View Full Version : Tankadin needing help
06-16-2009, 09:55 AM
OK im new to this game (4 months) and im the main tank in our guild. Were still fairly early in content currently were on 10 man naxx VoA OS and we havnt encountered any problems....However when it comes to trash pulls ive been finding it hard to keep pace with rouges and mages.
Most rouges do stealth and get behind the guy which isnt a problem but there machine gun dps and sometimes i lose aggro.
I figure i must be doing something wrong
My armory currently is : The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blood+Furnace&n=Adalynn)
My usual trash rotation is to pull with avengers shield then fire consecrate then Hammer of the righteous into the 6969 rotation.
Any suggestions? Gearing? Rotation
Please be mindful that i can only do 10/25 naxx voa os so ulduar is out of my reach atm. I can really use some pointers here i want to do the very best i can but this problem has been eluding me.
06-16-2009, 12:07 PM
So couple of things:
- Have the rogues tricks of the trade you before they unleash fan of knives
- Add Glyph of Vengence (drop spiritual attunement)
- Add glyph of sense undead (drop might)
- Use this build The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=0000000000000000000000000005005135203102311333 31232151130050000300000000000000)
- Switch to Terrace Defense boots or Greaves of Ancient Evil (or the Sabaton's off of Noth if you're lucky)
- Eat a fish feast or Dragonfin Fillet
- You can use a strength/guru's elixir combo rather than stoneblood if you're having threat issues.
06-16-2009, 12:34 PM
First, let me say OMW for the Build that HeadKnocker posted.
(OH MY WORD)
Not to be mean or anything.
I Main tank Ulduar 10, Naxx 25, and soon to be Ulduar 25
This is the Spec That I use and Stand by.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Sentinels&cn=Steves&gn=Anomic+Micawber)
Second, the Divine Sacrafice and divine Guardian are not for Main tanks.
Usually Ret paladins take on those talents since they are not taking main
boss damage. (Divine Guardine then Bubble FTW)
Last, Divinity Is your best friend Extra Healing Done to you How could you pass that up, Your Healers Would love you. Also Reckoning is Awsome Don't forget it either.
06-16-2009, 12:43 PM
Divinity contributes more to overhealing than healing.
Divine Guardian is taken for the extra uptime on Sacred Shield and for the increased amout of absorb. Divine Sacrifice is a prereq for it, but can be used to great effect on things like Yogg Saron Phase 2 and Mimiron Phase 2.
Reckoning is a poor TPS talent. You would get far more threat by going into the Ret tree with something like a 53/18 build.
I recommend you check out the Talent Spec section at MainTankadin: Maintankadin • Index page (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZA0xA0uMusIufdts0x0c) is similar to what I use but I moved points from Divinity to DS/DG. Both are about equally mariginal and just taken to get deeper in the tree.
06-16-2009, 12:58 PM
^^ I agree wit Honorshammer.
Here is my spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Stonemaul&cn=Hoyb&gn=Variance)
Headknocker's advice is valid IMO and his spec is not bad. Personally, I wouldn't go with the bonus crit from the ret tree, but it could help a little with threat.
If you're using 6969, your rotation should be good. If there are multiple adds, I like to tab target through them to build up some single target threat on them, as well as aoe threat, but I know some other tanks that do not do this, and some DPS who don't like it because they /assist the tank.
Your gear looks pretty good, just keep gearing up, the more damage you do, the more threat you'll hold.
06-16-2009, 01:00 PM
Also, like Headknocker said, if you have rogues, have them put tricks of the trade on you, and hunters should always misdirect to you. It'll help a tremendous amount if it isn't happening now.
06-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I only left the DG/DS points there because he had the ability in his base build and thus might have a reason to find it useful (I didn't change that part of his build). I basically just upped his threat by redistributing other points. It doesn't happen to be my exact build, just a build well suited to the problem that he presented (trash threat problems).
Some like divinity, some like DG/DS. I don't particularly like either and use them just create enough points to get further down the tree. Pre-ulduar divinity is going to go mostly to overhealing. Honorshammer's build (which is perfectly fine) is essentially the same build chosing divinity over DG/DS.
To comment on your proposed build, reckoning won't provide you the threat output of the same points in the ret tree. Not taking a point in improved judgement means that you're not doing a 9696 rotation and that nerfs you badly.
06-16-2009, 01:09 PM
How does it Nerf me Badly, I don't loose threat When I tank.
06-16-2009, 01:17 PM
9696 is the optimal pally threat rotation because you don't lose any GCD"s. If you aren't using that then you are producing less threat than you should for your gear level. You can't use it without 1 point in improved judgement.
You may be fine or you may not be, depends on the DPS you hang out with.
06-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Caveat: I am NOT God's gift to Paladin Tanking.
My experience, however, is that if I can keep agro for the first 4-5 seconds, I will never lose it. The trick is to hang in there those first few seconds.
With Rogues: they are primarily single target. Their main problem is that they jump the gun, going full bore before you have enough agro lead.
First, the #1 solution is to get them to do "Tricks of the Trade" before the pull. You get any agro they generate for 6 seconds AND you get a +15% damage buff for 6 seconds (which I believe includes what you do to other mobs). This puts you well ahead of the rogue and will also help with someone else doing AoE damage.
Second, teach them to count to 3 before opening their attack. They can also switch targets after their first finishing move and switch back after they do a finishing move on the second target. After that, you should be well ahead of them and what they do shouldn't matter.
Third, If I can't teach them to count to 3 (its amazing how many just can't do that...) before opening up, I make sure to mark the first mob to die with a skull (even on trash pulls) and I focus on that mob for the first entire Consecrate-9-6-9-6-9 rotation and THEN I start rotating between the other mobs. They haven't caught me yet. The problem with this is that you are essentially relying on Consecrate and any splash damage (i.e. hits more than one mob) to hold all the other mobs while you get your agro lead over the rogue. To do this, you open with consecrate which hurts your agro development over-all (not the optimal opening). If you have some one else (mage...) ALSO spamming AoE's, it can get tricky. Solution #1 is your best bet.
Fourth - and I've used this - is to tell the healers not to heal them for any reason in the first 5 seconds of the fight and to not heal them if they get agro. Period. I find it takes about 4-6 deaths in a row and then they "get it" and start looking more seriously at options #1 and #2.
With Mages, it is a bit harder. I also play a mage so I am a little sympathetic here, but not too much. Mages like to AoE when there are 3 or more mobs - the math works out best for the mana/DPS issues that way. The more mobs, the better their mechanics work for AoE. Normally the most mobs are at the beginning of a fight, exactly when you are trying to gain initial agro on all mobs. Mage's agro dumps are on longer cooldowns, so they may not be available for each and every fight if you are moving fast.
First, have a Mage wait for the consecrate splash and count to 3. I will open with consecrate (again, not optimal, but...) and then tab between mobs using my 9-6-9-6-9 rotation as quickly as I can. This normally is all it takes. If the Mage can't count to 3 either, or they just have too much darn spellpower, I will throw in a 9-tab-6-tab-9 rotation (while I gather/position the mobs) and THEN hit consecration. The Hammer of Justice ability helps a bunch, as well as getting a few more Retribution & block ticks, etc.
Other than having them delay their opening attack, I am not sure what you can do with Mages. There is always the "don't heal them" incentive program, and you can hit them with a bubble right before you pull to drive the point home (it takes them a few seconds to figure out what happened and to click off the buff...). Mirror Image only "hides" their agro for a while, it doesn't do away with it. That may be all you need to get your agro lead, but the clones can do strange things and in some cases this is really bad. Invisibility dumps their agro to zero, but that is worthless at the very beginning of the fight - they might as well just wait a few seconds before starting to attack.
As a mage, it kills me because it bites into my DPS, but I will often cast 2 single target spells on the "skull" mob and then switch to AoE - and just hope I get a chance to maximize the AoE time before mobs start dying off. This lets the tank gain a bit more group threat before my blizzard rains down on them all. But it really bites to start a Blizzard or have a Flamestrike about to pop, and then have most of the mobs die, because I was too late.
Rogues and Mages do have ways to reduce their threat and should know when/how to use them. That is a fundamental part of their class and you are right to expect them to know how to manage their threat. On a Boss, they will want to wait until later to use these abilities since it will make a much bigger difference than using them up front in the fight. On trash mobs, they will lose one CD, but if that keeps them from dying, so be it. The Mage abilites aren't as good/effective as the Rogue's, but it is still their job to manage their threat relative to your threat.
(FYI - my signature reflects my healing gear as I've been asked to do that role recently and that's what I logged out wearing...)
06-16-2009, 01:56 PM
Thx for your input guys. keep it coming. Im seriously looking at the 53/18 build. Though how much diffrence does cursade make? I Kno naxx crawls with undead but does ulduar have alot of humanoids and elementals? Also having looked back on the fights the rouge wasnt tricks of the trading me and the hunters werent misdirecting unless i told them to. Im goin got have to remember to do so.
One problem i have to and plan to adress is leadership during raids. Too many stragetys and ppl doing there own thing. Im going to have to put my foot down and make ppl wait b4 opening fire misdirecting and tricking. Thats a main problem i have is DPS firing everything they got and i lose aggo for a split second in the opening 5 sec or so and a dps dies on me.
Kfealz i like your spec also. I may dual them both and try them both out. I offspec holy but i never use it so i may just drop it.
Thanks for your input guys im still relitivly new learning the fights and such. this issue had me banging my head against the wall lol
06-16-2009, 02:06 PM
So in Naxx with all the undead, Crusade is a nice threat bump (200-300tps). Convinction isn't as good, but beats out SotP slightly and lets you get to Crusade.
You can tempt the hunter if they want to open up with AOE and maximize their place on the dps meter have them MD. If they don't want to MD have them wait and single target. They fall for it every time (even if it isn't really the way for them to top the meters).....
06-16-2009, 02:18 PM
Makes sence. Imma try it out. SotP was a small notice to me anyway. IN the 53/18 build i may drop 2 points in crusade for pursuit just for the speed bonus because 15% speed is noticable.
06-16-2009, 02:42 PM
I'm not sure if you just forgot to say but you need to put up Holy Shield while you are OOC before you Avenger. Lay down consecrate, hammer the skull and then hit SoTR.
Holy shield + consecrate will hold for AOE and hammer will hold the skull for single target dps. Then you can go into your normal rotation.
06-16-2009, 02:52 PM
Aceir287 - I would strongly recommend the 53/18 spec. It has been run through the numbers and found to be more optimal. That doesn't mean other specs don't work, they just are sub-optimal for threat, staying alive, and DPS. For example, 5/5 in Seals of the Pure gives +15% damage for one single spell with a 10 sec cooldown. This is not as good as a +5% Crit chance on ALL spells and attacks (i.e. Conviction) and, as headknocker says above, it gets you to Crusade. It has also been repeatedly demonstrated that having just 1 point in Improved Judgements (not 2...) gives you a spell rotation that minimizes the amount of time you stand around waiting for cooldowns to finish and maximizes threat and DPS. These aren't "maybe's" or "depends on the situation". The 96969 rotation IS the BEST threat production rotation and requires only 1 point in Imp. Judgements.
You do have some choices still to make in putting the 53 points in the Protection Tree. Personally, I put 3 points in Reckoning to give me a 6% chance to get an extra hit. I feel it is good to help put "one more" Vengence buff up to help w/ agro as I tab madly around the mob ring. Others prefer Divinity (+3% Healing on you) or DS/DG (absorb damage). They are all fairly minor improvements and the real reason for taking them is to be able to take the talents higher up the tree. If you don't believe Tankspot.com, you can arrive and the same conclusions at ElitistJerks.com or a number of other Pally tanking sites. If the do the numbers, they arrive at the same conclusions.
06-16-2009, 03:25 PM
For example, 5/5 in Seals of the Pure gives +15% damage for one single spell with a 10 sec cooldown.
That's not a very good way to phrase it. It is +15% damage to the judgment AND to the blood corruption dot. It is quite a substantial amount of consistent damage and threat over the course of a fight.
06-16-2009, 04:00 PM
everything has been noted. 53/18 looks like the way to go so imma do that
06-22-2009, 08:34 AM
I Tried the Spec 53/18 spec for my last ulduar raid and It went bad. My threat wasn't as high as it was with my old spec, They didn't pull from me , but i wasn't getting any higher than 4500tps, Normally I get around 5,000tps to 6,000tps and with wings I get 7,000tps to 8,000tps. I am sorry to who all believe that the 53/18 spec better, but I do not see it. I would rather do more damage and threat all the time then bank on gettting crits with my spells and attacks. Take it or Leave it. For Aceer, I would recommend my spec for him. Just look up Steves in the Armory.
Also with 3.2 coming out, putting points in Seals of the Pure would help out alot
3.2 Update -
Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.
06-24-2009, 03:00 AM
My usual trash rotation is to pull with avengers shield then fire consecrate then Hammer of the righteous into the 6969 rotation.
Any suggestions? Gearing? Rotation
So it's the skull you are losing?
And what seal are you using SOV?
Remember the consecrate is mainly only locking the off mobs its only mild threat generate on skull
You can also easily slip excorcism in for extra initial threat and of coarse the good old hammer time on trash to stun it so you get a chance to get some more threat up on it.
Last caveat is you do have hand of salv if you really have to which you can place on the rogue before the pull ... you shouldn't need to but hey it it's useful do it.
06-24-2009, 03:40 AM
for opening on a single mob I use avengers shield and exorcism, then the mob is usually in range for judgement+shield of the righteous. I then use holy shield hammer and contniue the 9696 rotation.
on multiple mob pulls I lay down the consecrate before I pull, then avengers shield, exor, holy shield, HotR, consecrate and then I do 9696 on the mobs tabbing through if there is more than 4 targets.
in pull 1 I generally have around 30k aggro on it before it reaches me.