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View Full Version : Tankadin Survivability - EH vs Avoidance?



kfealz
06-16-2009, 07:15 AM
This is me for your reference:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stonemaul&n=Hoyb)

So I've been looking at a lot of the supremely geared pally tanks, and it seems like everyone is stacking stam. Most are still using Essence of Gossamer (I just stopped using it this week, but I plan to switch it back in sometimes), and have only stam gems, except where other colors are needed to match set bonuses. This seems a little strange to me so I wanted to get some clarity.

Overall I am trying to decide what trinkets to use on Ulduar10/25 boss encounters. It would seem to me that stacking avoidance would make more sense for more physical fights, like Kologarn, XT, Iron Council, etc. and stacking stam would be ideal for more non-physical damage fights - like probably Razorscale and Ignis because of the fire damage.

I have the following trinkets available atm (Can't link to wowhead because it's down, so thottbot will have to do):

Defender's Code - Defender's Code - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i40257)
Furnace Stone - Furnace Stone - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i45313)
Essence of Gossamer - Essence of Gossamer - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i37220)
Repelling Charge - Repelling Charge - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i39292)

With my current gems and enchants, but without the Repelling Charge, I'm at 524 defense. To get to 540, I would have to get defense enchants for chest, shield, and cloak. I would also need to get 22 additional defense from gems (16 + 8). This would cause the following change in my stats:
-8% to all stats (chest)
-225 armor (cloak)
-40 block value (shield)
-8 parry rating (gem)
-24 stam (gem) or minus
-3025 health for 15 seconds on use (every 3 minutes) from trinket

In return, for using Defender's Code, I would get:
+850 armor
+455 dodge for 20 seconds on use (every 2 minutes)

or
+111 Stam from Essence of Gossamer for non-physical damage fights.

Overall, it seems like 8 parry rating and 24 stam aren't going to help me at all in really any fight, since I tend to get hit for 10k+. So I guess it really comes down to if it is worthwhile to replace my enchants for the Defender's Code plus the fact that I would no longer rely on the repelling charge.

So in the end, I guess I have 2 questions:
1. Is this gear swap worthwhile for high physical damage fights?
2. Am I on the right line of thinking about stam vs armor, block, dodge and parry for physical damage and non-physical damage fights? It just seems silly to me to gem for stam and use a stam trinket when you could be avoiding the damage altogether. Though I do think stam is probably more important for non-physical damage fights.

Widdox
06-16-2009, 07:27 AM
I like +22 defense to chest over +8 to stats. (its not a percent but just 8 points to each stat)

Armor to cloak is nice, but if you need the defense then I would go that route.

Parry gems are never worth it. Use a purple (dodge/stam) gem. I match my slots. Blue = stam, Yellow = (defense/stam or hit/stam), Red (dodge/stam) (expertise is very low priority for paladins)

Block Value again is not worth it imho as a shield enchant. Go with Defense here.

As far as the trinkets, I still use the defenders code from time to time, but the Essence of Gossamer is in my main set for the stamina.

I try to pay particular attention to ItemPoints and try to get the best bang for my buck when enchanting / gemming. Currently since only blue gems are available it is almost always worth it to go for the gem slot bonus. If we get to epic gems that might change.

I ran REAL low on defense at Naxx gear levels. I had to put defense everywhere. Now that I'm in Ulduar that is starting to change.

----------------

I tend to gear for avoidance, and then enchant/gem for EH. (IE wear gear with dodge/defense, then gem it with stam) Yes it is better to avoid a hit and you should have as much avoidance as possible, but you will get hit and having that extra health helps alot!

kfealz
06-16-2009, 07:37 AM
Thanks for the quick reply.. I'm just sitting here refreshing the page lol

I think I'm going to go with the enchants you recommended. Seems like a better decision in the long run to not have to worry about staying defense capped (I'm only at 541 right now even with Repelling Charge).

I know what you're saying about parry not being worthwhile - not even sure what I put that there in the first place.

Few follow-up questions:
1. You gem for hit? I thought hit and expertise weren't really important for us. I'm only at 89 hit rating and 67 expertise (with no gems/enchants for it), and I don't remember the last time I missed. Though I could just not be seeing it, but threat has never been my problem. I just thought this stat wasn't so valuable to us.
2. You think the stam for the Essence of Gossamer is better than 850 armor plus the dodge on use on physical damage fights? It seems like since the hits are so big in Ulduar, the overall damage reduction and avoidance (on use) would be more worthwhile than 1100 health - though I could see both sides of it. Basically what I am proposing is using the Essence of Gossamer on fights with heavy non-physical damage and the Defender's Code on trash and physical damage fights. I'm sure this is heavily up to the player, but what do you think?

BuliwynT
06-16-2009, 07:41 AM
I think the idea behind EH is that you always have more health than that other tank. For example, using some made up numbers..

The stam-stacking tank has 42k health raid buffed. He takes two 20k hits and still has 2k health left for a big heal to land. The avoidance tank has 5% more avoidance and 39k health. He takes two 20k hits and dies outright. The avoidance tank had a 5% chance to live instead of a 100% chance like the former tank.

I s'pose that's the biggest advantage to having more health.. along with being superior in magic-damage fights as ya mentioned. It's that you -always- have 2.5/3k more health.

Some will say that the EH tank is a mana sponge, but... overhealing is gonna happen and I think it's easier to heal consistant damage. I mean, you can say a dodge will save you when 3 people get gripped by Kologarn and the healers attention are divided... but, that's probably when you use a cooldown anyway (or should be).

I would use gossamer and repelling charge for just about everything.. and sub defender's code in for repelling charge if you end up not needing the defense. The health and armour compliment each other.

kfealz
06-16-2009, 07:41 AM
BTW, if Valor Medal of the First War - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i40683) was better than the Defender's Code, I could pick it up...

Widdox
06-16-2009, 07:45 AM
All of our abilities can be affected by +hit, only HotR and White damage from expertise.

According to the numbers for threat, Strength > Hit > BlockVal > AP > Expertise
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=414575#p414575)

So hit is the 2nd best threat stat. I don't normally gem for Hit because I generally need the defense. But defense is hit hard by diminishing returns and if you get too high defense you might as well swap over to Hit in those yellow slots.

kfealz
06-16-2009, 07:45 AM
I think the idea behind EH is that you always have more health than that other tank. For example, using some made up numbers..

The stam-stacking tank has 42k health raid buffed. He takes two 20k hits and still has 2k health left for a big heal to land. The avoidance tank has 5% more avoidance and 39k health. He takes two 20k hits and dies outright. The avoidance tank had a 5% chance to live instead of a 100% chance like the former tank.


That's an interesting and valid point. It's a little annoying thinking about it that my EH has gone down about 2k going from t7.5 -> t8 (plus some other ulduar gear). Maybe I need to consider swapping gear out more often....

Widdox
06-16-2009, 07:46 AM
BTW, if Valor Medal of the First War - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i40683) was better than the Defender's Code, I could pick it up...

No I need to remove mine from the set. The defenders code is prob better, since once you get high dodge rating the dimishing returns are high.

kfealz
06-16-2009, 07:50 AM
According to the numbers for threat, Strength > Hit > BlockVal > AP > Expertise
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=414575#p414575)

So hit is the 2nd best threat stat. I don't normally gem for Hit because I generally need the defense. But defense is hit hard by diminishing returns and if you get too high defense you might as well swap over to Hit in those yellow slots.

Very interesting.. I really didn't expect that. I would have put it below block value since shield of righteousness damage scales with BV, but I guess if you miss, it doesn't matter how much potential damage you have anyway..

Thanks for the quick responses.. this has enlightened me in many ways..

PhilS
06-16-2009, 07:50 AM
Your choices aren't very clever.

First of all you say your threat is ok, but you socketed strength. Why?
-> If you don't need threat don't socket for strength.

You enchanted your breast with 8 stats and socketed defense. Why?
-> If you enchanted your breast with 22 defense you could have socketed 2x 24 stam gems.

-> Change your meta gem if you wan't to MT bosses in Ulduar.

-> Enchant your shield with defense for maintanking bosses. Get a second shield for threat purposes with 40 BV.

-> After that get rid of Repelling Charge in your MT set and equip EoG. If you swapped some gear and enchant choices you now should have nearly 30k HP. That seems more reasonable for the first half of Ulduar.

Klimpen
06-16-2009, 07:57 AM
Honestly, you need to start enchanting to defence.

Meta: Sta/Armour
Red slots: Agi/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta. [note: you need 1 of these for your Meta]
Yellow slots: Def/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta.
Blue slots: Sta.

Drop as much BR/BV gear as possible [ring/chest/cape/helm] for equivalents which focus on EH/Avoidance. BR/BV provides a much lower return.

You've got some very solid gear, you just need to shuffle things around a fair bit.

kfealz
06-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Your choices aren't very clever.

First of all you say your threat is ok, but you socketed strength. Why?
-> If you don't need threat don't socket for strength.

You enchanted your breast with 8 stats and socketed defense. Why?
-> If you enchanted your breast with 22 defense you could have socketed 2x 24 stam gems.

-> Change your meta gem if you wan't to MT bosses in Ulduar.

-> Enchant your shield with defense for maintanking bosses. Get a second shield for threat purposes with 40 BV.

-> After that get rid of Repelling Charge in your MT set and equip EoG. If you swapped some gear and enchant choices you now should have nearly 30k HP. That seems more reasonable for the first half of Ulduar.

Just a note.. I've already tanked the first 10 bosses of Ulduar10 and Razorscale25 with no problem, but my guild's focus is 10 atm.

I socket strength because it is my understanding that it is a very useful stat since it increases AP and block.

Again, I thought that +8 would be valuable, but I plan to switch to +defense after the discussion in this thread, but I'm still going to need 22 extra defense from gems if I get rid of the repelling charge anyway, so I won't get 2x24 stam.

What meta would you recommend? If I drop the current one, that's another 21 defense rating I need to get from gems.

I have Hero's Surrender - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i40266) and Barricade of Eternity - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i40475) sitting in my bank.. recommend one?

kfealz
06-16-2009, 08:05 AM
Honestly, you need to start enchanting to defence.

Meta: Sta/Armour
Red slots: Agi/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta. [note: you need 1 of these for your Meta]
Yellow slots: Def/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta.
Blue slots: Sta.

Drop as much BR/BV gear as possible [ring/chest/cape/helm] for equivalents which focus on EH/Avoidance. BR/BV provides a much lower return.

You've got some very solid gear, you just need to shuffle things around a fair bit.

I'm kind of stunned. I've been valuing BV too much it seems. When I see something has +100 BV over my current gear, I got nuts for it.. seemed like a good idea for single target threat and damage mitigation.. maybe I shouldn't be...

kfealz
06-16-2009, 08:07 AM
Red slots: Agi/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta. [note: you need 1 of these for your Meta]


Agi > Str?

uglybbtoo
06-16-2009, 08:11 AM
Honestly, you need to start enchanting to defence.

Meta: Sta/Armour
Red slots: Agi/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta. [note: you need 1 of these for your Meta]
Yellow slots: Def/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta.
Blue slots: Sta.

Drop as much BR/BV gear as possible [ring/chest/cape/helm] for equivalents which focus on EH/Avoidance. BR/BV provides a much lower return.

You've got some very solid gear, you just need to shuffle things around a fair bit.


Agreed with everything except red I have been doing
Red slots: Dodge/Sta if the socket bonus is Sta; else Sta.

Just checking whats the advantage of agi over dodge?

Have so few red sockets it barely matters but curious.

Contrite
06-16-2009, 08:15 AM
I hope this somewhat answers your question.

For most of the bosses in Ulduar that your tankadin is actually tanking, theres a number of reasons I go for stam over stacking avoidance. 1) I've played a healer for years, and if you gave me the choice between (A) tank with high avoidance and medium health or (B) medium avoidance and high health, I almost always preferred the higher health. The reason is that tank B takes alot more predictable health losses. It is easier to regulate healing that tank and the raid when that tank is taking consistant damage.

I am by no means a guru of all things tankadin. However, if I had to guess, it seems you are gearing out to be a trash tank for your guild and not a tank for the bosses. Not sure if this is your goal, but if your going to tank bosses,would suggest the following:

1) Replace your armor enchant on your cloak and get defense. In fact, get defense to shield and chest with your current defense.
2) replace your str gems for dodge/stam (if your below 102.4)- theres also some recomendations for agility instead of the dodge for extra armor, etc.
3) replace your meta for the 32 stam 2% armor meta.
4) add in a stamina trinket.

Widdox
06-16-2009, 08:18 AM
I prefer dodge, but I can see people argue for agil although I don't think its worth it.

39.348 Dodge rating = 1% dodge
52.04 Agility = 1% dodge
1 Agility = 2 armor

So you get less dodge and only a minor amount of armor to show for it.

Contrite
06-16-2009, 08:22 AM
there are a couple of threads discussing the benefits of agility (dodge/crit/armor) on the maintankadin forum as well.

Widdox
06-16-2009, 08:22 AM
In the Red Gem slot you have 2 options.

Threat = Str / Stam
Survivability = Dodge / Stam (some say Agil / Stam, but I aruge that)

Klimpen
06-16-2009, 08:22 AM
Agi also provdes crit, which while not especially important, does increase threat.

Agi is a hybrid stat. It provides EH, Avoidance and Threat all in one neat little package.

Widdox
06-16-2009, 08:23 AM
there are a couple of threads discussing the benefits of agility (dodge/crit/armor) on the maintankadin forum as well.

Yes thats why I don't say its wrong. Its a judgement call.

kfealz
06-16-2009, 09:13 AM
Thanks a ton for the advice everyone. I just worked out my new gemming and enchanting on paper. I'm not going to end up with as much stam as you recommended for now until I get some more Uld gear with more defense. In case you're curious or care, here is what I am doing:

Cloak, chest, and shield enchant for defense.
Orange gem on my chest will be replaced with +16 defense
Green gem on shoulders will be replaced with +16 defense
Prismatic on my belt will be replaced with +16 defense
Red gem on my legs will be replaced by an orange with +8 defense (not sure which yet)
Meta in my helm will be replaced with Austere Earthsiege Diamond - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i41380)
Repelling charge will be replaced with EoG for most fights

I'm pretty sure that will put me at 540 or 541 defense, so unfortunately I need all the +16 defense gems. Hopefully soon I'll be able to replace them and grab some more stam. This thread totally changed the way I'm going to be gearing up, so thank you all for your comments. :)

kfealz
06-16-2009, 09:26 AM
Damn, confused again..

Should I Gear, Gem or Enchant for Defense? - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/05/11/should-i-gear-gem-or-enchant-for-defense/) has me thinking I should just use the repelling charge > EoG and socket for stam instead of defense.. at least until my defense gets higher so I dont need 4 +16 defense gems and the enchants... any thoughts?

kfealz
06-16-2009, 09:35 AM
If I keep the Repelling Charge and just replace all my non-blue gems with +24 Stam gems + the meta in my helm, i'd get 176 stam over what I have right now. This actually seems far superior to the EoG. I think I'm going to do that for now until I get more defense, then maybe I'll drop the repelling charge.

Thanks again for all the help!

Edit: 154 stam actually.. going to need to keep one red gem for the meta to work.

PhilS
06-17-2009, 12:22 AM
Repelling Charge has 84 Defense, thats 5 1/4 +16 defense gems.
5 1/4 +24 stamina gems = 126 stamina.
+15 sta over EoG, so you're right in replacing your defense gems with stamina gems and keeping repelling charge.


Just a note.. I've already tanked the first 10 bosses of Ulduar10 and Razorscale25 with no problem, but my guild's focus is 10 atm.Even in 10 man you need a good set with as many hp as possible if you want to tank Hard Modes or Vezax.

sophiapernia
06-17-2009, 04:55 AM
Hi,

I am using essence of goss.. and the monarch crab with +41 sta gems.
I have 33,1k hp unbuffed.

In itemrack (and now the wow interface) I have 3 levels of hp <-> avoidance levels set up. 33k, 31,5k, 30k , with 24, 25, 27% dodge (and more other avoidance stats varying). swtichgin out trinkets such as defenders code, furnace stone, etc.. I am sooo looking forward to getting teh heroic ignis trinket with 162 sta and dodge on use, so I dont have to switch gear around that much.. I can have lots of sta AND 2 dodge "oh no" buttons. It hasnt dropped yet, though. And my guildies hate when I make them go for ignis.

I have the parry / parry on use trinket, valor trinket, ignis normal mode trinket (furnace stone) and defenders code to switch around as I see fit for the situation.

I also got my frost set for hodir, heal pve set and heal pvp set with me for those situations - no wonder Im always out of bag space.

sophiapernia
06-17-2009, 05:01 AM
People were discussing enchants/gems optimization...

Could they inspect me, how can I improve?

Maybe teh meta gem +37 sta, and then get the defence on chest insetad of 275 hp. 37 sta + buffs would be 400-something hp.

Contrite
06-17-2009, 08:21 AM
Couple of odd gem choices in your gear Sophiapernia.
1) You have a Str/stam gem in your glove and a prismatic in the blue slot in your JC trinket. Switch those and you gain 12 stam for 8 str. (I know this will change in 3.2, but still.
2) Meta should be the Austere Earthsiege Diamond (http://thottbot.com/i41380)(32 stam). Maybe you could go with a different ring other then the signet of winter until you have the stats to pull it off.
3) replace the your chest with the emblem 8.5 asap, and (I know this sounds odd) go back to your old Naxx shoulders (t8 is kinda sucky imo) I wouldnt mess with the stamina enchant to your chest, but play around with your gear until you reach the defense floor more optimally. (ring especially) Will be less of a problem as gear improves. In reaching floor, for example, you could put the prismatic in your shoulders and put the def/stam gem in your chest.

Insahnity
06-17-2009, 11:43 AM
First off, when compared to warriors and frost tank DKs, the other tank gains more benefit from stam for various reasons. Stam for paladins also slightly boost threat (the inverse of str, which primarily boost threat and slightly increases survivability) due to stam->30% SP.
I personally view repelling charge as a gap-filler for defense, although the post by PhilS is an interesting view. It may have to do with the item budget of a blue trinket vs an epic, but the reverse happens with Heart of Iron - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45158) vs repelling charge, (heart of iron is equivalent to 6 3/4 +24 stam gems vs 5 1/4 +16 def gems of repelling charge).

As for +hit, paladins prioritize it over expertise because we work off more spell hit for various abilities than others, just like unholy tanks. This is despite the fact that Blizzard ported us over on WOTLK release from SP stacking tanks to Str based tanks, resulting in many of our abilities being ported to melee hit based, but there are a few holdouts (notably consecrate).

sophiapernia
06-18-2009, 01:08 AM
Couple of odd gem choices in your gear Sophiapernia.
1) You have a Str/stam gem in your glove and a prismatic in the blue slot in your JC trinket. Switch those and you gain 12 stam for 8 str. (I know this will change in 3.2, but still.
2) Meta should be the Austere Earthsiege Diamond (http://thottbot.com/i41380)(32 stam). Maybe you could go with a different ring other then the signet of winter until you have the stats to pull it off.
3) replace the your chest with the emblem 8.5 asap, and (I know this sounds odd) go back to your old Naxx shoulders (t8 is kinda sucky imo) I wouldnt mess with the stamina enchant to your chest, but play around with your gear until you reach the defense floor more optimally. (ring especially) Will be less of a problem as gear improves. In reaching floor, for example, you could put the prismatic in your shoulders and put the def/stam gem in your chest.

Signet of winter increased my EH compared to my older def rings.
I did a switcheroo meta gem 32sta/-2% sell dmg. and 22 def on chest and that gained me 500 EH. I have 31 eoC and saving up for the 8.5 chest.

I used the monarch crab for a looong time and I put the prismatic gems into that one because I wouldnt be changing that trinket fo ra long time, while I have changed all my other gear... and dragon eyes were quite expensive, so I didnt want to regem solid dragon eyes every time I got new gear. Ofc now it wont be so bad.. great idea! then I lose less HP when I switch to furnace stone and the parry trinket.

sophiapernia
06-18-2009, 11:33 PM
wouldnt mess with the stamina enchant to your chest, but play around with your gear until you reach the defense floor more optimally. (ring especially) Will be less of a problem as gear improves. In reaching floor, for example, you could put the prismatic in your shoulders and put the def/stam gem in your chest.


dude, I gained 200 more hp by using 24 sta and a hit/sta gem in my monarch crab and then using the 41 sta gems in my red sockets in place of str/sta :)
so now Im on 33,4k hp