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View Full Version : Dodge vs Parry for threat



duniank
06-24-2009, 11:38 AM
i am a warrior tank and i was thinking that i should replace my valor medal of the first war wich hs about 84 dodge on it with rune of rupulsion wich has about 94 parry on it. i am at 24.5% dodge and 19.5% parry so my stats would wind up to be about 23% dodge 20.5% parry, the mitigation would be about the same and i would gain threat from the parry haste buff. good idea or bad idea?

Molohk
06-24-2009, 11:48 AM
Gearing for parry is generally not very good because of diminishing returns and conversion ratios, parry-haste is even less useful if you're a warrior, assuming you are wielding a fast weapon. You already have decent expertise, so if you want to improve your threat you could replace your dodge and dodge/stam gems with str/stam gems.

Your gear doesn't look too bad for threat, so if you're having threat problems you may have to consider the posibility that gear isn't the real issue, maybe there's something about your ability usage that could be improved.

duniank
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
alright il try that. thanks for the advice

Lizana
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
Or a spec change would increase your threat as well

Superspy23
06-24-2009, 12:10 PM
Or a spec change would increase your threat as well

This


Your gear doesn't look too bad for threat, so if you're having threat problems you may have to consider the posibility that gear isn't the real issue, maybe there's something about your ability usage that could be improved.

Or this.

Because the threat gain is there with the parry over dodge but its not the most optimal way to increase threat. Parry haste only increases white hit and HS usage and only by a dismal amount.

Lizana
06-24-2009, 12:17 PM
This
Because the threat gain is there with the parry over dodge but its not the most optimal way to increase threat. Parry haste only increases white hit and HS usage and only by a dismal amount.

Increased haste means also an increase chance in SnB procs, increased haste also means more white swings and more rage and increased chance for some weapon procs, causing the boss to have a greater number attacks he can parry, then possibly increasing the chance of attacks against you, that will increase your damage shield/Revenge/rage intake.

But thats why its a bad idea to use the word only....

As a note, the amount of threat gained is subpar to any actual threat stat, and the above was only meant as a demonstration.

veneretio
06-24-2009, 12:21 PM
I think it's a poor idea because using the Parry trinket will not only contribute less avoidance, but also make it so any pieces of gear in the future you pick up with parry or defense are impacted by diminishing returns even more. Basically, it's never a good idea to gear, gem or enchant for Parry if you've got the option of using Defense or Dodge instead.

An easy way you could increase your threat output is moving 3 of your points from Shield Specialization into Armored to the Teeth. That said, the impact of this isn't going to be massive and likely if you're having threat problems, you should instead describe the situation where you do have issues and perhaps we can offer better help.

Kazeyonoma
06-24-2009, 01:38 PM
wait wait wait..
how does increased haste increase snb procs.

SnB procs off of what... revenge, and devastate only right?

So since haste doesn't increase our GCD (like it does for casters)... how does this even affect SnB?

Lizana
06-24-2009, 01:42 PM
Revenge is usable after a dodge block or parry, an increased attack speed will increase the number of attacks from the boss when the boss parries, thus increasing the bosses attack speed causing him to land more attacks that could be dodged, blocked or parried, thus causing for you to have more chances to revenge....

Yep its a stretch.. but still possible, just not probable :P

Satorri
06-25-2009, 07:58 AM
When I read the title I was thinking it would be a hot place for a nitty gritty breakdown on the threat potential of parry vs dodge based on parry-hasting for increased swings from parry vs the lost avoidance reducing revenge procs.

I'm not going to do the math now, not enough time for that sort of crit, but maybe else wants to?

Superspy23
06-25-2009, 09:24 AM
Parry gives a predictable amount of haste. It averages to 24% haste to your next swing. However, over all, the haste gained is 0.24% per 1% of parry (after DR).

To put that trinket into perspective it gives you only 1% more parry is only giving you 0.24% more haste.

Esch
06-25-2009, 10:33 AM
Parry gives a predictable amount of haste. It averages to 24% haste to your next swing. However, over all, the haste gained is 0.24% per 1% of parry (after DR).

To put that trinket into perspective it gives you only 1% more parry is only giving you 0.24% more haste.

Assuming the math is accurate, that's an interesting note for next 'on hit' threat generation. Dirty napkin math seems to make 20% parry -> 5% more melee swings. That's a lot for DKs to employ Rune Strike, which is already tied to dodge/parry mechanics. I understand Heroic Strike is similar, and would get the same benefit for those extra swings.

I won't gem for parry, but it does help justify the higher itemization cost we see compared to defense/dodge.

Molohk
06-25-2009, 12:08 PM
Parry gives a predictable amount of haste. It averages to 24% haste to your next swing. However, over all, the haste gained is 0.24% per 1% of parry (after DR).

To put that trinket into perspective it gives you only 1% more parry is only giving you 0.24% more haste.

This statement was discussed in another thread (can't find it now), and it's wrong because it assumes that 1% parry would cause 1% of your swings to be parry hasted, which is only true if your swing speed is identical to the bosses swing speed. The ratio between your parry chance and your chance to be parry-hasted is directly proportional to the ratio between the boss' swing speed and your own swing speed.

So: Chance to be Parry-Hasted = Parry Chance * (Your Swing Speed / Boss Swing Speed), this is not accounting for the probability that you could parry more than once before your next swing which only really happens when your swing speed is slower than the boss'.

Superspy23
06-25-2009, 01:18 PM
Here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51149-why-parry-rating-bad-3.html)'s the thread.

You're right. 1% parry = 0.24% parry in only the scenario of your weapon speed being equal to the boss's swing speed. Most warrior tanks will get a far worse return on the parry haste. DK tanks will likely make best use of this.

Lizana
06-25-2009, 01:22 PM
As will anyone else using the top level tank weapons

Satorri
06-26-2009, 07:06 AM
I actually want to do some math of my own about parry hasting. The prevading theory that matches our practical mode of thinking that because warriors/pallies have much faster weapon swings they will get much smaller benefits per parry. DK's on the other hand have very slow melee swings, so each parry would carve a big chunk off (combined with the fact that DKs can achieve much higher parry values comfortably).

The 0.24% more swings is just a simple math answer to the slightly complex way parry haste actually works (namely that it works as a big chunk in one part of your swing, and flat does nothing in another portion), if I remember right. I'd like to revisit this with DK swings, but that is worth a thread of its own.