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View Full Version : Healers having trouble keeping me alive



morbeus
06-23-2009, 01:22 PM
Ok guys, here it is I have been tanking with this toon since the expansion and gearing as i go along the way with all the talent changes i have gone back and forth but settled on this build for threat/avoidance but my healers are having issues keeping me up and complaining about spiky my dmg is ... i have other trinkets but prefer these for the stats ... I do use my trinkets and cooldowns effectively trying to keep one up at all times between that and unbreakable armor ... in a fight such as xt i'm holding my Icebound fort for the aoe ... i dodge / parry alot of attacks but inevitably still take more dmg than an equally geared warrior tank in the guild and he has more health/armor due to the use of a shield 8k armor and stam on it and his ranged wep .. i hear all the forums about dk's being overpowered and i just dont see it ... with the new patch i'm very concerned i will not be an effective tank ... is there something wrong with talents / glyph's or are my healers just whining? I have looked for other tanks on the server {dk's} but find i am one of the few at the top tier of gear scores anyway ... most are dps ... so what am i missing? My healers are usually either a holy priest or druid ...

my rotation is usually it - bs - bb - ob ... i'v macro'd in rs to all abilities on some boss fights i actually replace the oblit with ds to heal myself through .. but find it to be lackluster to say the least

here is my armory link

http://http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&cn=Morbeus&gn=Primal+Retribution

thanks

Molohk
06-23-2009, 01:46 PM
There is no reason why an equally geared warrior should have more armor than a DK (not before 3.2 anyways). Are you sure you're equally geared? or are you just taking more damage because you're less geared? Regarding your health, you are a bit short on stam for your gear level, you should try using a stamina trinket instead of the medal and replacing some of those dodge gems for more stam.

What do you mean "it - bs -bb - ob", is that your AoE rotation or Single Target? Either way, if the issue is your incoming damage, the only way your rotation can help is by keeping blade barrier up. And you're right, you shouldn't be using DS as frost spec.

Besides your health issue, your spec has a few issues (glyph of hungering cold?), but none that would cause you to take more damage than usual. As long as you're not letting mobs hit you from behind, you're keeping blade barrier up, and you're using your cooldowns smartly, there shouldn't be a problem. Are the healers complaining in boss fights or trash pulls? If it's trash pulls it could be that you're just tanking more mobs than the other tanks.

morbeus
06-23-2009, 01:57 PM
Yes i keep blade barrier up in the rotation via blood strike {bs} and blood boil {bb} ... oblits as often as possible till rime proc then howling blast i have runes trikes macro'd into all abilities ... but yes the tank in our guild is using similar t7.5 gear and yet because of shied with 8k armor and a gun with almost 200 health he can still out armor and have more health than i ... i never let trash or mobs behind me yet my dmg is still rough ... i have looked at the logs and seen many dodge parry etc ... but then get an unlucky 3 hits in a row is possible ... and the glyph i have found to be handy for multi garget threat ... it allows hungering cold to be "free" no runic cost applying frost fever to all targets ... then hit deathchill howling blast ... instang aoe threat gen ...

Molohk
06-23-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes i keep blade barrier up in the rotation via blood strike {bs} and blood boil {bb} ... oblits as often as possible till rime proc then howling blast i have runes trikes macro'd into all abilities ... but yes the tank in our guild is using similar t7.5 gear and yet because of shied with 8k armor and a gun with almost 200 health he can still out armor and have more health than i ... i never let trash or mobs behind me yet my dmg is still rough ... i have looked at the logs and seen many dodge parry etc ... but then get an unlucky 3 hits in a row is possible ... and the glyph i have found to be handy for multi garget threat ... it allows hungering cold to be "free" no runic cost applying frost fever to all targets ... then hit deathchill howling blast ... instang aoe threat gen ...

Hungering Cold has negligible threat, it generates 112 threat split between all targets, if you want AoE threat get the glyph of Howling Blast instead. And I have no idea why you're rotating BS and BB, is there a specific reason you dont chose one or the other depending on the number of targets you're tanking?

Even after the nerf, Frost Presence makes up for the lack of armor from a shield. I still don't see how an equally warrior can have more armor than you, can you link his armory? I'm willing to bet the difference in health is caused by your choice of trinkets and gems alone.

If you have the logs, post them, we can probably help you better with some actual numbers to look at.

morbeus
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
agreed i could use trinkets for the health but would lose the dodge / parry ... again even without the trinkets aside from this guy being a jc and getting epic gems on trinkets alone ... he still has more health (excluding the 4k inc from trinkets) ... and armor .. i checked piece for piece all gear is within reason and yet has 8k more armor (shield) but i am also a bs ... so i gain 2 extra slot bonus wrist and glove ... with 48 stam gems ... again not the real issue though ... the armor i believe makes his dmg less "spiky" than mine as it will mitigate overall dmg ... so i see the shield as not a block value item but as a stat increase that i do not get as well as his ranged wep ... which also gives stat increases ... wheras my sigil only gives either more mitigation or some dmg increase ... no health or armor

here is a link The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Carianos)

Molohk
06-23-2009, 02:40 PM
Like I said before. Armory doesnt count the 60% armor bonus you get from frost presence, which will more than compensate for the 8k difference. Just go in-game and check your armor in frost presence, it's nowhere near 16.6k. Armory also doesn't show the 15% you get from talents, while the warrior only gets 10%.

Armory also doesn't show the 2% stamina you get from stoneskin gargoyle or the 10% you get from frost presence (while the warrior only gets 6% from talents). The warrior is getting 290 stamina from his trinkets which accounts for 2,900 health points, he also doesn't have a single dodge gem while you do.

Log into the game, and you will see that your actual health and armor are much higher than reported in Armory. You really can't complain about having less health and at the same time refuse to replace your dodge gems and trinket because you're going to lose the dodge. You made a decision to gear for dodge instead of stamina.

morbeus
06-23-2009, 03:18 PM
ok, i dont think u are understanding the question i am arleady having healers keep me alive problems ... and currently yes ... in game i have approx 1.5k more armor than car in armory ... which as u said doesnt account for some of his talents ... second my stamina ... ok i have 29.8k in game unbuffed ... again less than car but somewhat understandable due to the trinkets he carries ... my pt is we are close now ... i dont see an advantage and yet i will get a "nerf" to one talent that helps me mitigate damage for healers allowing me to only use it once every 2 min ... i dont know warriors nor claim to ... i just know i have attempted to learn this class best i can use my trinkets and rotations and am struggling ... healers are complianing about dk's in general .. and yet here we go with another patch ... on my server dk's arent welcome tanks ... and this will make it worse ... we do have some bosses we excel at ... which is great ... but i had to convince raid leaders to try me ... overall not a mt usually due to lack of snap aggro etc (and complaining healers) I am not saying that warriors have succeeded where i have failed either ... my pt is merely i dont see the "huge" discrepency and was wondering if i was missing something ...

Cookie
06-23-2009, 08:04 PM
Did you just step into Ulduar with your guild? If yes, you're not dying due to "spiky" damage, the mobs hit harder per hit than what your healers are used to. This is normal. They just have to heal more.

If you switch the dodge gems for stam ones, the extra hp will give your healers more time to top you up. Right now, the extra avoidance you get from them isn't really helping you much.

morbeus
06-24-2009, 05:27 AM
well we have been in a few weeks and downed four bosses 10 man and 3 25 but yes not long and nowhere near cleared ... i usually only get assigned one dedicated healer with others with hots on me ... I'm just concerned as i progress in the lower gear i'm not going to be very effective after the patch unless i manage to get the t8 or better gear prior.

Molohk
06-24-2009, 09:14 AM
My point is, there's nothing in your class design and that would make you take more damage than an equally geared warrior. If you factor in your cooldowns and trinkets, you should in fact be taking less damage than them. You seem to imply that DK design is to be blamed for your "taking more damage", and that's just not very likely.

Your low health will give the illusion of "spikey damage", and will make it easier for you to die with brusts but that is easy to solve by fixing your trinket and gem choices (yes, EH comes at the cost of avoidance, but you need EH to survive the bursts). As long as you are covering the basics (not getting hit from behind, not sitting down, keeping blade barrier up, etc), if you still have survivability problems it's most likely due to external factors, like healing assignments, raid composition or plain healing suckage.

Jaeden
06-24-2009, 10:18 AM
Additionally, your healers need to step it up. In Naxx you could be lazy, but in Ulduar you need to be more proactive healing, and not reactive.

On your side you need to make sure you are using the right rotation, positioning, etc.

Cookie
06-24-2009, 10:25 AM
There's plenty of non-set tanking gear in Ulduar which you can use to gear up without getting set prio. If you're low on dkp, that works fine too.


Your low health will give the illusion of "spikey damage"
This. Your healers must be using percentages on their hp display or be just bad at judging health drops.

morbeus
06-24-2009, 11:34 AM
well the comparison i have is this when on xt since we didnt down him the first few times we changed tanks ... so for a couple of tries i was on xt then our warrior tank ... comparing logs him and i we discovered a difference of approx 1.5k dmg from most hits ... granted i dodged more hits etc than him but when i get hit ... i get hit hard unless i have a trinket or ability to absorb that dmg .. which is unpredictable at best ... but can use them on keeping one up as much as possible still leaves me with some dead time and no guarantee that while it is up i will actually take a hit ... on a boss like xt i can predict the pummel on the one min timer and avoid some of that or absorb ... but the normal melee hits are killing me ... usually only if for bad luck i get 2 or 3 in a row without a dodge/parry which doesnt happen alot ... i may regem for more stam ... and hope for better trinkets but most only come from bosses we have not cleared yet ... (stam trinkets) ... on my other concern about the upcoming changes in the patch is i wonder if they are making adjustments to a class based on top tier gear ... and those of us still struggling to get there will have more of a problem until we acquire that gear ... as far as the rest i assume since noone has brought it up i dont have major flaws in my talents etc ... as far as the healers go yes we have already had a bit of a shake down on healers ... having to step it up some to keep up with trash mobs being what they are in ulduar ... and some stuck in a rut of a certain healing cycle etc ... thanks for the responses

Cookie
06-24-2009, 01:31 PM
How many hits do you want to take in a row? Of couse if you get 3 consecutive hits without any heals, you will die. He hits hard. Tell your healers to heal more.

If your healers need something like 5 hits before they start healing, they must be senile. His swing timer is I believe 2.5 seconds, so if you took 3 hits, that's 5 seconds with no heals landing.

Unless your warrior has better gear than you, if he is taking less overall damage, then you're doing something wrong. If it's just happening on XT, maybe the melee isn't moving fast enough when they have the light bomb.

Maybe the boss is getting meleed from the front too much and you're getting gibbed if the boss does parry-haste.

Fayre
06-24-2009, 01:33 PM
Or the mob isn't debuffed properly when you are tanking? Demo shout can account for some of the difference perhaps. Just an off-the-top-of-my-head thought.