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Ciderhelm
06-29-2009, 12:23 AM
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http://www.tankspot.com/forums/images/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Though we had mentioned Hodir as one of the first hard modes any guild should work on, the recent Ulduar instances make both Flame Leviathan and XT-002 idealy first hard modes to work on for guilds. Hodir would ideally come immediately after these two, followed by Thorim, Steelbreaker and on.

Raistlin212
06-29-2009, 12:59 AM
Thanks for updating with the side tanking strat. You guys have became such a default for raid strategies, I had to argue hard to get my guild to try moving him off the steps.

Ciderhelm
06-29-2009, 01:09 AM
Donor download is up!

Fayre
06-29-2009, 03:28 AM
You mention tantrum being fairly harsh on the healers, but of course the DPS requirements for burning through the heart are fairly tight. Would you recommend dropping healers to meet the DPS required?

Nidhoggr
06-29-2009, 03:55 AM
How many healers do you recommend ? Were tried it only once but without bloodlust in the hearthphase and unfortunatly we had bad support on that night, so we just killed him the normal way.

And another question: What do you do with the huge robots spawning through hearthphase ? Nuke them down or tank them through ?

Ludiaro
06-29-2009, 06:37 AM
From my experience(didn't kill in 25man, only 10man) this is more of a survivability fight than a dps race, so you shouldn't bring less healers, maybe even bring an extra 1-2 along with the raid instead of the normal number of tanks since it not a tank fight, even if he has an enrage timer it's not that hard since it is huge, worry about not letting the adds/spawns alive(prior: adds-->boss). With full procs and BL you shouldn't have trouble dpsing the hearth since you should have solid geared dps. Yeah BL as mentioned in this movie should and must be pooped on the hearth, it's very hard to dps all that health in the given timer. When the robots spawn (both bomb-bots and the big ones) should be killed immediately with the bigger ones being tanked while you do so. Don't bother with the bots that heal since he is at his full health again with the destruction of his hearth, priority should be the bots mentioned and the light bomb spawns. VERY careful with the positioning of the voids! Healers should spread to get range to most of the raid if someone gets to far away.
This is one of my favorite Hard modes, specially cause it isn't mainly a burn rush/dps race. It's more of a constructive fight.

Ciderhelm
06-29-2009, 06:41 AM
How many healers do you recommend ? Were tried it only once but without bloodlust in the hearthphase and unfortunatly we had bad support on that night, so we just killed him the normal way.

And another question: What do you do with the huge robots spawning through hearthphase ? Nuke them down or tank them through ?
Prior to the recent nerf you couldn't afford many healers. After it, you should be able to support 6 or 7 as well as a second tank.

Use Heroism on the heart phase if you're behind.

When we're doing XT-002, I keep an eye on his health percentages at the 6, 4, and 2 minute marks. As long as they're about 75%, 50%, and 25% respectively, we're going to be fine.

Brownbear
06-29-2009, 08:19 AM
whats min dps everyone needs to kill the heart?

and at 2:21 right after lore explains where to move with light bombs and gravity bombs i like how some one runs the wrong way made me laugh a little

Myrcella
06-29-2009, 09:28 AM
whats min dps everyone needs to kill the heart?

Well, they said the heart has 7.2 million hp, and you have 30 seconds. Assuming everyone immediately starts DPS on the heart, you need a raid-wide 240,000 DPS. It will probably take a couple seconds for everyone to get started, so bump that up a little.

Edit: Oh, but the Heart takes double damage, right? So, 120k DPS otherwise.

tripp6sic6
06-29-2009, 09:50 AM
I was avoiding the side strat because I had heard that it was a glitch and didn't want to get used to it and have to relearn the fight. Is it intended?

Splug
06-29-2009, 09:51 AM
How many healers do you recommend ? Were tried it only once but without bloodlust in the hearthphase and unfortunatly we had bad support on that night, so we just killed him the normal way.

And another question: What do you do with the huge robots spawning through hearthphase ? Nuke them down or tank them through ?Previously, running with more than 5 healers would mean a post-berserk kill was more likely than a pre-berserk finish. With the reduced spark spawns and the ability to tank them close enough to melee to benefit from collateral splash damage, it's no longer a major issue and a sixth healer will net a significant increase in stability.

The pummellers do have an AE trample, and now that the life sparks don't cleave it's worth tanking them in the raid. You should lose less damage turning and burning the pummellers than you would either dedicating an offtank to sit with them in a corner, having an offtank handle sparks away from the melee splash damage, or bringing an extra healer to compensate for the trample damage. This also means you can ignore the stray scrap bots walking toward XT, since he'll be full health and damage on him will be minimal while the pummellers are finished off. However once the pummellers are down, it is worthwhile to kill any stray scrap bots. You should have about 15-25 seconds to kill the pummellers before the first spark spawns. Occasionally, you will only have one pummeller if heart damage is high enough to cut the phase short. Especially with the last few seconds of bloodlust still active, finishing the pummellers in that timeframe should not be a problem.

-Splug

Lore
06-29-2009, 09:55 AM
I was avoiding the side strat because I had heard that it was a glitch and didn't want to get used to it and have to relearn the fight. Is it intended?

It seems intended, since it seems like the sort of thing they'd have to add in on purpose. Either way, tanking him in the middle doesn't make the fight significantly more difficult since the recent hotfixes.

Splug
06-29-2009, 09:57 AM
I was avoiding the side strat because I had heard that it was a glitch and didn't want to get used to it and have to relearn the fight. Is it intended?I doubt it gets removed, but I also don't see a significant benefit to it. If you pull damage off XT to bring down pummellers, having him eat several scrap bots while at full health isn't detrimental anyway. The only convenience points are the easier pummeller pickup, and not having boom bots walk in behind the tank. As to whether it's intended is debatable, and it may help simplify things a bit, but it's a very minor part of the strategy for hard mode due to the shifted focus of the encounter.

Also, nice work on the video Lore.

-Splug

Cookie
06-29-2009, 10:08 AM
Previously, running with more than 5 healers would mean a post-berserk kill was more likely than a pre-berserk finish. With the reduced spark spawns and the ability to tank them close enough to melee to benefit from collateral splash damage, it's no longer a major issue and a sixth healer will net a significant increase in stability.
Our very first kill, which was before the faceroll nerf, was done with 2 tanks/6 healers and completed before the enrage hit. I haven't watched Cider's video yet, but we used a strat which maximised dps time- the spots people moved to for light bombs was always within dps range, even for melee. So imo, if you had trouble with fitting in a 2nd tank or 6th healer, it's probably a case of bad positioning/bad playing/bad gear or a combination of them.

But after the nerfs, he has become extremely easy compared to before, and doable with less healers since he doesn't do as much damage anymore.

mistersix
06-29-2009, 01:17 PM
It seems intended, since it seems like the sort of thing they'd have to add in on purpose. Either way, tanking him in the middle doesn't make the fight significantly more difficult since the recent hotfixes.

It means adds that do spawn only spawn from the far piles.

Zuvassin
06-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Quick question, My guild has tried stacking together just like you did in the video in 10man, however it seemed that if a Light Bomb hit either group and then he tantrumed it was impossible to avoid taking insane ammount of damage.

Is it feasible to spread the ranged out in a half circle and have them step backwards if they get gravity bomb and stand in the center of the half circle where the off tank can pick up light bombs? I didnt see it happen in your video, but I've found it can be a "unlucky" circumstance and was trying to avoid it. If its unneccesary maybe we are just doing something wrong :)

Ciderhelm
06-29-2009, 04:58 PM
Quick question, My guild has tried stacking together just like you did in the video in 10man, however it seemed that if a Light Bomb hit either group and then he tantrumed it was impossible to avoid taking insane ammount of damage.

Is it feasible to spread the ranged out in a half circle and have them step backwards if they get gravity bomb and stand in the center of the half circle where the off tank can pick up light bombs? I didnt see it happen in your video, but I've found it can be a "unlucky" circumstance and was trying to avoid it. If its unneccesary maybe we are just doing something wrong :)
A couple things.

1. People probably aren't moving fast enough if Light Bomb is hitting your raid for enough to have a serious impact on healing (especially during a tantrum, when new Light Bombs cannot be formed).

2. Your strategy idea makes a lot of sense. Only thing I'd change to it is making sure melee have somewhere to the sides they can run to drop gravity bombs.

Tarigar
06-29-2009, 05:02 PM
We had a problem where the Light Sparks were owning people. We 4 shotted it our first night and then then this weekend everytime a wipe was called because either A. Enrage timer was about to be hit or B. we lost too many healers.

Muffin Man
06-29-2009, 05:14 PM
Having only done this on 10 man, I had no idea the light spark could kill people. We just let it run loose figuring all it did was the 100 yard aoe damage.

Also, our strategy was to set up a totem camp 10 yards behind melee and 10 yards in front of ranged/healers. The light sparked guy would stand in the totems, void zones would run off to either side of the boss. Seemed to work well, although it was a tight fit since there's also the MT on the other side of XT for the healers to keep in range.

And last, was that 3 warriors in the top 5 dps? Gives me a little hope =p.

Tarigar
06-29-2009, 05:16 PM
Having only done this on 10 man, I had no idea the light spark could kill people.

They were getting melee'd on 10 man by the Light Spark for 20k.

Regill
06-30-2009, 05:57 AM
One thing that will help your healers considerably on tantrums is to setup a cooldown rotation. Raid Sac, Hymn, and some other stuff I can't remember exactly. Our healing team had a whole list of people and which tantrum in sequence they would blow a cooldown on. Just put the order in a macro so it is easy to inform everyone what the order is, and make sure each person knows when they are next.

For positioning, make sure there is seperation between the melee and ranged groups. Also you can have the melee all together tight just behind his right or left foot. Then when they run on light spark, they run to behind the other foot, are still in melee range to dps, but are out of light spark damage range. This was really helpful prenerf with meeting the enrage, but isn't strictly essential now.

johnandre93
06-30-2009, 09:00 AM
We 4 shotted it our first night and then then this weekend everytime a wipe was called because either A. Enrage timer was about to be hit or B. we lost too many healers.


A. We killed 25 man hard mode after 2 evasion tanks and lots of dead dps :p Think everyone except... 2 healers and 1 dps died when he died. I had to close my eyes each time a tantrum occured!

agranyoch
07-01-2009, 12:58 AM
When we're doing XT-002, I keep an eye on his health percentages at the 6, 4, and 2 minute marks. As long as they're about 75%, 50%, and 25% respectively, we're going to be fine.
Hey Cider - check this addon (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/timetodie.aspx) out. Calculates the time it takes for a mob to die on the fly, very useful for keeping track of whether the raid is going to make the enrage timer or not.

Zuvassin
07-01-2009, 10:19 AM
Well, we tried spreading out the ranged and it didnt seem to go as well as expected. We had a lot more raid DPS stacking up the ranged and melee.

Another questions I have tho is how many ranged DPS did you have killing sparks? We had roughly 10 ranged DPS in the raid and I'm wondering if they should all be on the life spark or if you assign certain people to it and let the rest continue DPS on XT. We only ran with 5 healers and 2 tanks, and we were barley killing the heart intime. You stated that you can have 6-7 healers and 2 tanks and have no problem killing the heart.

Thanks again and thanks for all your vids :)

Splug
07-01-2009, 10:23 AM
Another questions I have tho is how many ranged DPS did you have killing sparks?If the tank can keep them in range of random stray damage from the boss, 3 full-time damage and an offtank is enough to handle them. Two might be doable, but that's really pushing it.

-Splug

mistersix
07-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Offtank? Don't you just kite them?

Meloree
07-01-2009, 10:10 PM
We've used 1 tank and 5 healers for this fight, since we set up our strat and got the kill prenerf when dps was very tight. I taunt to pick up every spark, but don't do any actual threat to it, ranged explodes it, and it's always dead before it hits the ranged clump. No kiting, no offtank, no tank damage. We do have every ranged in raid with the exception of shadow priests burn sparks on spawning. When they were spawning faster, it was nearly fulltime, but it kept the sparks from ever chaining thier shock through melee, which we deemed worthwhile. It's not a concern now, obviously.

This is really one of the easier hardmodes now, there's probably a lot of ways to make it work and succeed at the dps check. With 1 tank, 5 healers, and not having modified the strat to make use of melee splash damage, we still manage 7.5-8 minute kills now.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona

tduckro
07-02-2009, 06:20 AM
Thanks for posting, word of advice, make sure your range are running towards you when they have light bomb, as they will be out of range of taunt...
Thanks again Tankspot

zackiz
07-04-2009, 04:20 AM
Just want to let you know guys, my guild was a little sceptic about using this strategy so we asked. This is what we got.

Q:
http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090703/VH1UPoP0gT.jpg
A:
http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090703/t5VkX7I7IJ.jpg

Conclusion: We don't use this strategy.

Shatterhand
07-09-2009, 04:45 AM
Hi

We (my guild and I) have tried this last night. Wiped a lot on it and didn't get it. We finally gave up and did the deconstruct faster and nerf engineering in the end.
I was tanking the boss, we had one warr tank with vigilance on me for adds/sparks, 7 healers and rest dps. I have a few questions regarding the encounter.
1st : what are the exact effects of the sparks? I see in the movie that you kill them in the middle of the raid. Isn't there an AoE damage when they die or something? Cause we had a team of 4 ppl, tank+3dps ttrying to kill them outside the raid. Best try was to get the boss to 20%, at which point we hit the enrage timer and wiped. Felt like those 3 dps would have been better on boss then waste them on sparks.
2nd : about the healing. What kind of cooldowns do you use for less raid damage during tantrum? Cause we lost a lot of ppl during tantrum phases. I was using Divine protection every 2 tantrums and Heart of Iron during normal phases to try and keep it as easy as possible on the healers, since the raid damage was so much.
3rd : about the dps. How did you do on the heart? Did you have any seconds left? Cause last weeks we were not even near killing the heart and last night sometimes the heart would die just as it was going back in the "chest" of the robot. To me it seemed like we lacked the dps to really make it. Was nice exercise otherwise. Ppl learned how and where to go with the bombs.

Thanks

Splug
07-09-2009, 09:12 AM
Just want to let you know guys, my guild was a little sceptic about using this strategy so we asked. This is what we got.

Q:
http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090703/VH1UPoP0gT.jpg
A:
http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090703/t5VkX7I7IJ.jpg

Conclusion: We don't use this strategy.You phrased your question such that it sounds like you're preventing him from spawning any scrap piles in phase two, rather than just controling the spawn area. The GM's reply seems to have that context as well, in stating "it's meant to work with adds."

-Splug

Darxide
07-09-2009, 10:09 PM
Just want to let you know guys, my guild was a little sceptic about using this strategy so we asked. This is what we got.

Why would you be skeptical of something like this? It doesn't use any kind of tricky LoS or standing on top of terrain or anything else. It's just tank him over there instead of over here. Really, that's sounds a little retentive to me.

Also, considering that Blizzard created the mechanics of the fight to NOT spawn adds from those piles but to spawn double adds from the opposite piles instead, I'd wager to say they completely and fully intended it to work this way and also intended this to be a fully legit strategy.

Darxide
07-09-2009, 10:14 PM
1st : what are the exact effects of the sparks? I see in the movie that you kill them in the middle of the raid. Isn't there an AoE damage when they die or something? Cause we had a team of 4 ppl, tank+3dps ttrying to kill them outside the raid. Best try was to get the boss to 20%, at which point we hit the enrage timer and wiped. Felt like those 3 dps would have been better on boss then waste them on sparks.

The sparks pulse a (raidwide?) AoE nature damage every few seconds in addition to a fair amount of melee nature damage to their target. They do not cause damage on death. If you're losing DPS to the sparks then your DPS is not ready for this fight yet. The sparks have pitifully low health and should die in seconds.


2nd : about the healing. What kind of cooldowns do you use for less raid damage during tantrum? Cause we lost a lot of ppl during tantrum phases. I was using Divine protection every 2 tantrums and Heart of Iron during normal phases to try and keep it as easy as possible on the healers, since the raid damage was so much.

As a Druid simply using Barkskin every Tantrum is typically sufficent for me. Some Tantrums I don't even use cooldowns.

3rd : about the dps. How did you do on the heart? Did you have any seconds left? Cause last weeks we were not even near killing the heart and last night sometimes the heart would die just as it was going back in the "chest" of the robot. To me it seemed like we lacked the dps to really make it. Was nice exercise otherwise. Ppl learned how and where to go with the bombs.

If you're barely getting the heart down then you are DEFINITELY not ready for this hard mode. The heart should drop without worrying that you're going to miss the timer. I'd say if you can't have the heard down before 5 seconds remain then you do not need to be worrying about this hard mode yet.

mistersix
07-10-2009, 10:59 AM
[quote=Darxide;251814Also, considering that Blizzard created the mechanics of the fight to NOT spawn adds from those piles but to spawn double adds from the opposite piles instead, I'd wager to say they completely and fully intended it to work this way and also intended this to be a fully legit strategy.[/quote]

I agree with the coding having to be deliberate in terms of not coming out of the nearby piles but I haven't noticed anyone saying anything about double coming from the far piles. Obviously when I'm tanking him the adds are pretty far from my concern so maybe I'm just missing it.

Inaara
07-10-2009, 11:09 AM
If you're barely getting the heart down then you are DEFINITELY not ready for this hard mode. The heart should drop without worrying that you're going to miss the timer. I'd say if you can't have the heard down before 5 seconds remain then you do not need to be worrying about this hard mode yet.

On our first HM kill we barely got the heart down...... then again, the DPS that DCed came back online after O.o

Darxide
07-10-2009, 10:53 PM
I agree with the coding having to be deliberate in terms of not coming out of the nearby piles but I haven't noticed anyone saying anything about double coming from the far piles. Obviously when I'm tanking him the adds are pretty far from my concern so maybe I'm just missing it.

Trust me, you get twice as many from the far piles.

Darxide
07-10-2009, 10:55 PM
On our first HM kill we barely got the heart down...... then again, the DPS that DCed came back online after O.o

I guess it's doable now that the enrage timer is ridiculously high but you'll be putting your healers to the test having the encounter run that long.

Darksend
07-11-2009, 10:18 AM
I guess it's doable now that the enrage timer is ridiculously high but you'll be putting your healers to the test having the encounter run that long.

When the encounter was 1st killed almost every single guild killled it 10-20 seconds after the enrage timer. Even on our 2nd and 3rd kills it took that long. They nerfed it on our 4th kill and we dropped 2 dps for a healer and a tank and still killed it with i believe over 3 minutes left on the enrage.

My point, Heart DPS means nothing. As long as it dies consistantly then you are ready for this hard mode.

For one, it is very possible that a melee was not auto attacking it. It is very possible to be able to use specials but not be white swinging.\

For two, 5 seconds is a a lot. Even my guild does it (in 25) with only 1-2 seconds left and were on algalon.

Kylus
07-23-2009, 01:02 AM
Downed this in 10man tonight on the second attempt and got myself Aesir's Edge. Thanks a whole lot to Cider and Lore for taking the time to do these videos, they're a huge help to my guild. Keep up the good work!

Dreylight02
08-18-2009, 09:48 AM
The last two weeks my guild has had to move back to tanking Xt by the stairs because we end up getting a lot more adds than before when we moved him to the side inbetween two piles does anyone know if this was intended by blizz or a bug. Sayin this i think that Hard Mode actually becomes easier because after you kill the heart in the first heart phase no more adds come and you just deal light and gravity bombs can anyone offer another insight on this.

mistersix
08-18-2009, 10:54 AM
It's intended. Blizz apparently considered it an exploit. Other bugs are a factor recently however. (LB and GB at a fast pace, tons of adds, etc.).

Mr.Winkle
08-18-2009, 11:19 AM
Doing XT normal this week the adds seem to have returned to regular mode.