View Full Version : I'm getting hit hard, real hard.

06-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Firstly, I'm new to the forum so hey :) Nice set-up going here :)

I'll get it out the way now that I know this has been said before over and over, and arguments have ensued that states that Warriors, Paladins and Druids get the same bashing.. but I really don't think so.

In Frost Presence my stats are as follows:

29k health
24k armor
21.1% dodge
14.74% parry
545 defense

I used to tank Unholy spec due to being a lover of the AoE threat that comes with it, but due to my low avoidance I changed over to frost last night thinking it'd be better... it's exactly the same, just that I happen to have another pop at an IBF equivalent every 2 minutes.

I've managed to OT half of Naxx10 (group called it quits as it was getting late), I've been OT on an OS10 run also which was fine. I've done VoA 3 times, on 1 occasion I was kicked because I was taking regular 11k hits. I've also done a shed load of heroics, but I regularly see my health slipping badly.

Normally, I'd just blame the healers.. but my main happens to be a healer, so I know the deal. When I heal heroics there are some mob fights where I don't even have to heal a Paladin/Warrior, and even if I do it's just a quick FoL and they're back upto full health. Me; if I pull a group of 2 or 3 then it's not unusual to see my health go down to 3/4 to 1/2 regularly. Especially so in UK up until the first boss.

I know my over avoidance is a bit low, sitting at a touch under 36%, but surely I shouldn't be getting abused in heroics like this?

I'm currently saving for my chestpiece (80 Emblems of Heroism), but with my struggle in heroics I'm a bit hesitant to put a group through the hassle so that save is going slowly. I'm also about to start farming Kirin Tor to get the epic gloves they have, but again, that will take time.

Finally, to end a lengthy post, is there any advice I can get on maybe gemming differently, different enchants or what I could possibly be doing wrong to be getting hit like that? It's a bitch going into heroics and having to warn the healer that I'm gonna be getting hit hard..

Cheers in advance :)

06-16-2009, 08:01 AM
Well a couple of things:

1. From an effective health/ avoidance standpoint: Yes you're stats are pretty low. Thats really the core of it. You shouldn't be doing the new boss in VoA yet imo since you're not even geared by heroics/naxxx standards.
2. Your gemming: There is no reason for you to be gemming for strength. Try and swap around your gems to pick up either more stam or some dodge for avoidance.
3. Your Spec: For avoidance its fine, but I can see you having severe threat issues in all honesty. You're a frost tank but you don't spec into Killing Machine or Bladed Armor? Killing machine is one of the top frost threat talents and point for point, bladed armor is probably the best threat talent for any tanking spec outside of the 1 talent point offensive skills towards the bottom of the trees (HS, HB, SS).

The reason I bring up number 3 is because if you have aggro issues, then in heroics a healer's job becomes MUCH MUCH harder if they have to heal a dps that just pulled aggro instead of topping you off.

What is your rotation? Are you keeping FF on all the mobs? Are you keeping BB up at all times? Hopefully an obviously dumb question but are you keeping your front to the mobs (as opposed to exposing your back) at all times? How do you use your CD's? Do you use them as "Oh crap" buttons or do you incorporate them into your rotation to get maximum uptime?

06-16-2009, 09:03 AM
1. I thought 29k was very reasonable for Heroics/Naxx, I've healed tanks with 25k upwards..
2. That's fair enough, forgot about those gems, free from a guildy..
3. So far I'm having none at all, and have never lost an add/boss through threat issues (although I know this will obviously be different when tanking harder bosses with better groups). My frost spec is just one I picked up from wowwiki yesterday when I went for a change, as choosing the right ones isn't exactly my forte. I'm thinking of going back to unholy; bad idea?

My usual rotation is:
DnD > IT > PS > Pest > Whatever is available from then on, concentrating on Death Strike to aid the healer. I refresh diseases just before their timer elapses.

As for CDs, I currently pop one if available just as I pull, though UA ruins my pull rotation by using a frost rune.. Not been frost for a lengthy boss fight yet, but again I'd just use as soon as available.

06-16-2009, 09:16 AM
I'll have to disagree with Voodan about your stats because I think your stats are very good for Naxx10 and Heroics. Emalon does hit like a beast so I could understand if you appear to be getting beat up there.

I agree that taking killing machine and bladed armor is also wise. But for now, if your having no threat issues then that's not your real problem.

The only way I see you feeling squishy is if you were getting hit from the side or from behind. As Voodan did mention, everything needs to be in front of you. Maybe if you weren't in frost presence you might also feel that way.

IMO, everything seems on track.

06-16-2009, 09:17 AM
29K is very reasonable for heroics/naxx, he was talking about the new VoA boss, but you're definitely geared enough for heroics and naxx10. Keep aiming to improve your avoidance, and your armor will get better.

I know you didn't ask for help with your rotation, but I really gotta say with a frost spec, you really shouldn't be focusing on DS. You have none of the buffs to death strike, and you're wasting all the buffs you're getting to obliterate, so use Oblit instead as your main srike.

06-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Just a note that I also use Death Strike if I'm way ahead on aggro. 10% health healed once or twice every rotation. Who wouldn't?

06-16-2009, 09:28 AM
Ah, I thought Emalon would be inline with the other 10 man raid bosses? I guess that's why you get Emblems of Valor instead then :)

Well I've literally only done 3-4 heroics in frost and to be honest don't even have Oblit on my hotbar.. not a fan of the losing diseases part.. I'll give it a whirl though.

06-16-2009, 09:35 AM
You wont lose diseases if you are specced for Annihilation - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51473) (which you are). Death Strike hits like a wet noodle if you're frost, I guess it's not too bad if you have a huge lead on threat andyou want to help out your healers, but under normal situations Oblit should be your primary strike for frost spec tanking.

06-16-2009, 11:07 AM

At first i want to say that both your health and armor are fine. I tanked Emalon 25 with about the same stats. True, he hits you for about 9-11k and another 11k from the AoE attack (if you dont use Anti-magic shell). But the 4 adds hit harder though. Emalon drops emblems of Valor because he's harder then the 10 man raid bosses

To improve your gear I'd say you lose the 5 overcapped defence. Your Signet of the dark Brotherhood you could replace with the dodge trinket you can buy for emblems of herois,. Upgrade your gloves/chest too with the T7 ones, which you can also buy for emlems of heroism, costing 60 for the gloves and 80 for the chest. They are quite easy to acquire if you can't get them through raiding.

Your cloack could use an upgrade too, cuz block rating is useless to DK's. If you can't afford the Durable Nerubhide cloak (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=43565)), you can try to get the Nexus HC cloack which drops of Commander Kolurg (or Commander Stoutbeard if you are horde)

06-16-2009, 11:06 PM
Might not be the issue, but we DK's are terrible at tanking large trash mobs due to not having a shield to soak up the many hits. Whenever you pull a trash mob make sure you use a cooldown to deal with the extra damage.

06-17-2009, 02:51 AM
What vine said... Use IBF as soon as possible at the beginning of trash pull. Until it wears off, one or two mobs should be dead.

29k hp and 24k armor are more than ok for Naxx10, I started tanking Naxx with 23k hp and before Frost Presence buff. I was tanking all heroics before Naxx (in December 08), I was sitting at 20-22k hp then. I don't remember any big problems, but I was Unholy tank and Bone Shield was before nerfs.

06-17-2009, 09:07 AM
Your cloack could use an upgrade too, cuz block rating is useless to DK's. If you can't afford the Durable Nerubhide cloak (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=43565)), you can try to get the Nexus HC cloack which drops of Commander Kolurg (or Commander Stoutbeard if you are horde)

Or get the wyrmrest rep cloak, which I used until I got a Naxx cloak.

06-17-2009, 10:22 AM
As a few people have pointed out, rotation is a bit off. More specifically, you respecced but didn't change your rotation habits. Thats a good AoE unholy rotation, but abysmal for frost. There are plenty of guides elsewhere for a good single target rotation and an AoE Frost rotation (hint: HB is in there, and PS is not).

As for taking large hits, I think you are looking at warriors/paladins as a model, but they are a bit different than DKs/Bears. Warriors and Paladins have a smoother damage profile due to that big Dinner Platter they keep smacking mobs with. DKs and Bears just eat the spike damage and move on, which is why you have 29k health instead of 23-25k for a similarly geared shield wielder. You lack bear blubber, so you need to make sure you are using your CDs as often as possible, including on-use trinkets. I prefer passives, as I find DK/Warrior tanking is fidgety as is in a priority system.

You need a new trinket to replace the DK starter trinket. STAT! Badge trinket first, I say.

Based on armory, you are stam stacking, which is not a sin, but it comes at the cost of less avoidance. You can swap out some str/stam for dodge/stam, but str is a minor avoidance via Str-> Parry. You could get more pure avoidance, but then you end up getting turned down for raid spots due to your low health (which is better, since being kicked after a wipe is much worse, people are now angry at your lack of gear).

At the end of the day, theres nothing catastrophically wrong with your gear. Patience young Padawan, grind out more heroics and/or nax 10, and tighten up your frost tank skills, that's what I think your root cause.

06-17-2009, 10:49 AM
Your cloack could use an upgrade too, cuz block rating is useless to DK's. If you can't afford the Durable Nerubhide cloak (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=43565)), you can try to get the Nexus HC cloack which drops of Commander Kolurg (or Commander Stoutbeard if you are horde)

Or get the wyrmrest rep cloak, which I used until I got a Naxx cloak.

Also, change out your str/sta gems for exp/sta for enhanced threat and enchant your gloves with..armsman?(2% threat and 10 pr).

couldn't edit due to new post

06-24-2009, 03:44 AM
As to not make another thread, I'll post an update in here..

I've now got a few more bits of gear and switched back to Unholy as I just wasn't getting on with Frost. My avoidance is now around 39%, I'm keeping up my cooldowns to reduce my damage, and it's all going well. Now I need to crack on with my threat; which brings me onto rune strike.

Until reading these forums I forgot I had that spell, infact, I thought it was frost only or something and didn't know I had it available so I've been missing out on alot of threat. How should I incorporate this into my rotation? Obviously I need my runic power to keep holy blight up, and I'm normally getting rid of excess with Death Coil.. should this be changed to rune strike?

The main reason I bring this up is that yesterday on Naxx10 my threat was overtaken by the OT on Patch.. I don't have problems holding it over the rest of the group usually, but the OT was coming very close.. I think my threat is around 4k tps, but sometimes goes as low as 2k.. What can I do to help?

Thanks again, in advance. :)

06-24-2009, 04:14 AM
Yes if you are not using Rune Strike on bosses you threat would suffer. Also who was the OT warrior/paladin/druid? Tough to keep aggro against paladin keep in mind, you will have to go that extra mile for that. Also on patch the person who has better gear should be OT.

Most of the threat abilities in UH tree are AOE types, for single target fights you have to mash Rune Strike as if no tomorrow.

Also your hit and expertise (specially expertise) is really low which also might be reason for your threat being, I say get fast rep grind for wyrmrest rep, the cloak and chest from them are amazing good for tanks, or get enough badges to get the tier chest, whichever you can do faster.

EDIT: I have only played a blood tank and most of the Unholy abilities are spells, so not sure if expertise is as valuable for you as blood. Below is the link to my build, try it you might like it, you get more stam and uber self healing.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0055021503301313201023131000005000000000000000 0000000000035231300120010000000000000000)

06-24-2009, 09:21 AM
Rune Strike should be your first priority for using runic power, so it's easier for your rotation if you just macro rune strike into all your abilities, that way you will be spamming rune strike without any effort while you use your other abilities. Here's an example:

#show Obliterate
/cast !Rune Strike
/cast Obliterate

Another alternative, if you feel you want more control over when you're using RS, is binding your mouse wheel to RS and spinning the heck out of it while you want to spam it. This is useful if you want to makae sure for other stuff (interrupting, unholy blight, etc) but when tanking bosses you really want to use RS as your first priority most of the time, so macros are really effective.

06-24-2009, 02:25 PM
Well I've done a Naxx10 tonight and got a new helm + chest so my avoidance is now almost 41% unbuffed while still keeping my 29.5k health :)

The OT was a Warrior btw :)

Ok, the mouse wheel one sounds good. I'll give it a crack for my next heroic and see how I get on. Thanks again guys.

06-24-2009, 03:45 PM
The problem with a straight bind to mouse wheel or any button, is that with Rune Strike you can turn off the attack by pressing it again before you use it. The macro uses the non-toggle mode which is provided by the the exclamation mark before the spell name. The macro only turns it on, and never off.

06-24-2009, 08:02 PM
I agree w/ keeprock, but there's a way to work around that problem. Create a pure RS macro:

/use !Rune Strike
Get the Spellbinder addon (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/spell-binder.aspx), which lets you bind anything, even macros, to anything, even mousewheels, and bind it where you want it.

Also, you might not want to give up on Frost just yet, since in patch 3.2 Unholy Blight will be changed to a non-AoE spell (more like combination of single-target Death Coil + DoT). Frost will then probably be the preferred AoE tank tree, with better snap AoE threat (DnD + BB + HB).

Going back to your Frost rotation, as Insahnity pointed out, you're using an UH rotation for Frost. Try this instead:

HB (glyphed, of course (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45806)) -> DnD -> BB -> (all runes used) -> FS spam till runes recover -> repeat minus DnD, substituting Oblit for HB and BS for BB when more single-target threat is needed.

That rotation puts Frost Fever on all your targets first (so Tundra Stalker (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50130) and Glacier Rot (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49791) buffs all subsequent dmg), lays down all your AoE, and uses up your blood runes to proc Blade Barrier all in the first 3 GCDs.

Forget Plague Strike and Pestilence. The only Frost ability that Blood Fever buffs is Oblit, by about 11.5% iirc, which Glyph of Oblit (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43547) compensates for. The marginal DoT dmg + that Oblit buff is not worth the runes or the GCDs of using PS and Pest every few seconds throughout the fight, at least not as Frost.

Using that strat as Frost I only ever have problems with aggro when I group with significantly better-geared dps. My Frost tank spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Maiev&cn=Nightfreeze), for reference.

06-30-2009, 02:20 PM
Again, apologies for the bump.

I macro'd my abilities with !Rune Strike as mentioned above... the only problem I'm now having is I can't see when they are ready to cast as macros are constantly lit up. Any way around this?

06-30-2009, 06:03 PM
It sounds like your missing the first line of the macro:

#showtooltip <spell name>

For Example:
#showtooltip Plague Strike

Each tooltip showing the name of the spell your casting at the end of the macro.
/cast !Rune Strike
/cast Plague Strike

06-30-2009, 10:01 PM
Or, a bit more complex:

#showtooltip [mod:shift] Blood Boil;[mod:alt] Blood Strike;Obliterate
/use Blood Fury
/use !Rune Strike
/use [mod:shift] Blood Boil;[mod:alt] Blood Strike;Obliterate

So this makes sure both Blood Fury and Rune Strike are cast when they are up, and I just turn off error messages in the Interface control panel so I don't constantly get errors that these abilities are not ready. It also ensures that the main abilities are what are shown in the tooltip, and change when you hold down mod buttons.