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khios
06-22-2009, 06:50 PM
Hey ya all

Well i am another DK with threat issues
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman%27Thul&n=Nastymin) is my armory link

I have been playing as a frost spec tank with unholy talk offspec.

My question is about my talent build for frost. My TPS is about 3.5k but a guild cat is always waying to cut back on DPS as his tps is almost the same as mine. Am i doing something wrong. I open with DnD then IT and PS then howling blast as often as I can with blood boil always keeping deseases up. is it just because I am still gearing or am I doing something wrong?

I have just started tanking naxx 10 man with guild and clearing up to KZ ( healers are not healing the ice block fast enough and loosing people that way) have been trying to get the 2 hander from h HOL without much luck so far. What is better for threat gen, a 2 hander or 2x1 hand? Using 2 hand atm for the defence bonus but can prob get that elsewhere if needed. Also for tanking what should I aim HR at as looking at recount for naxx last week i am finding about 16% miss on malee and abuot 10% for spells. Thinking that that might be a bit of the problem as well for threat gen being low.

Thanks in advance

Min

keeprock
06-22-2009, 09:42 PM
It might be somewhat because of your gear. There is still a lot of room for improvement. And definitely finding a new weapon will help some. You don't have a guild mate or friend who could help you craft the Titansteel Destroyer? Does your server have Flame Leviathan only runs? Flame Leviathan is very easy to do for almost any pug. Just jump in a gunner spot in a seige engine and no one will notice your undergeared. If you do have Flame Leviathan only runs, that's another place to get a good Death Knight weapon (Ironsoul).

I wouldn't bother with a dual weild build. There is no reason to do it when 2 handed threat is fine.

Are you also using the Rune Strike macro in all your spells from the macro forums here? It is invaluable for threat generation. I'd also drop plague strike glyph for the Rune Strike glyph. And unbreakable armor I'd drop for Howling Blast.

My AoE priorities usually are DnD-> HB -> BB -> (tap) BB -> FS. My single target priorities are usually DnD -> IT -> OB -> BS -> FS. I only use DnD to start initial aggro or to pick up new adds if it's ready. Rune Strike is macroed into every spell I use so it automatically fires off any spell in my "rotation."

A couple little things you could do. Change your glove enchant to armsman. That's +2% overall threat. If you can defense cap some other way, I personally skip the defense meta gem and put in the dps meta gem, chaotic skyflare diamond.

Good Luck.

Kurtosis
06-22-2009, 09:59 PM
Most of your questions are answered and explained in Tankspot's Guides (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41670-tankspot-s-official-guides-articles-listing.html).

Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/40694-death-knight-aoe-spec-mt-spec-rotations.html)

Tankspot Guides: Gearing for Threat: WotLK Guide to Hit & Expertise (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/42653-gearing-threat-wotlk-guide-hit-expertise.html)

A few observations on your gear:

1. Upgrade your weapon to the crafted Titansteel Destroyer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41257), that will certainly increase your threat. Best DK tank weapon till Death's Bite (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39417) or Betrayer of Humanity (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40384) drops in Naxx. Mats for TSD should be relatively cheap by now.

2. Not threat-related, but an easy change: Change your helm metagem. DK's can't use shields, so that metagem is partially useless. Austere Earthsiege Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380) is much better for DK tanks.

3. Also not threat-related, replace your parry+defense gem (on your Titanium Earthguard Ring) with a dodge + defense or dodge + stam or defense + stam (if there is such a gem). Never gem for parry, it suffers more from diminishing returns (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html) than dodge. Gem for Defense till you hit 540d, then stamina and dodge.



I open with DnD then IT and PS then howling blast as often as I can with blood boil always keeping deseases up. is it just because I am still gearing or am I doing something wrong?
First, are you referring to AoE pulls, or single boss fights?

Second, DnD + IT + PS means you've used up 2 Unholy runes, meaning you can't Howling Blast till one of them refreshes. So that rotation would be DnD -> IT -> PS -> BB (I assume) -> Wait 10s -> HB. Inefficient. Basically, you want to dump all your runes and all your rp as rapidly as possible to build up as much threat as possible.

Try instead, on AoE pulls: HB (glyped to get FF up quickly) -> DnD -> BB -> (all runes used) -> Frost Strike primary target till no more RP. That lays down all your AoE and consumes your Blood Runes (to proc Blade Barrier) in the first 3 gcd's, and spikes threat on he skulled/focus-fire target. Then just make sure the mobs are positioned in DnD as long as it lasts. Repeat HB and BB whenever they're up, and Oblit and Frost Strike the primary target, till the pull ends.

For single target tanking, you can replace HB with Obliterate since they use the same runes. Just keep in mind you need to keep at least Frost Fever up on the target with either Icy Touch or Glyphed Howling Blast, and you can skip DnD on these:

IT -> PS -> BS -> BS -> Oblit -> (all runes used) -> FS till no more RP, repeat.
or
HB -> BS -> BS -> Oblit -> (all runes used) -> FS till no more RP, repeat.
(I tend to favor getting Blade Barrier up as soon as possible, ymmv)

Not sure which is more TPS/DPS, though, maybe someone else has parsed combat logs on that.

Finally, change your glyphs (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j:TkaMm0). Glyph of Plague Strike and Glyph of Unbreakable Armor are suboptimal. Howling Blast, Frost Strike, and either Oblit or Rune Strike (if you need more single target threat) or DnD (if you need more AoE threat) are better.

have been trying to get the 2 hander from h HOL without much luck so far. What is better for threat gen, a 2 hander or 2x1 hand? Using 2 hand atm for the defence bonus but can prob get that elsewhere if needed.
Don't bother with 2x 1handers. You have to jump through so many spec and gear hoops to make that viable it's just not worth it. Extremely high hit/expertise recquirements, and parry-gib/parry-hasting a boss, and Runeforge optimization are some of the issues to learn about if you're so inclined. It's more of a dps than tanking setup, where dps can wail on the boss from behind where they don't have to worry about him parrying. Trying gear a 2x 1h tank would be massively time-consuming just to get to where a 2H tank is naturally, if it's even possible.

khios
06-23-2009, 12:52 AM
sweet thanks for that. I will get a mate to make the destroyer this evening. the Meta is only in there to make my defence numbers up. I main tanked naxx 10 friday night and up to sath had no real issues. I will swap that meta out after and socket a few +16 def gems. armsman i will get after as well :) yeah i realices today about the gem in my ring. I will socket a new one as well there :) DK tanking seems more in depth than pally tanking.. More fun as well :)

I will make the changed you guys have sudgested and see how things go :)

Thank you's loads :)

PatrikL
06-23-2009, 01:45 AM
A couple little things you could do. Change your glove enchant to armsman. That's +2% overall threat. If you can defense cap some other way, I personally skip the defense meta gem and put in the dps meta gem, chaotic skyflare diamond. (oh. your armory is currently showing 4 defense short for naxx. you need 545 to make your healers life easier.)

545 as def "cap" is news for me, I've always thought it to be 540 for raid bosses, and tbh the calculations I've seen suggest it also. Can anyone else confirm which is the correct value?

Adonae
06-23-2009, 02:04 AM
540 is still correct unless I missed something big.

Kurtosis
06-23-2009, 02:13 AM
540 for raids, 535 for heroic 5mans.

khios
06-23-2009, 03:05 AM
ok if i change out that def meta gem (they really need to do a better meta now DK's are here.. maybe next patch) i will need to socket more def and the only way that I can is to stack def and break socket bonus's. Got another naxx run this week. as my avoidance is only 40% with HoW up i dont wana really tank heroic naxx yet. As a guild we are going to farm first boss Ulduar so hoping the axe will drop.. knowing my luck with drops ( h AN belt and trinket) it will never drop lol

keeprock
06-23-2009, 09:03 AM
545 as def "cap" is news for me, I've always thought it to be 540 for raid bosses, and tbh the calculations I've seen suggest it also. Can anyone else confirm which is the correct value?

You are correct. I was getting 535 for heroics confused with 545. Doh!

Jaeden
06-23-2009, 09:22 AM
1. First and foremost, until you get better defense in slots, pick up the Seal of the Pantheon. The defense it gives you will allow you to regem for exp/sta; Also, if you have the cash for it, buy the bracers of Dalaran's Parapets. That is an awesome tanking bracer and will give you the expertise so you can change out your gloves.

2. Replace dnd glyph with rune strike and macro rune strike into you other strikes/IT.

3. Use Blood strike, not pest/bb on single targets, more damage that way. My buddy's rotation is HB->BS->BS->OB(iirc) then burn all your rp on frost strike :)

Other than that, you just need to do your reputations and collect badges of heroism.

khios
06-23-2009, 07:13 PM
Well the H AN trink FINALLY dropped last night AND i got the rep for the Kerin tor rep gloves which are a serious upgrade from the drop'd ones. I am going to get the EoH belt or trinket or maybe the t7 gloves not to sure which. also the segil from BoH not sure about. I have the one from coins from Griz hills dailys.. the 112 extra damage from IT.

I got the Destroyer crafted last night and re socket'd the meta to stam and armor though I need a red gem to activate it so i will sort thtat out later when my partner gets off my account :p

I am going to see about the macro's today as well and I will swap that glyph out. Also something I have been unsure about.. if I use rune strike and then say hit IT or something will RS still hit since from what i understand RS will take effect on the next malee strike? atm I dont have it macro'd to my spells.

i did a h AN last night without to many issues except the pug drood healer and mana issues last boss.. bast!@d fight for healers that one. my threat gen was sitting about the same but seemed to rise faster than in the past

Anyways i will swap out the glyph and get the gloves etc and see how i go. I will get back after and let you know if things are better. I love my DK and once I get past this issue i will be a happy chappy ;) (after pally tanking this is sooo much different but more fun)

Oh and as for the bracers I might start doing some 25 mans again on my mage to get them.. 40 more badges should not take to long =)

khios
06-23-2009, 08:49 PM
been thinking as well whats best elixers/flasks for tanking.. I have been using stoneblood hut buffed without it 33k HP .. been thinking maybe a strength/mighty fort or something maybe?

keeprock
06-23-2009, 09:10 PM
I am going to see about the macro's today as well and I will swap that glyph out. Also something I have been unsure about.. if I use rune strike and then say hit IT or something will RS still hit since from what i understand RS will take effect on the next malee strike? atm I dont have it macro'd to my spells.

Let me make a quick mathematical case for Rune Strike as the major problem for any frost tank missing threat. Looking at my threat report for a 25 naxx sapphiron fight Keeparthas produced 3359 tps vs Sapphiron (http://rehfeld.us/wow/tps/report/26710) I can see I did 1,253,087 total threat. My Rune Strike did 390,853 (31%) of that amount. If I totally omit the Rune Strike I do 862,234 threat. Mathematically, on that fight I can do 45% more threat by using Rune Strike correctly (390k of 862k is 45%). So for any frost tank to omit Rune Strike in the rotation, you omit possibly 45% more threat you could generate.

Let me also point out that during that Sapphiron fight I was double the threat of any other player in the group. For reference the top dps for that fight looks like he was 3.7k.

That's an interesting point about whether Rune Strike hits or not when your using spells. I guess it wouldn't. But many Death Knight spells are bonuses to melee attacks so I'm sure it's not a major issue.

khios
06-23-2009, 09:40 PM
WOW that is a major threat gen.. ok seems that that could be a serious problem why my threat gen is low. i found in 10 man naxx last week a warlock in about 50% lvl 70 epics was push ing my threat even though her DPS was only about 2k average :/ not to sure why.. thinking her spec is got no threat reduction in it or something.. i know little about locks cept i take them when i pvp on my mage :P

Ok i am going to do the macros now and see how things go..

Also I realise that the stats would be here somewhere but OT for 25 man naxx.. what avoidance/HP etc should i be aiming for.. atm i am close to 40% with HoW up without buffs which i have read is fine for 10 man MT (pally is my OT)

Thanks again in advance :)

Tank in training ;)

Kurtosis
06-23-2009, 09:49 PM
Interesting numbers, keeprock. However, it's not Rune Strike in isolation that is pertinent, but Rune Strike vs. Frost Strike. For example, how would your threat compare if you demacro'd Rune Strike, never casted it, and just spammed Frost Strike instead, putting all your RP into it (instead of splitting RP over both RS and FS)?

Looks like your report actually gives the answer to that too, though:

Threat per strike
Rune Strike: 10,022
Frost Strike: 9,081

About 1000 more threat per strike for RS, so yeah, macro it into everything. Thanks, I've been wondering about how those two compare threatwise for a while.

And it's fine to macro RS into your spells too. If you just dodged a hit, RS activates, and if you cast Icy Touch with RS macro'd in, it will cause RS to fire on the next melee hit. I have it macro'd into everything, strikes and spells alike. No reason not to.

keeprock
06-23-2009, 10:09 PM
The other difference between Rune Strike and Frost Strike is their cost. You can do 2 Rune Strikes (20 runic power) for every Frost Strike (40 power) if you could perfectly replace one for the other. So in my example I'd be doing 20k of Rune Strike for every 9k of Frost Strike for the same price.

keeprock
06-23-2009, 10:39 PM
Also I realise that the stats would be here somewhere but OT for 25 man naxx.. what avoidance/HP etc should i be aiming for.. atm i am close to 40% with HoW up without buffs which i have read is fine for 10 man MT (pally is my OT)

Thanks again in advance :)

Tank in training ;)

From my understanding of what Blizzard says, Naxx10 and Naxx25 are generally parallel and equal progression paths. You can start in Naxx10 or start in Naxx25 depending on if you have a 10 man guild or 25 man. Therefore, gear wise you could do them both with the same level of gear.

The only thing I've read that seems like good advice is to have 29k HP. Other than that, if your MT in Naxx10 and know all the fights, your going to be pretty well prepared. Off-tank duties in Naxx 25 are more skill dependent than gear dependent for the most part. Many bosses do not even require an OT. If you understand all the boss fights your 75% of the way there. If you are good with your abilities you cover off the other 25%.

Questions like: Can you pick up unexpected adds? Can you deal with new adds coming fast and from different areas? Do you taunt well when you miss getting initial aggro? Is Death Grip ready for when the first taunt fails? (lol). Are you standing in the right spot? The main tank died, are you still in tank gear and in frost presence, ready to save the day? Do you generate enough threat?

khios
06-23-2009, 10:47 PM
well yeah I have cleared naxx countless times on my mage so the fights are no issue. my partner has tanked naxx 25 enough as well which is handy.. i think i know most of the fights well enough as a person.. as for skill well .. i dont think i would have to many issues.. after countless wipes on thadias (spelling bloody people who dont move fast enough or watch debuff bar) and i can do that and the dance without dieing i think could handle OT duties.. i know most of the mob pulls and where to tank them etc.. eg shades etc in military wing.

Am i right in saying.. progression after 10 man naxx with all the toon 10 man geared would be 10 man ulduar.. as a guild we are going to take a look in a few weeks time.. this week going to down first boss since i have been told he is rather simple. also a few people want to progress and I was not sure if we sould do some 25 man content ( would mean pugging 1/2 the raid)

also i did the macro thing now and I will get the EoH belt in a bit then I will take Nasty for a spin and see if I can hold agro against the kitty cat.. if i can then things will be sweet since he is the only person i have problems with. be good for him to be able to go all out again rather than having to slow down on his dps all the time :/

PatrikL
06-24-2009, 02:09 AM
Let me make a quick mathematical case for Rune Strike as the major problem for any frost tank missing threat. Looking at my threat report for a 25 naxx sapphiron fight Keeparthas produced 3359 tps vs Sapphiron (http://rehfeld.us/wow/tps/report/26710) I can see I did 1,253,087 total threat. My Rune Strike did 390,853 (31%) of that amount. If I totally omit the Rune Strike I do 862,234 threat. Mathematically, on that fight I can do 45% more threat by using Rune Strike correctly (390k of 862k is 45%). So for any frost tank to omit Rune Strike in the rotation, you omit possibly 45% more threat you could generate.

I know this is a bit off topic but how do you generate the threat report? I currently use omen to watch my threat (like most I guess) but being able to look through it afterwards would be great.

I would also like to say that (and someone might have said this already) macroing in RS in all spells not only increases you threat level a lot but it also does wonders for your dps so this should not be omited by anyone. Well except if you need to use your runic power for something else I guess it can be.

keeprock
06-24-2009, 08:51 AM
To create that report you first create a wowwebstats report. To do that you start by turning on /combatlog in the game before a raid/heroic. When your done your raid, go to Wow Web Stats (http://www.wowwebstats.com) make an account and use the wws client to upload your combatlog. It will make you a nice homepage for all your reports. From there you click on your wws report. You can use the wws website to pick a certain boss in the fight and then click on yourself for that fight. Copy whatever URL you are now at (showing only your stats, or another tank's stats) and paste that URL in at WowWebStats Tps Calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/tps/) and your done.

keeprock
06-24-2009, 09:43 AM
Am i right in saying.. progression after 10 man naxx with all the toon 10 man geared would be 10 man ulduar.. as a guild we are going to take a look in a few weeks time.. this week going to down first boss since i have been told he is rather simple. also a few people want to progress and I was not sure if we sould do some 25 man content ( would mean pugging 1/2 the raid)

also i did the macro thing now and I will get the EoH belt in a bit then I will take Nasty for a spin and see if I can hold agro against the kitty cat.. if i can then things will be sweet since he is the only person i have problems with. be good for him to be able to go all out again rather than having to slow down on his dps all the time :/

You are correct. 10 man ulduar is next after 10 naxx. If you and your guild can pull a 4 piece set of T7 from naxx you'll be setup pretty nice for dps, heals, and tanking. Add in 10man OS, and Vault and you should gear up anyone not already geared pretty quick. If you have the time and guys to attempt a Naxx 25 I'd do it. Our guild doesn't bother with it because the guys that want to do it will pug in somewhere anyway on an off night. If you only have a good core of 10, and your dps is already geared, I'd start in Ulduar right away. Razorscale, and XT-002 are easy also as long as you have some good dps.

I hope the tps works out for you.

Jaeden
06-24-2009, 10:39 AM
I am going to see about the macro's today as well and I will swap that glyph out. Also something I have been unsure about.. if I use rune strike and then say hit IT or something will RS still hit since from what i understand RS will take effect on the next malee strike? atm I dont have it macro'd to my spells.

Since people ignored the real question, here is the answer:

Rune Strike works on your next melee hit. That means the next time your weapon swings on it's timer. Plague Strike, Icy Touch, etc are instant attacks and do not modify the swing timer. This is how in dps reports a player can have high melee, but still huge strike usage. Macro it into your strikes that you use to build RP, but not pestilence and similar, and at the end of your rune rotation, spend your rp with Frost Strike.

Now that that is out of the way...LOSE ALL OF THE DEFENSE GEMS!!!

You are using the defense sigil AND are already OVER the 540 cap. Change all gems other than your 41 sta dragon eyes to exp/sta. Parry doesn't stack up well and exp helps with your threat.

Fathom
06-24-2009, 11:12 AM
A couple other things you may want to try if you're still running into issues.

You don't have Icy Talons in your spec, unless you have a pet enhance shammy or a dps frost dk picking it up is a threat boost, and if you go deep enough to get Imp Icy Talons the extra 5% haste is a threat boost even if you do have someone else to provide the melee haste buff. Obviously there's tradeoffs for this as you have to pull the points from somewhere (my personal choice would be to take them out of Morbidity and Deathchill which I find deeply sub-par, and Chill of the Grave which is a more straightforward threat for threat tradeoff, but YMMV), but can have the advantage of providing some extra raid utility if you don't have the melee haste buff in the raid otherwise.

Use AMS aggressively, it's a very short CD, and lots of fights these days have periodic magic damage, AMS has become more a "Hey! free full RP bar!" button than a defensive cooldown for me these days.

I'll also add my anecdotal evidence that making the most out of RS is a huge factor in single target threat. A month or two ago finally sat down and cleaned up my UI from the mess it had become while leveling, in the process shifting RS to a mouse key I could mindlessly hammer away at during fights. I immediately saw significant improvements, going from "comfortably holding aggro" (peaking around 6k tps) to "I could DC without causing problems" (peaking up around 9k tps).

khios
06-25-2009, 06:25 PM
first of all please excuse an typos as i am int the notebook.. damn kids taken over my PC.

ok i got the EoH segil last night and droped the def gems that i could loose so that my def is 530 ish before the segil comes up.. since IT is used a lot i cant see my def being below 540 with it up.

i have replaced the gems i had as def to the exp/stam ones. thank god my main is a JC and my partners shammy healer is a scribe ;)

well now my stats are

29.5k HP with frost pres
22% dodge
17% parry
25kish armor

I did MT naxx 10 the other night with no real issues except wuth sath where after about 7 wipes changed to healing and my partner taked with her pally (better gear) KZ .... well we wont go there.. i was no problem but the ice blocks killed 2 many people.. hmmm lost thack of thoughts there...

tonight we have guild naxx 10 and should clear up to sath at least I will give everthing you guys have told me a whirl and see how things go

from the last few heroics I have tanked it is seeming that threat and AoE threat is not as much of a problem. I believe my OT is either a bear or pally so I am not to worried about the trash. Oh OS and VOA 10 no issues with except emalon.. i tanked the adds rather than the boss and I got hammered. i will try tanking emalon himself and will get a better geared tank mate to take the adds

i will get back here tomorrow and let you know if everything is now all good )

thank you all so much with your time and efforts in helping me. this is by far the best forums i have ever been in

Regards,

Min

keeprock
06-25-2009, 08:05 PM
So your threat problem is fixed and your outthreating that kitty?

khios
06-26-2009, 11:09 AM
well we managed to do our first guild clear of 10 man naxx.. so we was rather happy. doing lotheab kitty was pushing my threat the whole time but during patch i had no problem what so ever keeping threat way above his. so I think the problem is solved =) also got some nice upgrades as well tonight that i am gemming and that.

I decided I dont like relying on the segil to make def cap up. so i have cap'd myself def wise without it though the amount of def gems has decreased quite a lot. i think i have 2 left for now. the rest are dodge/stam or exp/stam with 1 def/stam. my avoidance is only 32% i think with HoW up but realise that will improve as gear does. i have MT all boss's there except KZ now and i know he is not that bad to do.

I last thing to ask.. if i kept using that def segil does having def over 540 give any bonus. i know there is some extra dodge or soemthing but is there any point or for now should i just use the bay one.. adds 112 damage to IT

Thanks so much for the help i have received here :) been very very good :)


Regards

Min

HootyElune
06-26-2009, 11:32 AM
From reading it sounds like you have some good advice here. One thing I might add is get Omen3 from curse gaming. It helps when looking at which target to focus your strikes (usually the one with the warlock attacking it).

I also use the DND, HB, BB, RT, BB, PS, IT, DS rince repeat, rotation for aoe mobs. Never any probs with agro. I use similar for single target subing BS for BB.

Also check your glyphs, HB glyph helps a ton with agro. Check out my spec if you want. Not ideal (icy talons could be better used) but pretty good.

keeprock
06-26-2009, 03:03 PM
well we managed to do our first guild clear of 10 man naxx.. so we was rather happy. doing lotheab kitty was pushing my threat the whole time but during patch i had no problem what so ever keeping threat way above his. so I think the problem is solved =) also got some nice upgrades as well tonight that i am gemming and that.

I last thing to ask.. if i kept using that def segil does having def over 540 give any bonus. i know there is some extra dodge or soemthing but is there any point or for now should i just use the bay one.. adds 112 damage to IT

Thanks so much for the help i have received here :) been very very good :)


Good to hear the threat is better. Loatheb is about the only fight I've ever noticed dps threat getting uncomfortably close to my own. So that's probably normal.

I don't know exactly when defense would be "too much" but there is no reason to not use the defense sigil for extra defense. It will still help every fight. So keep on picking up all the stamina you can and any defense you can afford to keep over the minimum 540. You'll find as you gear up, it'll be hard to maintain sometimes and easy others.

khios
06-26-2009, 06:05 PM
yeah with loatheb and the crit bonus's its a hard one. On my mage I know that once the crit buffs start stacking up I have amost 100% crit rate.. frostfire bolt.. frostfire then pyro.. repreat and threat over takes geared tanks in a matter of secs.. the fact that on patch my threat was well above kitty to me means that the issue is no longer so bad since he was pulling over 4k dps.

Yes I have omen as well Hooty :) I cant remember really not having it. well except as heaer when I disable it as regardless to threat if i have to heal i heal.. if something comes at me.. fade :)
Hooty I will also take a squiz at your build. the one I am currently using is one that my partner found on the net.

going through recount after all was said and done. i think i had about .9% spell loss to miss's and 2% malee miss.. about the same with dodge, block and parry. so a 4% avoidance from boss's is something I can live with.. not i think i have 6% hit (i always have a drani with me) so i can live with 7%
I will keep going with exp/stam or dodge/stam depending what I need to make the socket bonus. from now on I think its just a matter of having good drops for gear upgrades :)

Again I would like to thank eveyone for your help with this matter :) even before the extra gear I picked up last night.. just changing the gems, glyphs and using RS things are a lot better :)

Regards

Min

Edit: hey Hooty.. can you please link either your armory or something so i can take a squiz at your talent build? :)