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Uslock
06-22-2009, 10:15 AM
My Warrior is about to hit 80, and I am starting to notice something that is a bit disheartening....

a) There is no problems at all getting in a Heroic Instance as a Tank.

b) There seems to be 0 demand for a Tank in a Guild Raid.

And it is even worse as a warrior, apparently. If I am aiming for endgame progression raiding... did I make an error deciding to tank and picking a warrior to do it?

It seems like that unless you have already been picked up in an established raiding guild, your chances of getting into the Tank rotation in a Guild is slim to none. You either respec DPS or run Heroics/PUGs for the rest of your days.

Cookie
06-22-2009, 10:40 AM
Most raiding guilds recruit interally for tanks, like if an MT were to leave, an OT or alt would take his place. The few recruitment ads I've seen have been for OTs too, never an MT position, so unless you want to start by OTing trash for a guild or join a newly created guild, there's not much choice.

Since all raid bosses need only 2-3 tanks (some even require as low as one), and it's better to have all your tanks be different classes, you can safely say that there's pretty much room for only 1 or 2 100% prot warriors per guild unless it's overrecruiting.

But don't give up if tanking is what you like best. Have a look at the guild recruitment forums on the official boards. That's where most of the recruitment ads usually are. There's also recruitment boards on mmo-champion.com Having a dps dual spec will probably increase your chances, for the times the boss doesn't need an OT.

Uslock
06-22-2009, 10:47 AM
Good reply :) TY

And I should have mentioned I have no qualms OTing at all. If anything, it gives me the opportunity to observe a MT. How they pull, note any reasons for a wipe, marking,etc and I still have the chance to eventually obtain some gear after the MT is geared up.

I didn't mean to come off as if I was demanding a MT spot right out of the gate :) I fully intend to put the effort/work in as a prot war OT in a guild. I was just a bit concerned with the lack of prot war ads I was seeing. Quite a few tank roles advertised, but they are all specific for DK/Pal/Feral.

shez
06-22-2009, 10:49 AM
seeing you only need 3 tanks in a 25man, and tanks seem to be the most reliable members in the raid, also guilds seem to replace tanks with their existing dps, if a tank leaves..I'm not sure abotu other guilds, but in my guild tank turnover rate is extremely low, we havent' had any need of new tanks in a year, except for a back up, but then we just get a dps with dual spec tank to do it now.

If you like tanking you should stay tank, i've seen a lot of people burn out becuase they are playign the spec they dont' enjoy.

With all tanks are suppoesd to be equal and able to tank all bosses now, warrior tanks aren't that sought after as in pre wotlk, with DK being OP atm, it also means that guilds will prefer a DK tank (they are getting nerfed next patch though)

with dual spec, i think a lot of guild will be recruiting dps and asking them to OT occassionaly or vice versa

but yeah, on my server there's also no guild lf tanks :/

chun
06-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Don't be discouraged. It simply may take you awhile to find a good guild
fit.

Most guilds, particularly regular raiding guilds have their main tank corps
set. I'd look to the more casual raiding guilds first, work your way as an
off tank and DPS, and then fit in as your tanks rotate around.

I know we rotate tanks on various bosses to get all our tanks experience,
but I believe that more progression-based guilds tend to use the same tanks
so that they can speed thru farm content quickly, and spend more time
on progression content.

Finally as you gear up a bit, don't be afraid of trying some PuG stuff. Getting
a good reputation as a pug tank, and developing your friends list (particularly
with good dpsers or healers) is HUGE.

Also, I'd advise ignoring most forum QQ. Most of the large differences in
tanking show up at the highest levels of content, areas where many
people won't go, or won't get to soon. Work on your craft and work to
improve and develop your tanking instincts, particularly when and how
to use cooldowns. Understand your spec, alternate specs, and ideas behind
gearing.

Good luck and happy tanking.


Good luck, and happy tanking.

veneretio
06-22-2009, 11:02 AM
My Warrior is about to hit 80, and I am starting to notice something that is a bit disheartening....

b) There seems to be 0 demand for a Tank in a Guild Raid.

We're missing a lot of the information around this entire dilemma of yours.

1) You just hit 80, is this your first toon?
2) Are you already in a guild?
3) Is your gear ready for raiding?
4) Do you have ventrilo? Do you speak on it?

Overall, you have to keep in mind that tanks are in many ways the most trusted position in a raid. You'll likely need to be able to lead a raid in some way, shape or form eventually. Also keep in mind that it's difficult to walk into an established raiding guild as any role or class.

My advice would be to being very aggressive with upgrading your gear in the short term. This means crafting even minor upgrades. Enchanting even blue pieces with the best enchants. Always using the highest quality gems. Once you've done all that, start trying to pug. Pugs are the best place to get noticed and a lot of times word of mouth is what gets you into a guild as a tank. (It's b/c you've already got the trust of part of the guild)

Good luck and give us more info!

Uslock
06-22-2009, 11:23 AM
If you like tanking you should stay tank, i've seen a lot of people burn out becuase they are playign the spec they dont' enjoy.


Thats what I am afraid of :( Doing DPS, topping the meters etc, doesn't interest me really.




1) You just hit 80, is this your first toon?
2) Are you already in a guild?
3) Is your gear ready for raiding?
4) Do you have ventrilo? Do you speak on it?


1) It was the first toon I rolled back in 2007 when I started playing. Leveled to about 40. Had to stop because of lack of internet where I moved. Started in 2008, had to stop because of finishing college. I started up now after finding a great job/career path, settling in for about 6 months now.. so I can spend much more time doing things I enjoy (i.e., WoW.) Instead of quitting everything and playing WoW, I quit WoW and finished school and found a great job :) So now I can feed my WoW habit lol.

2) I am in a casual/small guild with a few people I met over time. They do 10 man Uld right now. Not much of a raiding future there I sense.

3) Not at all. I am soon to hit 80 :) I have a few gear guides researched, ideas, etc. Plenty to do to gear up.

4) Absolutely. I have no qualms whatsoever getting on Vent, chatting, etc.

I just don't want to spend the time gearing up, investing the time, etc in a class/role that I more than likely will not get to fill. I enjoy tanking, it's what I have done successfully in other MMO's pre-WoW. I just fear I am a bit LTTP.

But it looks I may have to just settle for DPS spec and hope to get the call one day as a tank lol.

Oh and great advice for PUGs. I didn't even think of that, and reading through alot of recruiting tips.. thats where alot of Guilds do look for people. If they are pugging a tank, obviously they are in need of one :) As you said, networking goes a long way ;)

GravityDK
06-23-2009, 12:48 AM
Networking is a really good tool. Being an active tank for heroics will get you into a guild, particularly when 3.2 hits and EVERYONE will be doing heroics, constantly.

Uslock
06-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Networking is a really good tool. Being an active tank for heroics will get you into a guild, particularly when 3.2 hits and EVERYONE will be doing heroics, constantly.

Good point as well :) So I will suck it up and try to PUG my way into a raiding Guild as a tank :) Thanks for the great info guys, soon to ding 80. Then moving on to grab gear asap to start Naxx pugs :)

Widdox
06-23-2009, 07:11 AM
Back in BC. I was in a guild as a healer and I would respec to tank between raid nights and run 5 mans and kara. Then when ZA came out I started leading bear runs as a tank. Pretty soon the guild had confidence in me as a tank and a healer. When they needed a tank for a particular night because they were short, they asked me to go respec to prot and tank for the guild.

I let them know that I am willing to do what the guild needs, but my preference is being a tank. They appreciated my attitude and my willingness to lead 10 mans. When a tank spot opened up I was moved into it. Now I am the raid leader, because our last guy got a new job and couldn't raid anymore.

I would be willing to bet that most tanks follow a similar path. In times of dire need guilds will recruit tanks, but mostly tanks are found from within. Usually they are dedicated players to the guild who can be trusted.

morelore
06-23-2009, 07:20 AM
Any guild that is having success by definition already has tanks, so it's pretty hard to recruit into a successful guild as a tank (or at least *just* as a tank). If you're a class they don't have and want to round out the roster (for example, my guild doesn't have a DK tank and would like one) you can sometimes get in that way.

Other than that, your best bets are guilds that are just starting up, are looking to expand a raiding schedule but don't have the tank attendance for it, or 10 man guilds that are looking to recruit up to two raid teams and/or 25s.

Daggus
06-23-2009, 07:31 AM
I got into my guild by being noticed in instances. One of the officers was on his alt as a healer. He spoke normally, acted like a friendly normal person, was mature and sensible so i started asking about his guild. They sounded foreign but all spoke english in guild chat and on vent. They were mature players who had just started pushing their raiding content a few months back. I turned 80 at the begining of June to give you an idea of time frames. I am now signed up to tank a naxx 10 run ( but will probs dip out to improve my gear a bit). The MT druid there is happy to move over and dps for a night to help me improve my tanking and has already helped me by explaining tactics and stuff.

Guilds look for players with good skill in PuG's and recruit the decent players there. My guild always favours personality and skill over gear and knowledge. Gear and knowledge can be gained in time. Personality and skill are what you should start with.

veneretio
06-23-2009, 12:15 PM
I just don't want to spend the time gearing up, investing the time, etc in a class/role that I more than likely will not get to fill.
It's unrealistic to expect a guild to invest the time into you if you aren't will to invest the time into yourself. There's really no class/spec that's going to get handed a raid spot without trying. Effort is pretty much the only thing that established raid guilds care about because the gear part is easy to change whereas the attitude isn't.

Widdox
06-23-2009, 12:24 PM
Very true Veneretio. Combined with the fact that there are so few tank spots in raids, competition is higher for those spots. I wish I could enforce the same requirements I get from my tanks on the entire raid, but the fact remains it is easier to be average as a dps and not be a problem than to be average as a tank.

Uslock
06-23-2009, 01:08 PM
It's unrealistic to expect a guild to invest the time into you if you aren't will to invest the time into yourself. There's really no class/spec that's going to get handed a raid spot without trying. Effort is pretty much the only thing that established raid guilds care about because the gear part is easy to change whereas the attitude isn't.

I have no problem putting in the effort and time to grind out gear, pug for naxx gear, etc. None whatsoever. I am simply voicing my concern over wasting my time chasing a specific role that I more than likely will not be able to fill.

The more research I do, the more I am finding:

A) PUG alot. Network.

B) More than likely, will have to play primarily as DPS and try to fill in for OT or something with a Prot offspec.

minrog
06-24-2009, 03:28 AM
It's going to be very difficult. Melee DPS is the most coveted slot and least useful variety of DPS to bring on a raid. Warrior tanks haven't got versatility for anything else and I don't see raids bringing in more than 2 Warriors anymore (one fury or arms and one prot). An established raid that brings more than that are bringing those guys because they like them and have known them forever and don't want to make them reroll because of it.

You're talking about decreasing raid slots available for a Prot Warrior to fill combined with massive competition for the 6 or so melee DPS spots you could be with your offspec. Tough road to travel.

I will give you a small ray of hope. I have been the MT/sometimes RL for my guild for a few years now though at the beginning I was an OT. A Warrior put up an application for a Prot Warrior slot for our guild and he reads Tankspot. I brought him along on some raids, made him tank for me while I did RL as Fury, gave the GM/Officers feedback that he was "competent, not exceptional but possibly trainable" and said I would like to groom him to replace me in that spot and I would reroll as a healer/ranged DPS. One caveat is that I instructed him on no uncertain terms I would have to scrub him if he couldn't also do strong DPS in his off spec. I use the term MT above loosely, generally that means I am the Tank Lead not that I tank every fight. All of my tanks must be able to DPS or heal competently or I keep looking. I don't expect top 5 but they can't be behind the pack either.

So there it is. It's possible but a low probablity. You're going to need to be able to do strong damage when you aren't tanking. If you miss too many raids they will start to think about replacing you as well.

Aside: You should be trying to top the damage meters while tanking just because 3k DPS scares the bottom of the pack DPS guys and there's no reason to just hang out when you could be helping the team win faster. If you ever were able to be top damage as the tank it will make you die inside though lol.

Esch
06-25-2009, 10:17 AM
I wish I could enforce the same requirements I get from my tanks on the entire raid, but the fact remains it is easier to be average as a dps and not be a problem than to be average as a tank.


Aside: You should be trying to top the damage meters while tanking just because 3k DPS scares the bottom of the pack DPS guys and there's no reason to just hang out when you could be helping the team win faster. If you ever were able to be top damage as the tank it will make you die inside though lol.

Minrog's thought is Widdox's solution. I personally strive to bump up my DPS, and I'm creeping up on the lower DPS folks. While it's not always merely about numbers, it's awkward to have to explain how tanks are closing the gap. The bonus is that the extra DPS I'm cranking out does reduce the difficulties in fights, by shortening encounters slightly, which is a Good Thing (tm).

Cookie
06-25-2009, 10:32 AM
Very true Veneretio. Combined with the fact that there are so few tank spots in raids, competition is higher for those spots. I wish I could enforce the same requirements I get from my tanks on the entire raid, but the fact remains it is easier to be average as a dps and not be a problem than to be average as a tank.
You won't get too far in Ulduar if your dps has that mentality. Most of the fights have a dps race element with an enrage timer, and pretty much all the hard modes are more about dps than tanking or healing Vanilla called for geared up tanks to carry the raid while bringing in more healers could save the raid in TBC, but so far in Ulduar, stacking up the dps seems the way to go.

Kraul
06-25-2009, 10:34 AM
I have no problem putting in the effort and time to grind out gear, pug for naxx gear, etc. None whatsoever. I am simply voicing my concern over wasting my time chasing a specific role that I more than likely will not be able to fill.

The more research I do, the more I am finding:

A) PUG alot. Network.

B) More than likely, will have to play primarily as DPS and try to fill in for OT or something with a Prot offspec.

I think a lot depends on what your expectations are for a potential guild you want to be in.

If you want to be in even what I'd call a medium class raid guild that's right now clearing a good bit of Ulduar. and being on the tops of the progression charts. Then yes it's going to be a tough road to hoe.

But if you actually do enjoy tanking as much as you think you do, there are lots of guilds out there that are slightly behind in the progression model that are always looking for a good dedicated tank.

I'll use my guild as an example. We're small, casual and I'm not affraid to admit a good number of high end raiders would call us "terribads". We're currently 6/14 into U10. Recently we had a raider who started out as a hunter, but wanted to become more involved. So he rolled a warrior, leveled it fast , and showed an interest in becoming a tank. Our officers and tanking team took him under our wing and he's become a good tank in a short period of time and is now a member of our tanking team.

So if you really love tanking, stick with it. you'll eventually find the home that suits you. Getting to certain levels will just require more work and patience than others.

Widdox
06-25-2009, 10:50 AM
You won't get too far in Ulduar if your dps has that mentality. Most of the fights have a dps race element with an enrage timer, and pretty much all the hard modes are more about dps than tanking or healing Vanilla called for geared up tanks to carry the raid while bringing in more healers could save the raid in TBC, but so far in Ulduar, stacking up the dps seems the way to go.

I'm not saying that my DPS doesnt strive for high dps. I'm saying that a player that sucks at quick taunts, or picking up that add that is about to kill your healer. Can be very effective at DPSing. Im not saying they aren't situationally aware, but some people can go through their rotation, stay out of fires etc, and do a very good job. And still suck at tanking.

When I dps I constantly think to myself, wow this game is soo much easier when not tanking, because I get to ignore a lot of the abilities of fights. When I have to move out of a void zone, I don't have to concentrate on not turning my back to the boss kicking my ass, and/or dragging him to the wrong part of the room. There is just a lot more going on tanking than when I DPS.

Haps
06-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Without being in an existing guild where you can slide into a spot you first need to do a lot of work. Basically you need to do everything you possibly can to maximise your gear/gems/enchants. This means everything you can do yourself. If you apping to a guild and they see that you've done everything you can outside of raiding then that shows promise.

I had a guy asking about getting into my guild the other day. He hadn't ground out shoulder enchant rep. Was missing enchants on cloak and gloves etc. Just minor things but it adds up. I don't care that you are going to be replacing an item soon. If your too lazy to spend a few hours farming/doing dailies to enchant you current gear then I don't want you.

Once your maximized unfortunately your gonna have to join a guild as an OT and wait for your opportunity to show your stuff.

orcstar
06-29-2009, 01:47 AM
With a bit of luck and dedication I think current times are good to get your tank into raiding.

As a tank you'll have to go the long road though: heroics, nax10, nax25 and only then begin thinking about Ulduar.
Luckily on my server at least, Nax 10 and 25 are pugged on a very very regular basis. Also the tanks of the raiding guilds doing Ulduar won't do Nax anymore because being fed up with it and those PuG raids are often filled with alts of said raiders.

But.......it's gona cost you.......it's time to get the cash out and get all the crafted epics (and blues if needed, the crafted epics from runed orbs might be too expensive), get enchanted to the teeth and get everything from heroics you can (tier tokens last if you even need them and also make sure you wear the right tabard so you can get the headenchant) and dive into raiding. The pvp stamina shoulder enchant is very good, so even without hodir rep you should get them enchanted.

I'd advise to primarily focus on heavily stacking stamina while being critimmune because healers these days won't go oom. Good starters are obsidian sanctum and then Nax. (I would have said VoA previously but Emalan can be a bit hard.)

Good luck..............but be prepared to run into the Horribad PuGs once in a while. Don't let it get your spirit down though.

Daavos
06-29-2009, 10:01 AM
Pug heroic 5s and 10s. You will meet more players and they'll add you to their friends list.

If you join a pug 10 Nax/Uld ask if they run it on the same night/time every week?

Join a guild as a dps, and offer to tank when ever needed. Guilds are more likey to externally recuit dps (and healers) and internally recuit tanks.

Uslock
06-30-2009, 07:03 AM
Thanks for all of the replies guys, great advice. Seems like the few key terms are:

-If you don't invest the time in yourself, why should a Guild?
-Keep on truckin. Don't get discouraged by horrid PuGs :)
-If the Tank dies, its the healer's fault. If the healer dies,it's the tanks fault, and if the DPS dies, it's the DPS fault. (this last was an obvious joke :) )

I'm pretty motivated actually to gear up preNaxx. I've read some great guides on getting AH/Quest reward blues to start out, which heroics to pug to try for some drops. I also read a few guides for instances (tentonhammers has a great UK heroic guide), boss strats etc. I started watching some Naxx videos but decided to hold off for now. I'd rather get heroics on the mind first and work my way to Naxx ready. Once I learn the fights for heroics, I'll move over to Naxx videos/guides.

Plus, with the proposes faction changes soon, that opens up a whole new side I could transfer to, to fill a tanking need. Some view it as bad (which it can be), but regardless, if Blizz wants it to happen it will. Might as well make the best of it and view it as a glass half full :) Blueberries in plate could look nice ;)

Tankasaurus1337
06-30-2009, 10:43 AM
I had the same problem as you about a month ago.
My first 80 toon. an 80 protection warrior. I had no guild and no gear.
Really all you can do is get all your pre-naxx gear as fast as you can. And then sit in guild recruitment and wait for that one guild that JUST started raiding and what-not. that way you can come in and swoop up the MT spot over a little bit of time.

minrog
06-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Naxx 10 is easier than any heroics and a more efficient way to gear up. Spend 1kg on some crafted tanking gear and find a Naxx 10 PUG. See if you can get into a PUG that is being led by a player from a decent raiding guild so the run won't suck. Just skip heroic dungeons unless you are practicing rotations or need some reputation for an enchant.

I have gotten 25 epic drops from Naxx 10 in 2 runs. Admittedly some of those are off set stuff for a Paladin (holy/ret gear). I was nearly fully geared as a tank on the first run and would have been able to tank Naxx 25 if I had felt like it.

Snippy
07-09-2009, 10:49 AM
Sooo everyone here is happy and optimistic. I don't want crush all that but I do want to tell you the reality of things.

Feel free to armory me: Steph on Lothar. I have pretty nice gear, I know my class, I have a nice dps set as well. I've been looking around at guilds for a few weeks now, I've had 2 bites, and neither is a fit for me. Getting into a tanking role in a guild is hard. Even when you're well geared and know your class, you will be hard pressed to find an opening.

Many guilds do recruit internally (as was noted). They'd prefer to have someone they know is competent do it, rather than take the chance on someoen who might not be so competent and give them headaches.

Also note that there are ALOT of people who want to tank. As such, they're lurking around as an offspec gathering their tank gear as tanks don't need it and will be ready and able to fill a tanking role with a higher gear score than you have. This is appealing to alot of guilds. "Oh look both are newer tanks but this one has gear... we'll take that one!"

You are going to have to start at the bottem! Have perfect attendance wherever you go! Be ready and able to offspec into dps at a moment's notice! And you have to already be a born leader. If you can't help direct things and don't have the balls to do the pulls on trash yourself, your guild is gonna get frustrated.

Network! Alot of high end guilds pug their alts through Naxx 25. Get a reputation for yourself that you're a competent leader. LEAD the group, start it yourself and fill it out appropriately. If you can do this, you'll catch attention.


And lastly, be ready to server transfer to get into a guild. Tough beans there, but there just aren't tanking spots all over the place...

Inaara
07-09-2009, 11:07 AM
I would say that getting into a raiding guild as a tank is the hardest position to go for. Most guild have established MT's and OT's that have been in that position for a long time. The MT is usually also an officer or the GM of a guild. Speaking personally as the MT and GM of my guild, I am VERY critical of tank apps that I recieve and will usually deny an app if I see one thing that I don't like. If you're improperly gemmed, chanted, specced or lazy with your gear it's an auotmatic denial as I believe it shows a lack of understanding of your class.

Since I have a few alts, one of them being a healer, I'll usually take a prospective recruit to a heroic, then have them come on a alt raid to judge DPS, TPS and reaction time. If i'm not impressed then it's a no go.

Keep in mind that many people share my mentality. My best suggestion would be to get into a fresh/casual guild that's still running Naxx/OS/Maly and getting their feet wet in Ulduar. Get the gear to make yourself more appealing to a bigger more serious guild and if you like your current guild, you can always stay with them. Not every player has the same expectations/desire for what they want out of the game. You need to find a guild that suits you best.

Chasey
07-12-2009, 02:06 AM
I read through this tread and from personal experience like most others who have posted here I can offer a few pointers.
-Being fresh to lvl80 you need do YOUR best to gear yourself up. You can count on your guild for a bit of help but hit the LFG and pug to get gear if you can.
This will do 2 things, help improve your skill because we all know pugs are totally willing to let the tank get aggro and pull at the tanks pace, right? :D
It will also allow you to network your skills and pick up on guilds looking for a tank or even melee DPS which will get your foot in the door.

-Grab DPS gear if you can and when you can it will allow you to be more versatile, putting out good dps is a plus to allow you to run, even if you aren't tanking you can get the "stuff" the tanks at the time don't want.

-Stick with it. Check out your realm forums, mmo-champ forums, WOW recruitment forums and sooner or later you will find the guild you want.

Being a tank is fun, what you choose to do but if you want to get the spot you covet you need to put in some time on the bench or in a differnt spot.

Best of luck!