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View Full Version : New Lvl 80 Having problems w/ threat in heroics



joep180
06-30-2009, 12:33 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm a new user and I've frequently read TankSpot to gain insight on the mechanics of warrior tanking and I've found that it helped a lot. I switched to Prot/Arms at lvl. 70 after being Fury up to that point. While I've occasionally switched between Arms and Fury, I've kept Protection as my main spec and have worked to improve my skills and gear for it.

I recently hit lvl. 80 and I am just entering the world of tanking heroics. I had no major problems tanking any of the normal instances up to 80, but now that I am doing heroics I am finding that I am having a difficult time holding threat. It may be that since I am just starting heroics and do not have the heroic gear The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alleria&n=Erode) it is difficult holding threat over overgeared dps, but I am wondering if it could be my rotation or just my way of going about setting up pulls and such. I also am not sure if I have my spec set up right or any number of things, due to the fact that it was difficult to find a warrior tank who could take the time to answer all my questions. The main tank in my guild as well as other members were a big help but they weren't always there or able to answer my questions.

My rotation for Single targets is: Taunt, Charge, Devestate, Shield Slam, Revenge and then repeat.
My rotation for Multiple target is: Taunt one target in the group to get the whole mobs attention, Charge, Thunder clap, Shockwave, Demoralizing Shot, then depending on the situation I either continue to tab between them using the single threat abilites while proccing thunder clap and shockwave when they come off of CD or I tab between the targets and use Sunder Armor w/ the glyph that hits two at a time while using SW and TC as they come up.

For targets that aren't stationary or I'm not able to mark and order quickly, such as the mobs out of H VH, I tell the DPS to let me get initial aggro and then I will put a Skull up to show which target I want them to hit, so it makes it easier to keep agro on the rest, but it also tells them "I have good aggro, go ahead and dps." Otherwise I just mark in the order I want them to take dps w/ multiple symbols.

I also find out who has highest threat right away and immediately procede to put Vigilance on them to help offset their threat.

Even with all these things I am unable to hold my own and keep threat which has resulted in many losses of aggro and frantic Taunts, Challenging Shouts, and Mocking Blows, to get them back which makes things a lot more stressful and tense between the group.

Any suggestions on gear, rotation, talents, glyphs, or just how to set up the group would be greatly appreciated and accepted.

Thanks,

Erode

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Taunt is not a regular part of any threat rotation nor is Demoralizing Shout. Taunt is temporary and the threat from DS is miniscule. You're wasting precious early GCDs by using these before you have initial aggro.

Mark Skull ahead of time. Charge that target and Shield Slam it. Thunderclap to get everyone else's attention then cluster the mobs and Shockwave them. Then begin a cycle of Revenge, Shield Slam, Devestate, Cleave and Thunderclap. Stop Cleaving if only two targets remain.

Wodiman
06-30-2009, 12:40 PM
Well for single targets you should always shield slam first, then revenge then continue on to devistate, heroic strike, or watch sword and board procs. Also your expertise is a little low. Try to get it around 26 without sacrificing too much avoidance and stamina. Also about 200 more hit would increase your threat tremendously.

joep180
06-30-2009, 12:42 PM
When you say begin cycle I am assuming you mean tab between the whole mob. Is shield slam on the skulled target and then cycling enough to keep threat on it? I have Glyphs of Blocking, Devestate, and Sunder Armor, is Cleave only really effective if you have Glyph of Cleave?

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Just inspected your talents. They are not ideal for threat by any means. In fact, they're kind of bad in general but I'll try to be nice about it. :)

Drop 3 points from Cruelty and put them into Armored to the Teeth.

Drop Improved Bloodrage entirely.
Drop 3 points from Shield Specialization.
Drop Improved Spell Reflection entirely.
Drop Puncture entirely.

Put those 10 talent points into:
Improved Heroic Strike
Improved Charge
Deep Wounds
Impale


With these talent changes, you should find your threat through the roof. Deep Wounds is essential for AoE tanking because all of your abilities that can hit multiple targets critically (Thunderclap, Shockwave, Damage Shield) will now apply a stacking DoT as well which as you can imagine helps a lot with threat.

Coupled with the fact that you will have more initial rage from Charge and you can HS more often, you should be in much better shape after this respec.

Good luck!

joep180
06-30-2009, 12:47 PM
Also, I'm sorry for sounding ignorant, but regarding avoidance, is that just chunking dodge, parry, and block together? And I assume hit is hit rating, correct?

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 12:49 PM
When you say begin cycle I am assuming you mean tab between the whole mob. Is shield slam on the skulled target and then cycling enough to keep threat on it? I have Glyphs of Blocking, Devestate, and Sunder Armor, is Cleave only really effective if you have Glyph of Cleave?

Yes, by "cycle" I mean moving through available targets and shield slamming and revenging liberally.

Cleave is useful even without the glyph. It does slightly less threat than Heroic Strike, but on 3 targets so your total threat gain is net greater with Cleave than HS in group situations.

The initial shield slam on skull should be enough to give you time to build a little threat on the other 2-4 targets but you do have to be cognizant of the fact that skull is your primary target. Try to switch back to it often and shield slam.

One way in which Taunt can be useful (though not for threat) is if skull is at 20-30% health and you are about to lose aggro, just Taunt instead of trying to build threat. By the time Taunt wears off, the target will be dead anyway. This way, you can taunt Skull at like 30% health, and then focus entirely on building threat on the other targets while your DPS finish off skull for you.

joep180
06-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Thank you very much for the help with specs as well as rotation, I see that what I was doing in regards to rotation was pretty messed up. The trick for taunt sounds very useful as well, thank you! In regards to glyphs, would it be better to replace one of the glyphs I currently have w/ cleave?

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Also, I'm sorry for sounding ignorant, but regarding avoidance, is that just chunking dodge, parry, and block together? And I assume hit is hit rating, correct?

Avoidance is the total of your chance to Dodge, Parry and be Missed.

Block is Mitigation, not avoidance, as you still take the bulk of the damage when you successfully block (i.e., you don't 'avoid' it all).

Think of Block more like an extension of Armor. It absorbs a portion of incoming damage instead of preventing it altogether.

joep180
06-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Is there something that you can add to increase you chance of being missed? I know you can add to dodge and parry, but there is there something specific for being missed?

Ewanar
06-30-2009, 01:05 PM
Is there something that you can add to increase you chance of being missed? I know you can add to dodge and parry, but there is there something specific for being missed?

I always hear guildies spewing about defense. But for all I know Miss is a static 5%.

If and when you have the rage, use heroic strike. If you find you lack rage. Look at you glyphs, with devastate glyph you are using double the rage (I believe, that's how it used to work), and switch them for a glyph of revenge, and if need be a glyph of Vig.

Get your targets to focus fire and by god fix your talents.

15/5/51

Always always always armored to the teeth... And get Uncrittable!

joep180
06-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Alright, thank you very much

joep180
06-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Funny thing about my spec, my guild's main tank who is fully Naxx geared has that spec and everyone keeps on raving about it, guess it's not it's all cracked up to be =P

joep180
06-30-2009, 01:25 PM
I am usually low on rage, and when you say I should switch out glyph of devestate w/ others makles it sound like its not that great. I thought that being able to put out two sunders mean 2x the threat. Has that changed or is devestate really not all that great?

Grombrindal
06-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Higher defense increases miss chance. Miss chance will go up by the same amount as your dodge/block/parry if I'm not mistaken.

Glyph of devastate does not use double rage, at least it didn't when I had it. Used to love the ability to stack sunders so much quicker...

I don't really care for revenge glyph except in the UA spec of course. If you're looking for aoe threat cleave glyph is pretty awesome for that. For threat in general Vigilence glyph is nice too.

Just my .02 I guess.

Grom

joep180
06-30-2009, 01:36 PM
Is the 15/5/51 spec also able to hold agro on single threat targets like bosses?

Garshek
06-30-2009, 01:48 PM
I know someone already mentioned it but, GET UNCRITTABLE! You need 5 more def to become uncrittable in heroics (535) and 10 for raids (540). A fast way to do that is to slap 1-2 defense chants on some of your stuff. Another quick and easy upgrade is to get the tanking cloak from Wyrmrest Accord. It's pretty good for a blue and available at honored, so it's VERY easy to get. Those things will help you live, which in turn helps you make more threat :D

Someone also mentioned changing your spec, that's a quick and easy one to do. They mentioned some great changes, I'd go ahead and work on that. Deep wounds ticking away will help keep threat going!

Also, if you see your threat start slipping on a target a quick Conc. Blow followed by a Shield Slam is usually enough to get them back onto you. Do you have any tanking macros set up? I have one that combines Revenge and Cleave (I have cleave glyph) into 1 button, so in AoE pulls I can just keep spamming that when SS isn't on CD to keep my threat going around. I'd drop Glyph of Blocking and pick up either the one for Cleave or the one for a reduced CD on Shockwave.

Oh, lastly! When you're doing a group pull...

Target 1 mob and do a heroic throw then charge a DIFFERENT mob. Heroic Throw has a bit of aggro attached to it so it's a nice way to pick up a few extra seconds of hate.

Hope that helps a bit!

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 03:39 PM
I always hear guildies spewing about defense. But for all I know Miss is a static 5%.

That stuff your guildies are "spewing?" It's called knowledge. Try to soak some up next time it gets on you.

Every point of DR gives you 0.04% additional chance to be Missed by a boss. Just another reason it is hands-down the best Warrior tanking stat in the game. Next time you hear someone talking about how they want to "get rid of" their Repelling Charge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292) scratch a bit and ask them why. You will usually find a complete lack of understanding of DR just below the surface.

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 03:42 PM
Every point of DR gives you 0.04% additional chance to be missed/dodged/parried (pre-dr) by a boss for .12% additional avoidance.

Fixed :). It just adds to what kerchunk was saying.

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 03:43 PM
Is the 15/5/51 spec also able to hold agro on single threat targets like bosses?

The only spec better for threat period is one including Unstable Affliction, and that's not really raid-viable. In short, yes.

The spec you have isn't terrible, but it's making huge sacrifices in threat for very little gains in terms of survivability. Your guild's main tank should come read this thread. =)

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 03:45 PM
The only spec better for threat period is one including Unstable Affliction, and that's not really raid-viable. In short, yes.

I think Kerchunk is a warlock in disguise.... But he meant Unrelenting Assault.

Kerchunk
06-30-2009, 03:46 PM
I think Kerchunk is a warlock in disguise.... But he meant Unrelenting Assault.

el oh el

joep180
06-30-2009, 07:51 PM
Thank you very much for all your help, I'm gonna go ahead and work on spec, pulls, glyphs, and stats. I was about ready to give up tanking the heroics and just dps them. I appreciate all the help. Any other advice or tricks would be greatly appeciated and used. :)

Ewanar
06-30-2009, 11:32 PM
Thank you very much for all your help, I'm gonna go ahead and work on spec, pulls, glyphs, and stats. I was about ready to give up tanking the heroics and just dps them. I appreciate all the help. Any other advice or tricks would be greatly appeciated and used. :)

Stick with it and tank more. With practice you learn more, and will become better. Don't get discouraged with load bursting dps in heroics or early 10 mans. It happens and you can't let it get you off your game.

Once you got the gear and the spec down; just stick to your mental game and you got it.

Daggus
07-01-2009, 12:10 AM
So to summarise based on your armory.
Get your defense up to 535.
Spec into deep wounds to be doing more damage and more TPS.

Your rotation should start: Heroic Throw, Charge, Thunderclap, Shockwave, Cleave, Thunderclap, tab and Sunder hitting cleave and Thunderclap when you can.

Single mob is just 2344 but hitting the procs when you need to ( SS > Revenge > Devestate).

People will tell you your HP is too low for heroics. In some ways it is especially if you are not def capped (535) for heroics.

Grind wyrmrest rep for the chest and cloak, buy the combat shotgun, titansteel treads and the JC ring and gem it and you should have most of the stuff you need. Other tanking drops you will get from heroics but mainly emblems and then you can move on to naxx :)

Sometimes you may need to switch vigilance mid fight if two of your group are looking to out threat you - not ideal but sometimes necessary.

Hope that helps!

Doormat
07-01-2009, 12:33 AM
I'll add a little since I also recently hit heroics.

Your #1 goal will be to get Wyrmrest accord reputation. At honored you get their cloak and at revered the chest and boots (all are upgrades to you).

For single targets:
Charge, while charging throw on shield block, Shield Slam, Revenge (should be up because of shield block).

After this I should have a sizable threat lead and will then tclap and demo shout to reduce the damage. After this I usually operate off of the single target threat priority rotation but sometimes (on higher hp mobs/bosses) I will rush to put up 5 sunders.

For multiple targets:
I like to charge the furthest monster in a pack because it allows me to thunderclap mid-charge to hit them all, then I simply move past the furthest mob and turn around and shockwave them all. I throw on demo shout to reduce damage and then shield slam the one I marked as the primary dps target. As soon as the stun wears off I throw up shield block and start spreading around shield slams and revenges and cleave if I have the spare rage.

joep180
07-01-2009, 06:35 AM
Thanks again for everything! All this stuff will really help.
Few other questions:
1.) I know different ideas for glyphs have been thrown up in the air, but what would really be the best? Cleaving, Vigilance, and Lower CD on SW? Or should i keep one of the ones I have- Blocking, Devestate, and Sunder Armor, and just switch out 1 or 2?
2.)Also, are there any macros that can ease up the rotation process or just help to move things along?
3.)What are the best gems(Meta and otherwise) and enchants to use on gear(Especially wep. and shield)?
4.)Is it possible for anyone to link a picture of how they set up their action bars, mine are full up and I can't find any good setup that puts things in their place w/out seperating things I need.
5.)Are there any good tanking add ons?
6.)Finally, Daggus, what do you mean by single mob is 2344, is that just order of rotation?

Thanks again, I kinda thought of all these things as I slept =P

Ewanar
07-01-2009, 05:50 PM
Thanks again for everything! All this stuff will really help.
Few other questions:
1.) I know different ideas for glyphs have been thrown up in the air, but what would really be the best? Cleaving, Vigilance, and Lower CD on SW? Or should i keep one of the ones I have- Blocking, Devestate, and Sunder Armor, and just switch out 1 or 2?
2.)Also, are there any macros that can ease up the rotation process or just help to move things along?
3.)What are the best gems(Meta and otherwise) and enchants to use on gear(Especially wep. and shield)?
4.)Is it possible for anyone to link a picture of how they set up their action bars, mine are full up and I can't find any good setup that puts things in their place w/out seperating things I need.
5.)Are there any good tanking add ons?
6.)Finally, Daggus, what do you mean by single mob is 2344, is that just order of rotation?

Thanks again, I kinda thought of all these things as I slept =P


My own opinion / choices, what I did, and it may differ from others, but at least we get some customization!

1. Glyph of Blocking - Increses SS damage and amount blocked ( dmg through block value)
Glyph of Vig - More threat from the high dpers
Glyph of Revenge - I like it, free heroic strikes
2. Personally I don't use too many macros,
I do use a /cast shield block, / cast Shield Slam, just for the ease of use, though it depends on situation, and on cool downs yata yata.
/focus /cast intervene
other than that I just mash away!
3. Once you got the defense up there, you can look at the Stam + armor value Meta
Ciderhelm's guide to 540
4. Pic I will take one
5. Bartender for action bars, deadlybossmods or bigwigs, omen threat meter, Grid for raid frames, quartz cast / swing timer, xperl,
6. if you look at the standard action bars, 1 is your attack command, 2 would be the next 3, and so on... Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate. The old TBC rotation :P so 2344 repeat

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/3901/1_WoWScrnShot_070309_123933.jpg