PDA

View Full Version : 3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?



Drayz
06-19-2009, 12:12 AM
Hi,

Long time reader, first time poster (sry for my bad english i'm french :D )

So 3.2 :

Frost Presence: 10% bonus health reduced to 6% bonus stamina.

Icebound Fortitude: Cooldown increased to 2 minutes.

Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%.

Toughness: This talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%, placing it in line with similar abilities of other classes.

i don't understand why they nerfed our stamina bonus ?
So now droodtank > dk tank ?
prot pal > all ?

Rialév
06-19-2009, 12:25 AM
if that is your outlook on the 4 tanking classes, then you are already beyond help. A dogmatic view of which tank is better is either a way to avoid trying to do better, or a way of simply whining.

Let me ask you something.

Have you struggled thus far?

If you answered yes, then you can stop reading and continue practicing.

If you answered no, then you can continue reading and I can say that you probably know what you are doing, and I can tell you now that... no this is not a huge nerf.

Mathematically the change in frost presence does not do much to your EH.

IBF's Cooldown was increased by a minute. Fine, that's a change I'm willing to take due to the array of other cooldowns we already have.

The change in toughness is something that I expected to happen. 5% less armor is less of a nerf than our previous frost presence nerf which ALSO contributed more damage... but very little. This one is fractions of that.

If it's a nerf to you, then you are lost.

It's a class change... Death Knights, regardless of how long this game has been out, are the newest class to WoW, if you did not expect class changes, then you haven't been playing long.

And I apologize for the caustic nature of this response, but as a lot of people know, I hate hearing the word "nerf"

Aside from that, it's not a big change to the Death Knight as far as those mechanics are concerned... I'm not exactly thrilled about having to spec yet again... i hate it when I do that, because I always end up paying 50 gold anyway for that one stupid talent point I accidentally spent in the wrong place.

But if you're a tank, do what the other tanks do, rather than say, "yep we're nerfed... that tank is better than me..." Try to work around the changes... which are small anyway, granted I'm not particularly thrilled about losing 3% of my stamina, but it's not major. The other trees don't even get a stamina bonus, so you should be happy that you get one at all.

Broly
06-19-2009, 12:53 AM
I agree those nerfs suck, but then again all nerfs do. If you look at the actual amount of hp and armor loss it's just to bring us more in line with other tanks. Compared to a warrior, druid and paladin of around equal gear, I either have more health, armor or avoidance. The ot in my guild is very similarly geared yet I have over 6k more health, not to mention more armor, avoidance and better cooldowns.

They're just trying to make tanks interchangeable, it's understandable, Besides if they're that bad we can all QQ like the other tanks did till we get buffs =).

Madoxx
06-19-2009, 02:56 AM
Nerfs suck big time for any class , but tbh ive played a warrior tank since wow began and now i am a DK ,nerfs come and go if you tank you tank and live with it and find a way to work with them some don't and move on .

Vlad
06-19-2009, 05:43 AM
if that is your outlook on the 4 tanking classes, then you are already beyond help. A dogmatic view of which tank is better is either a way to avoid trying to do better, or a way of simply whining.

Let me ask you something.

Have you struggled thus far?

If you answered yes, then you can stop reading and continue practicing.

If you answered no, then you can continue reading and I can say that you probably know what you are doing, and I can tell you now that... no this is not a huge nerf.

Mathematically the change in frost presence does not do much to your EH.

IBF's Cooldown was increased by a minute. Fine, that's a change I'm willing to take due to the array of other cooldowns we already have.

The change in toughness is something that I expected to happen. 5% less armor is less of a nerf than our previous frost presence nerf which ALSO contributed more damage... but very little. This one is fractions of that.

If it's a nerf to you, then you are lost.

It's a class change... Death Knights, regardless of how long this game has been out, are the newest class to WoW, if you did not expect class changes, then you haven't been playing long.

And I apologize for the caustic nature of this response, but as a lot of people know, I hate hearing the word "nerf"

Aside from that, it's not a big change to the Death Knight as far as those mechanics are concerned... I'm not exactly thrilled about having to spec yet again... i hate it when I do that, because I always end up paying 50 gold anyway for that one stupid talent point I accidentally spent in the wrong place.

But if you're a tank, do what the other tanks do, rather than say, "yep we're nerfed... that tank is better than me..." Try to work around the changes... which are small anyway, granted I'm not particularly thrilled about losing 3% of my stamina, but it's not major. The other trees don't even get a stamina bonus, so you should be happy that you get one at all.

Err just a couple of things.. first off the guy didn't seem to be whining to me, merely stated some facts then expressed he didn't understand why the changes were so great. He's not alone.
Yes you are being caustic when it's not required, yes it's a nerf.. Don't apologise for being caustic, just exercise your ability to edit uninformed remarks before you post... then you won't have to apologise.

I have, and I'm sure a number of other people have noticed quite a difference to the incoming damage changes from the last armour nerf (20 - 22k shot were suddenly hitting for 25's), now since I'll lose 3k+ health and another 1k armour I'm sure we will notice quite a significant change if 3.2 goes live with these changes... something you'll find out when you eventually get to tank 25 Uld on your DK.

Personally I'm happy with the changes to the other tanking classes, it seems pallies have done well and Warriors are still waiting for a meaningful change, but to be honest there doesn't seem to be an argument to have a DK tank a really hard hitting boss since Pally block will provide excellent mitigation, Warriors will also but to a lesser extent, Druids have a great 1 min mitigation CD and DK's will be pretty horrible to heal by comparision.

The biggest problem at the moment is there seems to be a drive to nerf the tanking classes down to whatever is the lowest common denominator at the time. Look out Druids :(
It's possible that this is happening because content is being cleared faster than the new content development roadmap? I don't know..

Satorri
06-19-2009, 08:47 AM
Wait, Rialev, maybe I'm missing something, how does the Frost Pres not come out as a big drop in EH? It's 4% of your health, basically, lopped off.

We're getting nerfed, though to be fair I don't think it is from a point of parity. We're going to be weaker survival tanks than we are currently, but not probably any weaker than the other classes. My most frequent tanking partner is a prot warrior who's been generally unhappy with the fact that in comparable gear I have more health, more armor, and stronger CDs. Now he gets a suped up blocking gear and I'm losing a big chunk of health and armor, and the ability to use IBF as often as I do.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 09:17 AM
As has been said. We're losing 4% health. It's not HUGE, but it will be a noticeable difference. In addition, the change to Icebound Fortitude is really the only change that worries me. While the other changes suck (Frost Strike and its threat potential), they are things I can work around. However, without a shield, Icebound Fortitude has been what has saved me in many situations during high damage fights. It seems to me that the only message being sent out with that particular change is that DKs are not meant to tank certain fights. If so, then where does our role lie? I'm not going to give up my DK tanking, but I'm worried about my survivability after 3.2

Squirrelnut
06-19-2009, 09:37 AM
They're just trying to make tanks interchangeable, it's understandable, Besides if they're that bad we can all QQ like the other tanks did till we get buffs =).

Not really the case, warriors have been QQing about our DPS, AOE, Rage mechanics, Heroic Strike carpal tunnel, etc for some time now and once again the devs have decided to change.... armored to the teeth slightly.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sigh

They don't listen to QQing much

Nez
06-19-2009, 09:41 AM
The longer cooldown on IBF is the most concerning for me, its the CD's that keep us DKS alive when we get pasted hard. So we will just have to be a bit more careful with their use. Our safety cushion will be a bit smaller with the reduced HP and armor loss. Our guild has pretty much tanked everything with every tank class, they all have their special benefits and tricks.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 09:53 AM
More than anything, the CD on Icebound Fortitude is what worries me too.

Moomofo
06-19-2009, 09:54 AM
Well I think the reason DK's had such a large advantage at the start was to get guilds using them as tanks. Now that they're geared up and some are main tanks it's fine to bring them in line with other tanks.

I don't 'think' you'll be under other tanks in viability after 3.2 though we'll have to see with the block changes also. If you are under other tanks it'll be first time in wotlk so you can always whine a bit like we all did and eventually it'll get fixed.
I think in similar gear warriors and DK's should be fairly even after patch.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 10:00 AM
Well I think the reason DK's had such a large advantage at the start was to get guilds using them as tanks. Now that they're geared up and some are main tanks it's fine to bring them in line with other tanks.

I don't 'think' you'll be under other tanks in viability after 3.2 though we'll have to see with the block changes also. If you are under other tanks it'll be first time in wotlk so you can always whine a bit like we all did and eventually it'll get fixed.
I think in similar gear warriors and DK's should be fairly even after patch.

Thing is, even before 3.2, we found that our Paladin tank, who was -not- better geared than either DK tank, was far better for tanking someone like XT simply because he took far less damage. By changing our mitigation cooldowns to be longer, DK tanks will take far more damage than they did before, which was already quite a bit. :/

Basridire
06-19-2009, 10:02 AM
So. After all the nerfs, I am going to guess DKs will have roughly 2k more HP if not just even with War/Pal, and only about 1k more armor than they do.

And they have a shield and buffed SBV.

Best tank to worst tank in one fell swoop.

-Edit. I'm now going to create a comic strip portraying a factory with four conveyors. Each for the tanking classes, and each one of those lines is going to be spitting out an exact copy of all the rest.

/thumbsup

Theotherone
06-19-2009, 10:08 AM
Just curious, as math has never been a strong suit, is it just a 4% difference or on a point for point basis is it larger? Right now the bonus is a straight 10% of health; the bonus will change to 6% of stamina? Seems it would be greater than 4%, since the bonus will no longer be on ground up health, but only take into account that portion of the health increased by stamina and increase that lower base number by a lower percentage.

In the end, the nerfing is getting tiresome; at least for me, I get used to what my toon can do, and how certain things interact, then they change it requiring a readjustment. Why have 4 tanking classes, if all Blizz wants is parity - it's like socialism.

Squirrelnut
06-19-2009, 10:11 AM
So. After all the nerfs, I am going to guess DKs will have roughly 2k more HP if not just even with War/Pal, and only about 1k more armor than they do.

And they have a shield and buffed SBV.

Best tank to worst tank in one fell swoop.

SBV is garbage and most War tanks don't use it for fights other then trash. You likely still have more HP, you still have more armor, you still have more aoe potential, why r u QQing again? DK's will simply have to improve at their class/rotation/gear like everyone else instead of relying on mechanics giving them unfair advantages.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 10:20 AM
Just curious, as math has never been a strong suit, is it just a 4% difference or on a point for point basis is it larger? Right now the bonus is a straight 10% of health; the bonus will change to 6% of stamina? Seems it would be greater than 4%, since the bonus will no longer be on ground up health, but only take into account that portion of the health increased by stamina and increase that lower base number by a lower percentage.

In the end, the nerfing is getting tiresome; at least for me, I get used to what my toon can do, and how certain things interact, then they change it requiring a readjustment. Why have 4 tanking classes, if all Blizz wants is parity - it's like socialism.

It is actually more than 4%, but not so much more than 4% to consider 4% a wrong estimate. It will reduce hp from base hp and from flasks, but those contribute to a much smaller portion of your hp than your stamina anyways.

@ Squirrelnut - Mechanical advantage? If you mean cooldown management, then fine. But we couldn't face roll as tanks, we had to effectively manage our cooldowns on fights or risk dying in particularly tricky situations. After all is said and done, we will not end up as the best tanks, though I wouldn't go so far as to say we are the worst. How can you possibly say that SBV is junk when it is getting DOUBLED, have you done the math? show me the evidence that doubling SBV will do next to nothing for you guys. Cooldowns were the DK compensation for not having a shield. If anything, it made tanking for DKs a bit trickier since we couldnt rely on our shield which has 100% uptime.

Stengel
06-19-2009, 10:27 AM
show me the evidence that doubling SBV will do next to nothing for you guys. In total, I have 77 bonus block value from gear on my warrior.
I also have 13% chance to block, after subtracting block rating from my less-than-optimal-gear.
In raid buffed I block around 1300-1500.
With talents I'll gain 100 block value from the patch. That isn't going to change anything.

With Shield Block + Glyph of Blocking both active, about 168 more.

Satisfied?

Squirrelnut
06-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Yes I was mainly referring to previous mechanical advantage from cooldown possibilities however 6k more health for equal or slightly lesser gear, higher armor and aoe threat were also advantages. The issue with SBV is that it simply does not provide a level of mitigation to make it worthwhile to switch gear pieces and lose our other important tanking stats to take advantage of the SBV change. Discussion of the topic has begun at: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51597-3-2-block-value.html

If SBV were on the gear which we already use then perhaps it would be more of a change however many tanks to not use gear with SBV on it for progression content thus the change has no effect unless we switch gear pieces at far too high of a cost to other avoidance/health/threat stats

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 10:29 AM
In total, I have 70 bonus block value from gear on my warrior.
I also have 13% chance to block.
In raid buffed I block around 1300-1500.

Blocking 70*1.3 = 91 more isn't going to change anything.

For the same item budget that was spent on that block rating, I could have more avoidance which would actually matter.

Where is the 1.3 coming from? That doesn't look like double to me, but my math skills are iffy at best so I'd like to know why it's 1.3 instead of 2.

Basridire
06-19-2009, 10:31 AM
SBV is garbage and most War tanks don't use it for fights other then trash. You likely still have more HP, you still have more armor, you still have more aoe potential, why r u QQing again? DK's will simply have to improve at their class/rotation/gear like everyone else instead of relying on mechanics giving them unfair advantages.

Likely is not certainty, and if I do have more, its laughable. 1k armor is NOT better than having a shield. Even if you dont stack SBV and you avoid it like the plague. The SBV of a warrior was generally what? 1K? Make that 2k now. You cant tell me 2k off any given hit is worse than 1k armor, thats what? 2% less damage if that? And finally, I'd like you to redirect your attention to the UB change. Better AoE huh?... Blood DKs now have what. Blood Boil and Pestilence. Frost doesn't take that big of a hit but who is speccing frost anymore? Unholy now has. Blood Boil Pestilence and Wandering Plague, something easily scoffed at.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 10:33 AM
Yes I was mainly referring to previous mechanical advantage from cooldown possibilities however 6k more health for equal or slightly lesser gear, higher armor and aoe threat were also advantages. The issue with SBV is that it simply does not provide a level of mitigation to make it worthwhile to switch gear pieces and lose our other important tanking stats to take advantage of the SBV change. Discussion of the topic has begun at: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51597-3-2-block-value.html

If SBV were on the gear which we already use then perhaps it would be more of a change however many tanks to not use gear with SBV on it for progression content thus the change has no effect unless we switch gear pieces at far too high of a cost to other avoidance/health/threat stats

I can understand that SBV is not going to be as good as cooldowns, but think about this: SBV is constant, cooldowns are not. Even with something like IB at 1 minute cooldown, there is still plenty of downtime in the minute where DKs have NOTHING other than their armor to do any sort of mitigation. For effective balancing, something that is constant should be less in value, since it provides something that a cooldown can't.

In addition, your comments on cooldowns as a mechanical advantage that make tanking easy seem to also be out of line. As mentioned before, whereas SBV is constant (all you need a shield and gear with SBV on it), cooldowns require timing, and, ultimately, to be used to their fullest potential, they need skill and knowledge of the fight. Thus, though the cooldowns provide a nicer mechanical advantage, I would argue they require more work and thought to be used effectively.

Stengel
06-19-2009, 10:37 AM
Where is the 1.3 coming from? That doesn't look like double to me, but my math skills are iffy at best so I'd like to know why it's 1.3 instead of 2.

30% bonus block from talents.

Only the stat "block value" on items is going to be doubled, nothing else. Since most of actual amount blocked comes from the shield and from strength, nothing really changes. Unless we stack block gear, but that still won't be viable in progression content.

Squirrelnut
06-19-2009, 10:38 AM
I never intended to say anything was easy; good cooldown usage requires timing and skill the same as all other talents in good tanking. My point was simply that the cooldown change was a part of DKs are being brought in line with other tanks and are not being made a non viable choice.

shoties
06-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm geared with 4pcs T8 and have only one 200 ilvl. Xt-002 swing me arround 22-26k dmg in blood barrier, overal damage taken is about 200k dmg more than pala tank who dont have any T8.

Rialév
06-19-2009, 11:53 AM
Wait, Rialev, maybe I'm missing something, how does the Frost Pres not come out as a big drop in EH? It's 4% of your health, basically, lopped off.

We're getting nerfed, though to be fair I don't think it is from a point of parity. We're going to be weaker survival tanks than we are currently, but not probably any weaker than the other classes. My most frequent tanking partner is a prot warrior who's been generally unhappy with the fact that in comparable gear I have more health, more armor, and stronger CDs. Now he gets a suped up blocking gear and I'm losing a big chunk of health and armor, and the ability to use IBF as often as I do.

Well as much as i hate to say it, try thinking like a warrior for a minute.

If anyone remembers how many changes, buffs, and nerfs this class got during vanilla...

At any rate, we're undergoing a damage control phase right now. Blizzard made the class... made it far too powerful in comparison with other classes, and is now in a big hurry to get to where it should be.

In the ideal world, no tank should be better than any other tank for any reason. Do I think that can be done? No, of course not. One class will always have a leg up in certain situations. However, I do think blizzard is doing a much better job at actually balancing the playing field to what each tank's proposed abilities should be.

Am I greatly thrilled with the changes? Hell no, i'm definitely not happy about it. But I'll do what I did last patch, and the patch before, and the one before that, and so on and so forth. I'll continue to strive to be the best regardless of the changes. And though it's a poor example, there were a couple enhancement shamans in the top rated brackets of arena during the burning crusade despite everyone else saying that it was impossible...

In a tanking perspective, we're far from being a bad choice in tanks regardless of how strong this patch will effect the DK. And most of you I'm sure will do exactly what you did last patch, and did your best to overcome any changes. And in the long run, it's going to make us a better choice in tank from a player standpoint rather than a class standpoint.

Nunes
06-19-2009, 11:57 AM
My priest is lvl77.

People always need a healer right?

Warwench
06-19-2009, 12:05 PM
Likely is not certainty, and if I do have more, its laughable. 1k armor is NOT better than having a shield. Even if you dont stack SBV and you avoid it like the plague. The SBV of a warrior was generally what? 1K? Make that 2k now. You cant tell me 2k off any given hit is worse than 1k armor, thats what? 2% less damage if that?

it does not double SBV.

it doubles the block value from jewelery, trinkets, armor and capes.

Most Warriors do not choose to have block value on those items because as a itemization stat, BV is useless, it doesn't scale. Our 4 piece T8 has about 166 SBV on it, so double that to 332, still useless. if we could trade that 166 for 166 points in more useful stats we would. double a useless stat is still a useless stat in this case... until they fix block. By the way, we also have to use a second useless stat just to make the first one work, block rating. SBV is also useless against magic damage.

also, armor scales.

It reduces damage by a %, so the amount reduced on a big hit is more than a small hit. blocking doesnt, if i block for 2K on a 2K hit, yay no damage, if i block for 2K on a 25K hit, yeah still taking 23K damage. On large slow melee hits, Armor > Blocking.

Inaara
06-19-2009, 12:05 PM
The nerfs are huge.... the nerfs are heartbreaking.... on the upside, they are buffing my warrior's block right?

Goodbye The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Boulderfist&n=Drakiir) , welcome back The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Boulderfist&n=Inaara) . . . . . . .

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 12:22 PM
Think of it this way as well. Paladins get a shield and Divine Protection, which will be roughly equivalent to Icebound Fortitude after the "change". In addition, although Warriors do not seem to have a similar ability (I don't know them that well, I had to look through their talents on slightly) they do get 60% dam reduction every 5 minutes in addition to the fact that they have a shield combined with any other mitigation abilities they likely have.

As has been noted, I have no problem being brought in line with other classes. And I'm STILL going to play and attempt to play as well as I can despite the change. I just find the Icebound Fortitude change excessive and unneeded, it may, in fact, be something that breaks many DK tanks and could easily be the reason many DKs fall in some battles. Having 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 1 minute is key when we lack a shield, and when our armor value continues to drop significantly with the last patch and this upcoming one.

4%+ health lost, sucks, but it's fine and we can work around it. The same with most any of the other changes. The Frost Strike change sucks, but hey, it wasn't as if I was suffering in the threat area anyways, I imagine I will now just have to be a bit more careful there. I don't like the dual wield stuff, I don't think dual wielding is yet ready to be a more viable tanking spec than two-handers, but I'd love to be proven wrong, I'd love to dual wield tank. But, overall, the only change that really worries me is the cooldown to Icebound Fortitude. I'm really quite worried about where this leads and whether or not I can make up for it in other areas.

Esch
06-19-2009, 12:39 PM
Just curious, as math has never been a strong suit, is it just a 4% difference or on a point for point basis is it larger? Right now the bonus is a straight 10% of health; the bonus will change to 6% of stamina? Seems it would be greater than 4%, since the bonus will no longer be on ground up health, but only take into account that portion of the health increased by stamina and increase that lower base number by a lower percentage.


For the sake of math:

Base DK health (nonTauren) is about 7941 with 209 stamina => 10031 HP.

First casualty of the Frost Presence change is 794 hitpoint we get off the base health. Note druid caught a similar nerf like this in... 3.0, I believe (shifting from total health to total stamina). For me, I further lose 4% health from the ~3k stamina (stacked raid buffs), or ~1200 hitpoints. All in all, I'm going to lose 2k hit points, before I add in the lost of stamina from VoTW.

Overall:
Icebound Fortitude: The nerf was coming, and anyone paying attention to Blizzard's nerfing of the Shieldwall glyph on 3.1 PTR could realize it. I'm surprised they didn't hotfix this change and decided to wait for a content patch, but I'm 99% certain this is final and definite. It's also tolerable, as proven by three other classes managing with weaker and/or longer cooldowns to succeed on all content currently. Note I said succeed, not how 'well' compared to a 3.1 DK spec.


VoTW: I find this one both frustrating and dissappointing, though I suspect it's meant to pull Blood DKs back into a more consistent hitpoint pool, even though the talent design has always been about health/healing as a form of mitigation. I suspect this is intended to get more 'variety' of DKs again. Note blizzard has been concerned by all the Unholy DKs pre 3.1, perhaps they feel Blood is too popular atm, especially in stamina stacked progression fights.


Toughness: For me and most of that mathcrafters, 1110 armor on a raidbuffed level 80 DK. Call it about 1.5% mitigation loss, roughly. I'd not even care except this is a further nerf after the Frost Presence armor reduction (from 80% to 60%) and the loss of AP from Bladed Armor. Again, blood too popular? Talent syngery is too good? Irony is that warrior Armor to the Teeth (AttT) now has the same effect of 1 AP per 36 armor... but at 3 talent points compared to the DK's 5 talent points. I consider that set up insulting given DK reliance on DPS to generate threat instead of controlled high-threat abilities.

In this case, I'ld like to see Bladed Armor reduced to the same 3 point talent, with 3 AP per 108 armor at 3/3.This suggestion would almost make 8 talent points in blood 'mandatory' for any DK build, which is a liability to the idea :(


Frost Presence: I did the math above, but frankly, this is the killer change. We have the least 'passive' mitigation (5% FP, 5% Blade Barrier --> 9.75% mitigation), and now we're losing the hitpoint advantage that compensated. If we're going to have to eat this change, we're either going to need additional mitigation (remember, no shield folks, it's avoid or get hit by an attack) or this presence will need improvement. Currently, DKs are falling behind a bit too much and blizzard is going to encourage Unholy (again) for the variety of mitigation that spec can provide.

dotJEM
06-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Am i the only one here who is concerned about the "newcomers"?

Just as last patch where we got our first "big nerf" i now again sits and stares at the notes and comments from blizzard...

Last time blizzard directly stated that they buffed DK's back in the beginning because no one wanted to heal them in heroics and so forth, but once the DK had gotten all his gear from Naxx25 and so forth, they realized he was way to powerfull, and took much less damage than other tanks...

Euhm... ok... I Can agree that i saw that trend, and i can see i still saw it far in Ulduar back then, but im just thinking, if you buffed DK's back then because they where dropping like rooks in heroics, then what are the new DK's who goes through that phase doing now?...

I don't disagree in particular that DK's had become way to powerfull in the tanking role, and that the previous "nerf" was called for, for those who had the gear, i was more concerned how it affected the lower tiers of DK's, and that what really might have been wrong about the class is the way we scale with gear. But i don't know really... I hope the concerns are unfounded....

I would really like to hear from people going through that phase, because if we are to have fresh DK tanks growing up, the class should ofc. still be able to tank at this level.

After i have been tanking past our last nerf, i could still see that i proberly was a little more solid on the bosses in Ulduar than most of my fellow tanks... But, i also know i was often thinking that it feelt about right, i wasn't to slid, nor was i to fragile... And that Shield bearers should properly be lifted to that level... Obviously i was wrong... i had to get

Regarding the SBV, as far as i know they where not happy about just increasing the value on items for SBV, they wanted to fix it in another way so it got better, and to a point where it was as good as they first thought it would be.

So why try to balance DK's around 2 classes they already know they are not happy with when we talk the way they mitigate, is the philosophy just to bring us all to the bottom and then build us up again?... i REALLY don't get why they choose to put so much energy into that, instead of actually fixing SBV so it becomes usefull, and then see what that does to the playing field.

Well thats just my thoughts... at my gear level I'm not to concerned with how i will progress further, i might not be our MT as much, but then again, i need a break. o.O

hbombs
06-19-2009, 01:01 PM
Anyone who didnt see this coming just wasnt being very realistic. Hopefully it helps put things back in order.

I'm not gonna lie I dont mind when things arent balanced. I get to dps every now and then since weve been using DKs on certain fights just to make them easier.

edit: if things keep going the way they are.. eventually they will do to tank classes like they did to profession bonuses.. make everything basically the same.

2nd edit: lol at my sig :)

RodDog
06-19-2009, 01:04 PM
I can understand that SBV is not going to be as good as cooldowns, but think about this: SBV is constant, cooldowns are not. Even with something like IB at 1 minute cooldown, there is still plenty of downtime in the minute where DKs have NOTHING other than their armor to do any sort of mitigation. For effective balancing, something that is constant should be less in value, since it provides something that a cooldown can't.


SBV is not constant, it only comes into play when you actually block an attack. The only thing a shield does is add armor and the ability to block. Most warriors probably have 16-24% chance to block depending on gear. DK's not having a shield is hardly a difference considering their armor bonus is much more impressive.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 01:12 PM
This


Overall:
Icebound Fortitude: The nerf was coming, and anyone paying attention to Blizzard's nerfing of the Shieldwall glyph on 3.1 PTR could realize it. I'm surprised they didn't hotfix this change and decided to wait for a content patch, but I'm 99% certain this is final and definite. It's also tolerable, as proven by three other classes managing with weaker and/or longer cooldowns to succeed on all content currently. Note I said succeed, not how 'well' compared to a 3.1 DK spec.


And yet here you say:


Frost Presence: I did the math above, but frankly, this is the killer change. We have the least 'passive' mitigation (5% FP, 5% Blade Barrier --> 9.75% mitigation), and now we're losing the hitpoint advantage that compensated. If we're going to have to eat this change, we're either going to need additional mitigation (remember, no shield folks, it's avoid or get hit by an attack) or this presence will need improvement. Currently, DKs are falling behind a bit too much and blizzard is going to encourage Unholy (again) for the variety of mitigation that spec can provide.

We had additional mitigation, we have currently Icebound Fortitude for 12 seconds out of every minute if we so choose. If this change goes through we lose that protective shield and take far more damage than any other tanking class in the game. Icebound Fortitude was our mitigation, it was our replacement for the shield in a way. With all of these changes, you're right, we're going to need mitigation, but we don't need something new, we just need them to not mess with Icebound Fortitude.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 01:14 PM
SBV is not constant, it only comes into play when you actually block an attack. The only thing a shield does is add armor and the ability to block. Most warriors probably have 16-24% chance to block depending on gear. DK's not having a shield is hardly a difference considering their armor bonus is much more impressive.

Not anymore, bud. We've lost a lot of that when you stack this change with the last change. In addition, Icebound Fortitude was our true mitigation answer, with this change we get screwed out of that royally. No one is saying DKs suck at tanking, that would be a ridiculous assertion. We just wonder why Blizzard has to go too far when they make adjustments. It would seem far more reasonable to take it step by step, rather than whack DKs hard with the bat just to see if they'll still be standing. I can understand many of the changes, I can't understand why they're changing Icebound Fortitude.

Daimon
06-19-2009, 01:27 PM
DK tanks: dodge, parry(worst tanking stat), armor, CD

The 80% to 60% arm nerf was deserved, i have both warr and DK and now they are even in the hit points and armor, which is totally fair and agrees the policy of equality in general situation, BUT further nerfs? why? was it necesary?
The CD are the trademark of the DKs, even more, tank spec was by excellence the frost one, now the are not only forcing you go UH but also "go UH w/o an arm and w an eye closed", totally unnecesary.
I have LS in my warr tank gliphed to 2min CD and is great, the equivalent on a DK is terrible, of a min a DK can have 20-30secs free of CD use, and thats what makes him goes through hard hitting fights then you have the armor to compensate= gone too! LOL?
But not happy w that the nerf to FS is a huge one(blocked, parried, dodged), "not only you will tank w 1 arm and 1 eye closed, now go hit like a girl too"
maybe was a nerf aimed at DPS Frost DK, but the collateral dmg went to our tanks, GJ blizz.
And BTW whoever thinks tanks classes are even now take another look at any paladin tank w a minimun of tanking knowledge, I don't like nerfs to any classes, as a GM that at the end affects my raids, but how can they think pallys need more buffs and the rest nerfs, is a slap on our faces.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 01:29 PM
No offense, but a lot of people in this thread apparently don't understand block; the amount of block on non-shield, non-trinket items is getting doubled. So regular armor (heads, chest, etc) plus rings; that is all. Since for boss gear we have to avoid that junk like the plague (because we have to give up avoidance to stack it) that's almost never going to be more than 100 or so SBV.

In my current boss tank set I have barely over 1k SBV, and I'll get into the 1100's with this change. See how it's not even worth talking about? And I don't get to block "any given attack", in my boss set I shave on average 1,333 damage off of every 6th or so melee hit (again on average, and taking critical block into account). So if a boss is hitting me for for 22k a pop that is 1.00984% extra mitigation against physical attacks (I had to go out to that many places just to show I wasn't picking 1% out of thin air).

So anyways, block does absolutely zilch on hard hitting bosses like those we find Ulduar. If DKs have identical stats to warriors plus an extra 400 hp, 400 AC, etc there can be no arguement that it will be unbalanced.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 01:40 PM
No offense, but a lot of people in this thread apparently don't understand block; the amount of block on non-shield, non-trinket items is getting doubled. So regular armor (heads, chest, etc) plus rings; that is all. Since for boss gear we have to avoid that junk like the plague (because we have to give up avoidance to stack it) that's almost never going to be more than 100 or so SBV.

In my current boss tank set I have barely over 1k SBV, and I'll get into the 1100's with this change. See how it's not even worth talking about? And I don't get to block "any given attack", in my boss set I shave on average 1,333 damage off of every 6th or so melee hit (again on average, and taking critical block into account). So if a boss is hitting me for for 22k a pop that is 1.00984% extra mitigation against physical attacks (I had to go out to that many places just to show I wasn't picking 1% out of thin air).

So anyways, block does absolutely zilch on hard hitting bosses like those we find Ulduar. If DKs have identical stats to warriors plus an extra 400 hp, 400 AC, etc there can be no arguement that it will be unbalanced.

But, as it stands, you DO have the ability to block and mitigate with a shield. DKs do not. Losing hp and armor is understandable, extending our cooldowns does not make sense. If you put DKs and Warriors at the same health and armor class, it's unbalanced in favor of Warriors and BY FAR balanced in favor of Paladins.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 01:49 PM
But, as it stands, you DO have the ability to block and mitigate with a shield. DKs do not.

Did you not see where block currently accounts for 1% of my physical mitigation against a medium-hitting Ulduar boss??? Even with a shield a warrior has less armor than an equally geared DK after the nerf. If the shields aren't letting us have better stats and block only accounts for around 1% physical mitigation (less on harder hitting bosses, more on lighter hitters) what does it matter? How do your self-heals not cover that by themselves?



Losing hp and armor is understandable, extending our cooldowns does not make sense. If you put DKs and Warriors at the same health and armor class, it's unbalanced in favor of Warriors and BY FAR balanced in favor of Paladins.

How? Right now paladins are the worst represented tanks in hard mode encounters...and the only buff they are getting is a CD change (the block "buff" does little more for them than it does for warriors). IBF was just too good. It had longer up time and was available every minute. Now your CDs are pretty much in line with other tanks and so is your mitigation. You still have better anti-magic abilities unless a warrior has the T8 4 piece set bonus (in which case they're about the same).

If anything I'm concerned that DKs need a bit more armor to help with lower level content (heroics, early Naxx) where block might actually matter, but on any Ulduar boss I can't see how DKs are going to be at much of a disadvantage compared to other tanks in survivability, unless you're ignoring my numbers in the previous post and still imagining that block does something useful.

Haltira
06-19-2009, 01:50 PM
it does not double SBV.

it doubles the block value from jewelery, trinkets, armor and capes.

Most Warriors do not choose to have block value on those items because as a itemization stat, BV is useless, it doesn't scale. Our 4 piece T8 has about 166 SBV on it, so double that to 332, still useless. if we could trade that 166 for 166 points in more useful stats we would. double a useless stat is still a useless stat in this case... until they fix block. By the way, we also have to use a second useless stat just to make the first one work, block rating. SBV is also useless against magic damage.

also, armor scales.

It reduces damage by a %, so the amount reduced on a big hit is more than a small hit. blocking doesnt, if i block for 2K on a 2K hit, yay no damage, if i block for 2K on a 25K hit, yeah still taking 23K damage. On large slow melee hits, Armor > Blocking.


Agree armor > blocking, but the thing that misses a lot of you lately is the fact that what 3.2 is about to give DK's is

Similar health, Similar Armor to worse armor in some cases and no avoidance gain, that is bothersome since than you have basically created a warrior tank without block value and called it even, ( which is where DK's are looking like they are headed right now, you need to get over your hatred towards DK's in general and actually see that if these changes go thru DK's are going to end up being worse than warriors have ever been in this expansion. Think of them as the new warrior tank but since block is shitty we remove it for DKs totally and call it even and put all other tanking stats even. In that case you can not claim blocking isnt worth something.

So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks Same health Same armor same avoidance but lack of block yeah i think DK's get it they are supposed to be a shitty tank and that you hate them for having taken your MT job from Ragnaros in MC

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 01:54 PM
Did you not see where block currently accounts for 1% of my physical mitigation against a medium-hitting Ulduar boss??? Even with a shield a warrior has less armor than an equally geared DK after the nerf. If the shields aren't letting us have better stats and block only accounts for around 1% physical mitigation (less on harder hitting bosses, more on lighter hitters) what does it matter? How do your self-heals not cover that by themselves?




How? Right now paladins are the worst represented tanks in hard mode encounters...and the only buff they are getting is a CD change (the block "buff" does little more for them than it does for warriors). IBF was just too good. It had longer up time and was available every minute. Now your CDs are pretty much in line with other tanks and so is your mitigation. You still have better anti-magic abilities unless a warrior has the T8 4 piece set bonus (in which case they're about the same).

If anything I'm concerned that DKs need a bit more armor to help with lower level content (heroics, early Naxx) where block might actually matter, but on any Ulduar boss I can't see how DKs are going to be at much of a disadvantage compared to other tanks in survivability, unless you're ignoring my numbers in the previous post and still imagining that block does something useful.

However, I'm wondering if your numbers truly speak for all Warriors and tanks that use shields out there. I see plenty of block value on gear and Warriors and Paladins eat it up. I never roll on it, of course, because I can't use it. However, Ulduar 25 is full of that sort of gear. The buff to SBV may not be a big change, but show me the math that says that shield block and mitigation from shield damage isn't useful, or is less useful than the effective armor that DKs will have after the nerf, maybe then I'll be a little less worried and a bit more optimistic about my survivability. My issue here isn't in being more powerful than other tanks, it is in the fact that we have lost much of what we had to compensate for not having a shield. Even if the shield block buff is marginal, having a shield does account for something significant. If it doesn't, then I would expect that Blizzard will do far more down the road to ensure that it does, and, when they do, where will that leave DKs?

Edit: Let me reiterate, I don't expect these changes to not go through. I do not think DK tanking is dead. However, I'm worried about how I am supposed to compensate for the loss of Icebound Fortitude uptime that I had. I really don't know where to compensate for that. I could gem for more avoidance, but then I'll lose more of my precious hp, of which I will lose a decent chunk after this change.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 02:00 PM
Agree armor > blocking, but the thing that misses a lot of you lately is the fact that what 3.2 is about to give DK's is Similar health, Similar Armor to worse armor in some cases and no avoidance gain, that is bothersome since than you have basically created a warrior tank without block value and called it even

As I showed above, even if this were true (and I have yet to see the numbers, have you?) on any sort of hard hitting boss block gives you about 1% extra mitigation. So even if your worse case scenario is true, you would be 1% worse on physical mitigation, before self-heals, CDs, etc are compared. Not exactly the end of the world.



you need to get over your hatred towards DK's in general and actually see that if these changes go thru DK's are going to end up being worse than warriors have ever been in this expansion.

No, it looks like right now it's headed for parity. I have no problem saying DKs should get an extra percent or two of their armor back if the other stats are really identical in every way before block. I also don't believe it yet, but I expect lots of real numbers to come from the PTRs soon and we'll see then.


Think of them as the new warrior tank but since block is shitty we remove it for DKs totally and call it even and put all other tanking stats even. In that case you can not claim blocking isnt worth something.

It IS worth something: 0.5%-1.5% physical mitigation depending on the boss. How often do you think that will make or break you? And again, it it comes down to that being the only difference let me be the first to say Blizz should buff your armor by 1% or so.


So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks

It IS simple math, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't being nerfed into oblivion, you are being brought back into line with the other classes. Welcome. :)

Selyndia
06-19-2009, 02:01 PM
Block Value gear is generally garbage due to itemization, even with the proposed changes for the two classes for similar, but different reasons.

For Warriors, Block Value isn't particularly strong because they need to actually block attacks to make it effective. Thus they need to give up itemization that is better spent on Expertise, Hit, Dodge, Parry or Defense on Block Value and Block Rating instead. Even with a high block value, without the Rating to go with it, it isn't terribly useful except during Shield Block up time because of the low percentage of hits that actually benefit from it.

For Paladins, while they can get the benefit of 100% uptime on blocking, they also completely waste the itemization points of any Block Rating on gear, as at 102.4% it is completely dead itemization. Thus they are not only giving up Dodge/Parry/Hit/Defense on gear that is better, they are doing so for Block Value and a dead stat that does nothing.

I pick up block value gear as a toy more often than not, simply to do heroics or trash with. For an actual boss I'm tanking, all that block value gear gets shelved back into the bag for actual relevant boss tanking stats.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 02:17 PM
1) Not all DK tanks self-heal. Death Strike is nice, but it's not in the rotation when threat is concerned and the healing from it on bosses that deal out a lot of damage is about as significant as 1% mitigation, I'd be surprised to see a Death Strike on a non-blood DK that healed for more than 1-2k tops.

2) You act as if the shield doesn't also add to your avoidance. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding shields, but if I heard correctly, they don't just mitigate, they help avoid as well. The point is, having a shield is better than not having a shield, so bringing DKs "back in line" with other tanks by making their hp and their armor values the same as other tanks is NOT balanced, ESPECIALLY when you consider the coming change to Icebound Fortitude.

I have no problem with the lost hp or armor, if they simply left Icebound Fortitude alone. That they are changing it in addition to the other changes is what bothers me. Not all tanks are in T8 gear yet, we're still trying to get there. And until we do, we're struggling for every point of hp and avoidance we can get, we don't need this much change to come at us.

It makes no sense to "correct" so much at once, that's never, ever a good idea. ever. You always take it step by step.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
However, I'm wondering if your numbers truly speak for all Warriors and tanks that use shields out there.

Then you need to read up on warrior and pally gear guides. If you gear for block on a boss fight then the DK will end up having waaaaaay more avoidance. WAY. You can't stack avoidance and block at the same time. There's a term for a warrior who stacks block against a hard hitting boss:

Dead.


I see plenty of block value on gear and Warriors and Paladins eat it up. I never roll on it, of course, because I can't use it. However, Ulduar 25 is full of that sort of gear.

Of course we do; it's good gear for trash and for lower level content. Also fun to use for making big shield slams when questing. Since our DPS is lower it's the only fun we get there. But I assure you, no progression warrior is wearing block gear on a hard-hitting Ulduar boss unless it's all he/she has in that slot.


The buff to SBV may not be a big change, but show me the math that says that shield block and mitigation from shield damage isn't useful, or is less useful than the effective armor that DKs will have after the nerf, maybe then I'll be a little less worried and a bit more optimistic about my survivability.

I already did above. I have a bit over 1k SBV in my tank set for bosses. If I had much more than that I would have significantly less avoidance and would die more often (it's just the way itemization works; we don't get block for free, we have to give up other stats if we want to gear for it). I have around 16% change to block, and with critical block every third block (over time) is for twice that (2k). So on average I am blocking 1,333 from every 6th or so melee attack. If a boss hits me for 22k after armor, etc, then over time I get hit for 22k, 22k, 22k, 20,777, 22k, and 22k (assuming no avoidance). Assuming you don't avoid them (really I'm assuming that we avoid an equal amount of times, since our avoidance is presumably identical now) then you get hit for 22k each time.

So you get hit for 132,000 damage over this time period, while I get hit for and average of 130,667 damage. Now I can choose to stack SBV and SBR in order to block more (and more often) but then I get hit more often, and avoidance is much more powerful, so in reality the more I try to stack block the greater damage I'll take compared to a DK on hard hitting bosses.


My issue here isn't in being more powerful than other tanks, it is in the fact that we have lost much of what we had to compensate for not having a shield.Even if the shield block buff is marginal, having a shield does account for something significant.

Unfortunately, this is just a myth on hard hitting bosses. I agree with you for trash, but trash doesn't usually block people so much (and there are multiple tanks to help).


If it doesn't, then I would expect that Blizzard will do far more down the road to ensure that it does, and, when they do, where will that leave DKs?

Blue posts have already said that when they actually fix block they're going to have to nerf other abilities to even us out. Maybe they'll decide they don't have to change block after this, or maybe they'll overhaul shield-wearers a lot in the next expansion and we'll have a lot less avoidance or something, I'm not sure. But it certainly would not be fair to actually buff block (if they do overhaul it in the future) and leave everything else as is.


However, I'm worried about how I am supposed to compensate for the loss of Icebound Fortitude uptime that I had. I really don't know where to compensate for that. I could gem for more avoidance, but then I'll lose more of my precious hp, of which I will lose a decent chunk after this change.

No offense, but your healers will have to heal you through it, just like they do for everyone else. IBF was OP because you could time it and your other CDs/trinkets for essentially every bit of spike damage in the game, while other tanks couldn't. On Iron Council even with a glyphed and talented 2 minute SW I'd pop that on the first fusion punch, use my last stand/enraged regen macro on the second, and start pressing trinkets (of course I have to give up my stam trinket to have two click on use trinkets so there goes 1.2k HP). Even so I start getting hit by most of them full on after the 4th one until my CDs come back up. The healers have to take up the slack, and that's how the devs want it, that's why DK cds are being brought closer to everyone elses' rather than having all the other tanks get lots of CD uptime buffs.

All of this said, let me be clear; if DKs truly end up on the PTRs as the least survivable tanks, that is NOT fair and will have to be fixed. My guess is that a targeted armor buff would be the best candidate, as if there are any disadvantages it will be against physical damage. I'm just trying to counter the "sky is falling" mentality. It's not, and if there is an over-nerf it's very slight and we can all agree it should be fixed (if it's needed). It's NOT ok to pretend that block is in any way equivalent to a 1 minute IBF cd, which is basically what is being said here.

Edit: Lulia, Shields do not help you avoid as a mechanic. Of course different shields have different stats on them, and some (like the shield that drops from 25 man patchwerk) have avoidance stats, but that is just like the stats on your weapons, etc. Shields are offensive weapons (e.g. shield slam) but they convey no additional protection aside from their base stats and the block mechanic.

Satorri
06-19-2009, 02:33 PM
Nitpick, Esch, DK base health is exactly 8121.


At the end of the day this just means we're going to take more damage and have slightly less of a health buffer. I don't expect it will be a HUMONGOUS change that will completely revise the way we spec or gear (not the tanking changes anyway), but it will mean we'll be needing more heals. As a Blood tank it just makes me sad to lose 7% of my total health when that is what I focus on stacking to buff most of my survival tools.

Esch
06-19-2009, 03:11 PM
Icebound Fortitude was our mitigation, it was our replacement for the shield in a way. With all of these changes, you're right, we're going to need mitigation, but we don't need something new, we just need them to not mess with Icebound Fortitude.

That's unrealistic. I've done Vezax, and frankly, my raid's response was along the lines 'loleasy'. The only issue we have is interrupts, and I think it's some dps getting tunnel vision (as usual) instead of keeping an eye for cast bars.

Whether or not I like it, 2min IBF is here. There won't be a glyph, there won't be a talent, or some other run around gimmick. We'll have to learn to manage without that button getting spammed constantly and save it for moments it's truly needed. My larger complaint is the change makes Unholy that much better, for the 'alternate' CD of Boneshield, generating a similar, one-cd-per-minute ability.


Nitpick, Esch, DK base health is exactly 8121.

I'm going to stick to my numbers. I stripped nekkid getting them, which was annoying with my limited bag space :rolleyes:. However, it starts as a ~800 nerf regardless of talents, gear or spec.



At the end of the day this just means we're going to take more damage and have slightly less of a health buffer. I don't expect it will be a HUMONGOUS change that will completely revise the way we spec or gear (not the tanking changes anyway), but it will mean we'll be needing more heals. As a Blood tank it just makes me sad to lose 7% of my total health when that is what I focus on stacking to buff most of my survival tools.

I'm with you Satorii. I'm 100% sure I can solo tank Vezax, but it's going to require some gear tweaks, coordinating healers (read: aligning the healer's mitigation talents with my weaker options) & flipping to Unholy. I have no doubt I can get through this, but it's going to be painful. I do think the bat fell too hard, though I can't tell if it's Blizzard's lack of testing or some game of 'nerf to hell and buff back to make players happier'.

Satorri
06-19-2009, 03:21 PM
Base Health courtesy of WoWwiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Base_health)

The way I posted above will give you your health to the dot every time. Base health is 8121, stamina gives you 10 hp per point except for the first 20 which are 1 hp per point. You can apply stam buffs (all multiplicative not additive) and health buffs to that equation.

jere
06-19-2009, 03:41 PM
It's the first 18 stam. The health equation subtracts 180 at the end, not 200. Consequently, both of yall's values are 180 different from each other because of that.



I'm going to stick to my numbers. I stripped nekkid getting them, which was annoying with my limited bag space :rolleyes:. However, it starts as a ~800 nerf regardless of talents, gear or spec.


You probably took your naked stamina, multiplied it by 10, and subtracted that. That would be partially incorrect. If you look at the amount of health your stamina provides, you will find it to be about 180 less than what Stamina*10 gives you, making your value 180 too low.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm just trying to counter the "sky is falling" mentality. It's not, and if there is an over-nerf it's very slight and we can all agree it should be fixed (if it's needed). It's NOT ok to pretend that block is in any way equivalent to a 1 minute IBF cd, which is basically what is being said here.

First off, thank you for clarifying the shield. I can admit I don't know much about shields and so the avoidance thing was just from what I had heard. However, I have not acted like the sky is falling, and yet I'm still quite concerned. Your posts act quite opposite to what you counter in an equal extreme. You act as if DKs have been playing on god-mode and been invincible all this time, which is VERY untrue. Even on bosses like the Iron Council, Icebound Fortitude has never been up so often that I could counter ALL spike damage. In fact, once again, we went to our pally tank because he could cleanse himself of the DoT.

If what you say is true, about Blizzard's intentions, then it's a very wrong way for them to go. Already there's too much put on the healers, we shouldn't be making one role so responsible over the success of a raid. As it was right now it was more balanced between the rolls. DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression. It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them. If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous. Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 04:29 PM
Whether or not I like it, 2min IBF is here. There won't be a glyph, there won't be a talent, or some other run around gimmick. We'll have to learn to manage without that button getting spammed constantly and save it for moments it's truly needed. My larger complaint is the change makes Unholy that much better, for the 'alternate' CD of Boneshield, generating a similar, one-cd-per-minute ability.


You can't spam a 1-minute ability, that's a very exaggerated example. I did use it only when it was needed. Often times I needed it more than once a minute, but on average if it was needed for a particular ability the ability took longer than 1 minute to re-proc, but less than 2 minutes. It simply won't be there when we need it sometimes and that bothers me, because we don't have some of the tricks that other tanks do, and now we have less health and less hp. It's not any one change besides Icebound Fortitude that's the problem, it's all of them at once. As I said, this is very bad design, imo.

These things should happen in steps, but Blizzard seems to like to over nerf before they rebuff again, which is ridiculous. In the mean time, a lot of us DKs are going to get more deaths, slower progression and likely be less favored tanks which will hurt us in the long run. It's not like tanking is over, but to act like this won't hurt us or affect things down the road is also ridiculous. There's a reason that nerfing something at its onset is bad, and over-nerfing in response to being overpowered is just as bad. I like Blizzard and I wasn't bothered by previous changes, because they happened mostly one at a time. But suddenly Blizzard has decided to slam one huge bat, and I don't like where it might put us.

Dtain
06-19-2009, 04:38 PM
.... Even on bosses like the Iron Council, Icebound Fortitude has never been up so often that I could counter ALL spike damage. In fact, once again, we went to our pally tank because he could cleanse himself of the DoT.

You could just as easily have a dps or healer with a cleanse ability remove it. Saying this makes a pally tank better at taking spike damage is a bit of a cop out.


DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression. It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them.

This is true for all tanks not just DKs



If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous. Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

The tanking core for my guild since naxx has Been Warrior, DK, Pally(myself) since we walked into naxx. I have a DK alt that i tank with who is in naxx 25 gear, I'm mentioning this so that you can see that I understand the mechanics of both Pally tanking and DK tanking.

Previously a DK and an equally geared Pally took roughly the same ammount of damage per swing while not using cooldowns.

Now the issue is Pallys had 1 cooldown on a two minute timer, while the DKs depending on spec have 2-3 on 1-2 minute timers.

Now you could stack those cooldowns one after another and have a very high uptime of cooldowns on fights where there is a large burst to worry about. On fights where there is multipe bursts that stand a high chance of killing you, you have a cooldown for each one generally(not always but a good ammount of the time) meanwhile the pally after the first one has to wait two minutes and hope for the best on any burst that comes in the mean time or rely on external cooldowns.


Will this nerf kill DK tanking? No.

Will they take more damage and require a bit more healing? Yes.

Will they require substantially more healing then another tank class? No.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Will this nerf kill DK tanking? No.


Yes, however it was overpowered before so nerf just brings it back into line. The question is about how much they're nerfing, not whether or not they needed one, that answer was obvious and they're getting it.



Will they require substantially more healing then another tank class? No.Yes, I already require more healing sans Icebound Fortitude. The fact of the matter is that I already don't use it when I don't need it and I've found that I take a LOT more damage. The one thing that theory can't do is represent what actually happens, and I've gone through it. I use Icebound Fortitude a lot more than I used to just a week or two ago because the damage I took was significantly more without it and I required far more healing than any other tank.

As I said, it's not like it will be impossible to tank. I don't understand why everyone that responds acts as if we keep saying that DKs wont be able to tank anymore. Of course the argument is in your favor if you try to argue that point against us, but that's not what we're saying. DKs will be inferior tanks, they will die far more often, progression will slow down.

We won't know until it happens. I really don't want to whine about it, I'm just concerned about what I'll need to do differently once it happens because I doubt it will be stopped. Right now I'm thinking we'll see Paladins rise to the top and become by far the best tanks, with DKs and Warriors fighting for second in inferior land, but we'll see.

Edit:
Also, the comment on fusion punch was a direct response to an example made earlier. I never once tried to make it seem like Paladins were better for burst damage because of it, don't even try to act like I did.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Yes, I already require more healing sans Icebound Fortitude. The fact of the matter is that I already don't use it when I don't need it and I've found that I take a LOT more damage.

I'm sorry, that just isn't possible unless you are comparing yourself to a much better geared member of the other class. DKs currently have more armor, more health, and more avoidance in addition to their CDs. It's been shown repeatedly that TTL on DKs is among the best (although druids often do very well too because of their high HPs) even without any CDs.

I'm not saying you don't feel that way, but it must be a perception thing (e.g. how it feels once the CD is gone). To be sure when Wrath first shipped and we were all sprinting through heroics it _was_ true, as the amount blocked was actually worth quite a lot when mobs hit you for 2-8k. And back then DKs had to live or die on their CDs, which meant that if you Fed up your rotation you did indeed go down hard unless you had a really good healer. But it was far overcorrected during Naxx progression (the infamous 3.0.8 patch was the largest culprit) and several people pointed it out at the time, but since everyone was overgeared and breezing through Naxx anyways it didn't really matter.



I use Icebound Fortitude a lot more than I used to just a week or two ago because the damage I took was significantly more without it and I required far more healing than any other tank.

I would expect so, as you lost a decent chunk of armor. But the math shows you were still easier to heal than an equivalently geared pally or warrior, even when CDs weren't up. It's just that your CDs became more important.


DKs will be inferior tanks, they will die far more often, progression will slow down.

If this really happens then you will need a buff, hopefully before the PTRs are done. But so far the math doesn't support that this is going to put you at a significant disadvantage compared to pallies and warriors. It will make your healers have to work harder...just like mine do.


Right now I'm thinking we'll see Paladins rise to the top and become by far the best tanks, with DKs and Warriors fighting for second in inferior land, but we'll see.

Possibly. As someone who's been fighting that way all through Wrath I could be snarky and welcome you to the club, but honestly I don't think pallies are getting much of a buff so I'm not too worried; obviously we'll have to watch the PTRs to know for sure.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 06:03 PM
If what you say is true, about Blizzard's intentions, then it's a very wrong way for them to go. Already there's too much put on the healers, we shouldn't be making one role so responsible over the success of a raid.

Wait...so the 3-6 healers composed of 4 different healing classes (depending on raid size and makeup) shouldn't have it all put on them, and to fix that one tanking class should be able to take the pressure off of them? Doesn't that make the raid success dependent on even fewer people/roles?


As it was right now it was more balanced between the rolls. DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression.

You mean like for all the other tanks?


It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them. If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous.

Ok, so no offense, but this sort of statement is what makes other tanks respond with a tinge of umbrage. Currently (pre-PTR nerf) DKs are less squishy than warriors and pallies even without their CDs. You're saying that the importance of your CDs is that it allows you to succeed without having to worry as much about the abilities/gear of others. If you can explain to me what the difference is between "trivialize content" and "not have to worry about finding good healers" go ahead, but even then how do you justify that you'd prefer for DKs to keep the best CDs too because it "distinguishes" them. I'm sorry, but simply being the best at both normal mitigation, avoidance, HP, and CDs is not a "role", it's being handed easier success than other players, period. No it's not "god-mode" but it still means you get more success and depend less on the rest of the raid than other tanks, and that isn't balanced.


Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

My co-tank (in theory he was the OT, but only because he did better DPS then I when no second tank was needed, not because of skill or gear) all through Naxx was a DK, I have a pretty good feel for what a very skilled DK tank can accomplish.

If you want to take it up with Blizzard that healers should be less important and tanks more so give it a shot, but that's a game design problem and has nothing to do with balance (good luck with that, Blizz has been very clear that they like the current difficulty with shield tanks and think that DKs tanks are making encounters too easy). The current PTR situation is very close to balance...certainly a lot closer than has yet occurred in Wrath. And if DKs end up with the lowest survivability on the PTRs, I'll be making posts saying that Blizz should correct it.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 06:06 PM
Well, I could point you to the whole THREAD on buffs that paladins are getting. It's a bit ridiculous that they, of all classes, should get so much buff attention, but yes, they will end up with more than they left with, and with DKs taking a hit it seems logical that they will end up on top. As I said, I have no problem with being balanced, but I just don't see balance happening, I see over-nerfing. And as nice as math is for theory, it just does not pan out the real scenarios.

As I said, do we really want to put MORE responsibility on our healers? Healers are rare as it is, good healers are rarer still. By dumping a crapload of more work on healers, we're likely to see far slower progression and a lot more deaths when DKs get hit, and DKs will see the bulk of it because they'll be taking far more damage than they used to. I don't have the math to show that we already took a hefty amount of damage without cooldowns, so I can't continue to argue that point, but I think it will be made pretty clear once 3.2 comes out. Especially with diminishing returns in avoidance, DKs without cooldowns become ticking timebombs, they look fine for 5-6 hits: parry, dodge, miss, dodge, dodge, miss, parry... then bam, 22k, 22k, 22k, 22k, dead DK. That's just on normal melee for hard hitting bosses, remember, now that Icebound Fortitude will have a 2 min CD we'll have to save it for the spike damage of such bosses, like tantrum on XT. So all of those 22k hits will go unmitigated by our lower armor and our health will creep dangerously lower since it starts lower.

I'm sorry if I seem butt-hurt, but I've worked hard to get my tank to where it is. I haven't roflstomped anything, it's been a lot of work and a lot of practice, a lot of losing on rolls and waiting patiently to get things. This is a big whack in the balls and a slap in the face. The reward I get for working hard and trying to have fun is to be told I'm overpowered?

I'm sorry, but with my CDs down, I won't feel like a tank. How am I supposed to protect myself? I have to rely on some healer, so that when I die, 99% of the time it will be the healers fault. It won't take more skill on my part to play, I know when I'm supposed to use the CDs, I only tossed them in extra when I could, to help the healers. Now I won't have that and when I can't use the CD, even if it's not spike damage, there's a lot more places where I'm going to die and I can't control it. That's not fun, fun is being able to learn and grow and control what happens to you. Putting healers in control of what happens to me and taking that out of my hands is going to make many fights less fun. Kiting fights and such should hopefully not suffer too much, but other fights will and I hope I'll still enjoy tanking, I just think I'll see a lot more dying and a lot more frustration when I can't do anything about it.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Wait...so the 3-6 healers composed of 4 different healing classes (depending on raid size and makeup) shouldn't have it all put on them, and to fix that one tanking class should be able to take the pressure off of them? Doesn't that make the raid success dependent on even fewer people/roles?


You act as if I said I should have control of the raid's success, which is wrong. You cannot counter argue by taking the extreme opposite of my point. All I said was that it should not be solely on the healers, I said nothing about it solely relying on tank skill. Ideally it's a balance between dps skill, tank skill and healer skill. With these changes a lot more falls on the healers and a lot less falls on the tanks, that's not fun nor wise.



Ok, so no offense, but this sort of statement is what makes other tanks respond with a tinge of umbrage. Currently (pre-PTR nerf) DKs are less squishy than warriors and pallies even without their CDs. You're saying that the importance of your CDs is that it allows you to succeed without having to worry as much about the abilities/gear of others. If you can explain to me what the difference is between "trivialize content" and "not have to worry about finding good healers" go ahead, but even then how do you justify that you'd prefer for DKs to keep the best CDs too because it "distinguishes" them. I'm sorry, but simply being the best at both normal mitigation, avoidance, HP, and CDs is not a "role", it's being handed easier success than other players, period. No it's not "god-mode" but it still means you get more success and depend less on the rest of the raid than other tanks, and that isn't balanced.


Maybe you feel that way because you have a bit of bias and anger in you, not because you truly understand what I'm trying to say. I've said it many times so I'll leave it to you to re-read if you actually care to understand. The hint is this: I don't want to sit there doing nothing, cringing as I'm almost near death and knowing I can't do shit to stop it.



My co-tank (in theory he was the OT, but only because he did better DPS then I when no second tank was needed, not because of skill or gear) all through Naxx was a DK, I have a pretty good feel for what a very skilled DK tank can accomplish.


I could say the same with the other DK, and the Paladin tank I've run with. You act as if no one else has seen other tanks tank.



If you want to take it up with Blizzard that healers should be less important and tanks more so give it a shot, but that's a game design problem and has nothing to do with balance (good luck with that, Blizz has been very clear that they like the current difficulty with shield tanks and think that DKs tanks are making encounters too easy). The current PTR situation is very close to balance...certainly a lot closer than has yet occurred in Wrath. And if DKs end up with the lowest survivability on the PTRs, I'll be making posts saying that Blizz should correct it.

If the PTR is so close, then why has the game ultimately failed there thus far? Why does the projected plan seem doomed to fail? There's many many issues with tanking the power of staying alive out of the tank's hands.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 06:33 PM
Hey Lulia, first let me point out that no one (or at least not me) is saying you didn't personally work hard to succeed, or that DK tanks don't require any skill. Anyone who says so is full of it. If you were a good tank before the nerf you'll be a good tank afterwards. That said, there may have been other tanks of other classes with the same story and skill as yours who didn't even get as far as you did because they were by nature squishier and lacked CDs.


As I said, do we really want to put MORE responsibility on our healers? Healers are rare as it is, good healers are rarer still. By dumping a crapload of more work on healers, we're likely to see far slower progression

I don't know what to tell you; it's the way the game is designed. Raiding requires that you work with others who are also good. A friend (and ardent raider) once told me after some guild drama bumped us back to 10 man raids in TBC for a while that the hardest part of raiding isn't learning to push our buttons in the right order, it's finding 24 other people of the right attitude, skill, class distribution, and availability. If you do 10 man raids it's the same, but you need 9 other people. The social factor is supposed to be the appeal of an MMO, and Blizz has made repeated blue posts that there were going to have to brink DKs down rather than everyone else up.

Ulduar is still easier than T5 raiding was in TBC before the content was nerfed. And 3.2 will also come with new ways to get better gear so that will make progression easier.


I'm sorry if I seem butt-hurt, but I've worked hard to get my tank to where it is. I haven't roflstomped anything, it's been a lot of work and a lot of practice, a lot of losing on rolls and waiting patiently to get things. This is a big whack in the balls and a slap in the face. The reward I get for working hard and trying to have fun is to be told I'm overpowered?

Hey, I hear you. Everyone who finds success at tanking has to put in time and effort. Healing and tanking are just harder than DPS (don't jump my sh!t DPS fans, my original main was DPS). But everyone who tanks also wants to succeed and have fun regardless of class, and the numbers (and guild's who switch tanks) have shown conclusively since 3.1 that DK tanks are easier to heal than other classes.

So I don't blame you for feeling butt-hurt, honest. Remember that warriors used to be almost the defacto main tank, and most of the warrior tanks you see all had to go through this same transition when Wrath shipped, so I have genuine sympathy for your situation. But tanks have always had to rely on their healers to keep them alive. All of the tanks have more control over their destinies in Wrath than ever before (shieldwall used to be on a 30 minute cooldown...no joke!). Being a tank means gearing to be able to take the hits well enough that your healers can keep you up. If your healers can't then either try to help them learn more about their classes (in a very polite manner) or else start recruiting new healers.

And who knows, it may end up that you need some extra armor to make up for block; if so then I'll be on your side. But we need real math, real WWS parses, etc to back that up.

TomHuxley
06-19-2009, 06:43 PM
All I said was that it should not be solely on the healers, I said nothing about it solely relying on tank skill. Ideally it's a balance between dps skill, tank skill and healer skill.

You said that, but the point is you will be finding the exact same balance that other tank classes have. I've simply had to rely on my healers more (but still less than in previous expansions) than you up till now, and after this we'll be at the same level of dependency.


With these changes a lot more falls on the healers and a lot less falls on the tanks, that's not fun nor wise.

It's just as fun and wise as it is for everyone else.


The hint is this: I don't want to sit there doing nothing, cringing as I'm almost near death and knowing I can't do shit to stop it.

It's not like you won't have CDs and trinkets and pots. Your CDs are just bringing down to where you'll be cringing as much as the rest of us. Sometimes you just have to depend on your healers.


I could say the same with the other DK, and the Paladin tank I've run with. You act as if no one else has seen other tanks tank.

Huh? You had just said that I had to play a DK to understand how important the CDs were, and I was telling you I've seen what they do for a DK. I wasn't even mentioning your knowledge of other classes.


If the PTR is so close, then why has the game ultimately failed there thus far?

Ok, now you've lost me. How has the game failed? These are just balance issues; they happen all the time to different classes. It's a normal part of developing a game this large and complex.


There's many many issues with tanking the power of staying alive out of the tank's hands.

All I can tell you is that tanks have had more control over their destinies in Wrath than ever before in WoW. And you'll still have just as good of CDs as other tanks and atm it looks like you'll fare just as well even when they're down.

Satorri
06-19-2009, 07:05 PM
There's a lot of back and forth here. Suffice to say, and the data is in another thread HERE, DK's have a distinct edge at the moment, thus the unequivocable nerf. We'll see how it plays through the PTR (bearing in mind these numbers are just reaching the PTR which isn't even open yet). They may be scaled back, they may remain the same, the same is true of the protadin buffs.

Suffice to say, while I'll miss the big chunk of health and small but noticeable chunk of physical damage reduction, they will not kill the class, nor will they probably even amount to a very noticeable difference. Parses will bear the difference, but no one else will probably bat an eyelash. I will, amid the tears for yesteryear.

Cookie
06-19-2009, 07:13 PM
You guys have to remember that the changes aren't final. The PTR will be up for a very long time, and it'll be tuned. Few people have even tried out these changes yet.

But personally, I find it unbelievale it's taken Blizzard up to the THIRD tier of content this expansion to fix DK tanks, it's long overdue. DKs aren't prefered these days because they are just "good", they're prefered these days because they're "so good that they're overpowered". Hopefully these changes will bring them to where they should've been in the first place, and that's at a point where guilds aren't actually ditching their MTs for DK alts.

On the other hand, I also hope that after 3.2, guilds won't be ditching their MTs for some other overpowered tanking class either.

Esch
06-19-2009, 07:17 PM
These things should happen in steps, but Blizzard seems to like to over nerf before they rebuff again, which is ridiculous. In the mean time, a lot of us DKs are going to get more deaths, slower progression and likely be less favored tanks which will hurt us in the long run.

Let's separate two things: Nerfs to DKs, and balancing tanks to be roughly equal to content (Blizzard's philosophy). From the perspective of DKs, all these nerfs flat out suck, as the reduce abilities and mitigation by a lot. At the same time, some encounters (Sarth, Vezax, Hodir, etc.) favor a cooldown-heavy defense, with IBF being an extremely power yet frequent ability. Overall, IBF (specifically) getting hit this hard isn't unfair - what's unfair is that other tanks have had deal with not having an amazing 1 min CD ability for this long.

Aside, I'ld love to keep a 1 min IBF. I'm just honest to the balance of tanking that if other tanks are picking up a similar CD (1 min, ~40% reduction to all damage), something has to change. In this case, Blizzard chose to nerf IBF rather than completely redesign current/future content to consider tanks all having a 1 min CD ability.


It's not like tanking is over, but to act like this won't hurt us or affect things down the road is also ridiculous. There's a reason that nerfing something at its onset is bad, and over-nerfing in response to being overpowered is just as bad. I like Blizzard and I wasn't bothered by previous changes, because they happened mostly one at a time. But suddenly Blizzard has decided to slam one huge bat, and I don't like where it might put us.

I can agree with the hammer feeling, but I'm optimistic that PTR testing will back up the view that the nerfs were overkill. Of the lot, the first one I hope to see reverted/changed is Frost Presence, as it's the baseline ability all DK tanks require. IBF is toast (see above), VotW is possible for reversion... but I doubt it (FP has priority), and Toughness isn't vital compared to FP.

Malatank
06-19-2009, 08:17 PM
My priest is lvl77.

People always need a healer right?

Not really.

My Priest is lvl 80, Discipline (single spec'd), full epic, miles away from my prot warrior who ding'ed 80 just a while ago.

Still, when I try to get my priest into a guild, they always ask me if I'm interested in spec'ing shadow, because "they have none in their Ulduar cores, and we have too much healers".

I hate dual spec, if I want a DPS I'll roll one (maybe another Priest if I want it shadow). Yeah I'm not really into the RPG side of it but I think dual spec makes no sense. But that's off topic.

So?! Well, I'm glad because I rolled a Priest when I wanted to heal with a Priest and I rolled a Warrior when I wanted to tank with a Warrior, despite most people, heck, everyone telling me that I should go Pally (The Ramones tank, you just go 1-2-3-4!!!!) or DK (frustrated DK tanks went DPS when I was tanking in Outlands just to give me some trouble... Death Grip sucks!).

When you do what you want, you never QQ. You eat the nerfs and keep doing your thing.

Feanorr
06-19-2009, 08:22 PM
It IS simple math, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't being nerfed into oblivion, you are being brought back into line with the other classes. Welcome. :)

So let's assume that having same armor same health and same mitigation but no shield is fair; but you are forgeting something: physical and magic mitigation (from def stance/frost presence and talents). DK have the worst (10 % for both), war are at 10% physic and 16% magic, pal at 12 and 18%.
It was compensated by our better armor and HP, it wont be anymore.

Plus, I dont know for war, but Pal got a few other thing over DK: +5% healing for exemple.


And still no word about the agro: DK have currently a lead on survivability, but for the agro this clearly go to Pal and by a huge margin.

Rialév
06-19-2009, 08:41 PM
Think of it this way as well. Paladins get a shield and Divine Protection, which will be roughly equivalent to Icebound Fortitude after the "change". In addition, although Warriors do not seem to have a similar ability (I don't know them that well, I had to look through their talents on slightly) they do get 60% dam reduction every 5 minutes in addition to the fact that they have a shield combined with any other mitigation abilities they likely have.

As has been noted, I have no problem being brought in line with other classes. And I'm STILL going to play and attempt to play as well as I can despite the change. I just find the Icebound Fortitude change excessive and unneeded, it may, in fact, be something that breaks many DK tanks and could easily be the reason many DKs fall in some battles. Having 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 1 minute is key when we lack a shield, and when our armor value continues to drop significantly with the last patch and this upcoming one.

4%+ health lost, sucks, but it's fine and we can work around it. The same with most any of the other changes. The Frost Strike change sucks, but hey, it wasn't as if I was suffering in the threat area anyways, I imagine I will now just have to be a bit more careful there. I don't like the dual wield stuff, I don't think dual wielding is yet ready to be a more viable tanking spec than two-handers, but I'd love to be proven wrong, I'd love to dual wield tank. But, overall, the only change that really worries me is the cooldown to Icebound Fortitude. I'm really quite worried about where this leads and whether or not I can make up for it in other areas.

I don't actually think that they are intending to make Dual Wielding a more powerful set up for tanking as compared to now, to me it looks like it could be a significant change to a DPS DK however. Though I haven't done any math on it yet, it could really bring up some of the DPS capabilities of a Death Knight. Largely I think it was a fix from having Dual Wield being the most powerful DPS spec, eliminating it's capability, and now bringing it back to a logical option.

For threat purposes it could be useful, but I still doubt it will be as powerful as a 2hander Death Knight for tanking.

I agree that the stamina can more or less be worked around. If you look at the rest of the changes to this patch, primarily the increases to JC gems, as well as new epic patterns, it could be more of a balancing change than anything.

The Cooldown to IBF is indeed a nasty change, but despite it's uses, I think that that too can also be worked around depending on how the tank actually plays his cooldowns.

You can still work in a very powerful cooldown cycle with it increased to 2 minutes, though it's not quite as powerful (for lack of a word that doesn't say... nowhere near as good) But it can still be worked with depending on your spec. I don't think Unholy Death Knights will recover quickly from this change. Blood and Frost shouldn't have a whole lot of trouble handling it.

Dtain
06-19-2009, 08:56 PM
So let's assume that having same armor same health and same mitigation but no shield is fair; but you are forgeting something: physical and magic mitigation (from def stance/frost presence and talents). DK have the worst (10 % for both), war are at 10% physic and 16% magic, pal at 12 and 18%.
It was compensated by our better armor and HP, it wont be anymore.

Plus, I dont know for war, but Pal got a few other thing over DK: +5% healing for exemple.


And still no word about the agro: DK have currently a lead on survivability, but for the agro this clearly go to Pal and by a huge margin.

Yes but DKs also Have anti Magic sheild on a 45 second cooldown to deal with large magical bursts which is generally where we care about how much we can reduce it by.

Every tank class has a few things other classes don't trying to grab this and that and saying we have it and you don't doesn't bring much to the table, and as for the 5% healing I don't know what a tankadin would be able to give up to spec 5/5 into it, and I am almost certain it wouldn't be worth it considering how much overhealing is already done.

Edit: Also threat is a non-issue for all but 2 fights, I will not deny that pallys are ahead of other tanks but no tank should be having issues with threat currently.

Satorri
06-20-2009, 04:54 AM
But personally, I find it unbelievale it's taken Blizzard up to the THIRD tier of content this expansion to fix DK tanks, it's long overdue. DKs aren't prefered these days because they are just "good", they're prefered these days because they're "so good that they're overpowered". Hopefully these changes will bring them to where they should've been in the first place, and that's at a point where guilds aren't actually ditching their MTs for DK alts.

On the other hand, I also hope that after 3.2, guilds won't be ditching their MTs for some other overpowered tanking class either.

Blizz has been carefully cutting DKs all along the line. I've watched it from the beginning of the beta to now. They avoided as significant cuts as it would've taken to come straight here for fear of over-nerfing. Not to mention they've made many lateral/functionality changes to adjust dps and pvp values, not just tanking and those had some trickle down effect that had to be adjusted for. All the other classes had a 3-4 year head start on the design. I'm a little surprised at how critical of Blizzard some people are, seems a bit ignorant of the complexity of the game and its elements.

Besides, DK's are not overpowered (and we were actually previously buffed because we were too vulnerable as tanks part of the time), we only have a slight edge, that edge is getting filed down pretty severely in this patch, though I'd like to see my health take slightly less severe of a hit, 7% is rough to say the least.

The reality of course is that for the "hardcore" and people who want to min/max to be playing what they think is the best best possible scenario, they will always favor the class that is in the best favor, which is often the tank that has the best edge. Like currently, taking 1-2% less damage or having well-matched abilities to certain encounters that have a slightly higher effect than that. If that's enough for people to completely switch to another class, then they always will be class jumping when Blizz shifts the balance. Personally, I'm not stressing that, I love all my tanks. =)

zeruvar
06-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Yes but DKs also Have anti Magic sheild on a 45 second cooldown to deal with large magical bursts which is generally where we care about how much we can reduce it by.

Every tank class has a few things other classes don't trying to grab this and that and saying we have it and you don't doesn't bring much to the table, and as for the 5% healing I don't know what a tankadin would be able to give up to spec 5/5 into it, and I am almost certain it wouldn't be worth it considering how much overhealing is already done.

Edit: Also threat is a non-issue for all but 2 fights, I will not deny that pallys are ahead of other tanks but no tank should be having issues with threat currently.

I agree with dtain here. I guess you would have to be a pally tank to realize that 5% healing bonus is measly and imho not so ideal use of talent points considering other options that would benefit the raid.

First off: I agree that the DK nerfs are a lot to take in one go. But you have to realize "ITS PTR" not live. The debate about DKs having IBF on 1min CD to compensate for no blocking would seem valid from certain perspectives, but this is how i would see it from a paladin tank point of view.

We get one, ONE, CD every 2 mins. If we want more we can (at least my options are)
A)replace a stamina trinket with an on-use trinket;
B)train JC and get the monarch crab (stamina/on-use dodge CD);
C)glyph Hand of Salvation - reduces 20% damage if HoS is used on us, whose base ability is reduce threat over 10 secs (not a huge issue on easier fights, but not always something youd want to rely on especially in progression content)

Now, I've lived with just using DP as my only CD while MTing our Naxx runs until I decided to train JC halfway through it. Sure people might admit Naxx was easy, but even so just living with 1 CD didnt make me reroll into another tank class (I tanked in BC also, and that was NO CD for palys, but the same, i lived with it)

My point on this first part is, yes i know the nerfs are really bad for DK tanks, but its not final yet. Theres still time for the devs to wait and see how it goes. And whatever nerf you end up with, if you love DK tanking, you'll find a way (like DW DK tanking, common census is they're bad, but did that stop players from doing it anyway?)


Now for the paly buffs. I'd say we do get some nice ones, too bad theyre in the other trees. But the biggest issue (from what ive seen in this thread) is the increase block value form items and the Ardent Defender change.

For AD, i would think it is too powerful from what i understand word for word of the text. Automatic Guardian Spirit every 2 mins in one word, is WOW. The passive 30% dmg reduction to every hit that takes hp down below 35% is also impressive. There has been debate that it might work out 2 ways: 1)It will take 30% damage from the WHOLE damage. 2)It will only take 30% reduction from the rest of the damage you get at hitting 35%

e.g.
40k max hp 35% of which is 14k
30k incoming damage
if AD were to function like the first option, you would receive
30% of 30k = 9000
so
30k - 9k = 21k damage

if AD were to function like the second option, you would receive
damage needed to hit 35% is 26k
30k - 26k = 4k damage left over to mitigate at 35%
4k x 30% = 1200 is the damage mitigated from 4k at AD activation
all in all you will receive 26k + 2800= 28800 dmg total

Case 1 = AD is too powerful, I would expect a nerf. Its almost a flat 15% EH increase
Case 2 = AD lost its weakness from before (heavy damage would leapfrog AD not even activating it) and is more reasonable
But like i said, its still in PTR, were not sure how its gonna work. Im just happy to see we get one Internal CD with the automatic GS in Ardent Defender now.

As for the SBV changes? Im gonna be biased on this one and just say "SBV increase? Who cares?"
Progression wise, NO ONE i know uses SBV items unless its the only one they have. My armory has me using SB Value/Rating on my Shoulders/Pants/Chest. My only reason? For shoulders, cause theyre from uldy and i like how they look. For chest, because my other plate chest doesnt have gem sockets. For legs, thats my only tanking leg item (unless i use the one i got from 5-man heroics uggh) SBV/R just sacrifices much more useful avoidance stats for raid/progression tanking.


All in all, I've said it once, I'll say it again. ITS PTR. The devs are bound to mess up considering all the changes theyre gonna do, thats why we players must give constructive criticism to show them how the changes affect us. And yes, it does seem like DKs might be getting a bit too much, but if you like it enough, you'll find ways to deal with it. Now if blizz makes it that DK's cant tank at all, then I say someone better start hiring new game devs

Satorri
06-22-2009, 06:14 AM
5% more healing is anything but a paultry buff. 5% increased on all incoming heals?

If you have only 2 healers responsible for healing you, each of them doing 2.0k hps, 5% is an increase of 200 hps more. A healer wouldn't scoff at that and neither should you. It's just not a buff to your personal mitigation which (in many scenarios like Blood DK self-healing) has left many tanks foolishly disregarding its value.

The better their heals are, the less they need to heal you, the more efficient they become, the longer they can keep you alive, etc.

I'll give you, in a scenario where healers don't have to work at all to keep you up (geared to over-geared in Naxx, say) then the value may be less significant, but in Ulduar, doing progression? I don't blink twice at this one.

Selyndia
06-22-2009, 08:04 AM
The biggest issues with Divinity, is that it conflicts with already tight talent builds, and is extremely expensive (5 Talent points) for its effect.

The current builds that we have as most effective are either a cool down enhanced build that goes into Holy (12/53/6) or a threat based/utility build that goes into Ret (0/53/18). Both builds are buffed in patch; with the change to Improved LoH for the Holy version and the change to Vindication for the Ret one.

In those, the 53 points in Protection are extremely tight. It has at most 3 points that can be moved around as we see fit, and then only in the early tiers. The choices are effectively some mix of these:

Divine Sacrifice
Divine Guardian
Improved Hammer of Justice
Divinity

And at most you are only getting 3 points of these (Usually a Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian combination; a Divine Sacrifice/Improved Hammer of Justice combination or a 3 point Divinity option).

Personally, I pick the Sac/Hammer choice due to the utility of having a 20 second interrupt (Even on the GCD unlike other interrupts it is still handy for a lot of encounters including Ignis, Freya, Auriaya, Thorim, Mimiron, Iron Council, Razorscale, etc). Many paladins forsake Divinity because it’s not worth the sacrifice of other talents. What do you give up, a 3% damage to everything and an additional 3% damage to certain enemy types? Improved Lay on of Hands resulting in powerful physical mitigation tied to topping off the tank and providing some mana? Or the already tight Protection abilities?

And then you are looking at the value. Over an evening of Ulduar, I received 16 million in heals; this talent, at five points would result in 800,000 healing. This would be impressive if I were not already receiving a generous overheal like most tanks. The issue is, that it’s a reactive talent instead of a proactive one. It doesn’t help you survive the big hit, it only makes topping you off afterwards slightly easier changing that Holy Light from 12k to 12,600.

Finally, while it is a two part talent (Increasing both healing done any healing received) the first half of it is ignored by Prot Paladins. Holy and Ret offer much stronger Judgment of Light healing (Which is the only healing a Prot Paladin actually provides not counting LoH, which would very rarely benefit from the extra 5% healing both due to its cool down and that it would only be effective on another tank with more HP than the Paladin and the tank was low enough to benefit), and due to issues with Judgments and Judgments of the Just, Prot needs to make certain it’s judgment isn’t overwritten; as such most Protection Paladins judge Wisdom.

So not only do you have to make sacrifices to actually get the talent, you aren’t able to benefit fully from it, and the actual result isn’t a make or break situation. The number of times where Divinity would have saved a raid is miniscule, compared to the control the other talents offer (Divine Sacrifce on Detonating Lashers/Tantrum; Hammer on Ignis Constructs/Snaplasher/Evokers; etc) and can also be circumvented in almost all circumstances by tighter play by your healers.

Feanorr
06-22-2009, 09:16 AM
The current builds that we have as most effective are either a cool down enhanced build that goes into Holy (12/53/6) or a threat based/utility build that goes into Ret (0/53/18).

Because paladin have threat issue, right :rolleyes:

If you take it or not is your problem, the fact is that, if you want to, you got this for survival.

If we (DK) were folowing your reasoning, all the blood healing talent should be passed to (for more utility/threat, threat that we need a lot more than pal); Rune tap, death strike, mark of blood, even the healing part of our blood cd are all reactive.

lyd
06-22-2009, 10:32 AM
the only thing i find OP about DK's right now is their ability to self-heal like maniacs. Last night in Ulduar 10, one of our healers dropped on Deconstructor, and i was OT'ing the adds. granted the adds don't hit very hard, but i was able to tell the other healer to focus on the MT while i death-struck and blood-tapped my health back. with the help of my mitigation cooldowns i honestly think i could've kept it up all night. I was able to top myself off several times before the fight ended. i don't think a warrior or a paly tank could've kept that up without getting heals.

Esch
06-22-2009, 10:53 AM
the only thing i find OP about DK's right now is their ability to self-heal like maniacs.

That's also the design of blood, however. We're trading damage reduction abilities (Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Dreadplate) in favor of hitpoints and methods to refill those hit points.

Overall, I like the variety of DK specs & playstyles. What I would like done is getting IBF to 2 minutes and having folks raiding with it to see how it affects things. Nothing else, just IBF nerfed. I wager it would significantly shake raiding guilds immediately & get folks away from 'Throw the DK at it' mentality in favor of 'Throw the best tank at it'.

Adding the hit points nerfs, unfortuantely, makes the default 'best tank' a druid for the hitpoint stacking they are still capable of at this time. I don't think that's what Blizzard wants, yet I fear they're not going to see that until after 3.2 is live and most guilds can raid with the changes. I've gotten the impression that PTR testing is more for players' insight, as the instability of the PTR server results in a poor playing environment for raid content.

JeffTheMeatshield
06-22-2009, 11:38 AM
So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks Same health Same armor same avoidance but lack of block yeah i think DK's get it they are supposed to be a shitty tank and that you hate them for having taken your MT job from Ragnaros in MC


Actually its uninformed snipes like this that need to stop, do you really think that I couldnt Re-roll a DK ROLFstomp content? That you are specially blessed to be a DK or something? Ridiculous, get over you self. LOL

zeruvar
06-22-2009, 12:43 PM
Because paladin have threat issue, right :rolleyes:

If you take it or not is your problem, the fact is that, if you want to, you got this for survival.

If we (DK) were folowing your reasoning, all the blood healing talent should be passed to (for more utility/threat, threat that we need a lot more than pal); Rune tap, death strike, mark of blood, even the healing part of our blood cd are all reactive.

selyndia is just commenting on the common consensus with most paly tanks that 5/5 divinity is just too much expensive use of talents considering the other options we have. taking those 5 talents out of 5/5 divinity can give us the following

Divine Sacrifice and 2/2 Divine guardian = gives us a better shield (sacred shield) and helps with aoe damage (Divine Sac) *note healadin shield is better but that just gives us a reason to use our sacred shield on a healer

reduce the CD on our other interrupt (Hammer of Justice)

Reduce Hand of Protection CD

Increase DPS by going 5/5 SoTP in holy, or other talents in ret. *note yes i would have to admit that currently I dont have tps problems but i still prefer ret talents so dps wouldnt have to worry about agro. As Tanks we should make it as easy as we can for dps to do their work. I consider giving them a large threat leeway for breathing room one of them.

DIvinity in paper seems like a great talent choice, but in practice its not as much. I am not sure if you tank as a pally or not. If not, then id have to say you have to try it yourself to realize what it means. And if you are, then id say more power to you, I dont hold it against anyone picking divinity up, as long as they do the job of Tanking decently.

Theotherone
06-22-2009, 12:47 PM
While in another thread I've expressed my displeasure at yet another nerf to the DK's, the more I think about this, the more I'm thinking it's not going be that big a deal; what would be a bigger deal would be nerfing the strength/avoidance benefit. Last night we're doing Patch on 25 man and the Raid Leader posted the DBM recount which listed the HS (never knew DBM could do that, then again I'm rarely the Raid Leader). The two warrior tanks went down pretty quick (charging into the slime (DOH) and healer issue more than anything) the recount on my Frost DK, all by it's lonesome, was along the lines of hit for 14k (IBF up, my grandmother hits harder lol); miss; 27k, dodge, miss, dodge, dodge, dodge, 27k, (no heals - one tank we surrender) miss, 27k, dead. I'm doing this from memory, but string of avoidances, all in a row, was fairly impressive. Maybe, just maybe, this nerf won't be so bad.

Esch
06-22-2009, 01:30 PM
I'm doing this from memory, but string of avoidances, all in a row, was fairly impressive. Maybe, just maybe, this nerf won't be so bad.

RNG is Random. I've had my share of luck on fights, including Patch, but at the same time you can get nothing but 'hit, hit, hit'. Ultimately, it works both ways and you need to plan that you're going to get hit, else you get hammered. Note that magic damage is essentially unavoidable, so you need a cooldown or hitpoints to mitigate that damage reliably.

Compared to most DKs generally have more avoidance, but we currently lack a shield mechanic as well. I'm fine without a shield so long as the armor/mitigation compensates, though that sounds like the druid paradigm for tanking.

Theotherone
06-22-2009, 01:41 PM
RNG is Random. I've had my share of luck on fights, including Patch, but at the same time you can get nothing but 'hit, hit, hit'. Ultimately, it works both ways and you need to plan that you're going to get hit, else you get hammered. Note that magic damage is essentially unavoidable, so you need a cooldown or hitpoints to mitigate that damage reliably.

Compared to most DKs generally have more avoidance, but we currently lack a shield mechanic as well. I'm fine without a shield so long as the armor/mitigation compensates, though that sounds like the druid paradigm for tanking.

Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to find some bright spot or convince myself it's not that bad. At least we still have our personal AMS on a 45 sec cool down - Lightening Nova...that does damage?

Milq
06-22-2009, 11:08 PM
A little maths on the health department:

I have 34.341 hp now, that's 37.775 in FP.

This comes from 2640 stamina, which after the VottW nerf will go down to 2565. (-650 hp)
With the new FP I gain 154 stamina = 1540 hp compared to the 3434 hp pre-nerf. (-1864hp)

All in all the predicted hp loss in my case will be 2514. That is 6.6% unbuffed, which increases by the fact that FP used to scale other buffs like warriors' shout.

Even now I am getting hit like a truck and when RNG has a bad day they come in quick succession. Since it is proven that DKs have no avoidance advantage whatsoever I am terribly concerned how I will fare against bosses without even the slight armor (gone in 3.1) and hp (going in 3.2) bonus I had to cushion a streak of incoming hits.

Already numbers report that DKs will take the most damage if similarly geared to other classes. There is also a salient point here: it matters how you take that damage. DK damage comes in chunks: we either avoid completely or get hit with full force. If 3.2 goes through we will be back to where we started from when with CDs up DKs were hit for laughable amounts but without them we took spikes that caused most healers to have a heart attack. Except we won't have the CDs either, just a lot higher chance to get gibbed by a streak of hits.

Vlad
06-23-2009, 04:50 AM
I don't know if I'd call losing 3k armour "slight", and I hate to tell ya but we're about to lose another 1-1.2k armour on top on that 7% health cushion we'll be losing.

Reality is none of it's going to make a damn bit of difference to me, my healers however are going to feel pain.. it's a wonder there aren't more healers taking notice of this change.

All of this assumes i'll get to tank anything after 3.2..

Satorri
06-23-2009, 06:56 AM
Presumably this should put us closer to the same incoming damage levels as other tanks, so the healers shouldn't notice much difference unless they were used to relying on you as a main tank in many high damage situations, oh wait, crap. >.>

It's not the end of the world, but it is a bump in the challenge of things for DK tanks and their healers, and, as many have pointed out, will be a shift from the hardcore 4% of the population forcing their tanks to reroll DK because it has this small edge.

lyd
06-23-2009, 09:44 AM
That's also the design of blood, however. We're trading damage reduction abilities (Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Dreadplate) in favor of hitpoints and methods to refill those hit points.

understood, and i agree that this is the intended design of blood tanking. however, in my example, i was frost-spec'd, and i was still able to self-heal myself through the damage the adds were putting out pretty much indefinitely, relying only on my mitigation cooldowns, death strike, and blood tap to keep me up. i also had a ghoul sacrifice in my back pocket.

my point is thus: this was a situation where other tanks may not have been able to survive without heals, but because i am a DK, i was able to self-heal through the encounter. This situational advantage is an example of where a hardcore raid leader would want a DK in his raid instead of another tanking class, so i do feel that our self-heal mechanics are OP in this regard. particularly when a non-blood dk tank can still self-heal through a moderate level of damage in a 10-man raid setting. I'm not sure if i could say the same for the 25-man encounter, so i willingly admit that this may be an extremely niche example. but i do think it bears consideration when we are basing the necessity of the nerfs on what other tanks are capable of, and what we're capable of.

Shake
06-23-2009, 11:31 AM
Adding the hit points nerfs, unfortuantely, makes the default 'best tank' a druid for the hitpoint stacking they are still capable of at this time. I don't think that's what Blizzard wants, yet I fear they're not going to see that until after 3.2 is live and most guilds can raid with the changes. I've gotten the impression that PTR testing is more for players' insight, as the instability of the PTR server results in a poor playing environment for raid content.

You hit the nail on the head. DK's are freaking out before PTR even starts because PTR results are almost always different then what really happens in an actual raiding guild.
Remember all the testing done on the tank classes in Ulduar a while back on PTR...the result were the tank classes were overall even...warriors even were said to still be the best all around MT...and they were basing that decision off of T8/BIS gear. Now that more and more DK's have BIS/T8 gear, they say that DK's need another giant nerf. I really think this is where all the despair is coming from.
Of course all the other tank classes are rejoicing over this potential nerf bat, because it's one less class to compete with for MT'ing. To be fair & honestly bring DK's in line with the other classes, you need to either leave IBF alone & go through with the other changes, or make IBF a 2 min cooldown & leave the rest alone.
The PTR won’t change anything though I'm sure, and DK's will have to wait for another 2 months or so before Bliz decides to change everything about how the class is played all over again.
But hey, on the bright side, we'll never have to worry about the class becoming stale, we basically roll a whole new DK tank every nerf =D

wazdaa
06-23-2009, 01:01 PM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500000000000000000000320053503 52003110200033101251230000000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=131817050604&version=10026

new talent builds as of now for the ppl who like to make builds ^^

Milq
06-23-2009, 05:08 PM
Presumably this should put us closer to the same incoming damage levels as other tanks, so the healers shouldn't notice much difference unless they were used to relying on you as a main tank in many high damage situations, oh wait, crap. >.>

It's not the end of the world, but it is a bump in the challenge of things for DK tanks and their healers, and, as many have pointed out, will be a shift from the hardcore 4% of the population forcing their tanks to reroll DK because it has this small edge.

The real problem with this is that while we may have the same incoming damage (I expect bigger incoming damage actually) over the course of a fight, the distribution of this damage will be very different to that of the other tanking classes. We still have no form of mitigation, no more armor than other classes and no HP advantage to sponge spikes. Healer and DK tank alike will break sweat just looking at the wildly jumping HP bar until a druid turns up and tanks bosses without anyone getting a heart attack in the meantime.

Vlad
06-23-2009, 06:30 PM
Expertise added to Vot3W..

Milq
06-23-2009, 07:10 PM
3.2: Icebound fortitude cooldown has been increased from 1 min to 2 min.
Druid T9 Feral 4P Bonus (Class: Druid) -- Increases the damage reduction granted by Barkskin by 10% and increases the critical strike chance of Rip and Ferocious Bite by 5%.

Yeah, right...

sillypuddy
06-23-2009, 09:51 PM
anyone got any builds for the new talent tree for DK tanking frost blood or unholy? and which tree would be better now? or all they all the same in terms of which is better?

Shazlonium
06-23-2009, 10:02 PM
Hello everyone,
Big time fan of the site here. Most of the "good info" i get is from here.

Now I'm about as unhappy with the changes coming in from 3.2 as the next guy, but here's a thought. Now bear in mind that I'm no theorycrafter nor do i plan on being one.

I'm a Frost Tank, and I absolutely love it. But here's what i think might happen when and IF they do go with these changes.

We get less HP, Armor, Threat & a longer CD right?

In return we get:

Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.

Which is supported by:

Nerves of Cold Steel: Increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by 1/2/3% and increases the damage done by your off-hand weapon by 5/10/15%.

Also, Blood of the North becomes a 3 point talent, freeing up 2 points.

Now, combine those points previously mentioned along with 2x Slayer of the Lifeless (http://www.wowwiki.com/Slayer_of_the_Lifeless) and instead of using Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle, use Rune of Swordbreaking on each seem incredibly interesting.

As a little example:

Titansteel Destroyer = +124 Str, +105 Stam, +54 Hit
Stonskin = 25 Def + 2% Stam

VS.

Slayer of the Lifeless (http://www.wowwiki.com/Slayer_of_the_Lifeless) x2 = 50 Def, +50 Str, +114 Stam, +52 Dodge, +38 hit
Swordbreaking = 2% parry on each = 4% Parry

Remember that IBF scales with Def (if i remember correctly that is)

Would that be viable for tanking?

Please feel free to dissect my idea :)

Milq
06-23-2009, 11:25 PM
@Shazlonium

Defense Rating (on swords) != Defense Skill (on rune enchant)

Plus you still need silly amounts of expertise elsewhere on your gear for DW to be a valid tanking setup.

Feanorr
06-23-2009, 11:56 PM
Expertise added to Vot3W..

It already have some expertise

Vlad
06-24-2009, 12:08 AM
:o I never noticed that, probably explains why I get so far over exp cap tanking.. wtb more hit.

DwayneDibley
06-24-2009, 01:40 AM
The 3.2 changes aren't a 'huge nerf' but they are a significant one. Which has the intended effect of taking one of the best tanks to probably the worst. DK's will still tank all things fine, but its the lack of overall fairness in blizzards approach which annoys me.

I can understand why they would want to bring hp, armor and damage reduction in line with warriors and pallies, and I don't have a problem with that in isolation.

The problem I do have is the fact that they haven't looked at the wider picture.
In 3.2 all classes but DK's will have a demo shout like effect. Before the 3.2 changes they didn't really need, it, as their greater armor and hp made up for it, but now this has been equalised, they are left significantly behind.

Next up is blocking, warriors and pallies have this (although pallies implementation is far superior). Sure people will argue its only 3% reduction for warriors and 5% for pallies, and it isn't a big deal. But I get the distinct feeling if in the next patch Blizzard decided to remove the effect from both classes in order to equalise with deathknights, there would be an extreme outcry from such classes!

There are several other little things, such as blade barrier and inequality in talents and abilities i could mention, but i wont bother, for the sake of my keyboard :)


------


Ok, lets play a game of 4 tanks go into a.....

5man dungeon/heroic:
Paladins will excel, the mobs will hit fairly weakly, and a large proportin of their hits will be absorbed by shield block. AD will make them practically indestructable, if the healer happens to fall asleep.
Warriors and druids will do well, with demo shout/roar reducing incoming damage by 16%, and either high armor/hp or block to reduce incoming damage further.
DK's ... hmm ... no demo shout or equivalent (and unlikely that another class will provide it), no blocking, no high armour ... DK's will be at a considerable disadvantage to the others (i'd estimate 20% or more additional damage to the above classes)

Raid - Trash Tanking:
Paladins will again do very well, with a reduced margin from 5-mans. The moderate hits will be mitigated a reasonable amount by shield block, and the demo shout effect will help further (although it is likely another class would provide it anyway). AD will save the pally from any over-ambitious pulls ;-)
Druids will do very well, with high armor and hp, and will likely be providing demo roar for the other tanks.
Warriors will also likely be using their demo shout for the benefit of the raid, and be absorbing reasonable damage by blocking.
DK's will be relying on the debuffs provided by the other classes, and will be taking somewhat more damage than the other classes due to missing out on block mechanics or high armor. Bone shield (if specced for it) may be useful when precast on high damage pulls.

25 Man Raid Boss:
Druids will do very well due to their high HP and Armour, they will also have demo roar available if they happen to be tanking away from the rest of the raid.
Paladins will also be an excellent choice, their demo shout effect will reduce incoming damage considerably, and their blocking will provide a small amount of additional mitigation (5% perhaps). AD will be a real life-saver in these encounters.
Warriors will do well, again can demo shout to reduce incoming damage, and their blocking will help, but to a lesser extent than paladins.
DK's will again be at a disadvantage to the other classes, they will rely on others to apply demo shout/equivalent (which may not always be possible), and have no block or high armor to reduce incoming damage by a little. They will be able to heal(overheal:)) a bit with DeathStrike (perhaps at the expense of threat, unless blood specced). Their short cooldowns may be of use on some gimmick fights also. WotN may be useful if they are specced for it, but this will likely be at the expense of 3% miss chance and 2% dmg reduction.



It is also worth remembering that these changes will hit the weakest players hardest... It has been mentioned that classes are being balanced with full tier 8 and BiS gear, but what percentage of the player base has this?
A newly rolled DK going into his first instances/heroics, lacking tools which other tank classes have and taking much more damage as a consequence is hardly fair, or balanced, which is supposed to be the whole point of this in the first place.

Vlad
06-24-2009, 05:08 AM
The problem I do have is the fact that they haven't looked at the wider picture.
In 3.2 all classes but DK's will have a demo shout like effect. Before the 3.2 changes they didn't really need, it, as their greater armor and hp made up for it, but now this has been equalised, they are left significantly behind.

Imp Icy Touch?, more like clap I guess but yeah no AP reduction on top.

Esch
06-24-2009, 07:07 AM
Imp Icy Touch?, more like clap I guess but yeah no AP reduction on top.

All tanking classes have some variation of dehaste, though DKs have a very easily spread debuff via Pestilence. Other classes run into range/target limitations, but in a boss fight, everyone has the option to have the dehaste effect.

The Demo shout addition to paladins, IMO, is a fair buff bonus and something they've needed. However, I look at paladins as filling niches in high threat generation/AoE tanking. Not all boss fights favor those strengths, which results in a lot of complaints.

slackhoid
06-24-2009, 07:24 AM
I think we will be just fine after 3.2 and these changes were mostly called for. In current form as Unholy tank tanking ulduar10 my healers tell me that me tanking Hodir or Steelbreaker tank healing is trivial as I have a CD for each and every of their high-hitting blow. I don't think this is a good thing. IBF CD goes up to 2 min, no big deal.

As for heath and armor nerf, well I don't think it will kill us or make other tanks preferred over us. Blood self-healing still scales on their HP and so do 3-disease DS heals as unholy (over 12-14k as self-heals in 2 GCD is big deal). With sensible CD rotation I can still have def CD up for most big blows from bosses; maybe I will need more situational awareness to know when to use a def CD instead of just using one just in case like I do now. As unholy I can spec to permapet to have 16-17k Death pact heal every 2 min and have rather short CD on the AotD too for addiotional panic button.

IIT + Pest is still a powerfull tool for big trash packs and something other classes do not have in such easy form. It is so easy to close eyes from what we have when we are about to lose something.

DwayneDibley
06-24-2009, 07:58 AM
You are probably right, DK's will be fine for the current raid content.
New DK tanks will probably struggle more than other classes due to the lack of balance across the tanks there, when they start doing 5mans and heroics, and their healer is struggling considerably more than usual.

Blizzard are making the current raid content and hard modes easier and easier with every patch that hits, and a tank which is slightly weaker than the others is no big deal, for now.

Unfortunately, Tier 9 content will come out, and every raid will be pushed to use the tank with highest effective health and baseline damage reduction, else suffer considerable setbacks. This best tank won't be the DK, as they will likely be the worst, perhaps by a small margin, but the worst never the less.

Satorri
06-24-2009, 11:30 AM
Point of order Milq, while it's smart to have more expertise and you get larger survival value from it, you do not need any more hit or expertise than a 2h to make dual wielding viable.

If you want to push them higher to play up dual wielding's strength (white swings), that's fine, and you can get more value from higher amounts of both hit and expertise, but need is often over-stated, particularly by people who trust the "theory-crafting" over actually doing it.

Inaara
06-24-2009, 11:50 AM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000000305053003 52033000300233101351005200000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=131821050406&version=10026

ZOMG DW TANKING! WE GOTS BUFFED! WTB 2 Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45442) prease.

Milq
06-24-2009, 05:21 PM
@Satorri: I don't believe in parry hast gibs much either. My concern was mainly about threat, especially with the currently active talents. Also, I simply don't have two 1h weapons that compare to my 2h to try... nevertheless I wouldn't be overly happy if Blizz decided DW tanking will be the way to go.

Satorri
06-25-2009, 07:56 AM
They won't decide that, promise. They've made it abundantly clear that they want dual wielding to be a choice (for dps and tanking), but that if it comes down to an inability to balance the two, they'll make sure 2h's are always the better choice.

Alexial
07-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Lets set a few things straight. I haven't read all the posts, I don't really have the time, so excuse me if these issues have been corrected earlier. This is not a loss of 4% stam bonus, its quite more than that.

Frost Presence currently gives us 10% of our total health not stamina. Big difference, because every time you level up, you get both a stam increase and a health increase. So, if you strip all of the stamina (both from gear and stam that the character has without gear) from your character, you have a base health. This base health is currently part of the math used to determine how much we get from frost presence.

Now Blizzard is restricting this to stamina and making it only a 6% increase. This is a bit of a bigger nerf than people realize. Especially for new 80s that want to start tanking. Now, it also depends on how you are geared. My tank is stam heavy, Jewelcrafting helps me with this. I'm going to feel this nerf, but not as much as those who aren't as stam heavy. I've got almost 33k hp in a mix of crafted, Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 gear. I currently can tank XT on 10 and am not sure what else I can do. I'm going to lose 3.5k, roughly. Sure, that doesn't seem like alot, but when you discount my lack of a shield, the armor reduction and the nerf to our CDs, its just alot at once. I have those moments where I will go from full hp to nearly nothing. Every tanking DK does. That 3.5k might be the only thing keeping me up. And I'm not talking about times the boss is hitting hard either, I mean just randomly. I've got 61% damage reduction from armor, 24% dodge and 16% parry with an extra 5% mit from that one blood talent whose name is escaping my memory atm. (Alexial on Detheroc if you want to look me up)

I understand that this just means I'm gonna have to be more liberal with my CDs and to be honest I'll probably need more naxx 25 gear before I go back to Ulduar 10. Its going to be an adjustment and I'm not complaining, but I don't know who said it but this could single handledly make the best tank in the game currently, to the worst.

As for those who say that we just need to practice to adjust to the changes, forget that there are times that all the practice in the world isn't going to help you. I mentioned tanking XT and I have to blow Icebound Fort. when he has his temper tantrum. As of now, its up almost everytime it happens, so I can survive. If I don't have it up, what then, cause I don't think Unbreakable Armor is going to save me in a dire situation?

Sure, big guilds can go 'Well, our DKs aren't as good as they used to be, so we are going to use Pally's and Warriors instead." My little guild, which I run myself with my wife, has 2 tanks we normally use and sadly they are both death knights (Myself and Misacia). We have a pally tank (Lightman), but hes also our MT healer and can't really afford to let him tank as much as we'd like. So, these nerfs may put us between a rock and a hard place. I know DK tanks are OP, but I just think the adjustments should have been a bit more gradual. Too many changes at once can really hurt guilds that rely on a specific clase.

I just think we have to face the reality our guild won't be seeing much ulduar play until we can come up with some other tanks. Then again, I'll have to see how these changes corelate in-game. I just wish they wouldn't do so much at once.

Petninja
07-21-2009, 07:44 PM
I think everyone should stop the sky is falling routine and wait for the PTR to spit some numbers at us. I hear great things about a patchwerk dummy that we can test our tanks on. Once we get some numbers that show that DKs aren't doing so well QQ like a hurricane and support your tears with parses proving your point. Right now this thread doesn't look much better than a class forum on the WoW site, and that's a real shame.

Satorri
07-22-2009, 06:40 AM
An important point Alex, but it's not AS big a deal as is illustrated in all the threads missing.

Balancing elements:
DK base health = 8k (8121 to be exact)

Switching from % health to % stam does lose the bonus on base health, yes. Also, switching to stam means the buff multiplies with all our other % stam bonuses meaning each of them becomes a little stronger. This comes from talents (Vot3W) and buffs (Kings, Imp GotW).

The net will be a very noticeable loss for all DK tanks, and the most severe loss for health stacking Blood tanks (I'll lose over 3k in my raid buffs).

Practice isn't the issue, it's just learning to live with the new set of variables.

junkilo
07-22-2009, 12:50 PM
<snip>
Talent syngery is too good? Irony is that warrior Armor to the Teeth (AttT) now has the same effect of 1 AP per 36 armor... but at 3 talent points compared to the DK's 5 talent points. I consider that set up insulting given DK reliance on DPS to generate threat instead of controlled high-threat abilities.
Seriously? Go compare talent trees for yourself. DKs have 3 point talent for 6% crit, +spell hit, toughness and anticipation in their first tier talent trees compared to wars having their two worst mitigation talents, 5point 5% crit and a 3 point AP talent in their first tier of talents.

mavfin
07-22-2009, 01:07 PM
I've got almost 33k hp in a mix of crafted, Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 gear. I currently can tank XT on 10 and am not sure what else I can do. I'm going to lose 3.5k, roughly.

So you'll be at 29.5K unbuffed after patch, you're thinking. You'll be able to tank Uld-10 fine. I was tanking XT just fine at *27K* unbuffed on my warrior when I started, with only 2 3 minute cooldowns, so I think you're overreacting, really.

No, it's not ruining DKs, it's just making them deal with some of the same problems other classes do. You might have to depend on someone else (a healer, probably) to deliver a cooldown when you need it sometimes, instead of always doing it yourself. I mean, 33K unbuffed is not required for XT. If you can't tank XT with 29.5K unbuffed and a 2 min cooldown, then your healers have issues, imo. (We've had a DK tank him at 28K unbuffed just fine pre-patch.)

Splug
07-22-2009, 01:37 PM
Seriously? Go compare talent trees for yourself. DKs have 3 point talent for 6% crit, +spell hit, toughness and anticipation in their first tier talent trees compared to wars having their two worst mitigation talents, 5point 5% crit and a 3 point AP talent in their first tier of talents.Trying to line up two different classes and arguing the value of a single point at point A versus point B is always going to be inconsistent. There are talents within any given tree that are relatively more valuable or less valuable; comparing them across classes is going to be somewhat invalid. The Blizzard-stated goal is to have the total summation equal, not each individual building block that composes it. (Aside: under the same logic, I find the claims that the glyphs demanded to reduce shield wall / last stand cooldowns to be a warrior disadvantage are faulty. Everyone requires three glyphs to reach an 'ideal' state for their role; whether they're consumed for cooldowns, threat, or throughput mitigation is somewhat moot.)

That said, I don't see a 3 point talent which grants 6% critical hit in the deathknight trees (I believe paladins have that one), and the spell-hit talent is subpar due to only influencing an extreme minority of abilities. Deflection is a first-tier warrior ability, comparable to anticipation. Even if point-to-point comparisons were relevant, you're stretching a bit to find the imbalance you're pointing at there.

EDIT: As for my overall take on the situation, some of the deathknight numbers did have to come down. Furthermore, a 10% raw health increase causes problems with buff scaling (IE: works with flasks of stoneblood and commanding shout, something no other tanking class has access to), and thus should have been changed to stamina (which off the top causes a static ~1.5k health drop). I also believe these changes initially overshot the mark for frost and unholy, though blood may well be in a comparable state to other tanks due to death strike acting as a counterbalance for shield block. Since then, the parry/dodge re-evaluation has hit other tanks harder than death knights for avoidance, making the throughput scenario slightly more favorable. If anything, these changes highlight the lack of support for death strike in the frost/unholy trees, and the balance issues it creates within the death knight class rather than relative to other tanks. If having the same armor with no shield is unacceptable, then having the same armor with no reactive healing is unacceptable - and intrinsically caused by the tanking rotations commonly used in threat-constrained encounters. Whether that ammounts to anything or not, we shall see as the PTR progresses.

-Splug

Satorri
07-22-2009, 03:21 PM
Wait, what talent gives us 6% crit in 3 talent points? I must've missed it.

Hypatia
07-22-2009, 05:12 PM
I think that perhaps he was looking at Vicious Strikes and not reading very closely.

Jameak
07-22-2009, 09:24 PM
It's a class re-balance that was needed. Of course DK's will feel like they will be replaced once the door is open to other tank classes to perform at the same level.

Id like to use Alexial's post as a prime example. Two DK tanks in Ulduar on XT-002. Lets face it XT-002 is one of the easiest most straight forward fights there is. If you believe your guild will fail if you have to depend more on your healers abillity then I have to question if you should be there at all. Good healers and DPS can make or break these encounters, and if, as you put it, your guild depends on their tank class being OP to succeed at these encounters, there is something fundamentally wrong. Practice really is key not just for you as the tank, but for your entire raid composition.

It always irked me to see DK tanks in worse gear, with more HP and armour, tank things I would not have believed possible, so effortlessly, unless I had actually witnessed it. Its this trivialisation of encounters that is being addressed. Whilst this doesnt apply to every DK tank, instead of trying to do everything yourself, start being a team player. If that means a bit more dependance on your healers, so be it, we wont tell you that you can't do it.

Jameak (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thaurissan&n=Jameak)

Reki
07-22-2009, 11:31 PM
It always irked me to see DK tanks in worse gear, with more HP and armour
but it's ok to have a similar geared DK have less armor and health and no block after the patch?

Satorri
07-23-2009, 08:31 AM
Well, let's be fair. My tanking team and I are all comparably geared, DK, Warrior, Protadin.

Currently, I have the most health, highest armor, highest avoidance, and the best CDs. After the patch I'll have about the same health, still slightly more armor, still higher avoidance, and my CDs will be a little weaker, but still probably better. They'll also get slightly heavier blocks (which still becomes a small deal on a boss).

I don't think we're getting over-nerfed, I also don't think the health nerf was strictly necessary, but I accept the deck I'm handed and deal with it.

Hair pulling and teeth gnashing won't make it better, if you can demonstrate that DK's will be too weak after these small changes, and can make a compelling case to Blizz, they'd likely reconsider. It's a small change though and I suspect that ultimately you won't even notice the loss.

Nez
07-23-2009, 08:38 AM
/agree with Satorri

Meythos
07-23-2009, 08:43 AM
Gotta agree with Satorri on this one. Everyone feels the sting of the nerf bat at some point and everyone lights up the forums with QQ. The PTR is where Blizz does live TESTS on ideas to tweak/nerf/balance classes. They've shown that they prefer hard data over player perception. Even the theorycrafting done here, while quite reasonable, all rests on assumptions.

Break an assumption and your theory goes out the window.

Blizz will keep working on stuff in the PTR and tweak it until it looks reasonable (i.e. NOT PERFECT) for release. Then we'll test THEIR assumptions in large scale day-to-day WoW. Expecting perfection is like expecting water from a stone.

Satorri
07-23-2009, 08:46 AM
My only beef is that I don't want to lose health, it's not a balance thing, my tank spec/playstyle harp on stacking health and Blizz is stealing a huge chunk back. Sad day indeed.

There seems to be a feeling that 3.2 is coming sooner than later, I hadn't expected it before August, but it's starting to have the pre-patch feeling.

Alexial
07-23-2009, 10:07 AM
To be honest, my main concern is for my partner, not myself, who doesn't have the gear I do. Also my example with XT wasn't with my guild partner, it was in a pug (I actually succeed where a better geared warrior tank couldn't, which really isn't right, or I might just be a better tank). So, possibly it won't be a problem cause my guild's MT healer is a damn good holy pally with 2+ years experience. I think the tanks that are really gonna be hit hard by this is the newer 80s that end up forced to run pugs to get gear cause they aren't geared for encounters their guild is running. I remember how squishy I was in blues, even though I had way more health than other tanks in my gear.

junkilo
07-23-2009, 12:28 PM
I think that perhaps he was looking at Vicious Strikes and not reading very closely.

yup my bad, thanks for correcting. I can't be the only non-DK tank having a hard time ignoring these DK Tanking QQ threads :)

Splug
07-23-2009, 01:50 PM
yup my bad, thanks for correcting. I can't be the only non-DK tank having a hard time ignoring these DK Tanking QQ threads :)Eh, there may be a few over-the-top posts somewhere in the thread, but there always are. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone though - I'm pretty sure I saw something about warrior damage relative to innate threat last week that started innocently and eventually included a few whining posts. Every class has representatives who will throw up a post for patch changes; some will be whines, some will be questions, and some will be gloating. In the end, the reaction is the same whether it's warriors, death knights, or Elvis impersonators. I don't think trying to single out the "DK tanking qq threads" as a unique or class-specific occurance is valid.

As for the overall question of whether the 3.2 changes will result in a balance or disparity - that's a question that should come up, and this is a logical place for it.

-Splug

BoltAction47
07-23-2009, 02:19 PM
As a DK tank wearing pre-25 man Naxx gear I'm able to solo Heroic Loken, Onyxia, UK, Nex, AN, ZG, Kara and maybe more that I'm not aware of. DK tanks will Still woop tanks of other classes in duels due to ridiculous self healing abilities and defensives.... So 3.2 "nerfs" the Death Knight tank's practical overpowered use but the impractical uses still remain. As far as I can tell, Death Strike will still heal me for 5k and I can still do it 3 times in a row. As far as I can tell, Rune Tap will still heal me for 7k and it's on a 30 second cooldown and as far as I can tell I will still juice out 18k from Death Pact. The uses for the OP abilities that are impractical are actually quite practical when it comes to helping guildies. Need a Kara run? Ok, I'll be there in a minute :)

And when it comes down to Icebound Fortitude, who actually Needs to use that every minute besides a starting tank.... So you mean DK starting tanks will have troubles like every other class when they are starting to tank? o.O

DK's will still be appealing.

Tzobee
07-23-2009, 04:02 PM
Im curious as to what some DKs mean when they say "we have no shield so we rely on cooldowns for mitigation". Do you even know what the shield does? I understand that you are concerned about being nerfed because it is never fun when it happens. Unfortunately it is required this time because frankly you are way ahead of some classes.

Like some know, most bosses in Ulduar seem to become angry and dangerous around every 1min making them hit hard. This is why DKs are so good right now. Not only do you have the better healthpool but you also have the cooldown for most if not all those occasions. To name a few: Hodir, Thorim, XT002 and Vezax.

I play a warrior (Yes my own choice) and even if I glyph and spend 2 talents into my Shield Wall I can only get it to 2 minutes. Why should you, w/o any effort have a 1 min cooldown which gives roughly the same mitigation? And no, removing 1500 damage every 5th swing from a 25k hitting boss does not cover it.

All that being said I do agree that some things might feel alittle over the top. I would rather see them keep Frost Pres as it is 10% health and just completely remove VoTW so that all DK speccs have an even chance.

markv
07-26-2009, 07:53 AM
I kind of quickly went through this and didn't notice if anyone posted some SBV numbers if you are stacking blocking specifically but I'll give you a quick thing that I noticed when I copied my character over.

Currently I have been working on a "Ridiculous Block Set" for my warrior for a laugh in PvP and have every item you could pretty much want for SBV except the Conquest Badge legs, which puts me @~2100 sbv unbuffed. This is going with all +str gems as well, and titanium plating shield enchant, defense chest enchant, shoulder defense enchant and the 5% sbv meta. On the PTR this set goes to ~2600 unbuffed. Also note I go with T7.5 Helm/Shoulders for the 10% SS dmg bonus, so I am sure I could eek out a bit more SBV from swapping shoulders and helm.

I generally tend to log out with the set on since I also do dailies with it, making me basically unhittable, hooray for soloing chillmaw with it! So if you're curious as to the setup you can see what I'm using.

Also for those that are curious, this translates in to 10-16k SS crits in PvP, which makes people go huh what? I did play around with gemming all defense to see what I could get my block rate to and exceeded the 50% mark, which makes naxx trash pretty hilarious in that outfit.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ysera&n=Kguku)

Miagorme
07-26-2009, 10:55 AM
The nerfs do suck, and having ~7% less health as a blood tank will also suck since I always tease the other MT (a Paladin) about it. However, I trust my healers. I don't think it'll be too big a problem. Blizzard won't destroy DK tanking.

Maelstrom
07-26-2009, 11:04 AM
since I always tease the other MT (a Paladin) about it.

Karma is a fantastic thing. :)

Miagorme
07-26-2009, 11:15 AM
Haha, yeah. It's all good though, we couldn't decide who should MT XT on an easy night so we raced to see who got there first. He got two shotted. We tease eachother all the time and help as much as we can. It's awesome. :D

More on track though, the nerfs don't mean DKs will not be able to tank anything anymore. It just means we won't do 80% of the survivability work anymore. Healers will need to step up.

Jameak
07-26-2009, 10:18 PM
I agree with you Satorri.


but it's ok to have a similar geared DK have less armor and health and no block after the patch?

No, but its okay to have a similar geared DK with about the same armor, and about the same health, and still no block after the patch - as opposed to more armor, more health, and vastly superior instantaneous mitigation cooldowns.

I do not believe DK's will be worse than the other tanks post patch, but the margin they have over other tanks as it is wont be as pronounced.

Jameak (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thaurissan&n=Jameak)

Feanorr
07-28-2009, 12:38 AM
No, but its okay to have a similar geared DK with about the same armor, and about the same health, and still no block after the patch - (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thaurissan&n=Jameak)

Sorry but no, it's not ok. Even if block isnt a huge thing, it's still something that we dont have; and since everything that we have more than other tanks (health, armor, CDs) will be gone, it's not ok.

I agree that currently DK have more advantages than other tanks, mainly because, as someone said, we got a 1min cd that can be used to mostly all critical situation in ulduar.
And I know that it wont make us enable to tank anything, but as the tank manager of our guild I know how it work when you have to chose a tank for a fight: you see what "plus" each tank have for this fight. And after 3.2, DK wont have any "plus" left, they will just have something less (block). Even if this less isnt much it's still something, and on hard fight you need all what you can to put all the chance on your side.
Exemple: between a 40k tank and a 41k tank, the difference may not be much, but if you are trying a hard mode for the first time (and if player skill are similar) you will choose the 41k one.
Well, even if block isnt a huge boost I am sure it make more difference than 1k of health.
Like for everything else in PVEHL, it's about min-maxing (not sure if my english is correct ^^)

And it would be even worse in pick up.

The CD nerf was needed (even if I would have prefered another solution, cause I like the dynamic of cd tanking), but the health and armor nerf are too much.


Niniel

protonly
07-28-2009, 04:50 AM
Block Value gear is generally garbage due to itemization, even with the proposed changes for the two classes for similar, but different reasons.

The math has been done on this forum, I can't find it but...on average, bock value would have to be increased to something like over 4000 unbuffed in order for it to bring shield users up to the mitigation of non-shield users in equal gear (3.1 mechanics). Over 4000 unbuffed block, even with 3.2 most warriors/pallys will never get close to that unbuffed (unless they're screwing around). The average block shield users carry is probably around 1300. It just isn't worth a bucket of spit.

Added block isn't going to impact the game any more than the DK being brought down a tad.

Pruke
07-28-2009, 04:55 AM
After seeing some of the loot that comes out of the new raid zone I am less worried about the nerfs to DK's. For example the 10 man normal trinket that has 114 dodge and a +1265 armor equip that stacks up to 5 times. I doubt it has 100% uptime but as our current gear stands that would push many of the decently geared DK's up to absurd amount of armor. There are a few other items like this that are going to be rather easy to attain. Then I go to the far end and look at heroic 25 drop loot. If we didn't loose stamina we would have 55k (give or take) buffed in BiS gear.

Ive tanked all content on my warrior and on my DK. My DK makes things so much easier for my healers and raid that it's not even funny. We needed brought down, maybe it was to much but I doubt that it's going to affect anything. I seriously doubt blizzard is going to destroy their newest class.

Tzobee
07-28-2009, 04:58 AM
Sorry but no, it's not ok. Even if block isnt a huge thing, it's still something that we dont have; and since everything that we have more than other tanks (health, armor, CDs) will be gone, it's not ok.

I agree that currently DK have more advantages than other tanks, mainly because, as someone said, we got a 1min cd that can be used to mostly all critical situation in ulduar.
And I know that it wont make us enable to tank anything, but as the tank manager of our guild I know how it work when you have to chose a tank for a fight: you see what "plus" each tank have for this fight. And after 3.2, DK wont have any "plus" left, they will just have something less (block). Even if this less isnt much it's still something, and on hard fight you need all what you can to put all the chance on your side.
Exemple: between a 40k tank and a 41k tank, the difference may not be much, but if you are trying a hard mode for the first time (and if player skill are similar) you will choose the 41k one.
Well, even if block isnt a huge boost I am sure it make more difference than 1k of health.
Like for everything else in PVEHL, it's about min-maxing (not sure if my english is correct ^^)

And it would be even worse in pick up.

The CD nerf was needed (even if I would have prefered another solution, cause I like the dynamic of cd tanking), but the health and armor nerf are too much.


Niniel

IBF is only one of your cooldowns, what about spell mitigation for instance? AMS, AMZ? What about your superb AOE-Threat?

Mitigation is one thing but you have serveral other cards on other tanks. Now since I am a prot warrior im more inclined to see you nerfed than say druids that are probably even more OP than DKs, if not now, then in 3.2.

Don't come off as if you are going to be broken or something, because you aren't.

lyd
07-28-2009, 07:15 AM
Dk's could tank before the nerf and they will tank after the nerf. I just wish that the stamina nerf wasn't as drastic. I am losing alot more health on the PTR than I am comfortable with : \

Caric
07-28-2009, 07:28 AM
I sincerely hope at the end of the day the nerf doesn't prove to be too much of an issue for the DK's. I am all about every tank class having an equal shot at successfully competing for the ever so coveted MT slot.

michah
07-28-2009, 09:08 AM
As long as death strike and rune tap exist, blood dk's will always be ridiculous. no worries. Interestingly enough, when blizzard does realize how bad they screwed up with those two abilities, they'll probably have to revisit alot of these other nerfs.

Satorri
07-28-2009, 09:33 AM
This thread needs to die, seeing the name pop up when it is bumped is encouraging people to keep thinking that this nerf could possibly kill DK tanking. It's laughable.

We're taking a hit, we're still going to be comparable to any other tank, let's leave it be now.

Hengist
07-28-2009, 09:41 AM
*passes his "worst, but still viable" badge to DKs*

Have fun guys! At least your next tier gear isn't polluted by unwanted stats, this alongside the new sigil and the competition for the 3rd place might become very close!

Dubzil
07-28-2009, 09:45 AM
*passes his "worst, but still viable" badge to DKs*

Have fun guys! At least your next tier gear isn't polluted by unwanted stats, this alongside the new sigil and the competition for the 3rd place might become very close!


QQ more, go play AoC

Hengist
07-28-2009, 10:24 AM
QQ more, go play AoC
QQ? I don't QQ, I'm trying to cheer you up. DKs are still viable, as viable as warriors in 3.1, just no longer the best, and probably the worst, but still within the "viable". If someone proven himself as a skilled tank in 3.1, he will still tank in 3.2.

Satorri
07-28-2009, 10:27 AM
It's the "probably the worst" part that needs to stop, and (if it were coming from a DK) would be rightly labeled as QQ.

Pruke
07-28-2009, 02:29 PM
No, warriors still be the worst since their mechanics are still broken. Even though they got bandages in 3.2 it doesn't matter. DPS/TPS will still be lower then the other tanks and since most people seem to think that is what makes the tank, warriors get to keep the title. As a prior warrior tank for several years I keep up with both sides of the fence. Also since I raid lead I tend to keep current on tanking changes. I have no tank that I prefer to tank over another. What matters is skill and the gear to handle the job. If anyone thinks that Blizzard is going to make the DK's a non-viable raid tank able to fill any role in the raid they are jaded.

Kind of sad to see a warrior or paladin come in and make comments like "HA HA" or "Welcome to my world" Just shows how mature you are and how poorly you are representing your class. The top guilds in the world used warriors tanking, they may not have been doing all of the boss tanking but I'll tell you what. Think their raid was not damn thankful to have a warrior there to taunt the immortals on Yogg no keepers and kite them away or grab adds on Algalon. Those jobs are just as important as the person keeping agro/moving the boss to avoid things.

Piece of shit posts like that make me not want to re-up my donor status to Tankspot. Place is starting to look an aweful lot like the free forums I get with WoW.

Feanorr
07-29-2009, 12:00 AM
IBF is only one of your cooldowns, what about spell mitigation for instance? AMS, AMZ? What about your superb AOE-Threat?

Mitigation is one thing but you have serveral other cards on other tanks. Now since I am a prot warrior im more inclined to see you nerfed than say druids that are probably even more OP than DKs, if not now, then in 3.2.

Don't come off as if you are going to be broken or something, because you aren't.

Well, I didnt want to bring it to the table but since you did here we go: every others tank's classes are complaining about DK's mitigation but the fact that pally have a huge lead on threat, for both AOE and single, doesnt seem to bother anyone (exept me).

Our superb AOE-threat? the only DK spec that have this is unholy and for that you loose a lot of single threat (enough to make it barely enough for non-hard fight; plus this AOE threat are also being nerfed (unholy blight going from aoe to single).
People seem to forget that the fact that DK have 3 different tanking spec also mean that they dont have all the advantages at once.
Right now, in 3.1, the best survival spec is blood; and the result of this spec is mainly what others tanks are complaining about.
And as blood, our aoe threat is weaker than druid's one and faaaar behind pally's one; war I am not sure cause I dont have any similarly equiped war in my guild to compare, but even with less gear, our war isnt worst than me for AOE threat.



Now, I never said that we were gonna be broken; just that we are loosing all our "plus", while still having some "less".

Niniel

PS: BTW you are saying druid are gonna be OP in 3.2, look at what pal got; most people doesnt seem to realise how good ardent defender is going to be but as a DK with a similar ability (yet less powerfull) in the past (WOTN before the nerf), I am guessing a huge increase in pal popularity for pally in 3.2; and I am not talking about the 2min timer thing but the passive effect: every dangerous big hit will be reduced by 30%. Think about the old sartha, if pal had this ability for sartha 3D, they would have been the first choice for it.

!3M
08-03-2009, 02:09 AM
firstly... /agree with Satorri
imho, I don't think that it's really gonna break DK tanks (not that i'm a good theorycrafter)... also, I doubt this will be thaaat much of a break unless you're in a real hardcore progression guild who demands strict performance...

I will agree that I'll feel slightly squishier than I've been before... admittedly i'm no where near some of you tanks here in gear (gnoblet's my tank if you want to armory... although i'm mostly in dps gear as I usually do my dailies before logging)... I can't remember who mentioned the deck of cards phrase (forgive me... 7 pages of opinions really does melt the brain quite abit, lol)... but yes, I'll take the cards dealt and do the best i can... because apart from my class and gear, I bring it as a player and an individual...

last bit (and sorry to sidetrack, i can't find any other threads that talk about this... also dont think it deserves a new thread...) but, has anyone read anything about DW tanking post 3.2? ElitistJerks only has DW DPS post 3.2...

P.S. i'll prolly get flamed for this but... everyone take a chill pill? :)

Satorri
08-03-2009, 06:25 AM
Dear Chronic Apocalyptic Heralds (aka QQ'ers),

Please see my new thread found here: Survival Breakdown and Evolution (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/53529-survival-breakdown-evolution.html)

This thread will be comparing the relative survival breakdowns of the 4 tanking classes through the framework of 4 very well-geared endgame tanks. These breakdowns will be evolving to compare relative survivability. Note that none of the classes are vastly inferior or superior, and also please note that the differences between tank survival is in the order of 90% damage reduction for every tank.

None of the classes are broken. They each have some nuances of their own. Mechanics that worked better than was planned, or work worse. Or mechanics that are being criticized in arenas they were not meant to be a significant factor in (i.e. block against hard hitting raid bosses).

Thank you for your constructive contributions,
Satorri

PS the world is not coming to an end, the <yourclasshere> is not going to be annexed out of tanking, and in fact we're all going to be just fine. Until the bunny rebellion...

Schwegburt
08-04-2009, 08:24 AM
I play a DK Tank now, used to play a Warrior Tank pre 3.1 hope that gives some perspective.

IBF was overpowered to begin with so it being brought to 2 min simply means it's being brought more in line w/ the other Tank cds. Crap, my Warrior still is stuck glyph + 2 talent points to just get to 2 min. Personally I think 2 min cd's on the big "Oh shit" ability should be universal, there's no reason Warriors need to pay a ridiculous cost just to bring themselves in line w/ all 3 other tanks base standards.

5% armor nerf simply brings DK's armor in line w/ the other 2 shield wearing classes. Though you could argue the miniscule dmg reduction Block offers actually covered that differential. I'm not kidding even a 30k hit 1.5k BV is a 5% dmg reduction, while it's less consistent it still is a percentage worth noting if you're looking at armor reduction + Block vs just armor reduction.

The 10% hp to 6% stam change is noticeable. It actually brings us to about the level of Warrior hp. The problem is that Warriors had the lowest hp out of the 4 to begin with. Personally, it seems like it's a little extreme to reduce our health that much and Warriors actually needed a hp buff considering they had the lowest EH and also Blocked less consistently making their damage intake more spikey than the other 4.

So in short IBF was a long time coming, I'm surprised it took THAT long for them to change it. However, the combined 5% armor and 6% stam change seems one appropriate for the most part. Pre 3.2 we pretty much had it all. Awesome EH and great avoidance, now we're pushed slightly further to having slightly better Avoidance at the expense of a minor reduction in EH. From the looks of it thinks are relatively in line, though as we've seen EH seems to be favored for progression fights. Then again it's just one factor.

Satorri
08-04-2009, 08:28 AM
I think IBF did not need to be brought down because it was better than its analogues from the other tanks, but it did need to be brought down so long as DKs had higher passive survivability than the other 4. That said, now that DK's are on the same level there as well, the CD is probably marginally appropriate but less necessary.

Nothing to do now but ride the wave, patch is live!

Schwegburt
08-04-2009, 09:37 AM
My problem with IBF was that was given boss ability cds and the seeming abundance of bosses in Ulduar that benefitted from timing survival cds . . . As we've seen on Vezax, XT, Hodir and to a lesser extent others, IBF lines up incredibly well with those high dmg moments. While other tanks can do the same w/ assistance from healers, I personally found it a bit excessive that a specific class could remove the need for cooldown support from others like DK's could.

Don't get me wrong it's nice for the whole raid and as a DK tank it's fun to solo some of that stuff. But at the same time it's fustrating to be a different class but also a Tank and know you need that support crew to do the same job.

Satorri
08-04-2009, 11:55 AM
My point is simply that the CDs are only one part of the equation. They've fixed the way it used to be where DK's were FAR more squishy outside of CDs and had better CDs to compensate, and they narrowed the gap. Now DK's will be as squishy or slightly more so, so having a slightly better CD is a form of balance.

IBF was good step better though, sharing Barkskin's CD and glyphed Shield Wall's magnitude.

TomHuxley
08-04-2009, 11:58 AM
I agree with Schwegburt; don't get me wrong, Sartorri is correct that with the new changes to DK survival the issue with CDs being OP wasn't nearly as large...except that as Schweg notes far too many bosses have burst damage timed to coincide with DK CD durations (pre 3.2).

Now you can call this a failure of encounter design (in fact I do call it that...how could they designers repeatedly design burst damage frequency to where raid healing/CD support could be trivialized by one tanks CDs but not others?. But at this juncture it's lots easier to just change the duration on DK CDs rather than retune those boss encounters.

In this sense I could even see the CD timing partially revert back as time goes on and current raids become farm/obsolete. A 1:30 or 1:45 CD would still be stronger (and hence bring some of the individual flavor back) without breaking boss encounters with 1 minute burst damage.

Edit: Sartorri, on trash, in a five-man, or on a boss without ill-timed burst damage I agree that CDs are only one part of the equation. But on Vezax and Hodir, for example, they are pretty much the only issue. This isn't like "one tank just does a bit better because of the mechanics" it's "one tank makes it a tank and spank while the others must bring external raid CDs and/or kite, either way making the fight significantly more difficult".

That said, I have no issue with IBF being a bit more powerful in some other way, or like I said above with a somewhat shorter CD but not so much that it alters the dynamics of boss encounters fundamentally.

Danky
08-29-2009, 04:02 AM
Ive been DK tanking for a while now and I have to admit I did think for a while that I had been nerfed into oblivion, I took way too much damage, had no "oh $*#@" buttons and felt very helpless when it came to watching out for myself.

I have always preferred blood for its healing and threat properties, but when it didnt cut it anymore after 3.2 I tried frost and unholy, neither did the trick for me.

I dont even want to think about how many times I respec'd to find a viable tanking spec again, but I think I found it, as I just had a "typed" ovation after tanking Ulduar 25 in a pug tonight. Feel free to critique this build, but I will swear by it for raid tanking. Pretty much I just focused on as much mitigation as possible coupled with self healing and good threat, which blood is so good at. I also pull 3k dps on mobs of 4 or more which is always a plus, about 2400 on a single target. And its really nice to have some panic buttons again.

Heres the build and note that my gear score is 2350 atm
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0355021033303310230220101300005000000000000000 000000000000052303011032000000000000000000)

influxreptile
08-30-2009, 01:21 AM
My point is simply that the CDs are only one part of the equation. They've fixed the way it used to be where DK's were FAR more squishy outside of CDs and had better CDs to compensate, and they narrowed the gap. Now DK's will be as squishy or slightly more so, so having a slightly better CD is a form of balance.

IBF was good step better though, sharing Barkskin's CD and glyphed Shield Wall's magnitude.

I see that you're totally against the word "nerf" or other DK's that are actually concerned about losing their spot. The theorycrafting thread you made (which seems to be unfinished) is going to use what as results ? I sincerely hope you're not going to make the same mistake as numerous people have my by simply checking the average damage intake over time and using that as some sort of standard.

when it comes to incoming damage in a fight, the death knight is surely on par with the other classes and seems to be fine. However, due to the now lower health, armor and no block mechanism compared to druids the only reason for this is because of their higher avoidance. The entire problem with death knights in 3.2 is that they tend to get gibbed as soon as their avoidance fails them. Algalon is a good example for this as it's simply EH that keeps you alive there and avoidance is totally worthless if you can't live through an unlucky streak. The limit for a dk in those circumstances is simply much lower in 3.2, which makes them the "worst" tank to keep alive.

Dk's are still squishy without cooldowns compared to other tanks. There's no need to overdo maths that have already been done for that.

Mathandire
09-22-2009, 01:33 AM
I see that you're totally against the word "nerf" or other DK's that are actually concerned about losing their spot. The theorycrafting thread you made (which seems to be unfinished) is going to use what as results ? I sincerely hope you're not going to make the same mistake as numerous people have my by simply checking the average damage intake over time and using that as some sort of standard.

when it comes to incoming damage in a fight, the death knight is surely on par with the other classes and seems to be fine. However, due to the now lower health, armor and no block mechanism compared to druids the only reason for this is because of their higher avoidance. The entire problem with death knights in 3.2 is that they tend to get gibbed as soon as their avoidance fails them. Algalon is a good example for this as it's simply EH that keeps you alive there and avoidance is totally worthless if you can't live through an unlucky streak. The limit for a dk in those circumstances is simply much lower in 3.2, which makes them the "worst" tank to keep alive.

Dk's are still squishy without cooldowns compared to other tanks. There's no need to overdo maths that have already been done for that.

From a healers point of view i can only agree on that the DK tanks now a days is the hardest tank class to heal, our MT is a DK and our MT healer has never had any problems healing him, until now. Our Dk tank now takes shitloads of spikedamage and its a pain keeping him alive, sure, perhaps they are more balanced towards other tanking classes but why is it then that the other tanking classes are much easier to heal?

As an example, lets take a simple instance as ToC hc, normaly as a healer u dont have to heal for that much in a hc no matter what tanking class are used, basically you heal for aroun 2k hps in totally (sometimes even less), Now when a DK tank is tanking you have to heal much more and your total hps in the same instance lands around 3-4k hps

Some of you probably already explained this, and i much likely missed it, so please explain it in simple words to a non dk player what has happened to dks tanking?

Cheers
Math

jaydee
09-22-2009, 03:19 AM
Changes (for the better) are to come to DK tanks when 3.2.2 lands. Survival cool downs are brought back to 1 minute, and improved mitigation overall. Let's wait and see what happens when it's out.

KnThrak
09-22-2009, 06:40 AM
Some of you probably already explained this, and i much likely missed it, so please explain it in simple words to a non dk player what has happened to dks tanking?

They got balanced. ^_^
Obviously it shot over the mark - the pendulum always swings, it never lingers - but that's why there's small buffs in 3.2.2 again.

lyd
09-22-2009, 07:23 AM
this thread needs to die. 3.2.2 just went live with survival buffs today and this thread is at the top of the T&M section with the words "Huge Nerf" displayed prominently in it's title. it's a little counter-productive.

Haarg
09-22-2009, 09:38 AM
Player>Class

Splug
09-22-2009, 10:10 AM
Player>ClassAnub'arak didn't get that memo.

... Why did we necro this thread after a month?

-Splug

Edgewalker
09-22-2009, 10:31 AM
Anub'arak didn't get that memo.



So true.
I wish I didn't have to switch to my paladin in Ilvl 226 gear for heroic anub.
Thanks blizz.

Satorri
09-22-2009, 11:08 AM
... Why did we necro this thread after a month?

-Splug





...



Why didn't it stay dead?