull, you have TC and Demo Shout up and use talented cooldowns throughout the fight to help healers out then I would think it is simply a straight up healer problem unless you happen to stand in the void zone thing or your group doesn't stack up effeciently lol.