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Tarigar
06-19-2009, 08:03 PM
You need to have gmail to test this. You insert your values on the first page the calc will pop out on the 2nd. It will incorporate buffs that you would see in a raid. I have also included a separate buffs with approx uptime of mongoose and bladeward to see what the overall avoidance gain would be. The bladeward only assumes one stack and does not account for procs.

There is separate calculation pages for Deathknights, Warriors, and Paladins.

Avoidance Spreadsheets (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rI8rEZZtUwWaOX_9djxU0jQ&hl=en)

Note:This is only for avoidance and does not assume Boss level

EDIT: Thank you to Satrina for the base values.

Updated: So you can enter your naked Dodge, Parry, and Miss. For Nightelfs add 2% miss to talents or base.

Updated: Can now specify DK runeforging

Updated: Has 3.2 Calculations as well.

Lizana
06-19-2009, 08:38 PM
One problem right off the bat, set def, dodge and everything to Zero, set Agi to 73. Now we all should know for a warrior 73.529412 agi = 1% dodge and the calculator properly says 73 agi would give 0.9928 Dodge from Agility, but then it also calculates that .9928 % dodge would give 1.03% Dodge after Diminishing Returns. You know i havent studied much about DR... but to my knowledge DR should never increase your avoidance amount greater than the normal value.

Tarigar
06-19-2009, 08:40 PM
One problem right off the bat, set def, dodge and everything to Zero, set Agi to 73. Now we all should know for a warrior 73.529412 agi = 1% dodge and the calculator properly says 73 agi would give 0.9928 Dodge from Agility, but then it also calculates that .9928 % dodge would give 1.03% Dodge after Diminishing Returns. You know i havent studied much about DR... but to my knowledge DR should never increase your avoidance amount greater than the normal value.

You rounded

And it is rounding as well. You should try adding real values.

Lizana
06-19-2009, 08:41 PM
I rounded what? I am posting strait off your spreadsheet..

Tarigar
06-19-2009, 08:46 PM
If you go 73 and not 73.529412 then you rounded. And this was data pulled from Satrina's Dr thread the formulas match hers. But try inserting real values into the formula. Also you have to realize that the agi-dodge% is not accurate because it goes even further than the 6th decimal place. Anytime you cut off values it will throw off calculations :).

Lizana
06-19-2009, 09:36 PM
I am talking about the part where you have a person input their value, I input 73, and according to your sheet it gives 1.03% dodge after DR. I am not rounding, i am adding in a legit number of possible agi you could be adding. The dodge after DR value is incorrect in its calculation because it is saying .9928 % dodge becomes 1.03 when DR is calculated and this is false.

Zyffyr
06-19-2009, 09:37 PM
Tarigar, You really need to reread Lizana's post. You clearly stopped after you saw "73" and "73.529412 agi = 1% dodge".

The concern noted isn't that 73 AGI showed .9928, as Lizana noted that .9928 is the correct value.

The concern is that your Diminishing Returns calculation says that .9928 nominal is being converted to 1.03 after DR.

Whether or not such a concern is even worth worrying about is a different issue.

Tarigar
06-19-2009, 09:41 PM
I am talking about the part where you have a person input their value, I input 73, and according to your sheet it gives 1.03% dodge after DR. I am not rounding, i am adding in a legit number of possible agi you could be adding. The dodge after DR value is incorrect in its calculation because it is saying .9928 % dodge becomes 1.03 when DR is calculated and this is false.

The calculation is correct unless someone elses math is wrong. This is also not intended to calculate what 1% dodge in comparison to agility the intent behind the spreadsheet is to calculate the actual avoidance you would gain by equipping specific pieces of gear.

If you think my math is wrong then please show me the correct math :).

Satrina
06-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Lizana: The DR curves for dodge and parry do give increasing returns when your rating is under about 100 and/or you have no (or very low defense). You could have seen that in the DR post (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html). Just a quirk of the math.

Tarigar: You do have some small errors in your spreadsheet. I hate the google spreadsheet like nothing else and it's late, so I'll look at it more tomorrow and reply to your PM.

Edit:

All classes have a different Defense rating-skill ratio and deathknights have different parry and dodge caps. I have used live data to test this.
I'm interested in seeing (and I'm sure Whitetooth would be too) the data you collected to deduce that all three classes suddenly have different defense conversion numbers. If that's true, it is a very recent change. Same with caps - warriors, paladins, and death knights all shared the same caps in testing for 3.0, so again that would be a very recent change.

Edit2: I can exactly reproduce armoury dodge and parry numbers using same defense rating conversion and cap values for me, our prot paladin, and our dk tank. Suggest you re-think the above statement and check your maths. A good starting place is to not use the exact converted defense skill. The game truncates all decimals (not rounding: 142.9232 counts as 142.) Now really for bed!

Lizana
06-20-2009, 12:05 AM
Thanks Satrina, i must have forgotten that somewhere along the way ( also i hate calculating DR on avoidance :P)

Also has the miss DR been verified for the other classes besides warriors. I remember the testing done to prove warrior miss DR, but havent been able to find a confirmed test for pally or DK miss DR

Satorri
06-20-2009, 04:41 AM
I was going to say, according to numbers I've seen courtesy of EJ, all the plate wearers have the same Dodge and Parry caps. Where did you find info suggesting otherwise? I haven't remotely tested it myself, so I can only tout other listings. =)

Satrina
06-20-2009, 09:15 AM
Stoneskin Gargoyle is a special case
- It adds 25 defense skill directly, and does not add any rating
- Its 1% gain of dodge/parry/miss are not subject to diminishing returns

If you have a deathknight with 550 defense that has rune of stoneskin gargoyle, you do not use the +150 defense as the base for your DR calculations, but instead remove the 25 from SSG and calculate from 125 defense skill, then add the extra 1% dodge, parry, and miss when you add the rest of the non-diminished avoidances.

Another thing that I need to remember to add to the avoidance DR article is the base dodge values, as they vary with class:
Warrior, Deathknight = 3.463600
Paladin = 3.268500
Druid = 4.951000

Satrina
06-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Here is a step by step for getting the correct values, using my current armoury:

142 defense skill
335 dodge rating
221 parry rating
22 agility from gear (lulz)
113 agility when naked
3.463600 base dodge for a warrior
73.529412 agility/1% dodge for a warrior
k = 0.956
39.34799 dodge rating/1% dodge undiminished
49.18499 parry rating/1% parry undiminished
I have 5/5 deflection and 5/5 anticipation

Dodge
Undiminished dodge = anticipation + base + dodge from naked agility
= 5.00 + 3.4636 + (113/73.529412)
= 10.000400%

Pre-diminished dodge = dodge from defense + dodge from rating + doge from agility on gear
= 142 * 0.04 + 335/39.347990 + 22/73.529412
= 14.492977%

Diminished dodge = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/88.129021 + 0.956/14.492977)
= 12.934940%

Total dodge = 10.000400 + 12.934940
= 22.93534% (armoury shows 22.94%)

Parry
Undiminished parry = deflection + base
= 5.000000 + 5.000000
= 10.000000%

Pre-diminished parry = parry from defense + parry from rating
= 142 * 0.04 + 221/49.184990
= 10.173241%

Diminished parry = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/47.003525 + 0.956/10.173241)
= 8.677014%

Total parry = 10.000000 + 8.677014
= 18.677014% (armoury shows 18.68%)

Miss
Undiminished miss = base
= 5.000000%

Pre-diminished miss = miss from defense
= 142 * 0.04
= 5.680000%

Diminished miss = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/16.000000 + 0.956/5.680000)
= 4.332571%

Total miss = 5.000000 + 4.332571
= 9.332571%

Lizana
06-20-2009, 09:38 AM
I used the base dodge i had completely naked(4.96). I know it is factoring in base agility as well.

That wouldn't be different from race to race would it?

And I realised I need to remove the 25 from SSG their total defense as i was using their defense rating and that's where it screwed up my math.

Base agi is different from race to race. Also your not factoring in NE avoidance anywhere or giving the option to.

Tarigar
06-20-2009, 09:41 AM
Base agi is different from race to race. Also your not factoring in NE avoidance anywhere or giving the option to.

You can specify 2% miss on the talent portion to make up for the NE avoidance.

Satrina
06-20-2009, 09:42 AM
Base dodge varies on class, base agility on race.

Here's a deathknight (not our guild's since he is not in tank gear now, just a random DK)
(The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draka&n=Necrose))

Has stoneskin gargoyle
117 defense skill
483 dodge rating
527 parry rating
134 agility from gear
110 agility when naked
3.463600 base dodge for a deathknight
73.529412 agility/1% dodge for a deathknight
k = 0.956
39.34799 dodge rating/1% dodge undiminished
49.18499 parry rating/1% parry undiminished
Has 5/5 anticipation

Dodge
Undiminished dodge = anticipation + base + dodge from naked agility + stoneskin gargoyle
= 5.00 + 3.4636 + (110/73.529412) + 1
= 10.959600%

Pre-diminished dodge = dodge from defense + dodge from rating + doge from agility on gear
= 117 * 0.04 + 483/39.347990 + 134/73.529412
= 18.777487%

Diminished dodge = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/88.129021 + 0.956/18.777487)
= 16.061927%

Total dodge = 10.959600 + 16.061927
= 27.021527% (armoury shows 27.02%)

Parry
Undiminished parry = base + stoneskin gargoyle
= 5.000000 + 1.000000
= 6.000000%

Pre-diminished parry = parry from defense + parry from rating
= 117 * 0.04 + 527/49.184990
= 15.394651

Diminished parry = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/47.003525 + 0.956/15.394651)
= 11.994076%

Total parry = 6.000000 + 11.994076
= 17.994076% (armoury shows 17.99%)

Miss
Undiminished miss = base + stoneskin gargoyle
= 5.000000 + 1.000000
= 6.000000%

Pre-diminished miss = miss from defense
= 117 * 0.04
= 4.680000%

Diminished miss = 1/(1/c + k/pre-diminished)
= 1/(1/16.000000 + 0.956/4.680000)
= 3.748498

Total miss = 6.000000 + 3.748498
= 9.748498%

Tarigar
06-20-2009, 09:45 AM
Base dodge varies on class, base agility on race.

Here's a deathknight (not our guild's since he is not in tank gear now, just a ranom DK)
(The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draka&n=Necrose))

<snip> - please don't quote walls of text ;)


Yeah I realised the rune was throwing me off yesterday and realised it when comparing satorri's and the dk from my guild.

Satrina
06-20-2009, 09:54 AM
All good then!

Tarigar
06-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Updated so that way it will round down when doing the defense rating-skill conversion.

Satorri
06-21-2009, 05:04 AM
Thanks for writing all that out Satrina, I don't often fret the avoidance calculations but it's really nice to see it with the numbers. =)