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View Full Version : On Time for raids? probably not... QQ



Truthbebold
06-18-2009, 01:05 PM
I want to start this topic and maybe figure out a better way to get people to:

A. show up on time for raids/show up at all.
B. Understand that the item will drop again and to not QQ:mad: about it, instead /cheer the person.
C. What to do with the people that don't get invited to the raid.

My guild:
we raid monday-thrusday 25m's and then friday-sunday 10m's
During the week attendance can eb hit or miss.

When we down new bosses and someoen wins the loot. a lot of people QQ. so i almost refuse to even try to upgrade because i rather not deal with the drama. I've GM ticketed maybe 6 items i've won to other guildies so i can win the respect and to keep them from crying:confused:. (everyone in the guidl is over 18)

Lastly what do i do with those that show up late and or are one time but don't get invited to the raid..:(

Guild system: 25m's the highest rank gets invited first then go downward.
25m naxx starts with recruits and goes upward. (still full clear in less then 4 hours)
Loot is "open rolls" and DKP where dkp>roll (also its a hidden bid in a pst to the raidleader. and you can only bid once. so you bid the amount = to how bad you want the item.)

DKP is awarded by showing up on time and finishing the raid when called. also new content awards dkp.

Looking for to hearing what your guild does!;)

Amillidin
06-18-2009, 01:40 PM
I don't get why people QQ if you have a DKP system.

They got the chance to bid on the item and if they didn't win it's their fault.

Truthbebold
06-18-2009, 01:54 PM
They feel like its a smaller upgrade for me so i should have not bidded on it. lol makes me want to g kick sometimes. I have the pulse shield from 10m ulduar and have enough dkp to out bid anyone for the voice of reason shield from kt. but i don't

Bokur
06-18-2009, 04:57 PM
A) Fine them DKP for being late, kick them if they keep not showing up, theyre wasting 24 other peoples time. 10 minutes late x 24 people works out as 4 lost man hours of raiding time)

B) Tell them to bid more if they really want something and not try to abuse the system to get things cheap.

C) Have them wait as standbys and award them dkp as though they attended for waiting on standby all night.

My 2p worth.

Kurtosis
06-18-2009, 09:59 PM
For 25m raids, invite 30 people, at least one extra of each role tank/heals/dps. First come first go, last 5 can go do a heroic or something. Something similar for 10m raids, whatever works best.

Eg, change/add some punctuality incentives. Charlie Munger (http://www.intelligentinvestor.com.au/articles/233/The-power-of-incentives.cfm?articleID=345231) said it best:

‘Well I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes [without me] getting some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.’
Edit: another idea - invite 35 people, with the right class breakdown for a 25m and 10m raid. First 25 get the 25m raid, others get the 10m if they want.

Fayre
06-19-2009, 05:38 AM
Oh my goodness me. That kind of behaviour should have ended when they hit their teens.

Start recruiting. Replace them.

veneretio
06-19-2009, 07:57 AM
Change your DKP system from bids to simply static DKP payment with an item going to highest DKP. I've used a bidding system in the past and talked to hundreds of people regarding it over the years and it's always a drama system. Hidden bids = no trust. Yet, DKP is suppose to create trust and empower your guildies into feeling like they've got a bit of control over what items they get.

Regardless, seriously fine people for QQing about loot and NEVER ever issue a GM ticket ever again. By giving into the complaining you are creating the problem.

phaze
06-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Vene: i think the main problem is attitude, rather than point system specifics. Many guilds (mine is one of them) function fine under a bidding system; you just need to have the corresponding guild mentality to match it.



A. show up on time for raids/show up at all.

Reward on-time players more / punish stragglers. Which of these you do, and how, is up to you. Sounds like you alread have On-Time points, so either increase these or start inviting backups when stragglers don't show.

If you have attendance issues (having to wait for the stragglers to log in before you can start), then recruit people who can find the login button. ;)



B. Understand that the item will drop again and to not QQ:mad: about it, instead /cheer the person.

Get rid of the whiners. Your guild will be healthier in the long run.



C. What to do with the people that don't get invited to the raid.

I recommend a waitlist system for rotating people in.

Tyserus
06-19-2009, 03:30 PM
I pretty much agree with what everyone says. Before you implement any major changes, just make sure your officers and class leaders have your back and aren't afraid to share the same fate as the rest of the members of your guild. Also, leading by example is always win. (i.e if you're late you may have to sit out yourself.) If your guild has a website or discussion forum, mention that these changes are coming and give an approximate date for implementation. That will allow everyone to get their QQ's out of their system and hopefully plan accordingly to meet your new, stricter attendance policies.

Good Luck!

shez
06-19-2009, 10:42 PM
i think 7 night raiding can be a bit too much? (if they are all compulsory in your guild, for us we do 4 nights 25man and rest 10man which are optional)

we raid 4 nights a week if any of our members can't attendance 75%, we'll just recruit more and replace them, however, we do communicate individually to members regarding attendance.

About loot, i think static dkp is better like vene said, i've never liked bid (especially close bid), its clear who is getting the loot, no arguments.

Ciderhelm
06-19-2009, 11:07 PM
I've used a bidding system in the past and talked to hundreds of people regarding it over the years and it's always a drama system.
No it's not.

Hidden bids = no trust. Yet, DKP is suppose to create trust and empower your guildies into feeling like they've got a bit of control over what items they get.
Since when was DKP meant to create trust? No DKP system will alter a person's emotional character and that should never be an aim for it.

Meeks
06-19-2009, 11:34 PM
I have never been a part of a DKP system I have enjoyed. Always hated them for the myriad of abuses that are inherent in the system.

The best overall loot system I have been a part of was actual a random roll system with minor officer oversight. The way it worked our website monitored your past 2-3 months attendance and then you were given a bo0nus to your roll depending on that. So if you had 90-100% attendance you go an extra 75 on your roll(or something close, forget exact value), 80-90% got a smaller bonus and below that got nothing.

When a new member joined they would be at 0% attendance and would have to be one for a while to get a bonus. System sounds stupid describing it but in practice it worked beautifully. The people that raided got the gear the quickest and people did not ignore small upgrades to save their dkp for big upgrades...anything that could be used was used.

In cases or someone going on a ridiculous lucky streak rolling officers would skip their roll but that only happened a couple times over 6+ months.

minrog
06-19-2009, 11:57 PM
I've worked within a DKP bidding system in the past. By this I mean it was more like a silent auction with bids and counter bids; as opposed to having flat or Null DKP. I found it was very vulnerable to collusion on pricing as well as fostering point competitions.

The problem that I had with the system was that members of the raid would apply pressure to individuals of the same class in order to gain a greater share of the equipment that dropped. Unless the goal of the system is to alienate less forceful players in your raids I'm not sure this system can fulfill your needs. The OP's delimma matches what I have witnessed.

I respectfully disagree with Ciderhelm's assertion that a DKP system is not meant to create trust. The entire purpose of a DKP system is to make loot decisions seem transperant (whether or not they are) and to prevent accusations of favoritism from imploding the guild. Only a small fraction of guilds will ever need or benefit from having the first few drops go to the right people as you can see from Ulduar progression lists. If your guild hasn't been able to down Ulduar (or perhaps even get past XT) you're goal needs to be preventing total guild failure due to arguments as opposed to worrying about who gets what. In these cases it is better to make loot distribution perfunctory and efficient by using a number system of some kind.

Ciderhelm
06-20-2009, 12:02 AM
The entire purpose of a DKP system is to make loot decisions seem transperant (whether or not they are) and to prevent accusations of favoritism from imploding the guild.
No it's not. If that was the entire purpose of a DKP system, guilds would universally use /roll.

Any effective DKP system is built on incentivization. It's not built on fairness, it's not built on trust, it's not built on any ethical or moral principles. Those things can be a part of it, but they aren't core to what DKP is.

To illustrate with an example: Monetary currencies such as US Dollars don't exist for charities. However, charitable giving is often done in currency. This only works so long as people value the currency in it's primary role.

Truthbebold
06-20-2009, 01:02 AM
I agree with ciderhelm on that. i think i'm completely fair with my leading. the open rolls is what we used to have and once we got 25m naxx on farm and turningtide was dropping left and right. people would almost g quit because they show up night after night and worked there butt off to get 25m naxx on farm and then some new recruit comes in and rolls a 100 and got it. so we added the dps system and it works fine. but i wish i could get more respect and concentration out of my raiders.

the incentivization that cider mentioned, is why we added points for showing up at the start of the raid and ending at the start of the raid. 1 point at the start and 1 at the end. worked great. but i counted wednesday night for our raid. we had 16 "core raiders" (guild rank) not show. so we made due with some new guys and still cleared 5 bosses in uldaur25m

"just wish i can reach through the computer and slap people sometimes"

RialÚv
06-20-2009, 01:42 AM
When we switched to a points based looting system, it did exactly what it was intended to do, ensure promptness, and ensure that people were doing their best to improve.

Our points system is a little complex, but it is an open system. No one whispers anyone.

The bidding is not exactly a bid so much as it is a currency/barter.

Mainly it's a glorified EPGP.

Where EP/GP = PR. However EP is not a cumulative amount of points that doesn't decrease, as it's original addon is designed. EP is a currency spent on the item. I use an equation to determine how much EP it actually costs.

{(iLvL +25) * slot modifier} / 2 = EP Cost.

normally it doesn't go very high.

That EP cost is divided amongst those who did not win the item, and is taken away from the one who did. He is given the correct amount of GP for the item, his PR goes down, theirs goes up.

It has worked thus far, and has yet to spark loot drama.

The EP tables have been posted on our site for reference, so everyone knows exactly what they should get from an item.

So far, it's worked tremendously well. I've seen DKP systems in the past that are based off of secret bids... they normally make for disgruntled, and as said, distrustful members.

GravityDK
06-20-2009, 01:50 PM
Any effective DKP system is built on incentivization. It's not built on fairness, it's not built on trust, it's not built on any ethical or moral principles. Those things can be a part of it, but they aren't core to what DKP is.


I totally agree.

Benolan
06-22-2009, 05:14 AM
I'm in a casual raiding guild with a similar schedule to the OPs.. we have some of the same issues with people showing up late, and if one day noone needed any explanations on the bosses the Earth would crack open and split in half from the shock.. But we don't have QQing for loot..

I see some of the DKP discussion above and I won't get into that. All I will say is we just do the main spec/off spec rolls and I can't remember any QQing in guild or raid. If they did we'd probably stop inviting them. I think the issue is you didn't nip it when it first started.. Everyone is build the points the same way, they all have a choice to use theirs or not.. if they don't like the decision they make then tough. If they want to complain to everyone afterwards hoping for some pity gear you don't want them around anyways.

bludwork
06-22-2009, 07:21 AM
Your problem with loot happens because you spend too much time discussing loot. Whether it's loot council, DKP or some hybrid once the rules are set it's done. When stuff drops stick to the rules give out loot and move on. Never make it a discussion. If someone is not happy with loot rules they can take it up after not raid, not during.

A & C are easy to fix. The more you show up the more you get invited to raids. From the way you describe it it looks like you have the clique you take to raids and use others are fillers, however your some in your clique have bad attendance. Reward good attendance and punish bad ones. For example there can be a rule that if you miss the previous raid there's no automatic invite to the next one.

Warwench
06-22-2009, 07:29 AM
We got around these things in 3 ways.

We encourage everyone to have a "wish list" published on our guild website. It makes them research their gear and their class and it lets others know that something might be BiS or a huge upgrade for someone else. It stops people from bidding on "minor" upgrades that might be major for someone else, and lets them know what gear they want drops from what boss.

We use EPGP which in my personal opinion is better than any DKP system out there. just make sure you keep it pretty simple.. my rule is let EPGP sort out the issues. If you set it up right (pretty much as the guide/site says) then tell everyone to /roll for the items they want, EPGP will determine the winner.

We see zero drama between this and wish lists. It's all very transparent, people know what loot other people want, they know where they stand in EPGP in real time. we see many many many occurences of someone passing loot to another player because it's on their wish list.

To encourage people to be on time, our invites start at 8:00 EST, People need to be online at that time. First round of invites start at 8 and are done by about 8:05. once the raid leader has invited everyone who is currently online who signed up, he starts our periodic EPGP. those on time, get bonus EP. We then fill the raid with people who didnt sign up (but are online) and then those that turn up before our 8:30 pull time.

so far these 2 items (EPGP, EPGP for ontime and wish lists) have made loot secondary, it's about killing bosses and progression now.

Cookie
06-22-2009, 07:08 PM
Next time they QQ, just tell them that if they wanted the item that badly, they should've bidded what they thought it was worth. Too cheap to bid more? Then they obviously didn't want it that badly. Don't have enough dkp? Come to more raids.

You are encouraging their behaviour by ticketing.

But I'm not a fan of hidden bids, I think it's an unfair system because I'm paranoid. I'd rather have open bids or flat or % dkp fees to the person with the most dkp.

phaze
06-24-2009, 01:14 PM
But I'm not a fan of hidden bids, I think it's an unfair system because I'm paranoid. I'd rather have open bids or flat or % dkp fees to the person with the most dkp.

Say Player A bids 40 for an item. Player B sees them make that bid, and also wants the item and is willing to bid 80 for it. Player B will instead bid 41 to win it, just like The Price Is Right. This also means whoever speaks up first on a bid is at a disadvantage, unless you allow multiple-round bidding (auction style).

Want silent bidding to be fair? Take bids silently; then once bidding is closed, the winner pays 2nd bid + 1. So, taking the above example: A bids 40, B bids 80. Bidding is closed, so B gets the item for 41 points. Both players bid what they felt it was worth to them, without trying to game the system. This approximates what would naturally happen in an auction: the winner is the one willing to pay the most, but they'll stop just after the 2nd place guy bows out.

Cookie
06-25-2009, 06:53 AM
Say Player A bids 40 for an item. Player B sees them make that bid, and also wants the item and is willing to bid 80 for it. Player B will instead bid 41 to win it, just like The Price Is Right. This also means whoever speaks up first on a bid is at a disadvantage, unless you allow multiple-round bidding (auction style).

Want silent bidding to be fair? Take bids silently; then once bidding is closed, the winner pays 2nd bid + 1. So, taking the above example: A bids 40, B bids 80. Bidding is closed, so B gets the item for 41 points. Both players bid what they felt it was worth to them, without trying to game the system. This approximates what would naturally happen in an auction: the winner is the one willing to pay the most, but they'll stop just after the 2nd place guy bows out.
I don't think you got my point. I don't think it's unfair due to the bidding process, it's just something that's as prone to corruption as loot council. The person taking bids can easily tell their friends what everyone else is willing to pay so they bid accordingly.

I'm not a fan of +1 bids either, I'd rather have a time limit on bids with a minimum increment. People trying to top eachother with +1 is just a waste of everyone else's time.

phaze
06-25-2009, 08:33 AM
The person taking bids can easily tell their friends what everyone else is willing to pay so they bid accordingly.

Not trusting your raid leader (or whoever is in charge of handing out the loot) is a problem no matter which loot system you end up using.

Truthbebold
06-26-2009, 09:11 AM
Say Player A bids 40 for an item. Player B sees them make that bid, and also wants the item and is willing to bid 80 for it. Player B will instead bid 41 to win it, just like The Price Is Right. This also means whoever speaks up first on a bid is at a disadvantage, unless you allow multiple-round bidding (auction style).

Want silent bidding to be fair? Take bids silently; then once bidding is closed, the winner pays 2nd bid + 1. So, taking the above example: A bids 40, B bids 80. Bidding is closed, so B gets the item for 41 points. Both players bid what they felt it was worth to them, without trying to game the system. This approximates what would naturally happen in an auction: the winner is the one willing to pay the most, but they'll stop just after the 2nd place guy bows out.


You are totally thinking about this the wrong way. Like i said before my guild uses silent bidding.
The rules: everyone rolls first. then if someone chooses to bid dkp because they lost the roll they whisper the raid leader once. They are allowed only 1 bid which only the raid leader knows.

The "one" bid and the "silent bidding" is ment for the person wanting the item to bid how ever much it is worth to them..

I just won the holy paladin helm off 25m iron council. I rolled a 5/100 (go figure) so i used dkp. I bidded 30 dkp and won it. The next person after me bidded 8 dkp.

Thats the Point right there, we want people to over spend their dkp therefor keeping there dkp lvls low. and making people spend what the item is worth to them.

Some items i would spend all my dkp, others i would spend 5 dkp. but for another person in the raid they might spend all there dkp on the item i would only spend 5 on..

So baically the item ends up going to the person who needs it the most. (Most beneficial looting method for our guild)

Thanks
Truth

phaze
06-26-2009, 01:04 PM
So baically the item ends up going to the person who needs it the most. (Most beneficial looting method for our guild)


If this is the core purpose of your loot system, then you can do away with the unneccessary rolling that occurs in parallel with the point bidding. The change shouldn't affect your distribution, and it simplifies your process. But that's up to you.

Acheronia
06-27-2009, 09:12 AM
Divine Edge - FAQ - WowStead (http://divinedge.wowstead.com/faq)

That link points to the FAQ on my guild site, where I explain our looting system, EPGP. Most people reading will know all the details, but the link is mainly for the benefit of those that don't.

I deal with complaints about loot in a very simple manner: I don't. It's not up for discussion. I refer them to that very same link and tell them they're welcome to ask me about how the looting system works. End of discussion.

I also don't fight with people for being late or not showing up. 15 minutes before the raid starts, I invite everyone who accepted. All the people that join the raid get a 50 point bonus. I immediately start looking for alternative people to fill the remaining spots, starting with the rest of the guildies, then friends and friends of friends, and then lastly LFG.

Work out a little routine for yourself how to deal with this with the least amount of begging, pleading, threatening, fighting and shouting. You'll only end up extremely unhappy. Stick to your routine. The people will soon find out that they either fall in line or they fall out and are replaced by people who actually want to be there.

holyjebus
07-03-2009, 11:31 PM
thanks veneretio, what you said was straight to the point and made a lot of sense to me not saying the other idea's are bad i think there is a different solution for different problems and different people, but thanks the best soultion for me is and has been said by veneretio. cheers mate :)

Genova
07-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Make sure your DKP system is very well stated on your website, forums and guild charter as well. If it is right there in text, then people have no reason to complain. Putting it in text like that makes it static and if anyone ever has issues or doesnt like it... remind them they agreed to it and if they dont like it... the door is >>>>>>. Knuckle down on them, most people will whine and groan if they think they will get their way... stop letting them get what they want by whining. Sure a few people will most likely leave (you dont want whiners in your guild anyway), but recruit and replace them. Another thing is make sure all new recruits know the loot system and understand it, it'll save you time in raid having to explain it.

Kerchunk
07-07-2009, 01:54 PM
In my opinion a well-run loot council populated by guild members that are universally trusted is the best way to distribute loot. People struggle so hard to come up with a system that takes into account the myriad of factors we all want to consider when distributing items, but you just end up with something that looks like a problem from someone's 3rd-year calculus final and it does nothing to quell people who are going to find a reason to bitch about loot no matter what.

Loot council, if run correctly, is free to take into consideration recent loot acquired, importance to current raid progression, senriority, recent and lifetime attendance, attitude, contributions outside the raid in terms of 10-man attendance, donations to the guild (gold and materials), respect for fellow raid members, ability to take/follow direction, willingness to dual spec or modify specs to benefit the raid, etc., etc.

Every DKP or modified-DKP system I've experienced has favored two things above all else - seniority and attendance. If you have been around awhile and attend a good amount of raids, then you get whatever loot you want even if you happen to be recently playing poorly, not executing well on particular fights, treating people with disrespect, QQing about loot or progression, etc.

Loot council keeps old raiders accountable. If they don't stay in shape, stay up to date on fights, and keep contributing in ways other than just "showing up" then they can get supplanted by newer members who are outperforming them or might be more important to current raid progression (say, for example, a veteran Warlock just quit and you replaced him but you want to gear up the new guy quickly to ensure a smooth transition).

No DKP system I've seen can adapt to the constantly changing and circumstances of a guild the way loot council can. It's prone to abuse, but as long as the person responsible for choosing members of the loot council is fair and a good judge of character, then you can always smooth out the potential for corruption and favoritism by bringing new blood and a fresh perspective into loot council to vote on item distribution.


One of the very nice things about loot council is it's able to respond very quickly to people who complain/QQ. Make an issue out of loot? The council is going to consider that next time an item drops that you need. Continue to cause drama? Find another guild. It works really well in weeding out people who raid for loot as opposed to the ones who raid for community and progression.

phaze
07-08-2009, 08:25 AM
In my opinion a well-run loot council populated by guild members that are universally trusted is the best way to distribute loot.

Also known as the 'benevolent dictator' form of ideal government. Nice in theory, not such a great track record in practice. ;)



It's prone to abuse

The leading complaint of people who don't like Loot Council. Some guilds just aren't suited for dictatorships.

The other major complaint against Loot Council is lack of transparency: players don't know where they stand when it comes to who gets upgraded next. For some guilds this isn't a big deal, while for some guilds it is.



Every DKP or modified-DKP system I've experienced has favored two things above all else - seniority and attendance.

That's their purpose, yes. ;)



One of the very nice things about loot council is it's able to respond very quickly to people who complain/QQ. Make an issue out of loot? The council is going to consider that next time an item drops that you need. Continue to cause drama? Find another guild. It works really well in weeding out people who raid for loot as opposed to the ones who raid for community and progression.

Raid discipline does not have to be tied to your loot distribution method. If players can't keep up, it's ok to bench / kick them, rather than bring them along while preventing them from gaining upgrades.

There's nothing inherently good/bad about loot councils or point systems, for handing out items. It's all about finding the one that works best for your guild.

Kerchunk
07-09-2009, 02:24 PM
Also known as the 'benevolent dictator' form of ideal government. Nice in theory, not such a great track record in practice. ;)

The leading complaint of people who don't like Loot Council. Some guilds just aren't suited for dictatorships.

I'm not sure what you think a "loot council" is but "dictatorship" is exactly the opposite. A council implies a group of people, a dictatorship one. A loot council properly assembled consists of trusted, senior, high-attendance raiders from a variety of classes who can offer opinions on itemization and gearing across many classes while also assessing raiders' attendance, raid awareness, attitudes, contributions, abilities to listen and take direction, etc., etc.

A council votes, and if the vote is close a discussion ensues as to the benefits and drawbacks of awarding gear to the disputed parties. If no consensus can be reached, a /roll among the disputed raiders can easily resolve close calls or tie votes.


Raid discipline does not have to be tied to your loot distribution method. If players can't keep up, it's ok to bench / kick them

It's not always that simple. Not every guild has the benefit of a wait list of raiders waiting to replace people who are benched or kicked. Some guilds have trouble fielding a full 25 on raid night, so just booting people left and right is not an option. Guilds need to foster better raiders from the ones they have by encouraging improvement in rotations, raid awareness, behavior, etc.

When people are under-performing in our guild they see immediate results. Gear starts to go to players who are doing their jobs better. You would be amazed how quickly this makes people shape up and get their heads back in the game. It works a lot better and more effectively than just repeating the same instructions over vent in an angrier voice.


There's nothing inherently good/bad about loot councils or point systems, for handing out items. It's all about finding the one that works best for your guild.

Agreed, but I stand by my claim that loot council is the most dynamic and flexible of all systems. DKP seems to unviersally favor two things above all others: attendance and seniority and while that works okay in most cases, sometimes there are other factors which need to be considered.

Penlowe
07-09-2009, 08:56 PM
I'm afraid most of the responders have gotten sidetracked by the loot system itself and not the root of the issues.


A. show up on time for raids/show up at all.
B. Understand that the item will drop again and to not QQ about it, instead /cheer the person.
C. What to do with the people that don't get invited to the raid.

A & B the problem is the same: lack of discipline. Not lack of discipline on the part of the players, lack of discipline on the part of the raid leader(s), officers and GM. If you do not enforce the rules you have written you can't expect them to follow them. This is not an age related issue either.
Kicking butt & taking names is not fun, but if you don't enforce the rules you've laid out (preferably on your website somewhere that every raider is required to read) you will never stop having problems with A & B.
If your posted rules are good, them announce that the butt kicking has begun and stick to it. If not, it's time to start writing. Some guilds have a Sargent at Arms solely for the purpose of discipline preparing for and during raids, which greatly relieves the RL.

For issue C I advocate awarding whatever brownie points you can as long as they stay on line for the duration of the raid if your guild defines itself as a raiding guild. Track attendance & rotate them in if your system allows, encourage running 5 mans.
If your guild doesn't define itself as a raiding guild, even though you do raid, do NOT tolerate whining from folks who are not raid ready/ capable, that's worse than any discipline issue among dedicated raiders. In my book, Joe Schmo who plays 3 hours a week and doesn't even have a dungeon blue set whimpering in guild chat about 'wishing he could see Ulduar just once' isn't worth having in your guild. The appropriate response is 'put up or shut up' although it can be tempered much more kindly.