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Tarigar
06-15-2009, 05:34 PM
So I decided to start a thread comparing these two enchants.

Blood Draining is referred to as the smart heal.

Blade Warding is considered a waste.

I currently have blade warding as it was the newest enchant on the server and I could never do mongoose again.

I have had success with it given the factors for what the enchant does.

The enchant for me has about a 25% proc rate on adding the bladeward buff to me. Now this is not saying it causes a parry just receiving the buff.

Our of those I range anywhere from 20%(9 out of 44 parries) proc rate with the buff applied to having only 1 of the buffs proc'ing.

I average at least two procs a fight. Best I have had is nine.

On average it will increase my parries over the my parry that is listed.

There is a lot of chances that it could be a hot streak in avoidance but I have seen an overall improvement in my parries on bosses.

So with the given 2% it may proc in a fight. How does it compare with the percentage of Blood Draining proc'ing and how often are you falling below 35% health?

Lizana
06-15-2009, 06:00 PM
You realy want to bring this up again. The fight where he has 9 procs was a fight with AOE adds that were attacking him. On single target boss fights his highest proc amount was 2 times. And of those 2 parries it caused over 36k in overhealing. Where as the worst possible fight i can think of for blood draining that i have a current log for is Freya, if you are just MTing freya while the raid kills the adds. Durring the freya fight, with no elders up i had blood reserve heal me 4 times in that one fight.

Heres a log of hard mode x002 10 man, Blood reserve healed me 14 times durring that fight.

Healed me 5 times on Razorscale.

Healed me 8 times on ignis.

Healed me 5 times on hodir

Healed me 5 times on thorim.

And bladeward does not have a 25% proc rate. Useing your own log from when you were MTing x002 on 25 man, you did a total of 1896 attacks that could proc Blade ward. You had 9 procs of it. .47% proc rate durring that fight. Yes thats right less than half a % proc rate for a fight where i would rather have an avoid rather than a heal

Even your fight where you had 9 parries when you had the boss up. Your actual proc rate just for having the buff up was 4% on melee attack not 25% as you claim.

Mookey
06-16-2009, 01:27 AM
Lizana summed it up. However there are at least 2 more topics covering tanking enchants. Maybe search there for more convos on it? Or we gonna make weekly topic about enchants?

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 09:22 AM
Lizana you're right it doesn't have a 25% proc rate but a 25% up time. I do agree that is a difference. No whether that up time leads to a proc is different.

Auryiaya I rarely have aoe mobs attacking me. Generally we have 4 other tanks on auryiaya tanking the cats and the little guys, with 1 being a dk and 1 being a pally. So the the likely cause to those procs would have been auryiaya herself.

The reason why I brought it up again is, I discussed the very same thing with my officers and it didn't make sense to them either. The one who heads up the healers said "if you drop below 35% that frequently to make the enchant worthwhile then we have a problem."

And in regards to the ~40k overhealing that is null and void due to the fact we want avoidance anyways. If that is an issue than everytime i dodge, parry, or get missed then I am wasting my healers mana.

Edit: In regards to proc chances you are comparing it to a different set of values. I am not comparing my number of attacks to a parry. But the number of attacks received that get parried. I am not going for this enchant for threat reasons but avoidance reasons. So 9 procs out of 44 parries is 20%. When I parried over 18% with my base parry rating being lower then 18 to start off with. So I effectively increased my avoidance.

Lizana
06-16-2009, 09:33 AM
The problem with the enchant is your hoping you will get a proc to get the buff, then once you have the buff your hoping that buff will cause a parry that would not otherwise be caused.

So your looking at a 2% to have a 3% increased chance to do something that happens 20% of the time... Compared to a 100% effective heal. If it was at 10% or even 15% that it would heal you, i would agree you should not be dropping that low on a regular basis. But 35% hp isnt that low. At 35% hp for a ulduar geared tank, that heal + hots ticking on the player most of the time would let them survive another attack.

In an ideal world you would never need an enchant like blood draining because your healers would be landing a heal for the exact amount of damage you were taking at the exact moment you took the damage. But wow isnt this magical fairy land where you never have lag and you can always stand in one place to heal. Blood draining gives your healers an extra buffer for when things go wrong and they cant just sit there and spam heals on you.

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 09:43 AM
In an ideal world you would never need an enchant like blood draining because your healers would be landing a heal for the exact amount of damage you were taking at the exact moment you took the damage. But wow isnt this magical fairy land where you never have lag and you can always stand in one place to heal. Blood draining gives your healers an extra buffer for when things go wrong and they cant just sit there and spam heals on you.

I agree with you on this as well. But when we wipe which we all do it is because we lost dps or healers from people standing in stuff. Not because I dropped below 35% health and then died.

But who knows when we start doing hardmodes maybe my perception on the discussion will change.

Lizana
06-16-2009, 09:56 AM
Just because your not wiping doesn't mean your healers would not appreciate the extra buffer... and who knows... if they had the buffer so they could help heal others they might live...

Using your logic, my car doesn't need seat belts because i am not crashing in it.

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 10:07 AM
I don't think that analogy is very fitting because the reason our dps dies is they either

A. pull aggro
B. Stand in something they shouldn't

A better analogy would be my dps shouldn't stand on the tracks when the train is coming through.

Contrite
06-16-2009, 10:14 AM
... if they had the buffer so they could help heal others they might live...


I've run through a bunch of enchants, trying them out for size on progression fights. Honestly, I think your overselling the usefullness of Blood Draining. I'm not saying Blade guard is better, but come on, lets not get melodramatic here.

Superspy23
06-16-2009, 11:23 AM
I remember back in BC at tier 6+ levels of gear the discussion about EH vs avoidance became an actual legitimate discussion in regards to survivability. Numbers were crunched to show where avoidance became a legitimate over time increase to your time to live. The premise was of course that you already had the EH to survive the hits. Where tanks are already at 60% avoidance levels an increase of 1% on paper is not just one percent, its a decrease in incoming damage of greater than 2% of what you would have otherwise. It is absolutely fair to consider how much of a reduction in damage (Blade Warding) vs life increasing proc (Blood Draining) yields over the course of the fight.

After all that's been said we need to know exactly how much overall parry chance increase Blade Warding gives averaged over the duration of the fight. That way we can actually get numbers for the actual reduction in damage.

As for the arguments about EH being superior or Avoidance being too RNG based that's not going to help. The truth is that Blade Ward really can have a significant reduction in incoming damage vs the amount healed by Blood Draining. My opinion is that Blood Draining is likely to be superior for progression because you are at a lower gear level than the content. Once EH becomes less of a big deal then Blade Warding may increase your survivability more than Blood Draining. Just need to know how much average avoidance increase it provides.

Kerg
06-16-2009, 03:49 PM
Just need to know how much average avoidance increase it provides.

Agreed. First of all, I like Blood Draining a lot, and don't plan on switching any time soon. But I still think that we need more data on the average uptime for Blade Ward before we completely throw it in the trash. I've yet to see it.

At the very least, it is probably a good enchant for an Avoidance set. Although whether it is better than Mongoose.... we still need the data.

Lizana
06-16-2009, 03:52 PM
Well from some off the cuff math in the shoutbox... Useing 20% parry baseline, 3% gained parry from the buff ( i know they are not 100% accurate numbers they were used for ease of calculation) and a 2% proc rate on a hit, you end up with a .06% chance that you will proc bladeward and that bladeward will give you a parry that you would not of had with your base parry chance.

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 03:53 PM
I will post my WWS reports from tonight. We should get 9 bosses in and I will be tanking everything but Hodir.

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 04:17 PM
Well from some off the cuff math in the shoutbox... Useing 20% parry baseline, 3% gained parry from the buff ( i know they are not 100% accurate numbers they were used for ease of calculation) and a 2% proc rate on a hit, you end up with a .06% chance that you will proc bladeward and that bladeward will give you a parry that you would not of had with your base parry chance.

I think another factor is how much parry you have. The lower amount of baseline parry will increase the effectiveness of the enchant due to each point of rating contributing more to avoidance. I would have never considered the enchant if I was at or above 20% parry.

The other consideration that has to be taken into account are what you are comparing it to.

Bladeward procs vs. Boss swings

Bladeward procs vs. Your swings

Bladeward buff uptime vs. Fight timer

All of these take into account how effective the enchant is.

For Blood Draining

Blood Draining buff uptime vs. Fight timer

Blood Draining Proc times vs. Boss swings

Blood Draining healing percentage vs. Overall healing

There also need to be consideration of how hard the boss hits in comparison to the average.

All of these factor into the usefulness of the enchant.

I know there has been #'s crunched for the %parry increase per stack at a given baseline.

Number Crunchers (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/48831-blade-warding-analysis-what-proc-makes-better.html)

So for my case having 17.12% baseline parry it may be more appealing then someone with a 20%+ baseline parry.

Alent
06-16-2009, 04:36 PM
The reason why I brought it up again is, I discussed the very same thing with my officers and it didn't make sense to them either. The one who heads up the healers said "if you drop below 35% that frequently to make the enchant worthwhile then we have a problem."

That's a rather odd statement on the part of your healing leader. There are plenty of boss attacks in ulduar that even after panic button mitigation will drop you to or below 35% from full hp.

Lizana
06-16-2009, 04:39 PM
Once again your argument is based on if this and this and this and maybe this happens i win.

Even at 17% parry your still only getting 4% parry out of the buff. 1% more parry chance will not improve .06% by a whole lot...


Bladeward procs vs. Boss swings

Bladeward procs vs. Your swings

Bladeward buff uptime vs. Fight timer

The buff uptime doesnt matter if your not parrying during that uptime. From your previous parses it is pretty obvious that it is not increasing your avoidance by any real amount. 2 Parries when you have the buff up 20+ times means for 18 of those times and possibly for even those 2 times your weapon enchant did nothing for you.

The amount it procs honestly doesnt matter unless your talking about building it to a 5 stack. And from everyone thats tested it and even from your own logs, it is very very rare to get more than a 3 stack.

And how do you figure it would improve or decrease in usefulness based on a bosses swing timer?

Same thing for the buff being up for a amount of time durring a fight. Ideally if i could make blade ward work the way i would want it to, i would want the buff to be up as little as possible because that would mean i am getting parries from it. Each time you have a blade ward drop off without a parry ( and it does quite often ) you have a wasted enchant on your weapon. You would have done your raid more good with a +1 weapon damage on it.

The simple fact that it has less significantly uptime than mongoose ( an enchant that provides regular mitigation, avoidance and threat) pretty much seals the deal when it comes to an avoidance enchant.

As a side note, even with parry DR's it would be a better enchant for some one with higher parry ratings as default because you would get the damage attack more often and less likely for the buff to fall off without a parry ( making it as useful as a spirit enchant)

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 05:22 PM
Once again your argument is based on if this and this and this and maybe this happens i win.

Even at 17% parry your still only getting 4% parry out of the buff. 1% more parry chance will not improve .06% by a whole lot...



The buff uptime doesnt matter if your not parrying during that uptime. From your previous parses it is pretty obvious that it is not increasing your avoidance by any real amount. 2 Parries when you have the buff up 20+ times means for 18 of those times and possibly for even those 2 times your weapon enchant did nothing for you.

The amount it procs honestly doesnt matter unless your talking about building it to a 5 stack. And from everyone thats tested it and even from your own logs, it is very very rare to get more than a 3 stack.

And how do you figure it would improve or decrease in usefulness based on a bosses swing timer?

Same thing for the buff being up for a amount of time durring a fight. Ideally if i could make blade ward work the way i would want it to, i would want the buff to be up as little as possible because that would mean i am getting parries from it. Each time you have a blade ward drop off without a parry ( and it does quite often ) you have a wasted enchant on your weapon. You would have done your raid more good with a +1 weapon damage on it.

The simple fact that it has less significantly uptime than mongoose ( an enchant that provides regular mitigation, avoidance and threat) pretty much seals the deal when it comes to an avoidance enchant.

As a side note, even with parry DR's it would be a better enchant for some one with higher parry ratings as default because you would get the damage attack more often and less likely for the buff to fall off without a parry ( making it as useful as a spirit enchant)

Mongoose there is no way to measure it's effectiveness. It's overall avoidance gain is like 1% if that with my given dodge.

So I ran numbers off my last report.

Ok out of swings at me there was 1329, parries 193, blade ward procs 38.

Proc-Parry=19.6%
Proc-Swing=2.8%

Auryiaya where it proc'd the most.

Swings at me 237, parries 44, blade ward procs 9.

Proc-Parry=20.4%
Proc-Swing=3.7%

XT slower boss swing timer and was Maintanking

Swings at me 122, parries 23, blade ward procs 2

Proc-Parry=8.6%
Proc-Swing=1.6%

Overall the whole raid I had Bladeward applied to me 107 times. Out of those 39 Proc'd.

So 36.4% of the bladeward buffs resulted in a proc.

Edit: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/sqechdwawylbs?a=x48000000013ba04)

Lizana
06-16-2009, 05:39 PM
Your numbers are wrong. Your real total attacks that could have proced blade ward was 3944 attacks. That is the number of attacks that hit that have the ability to proc bloodward. This is not figuring in the attacks you missed or had dodged/parried.

Kaad
06-16-2009, 05:41 PM
You don't have to justify using the one thats considered the 'bad' enchant.

if it works for you, and you like it... use it.

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 05:41 PM
Ok you are interpreting it wrong. An attack leads the buff to be applied. The chance for the proc to occur is when you parry so when someone swings at you.

For an avoidance stat to trigger you need the swing to be against you correct?

Lizana
06-16-2009, 05:45 PM
The way the enchant works... You hit the mob... you can then proc a buff, that buff then gives you an increased avoidnace.


Permanently enchants a weapon to sometimes grant Blade Warding when striking an enemy. Blade Warding increases your parry rating by 200 and inflicts 600 to 800 damage on your next parry. Lasts 10 sec.


The proc rate of the enchant is what is the problem with it, not the avoidance factor (but that doesnt help that it goes away after 1 parry)

Tarigar
06-16-2009, 05:49 PM
The way the enchant works... You hit the mob... you can then proc a buff, that buff then gives you an increased avoidnace.



The proc rate of the enchant is what is the problem with it, not the avoidance factor (but that doesnt help that it goes away after 1 parry)

I understand the enchant but it is the math you are comparing it to. Can you justify how many swings it takes for mongoose to force a dodge?

Mongoose you can measure uptime of the buff but there are no other factors to measure it's effectiveness.

Attacks shouldn't be the baseline for how often it procs especially when it makes up 10-20% of my parries. Also 1-4% in comparison to boss swings. Since with avoidance you are measuring how often you dodge their swing.

Lizana
06-16-2009, 06:07 PM
You measure mongoose's effectiveness by the uptime of the buff because it provides a consistent mitigation and threat on top of the avoidance it gives with a higher up time than bladeward. Also your assuming each one of your blade ward damage attacks was caused by the extra parry. That is wrong to do. You need to consider your base chance in there as well. The math i was showing was the fact that it is not a consistent up time or a high enough proc rate for it to be a worthwhile enchant. Burst is what kills tanks, a chance to proc a chance to avoid damage does nothing in the end because your not reducing the chance the burst will kill you.

Kerg
06-17-2009, 03:58 PM
I think another factor is how much parry you have. The lower amount of baseline parry will increase the effectiveness of the enchant due to each point of rating contributing more to avoidance. I would have never considered the enchant if I was at or above 20% parry.

There are no diminishing returns on avoidance. It's not perfectly linear like armor, but damn near. 200 Parry Rating is worth about the same no matter how much you currently have, especially if you are stacking Dodge and Defense as well. The increasing returns balance out the diminishing returns.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50733-diminishing-returns-avoidance-not-really.html

Superspy23
06-17-2009, 04:27 PM
A. What is the average numbers of stacks accumulated and put this into an average parry rating gain for the buffs uptime?

B. What is the average uptime in percent?

Take the average increase in parry rating from the average numbers of stacks and multiply it by the uptime and you'll get your overall average for parry rating increase from this enchant. AxB

The idea that it may have been parried anyway because of your normal parry percentage is like saying that all that cool parry rating on those pants of yours is worthless because it was the parry rating from your gloves that actually provided the avoided hit... Lets not follow that fallacy of thought. Player parried attacks don't matter for valuing the avoidance gain; its only valued for learning the damage increase from the damage portion of the enchant. Effectively this means that we can ignore the presence or absence of player parries in the logs and simply look at the uptime and stacks of the enchant and average that all out to know its survival increase.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 04:34 PM
The thing is you cant just look at the uptime. It is a proc enchant for the chance something else can happen. The issue with the enchant isnt the fact its providing parry, but the proc rate of it. It rarely will go above 1 stack, and average uptime depends on a lot of factors.

The chance it procs and gives you parry to parry an attack you would not of already parried is .06%... And that's assuming a 2% proc rate, something that i have not seen in most logs.

A buff that does nothing might as well not have been applied hence why the average uptime is useless.

Dhalphir
06-17-2009, 04:39 PM
Bladewarding gives trivial amounts of avoidance, Blood Draining gives trivial amounts of healing. Why waste the money on either?

Lizana
06-17-2009, 04:47 PM
Upgrading from regular to epic gems gives trivial amounts of stam.. bet you still will upgrade though...

Superspy23
06-17-2009, 05:07 PM
... and average uptime depends on a lot of factors.

No, no they don't an average is an average. Procs may depend on a lot of factors, not averages.

It is a proc that gives a specific amount of avoidance while its up. You really can know its average uptime and therefor overall value.

I see you waving that 2% proc rate around... so what. How much is the added parry rating active during the fight? Someone somewhere posted that it was up for 24% of the fight. I'll work with that since I don't have any other data. Even if its only one stack (200 rating ~= 4% parry) then thats about a 1% increase to avoidance and probably more if they have some time with more than one stack up. Thats how averages work. This 2% chance to proc somehow fails entirely to express that value.

Lastly
The chance it procs and gives you parry to parry an attack you would not of already parried is .06% What? Do you want to somehow know if those specific rating points granted by the enchant were the ones responsible for the actual parry? For that matter why not consider that those points of dodge on that neck piece were actually the ones that gave you that dodge... Thats ridiculous.

I'll just say this again "Lets not follow that fallacy of thought."

Dhalphir
06-17-2009, 05:10 PM
the stamina might make a difference.

2k heal is not the same as 2k bonus health, no matter which way you swing it.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 05:20 PM
Since you dont seam to understand how the enchant works, heres a basic outline

You hit the mob you have a chance for the proc, if it procs you get the buff. The buff is only up until you parry or it times out. Unlike mongoose where the avoidance is up for the full time that the buff is up, blade ward only provides avoidance until you parry. And you can actually have a reasonable idea what parries were caused by the buff because of damage attack that happens when you attack with the buff up.

The buff up time doesn't matter because if you dont parry when it was active it was totally wasted. Unlike mongoose ( the only other avoidance proc enchant) that provides befits even if your not dodging any attacks from the increased dodge chance. Blade ward is only of use if you are parrying attacks when the buff is up.


No, no they don't an average is an average. Procs may depend on a lot of factors, not averages.


Yes but averages over too diverse a sample size doesn't matter. On average everyone that graduates college in America is Female. You see how an average of such a large group fails to be representative of the subgroups and situations? Boss attack speed, your attack speed, your parry chance all will have a factor in the amount of time the buff is up.

And yes the person your quoting with the 25% uptime of the buff, but less than 4% usage of the buffs. Say i told you you could have $1 25% of the times you guessed the right number between 1-100. Would it make a lot of sense for you to sit there and keep guessing numbers for hours on end?

And using averages... you know the things you love so much. You can look at a player with % chance to do something, and you can figure out if you increase that % chance by a value what is the average % increase you will get out of it. Thats math... thats the correct way to use averages.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 05:21 PM
the stamina might make a difference.

2k heal is not the same as 2k bonus health, no matter which way you swing it.

its a 2k heal when you need it the most... and is 99.99% of the time never going to be overhealing... I dont see how that can be seen as a bad thing

Tarigar
06-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Since you dont seam to understand how the enchant works, heres a basic outline

You hit the mob you have a chance for the proc, if it procs you get the buff. The buff is only up until you parry or it times out. Unlike mongoose where the avoidance is up for the full time that the buff is up, blade ward only provides avoidance until you parry. And you can actually have a reasonable idea what parries were caused by the buff because of damage attack that happens when you attack with the buff up.

The buff up time doesn't matter because if you dont parry when it was active it was totally wasted. Unlike mongoose ( the only other avoidance proc enchant) that provides befits even if your not dodging any attacks from the increased dodge chance. Blade ward is only of use if you are parrying attacks when the buff is up.



Yes but averages over too diverse a sample size doesn't matter. On average everyone that graduates college in America is Female. You see how an average of such a large group fails to be representative of the subgroups and situations? Boss attack speed, your attack speed, your parry chance all will have a factor in the amount of time the buff is up.

And yes the person your quoting with the 25% uptime of the buff, but less than 4% usage of the buffs. Say i told you you could have $1 25% of the times you guessed the right number between 1-100. Would it make a lot of sense for you to sit there and keep guessing numbers for hours on end?

And using averages... you know the things you love so much. You can look at a player with % chance to do something, and you can figure out if you increase that % chance by a value what is the average % increase you will get out of it. Thats math... thats the correct way to use averages.

See there is one thing that still has been bugging me about this thinking. So let's use This Fight (http://wowwebstats.com/sqechdwawylbs?a=x48000000013ba04&s=215808-263014).
Stats:
401 Player attacks
9 Bladeward Buffs
2 Bladeward Hits
122 Boss Attacks

.4% of the player attacks resulted in a Bladeward hit.
2.2% of the player attacks resulted in a Bladeward buff
22% of the Bladeward buffs resulted in a Bladeward hit

So lets say that 10% of my attacks resulted in a buff. And let's say 20% of the bladeward buffs resulted in a hit.
Stats would be
400 player attacks(hope you don't mind me rounding off that 1)
40 Bladeward Buffs
8 Bladeward Hits.
122 Boss Attacks
2% of my attacks resulted in a Bladeward Hit

So now 6.5% of the boss attacks were parried at the time of the buff, where as before 1.6% of the boss attacks were parried at the time of the buff.

For an enchant to grant ~2% parry during a proc it is right on the mark.

But even at 10% of my attacks resulting in a bladeward buff I am still only getting 2% of my attacks resulting in a hit.

So two problems I see with this enchant. Is if they increase the Buff proc percentage they would have to decrease the Hit off buff percentage because of the fact that it would make the enchant OP. With the given percentages what would it look like if the buff off hit % was 20%.

Superspy23
06-17-2009, 06:16 PM
Since you dont seam to understand how the enchant works, heres a basic outline

You hit the mob you have a chance for the proc, if it procs you get the buff. The buff is only up until you parry or it times out. Unlike mongoose where the avoidance is up for the full time that the buff is up, blade ward only provides avoidance until you parry. And you can actually have a reasonable idea what parries were caused by the buff because of damage attack that happens when you attack with the buff up.

The buff up time doesn't matter because if you dont parry when it was active it was totally wasted. Unlike mongoose ( the only other avoidance proc enchant) that provides befits even if your not dodging any attacks from the increased dodge chance. Blade ward is only of use if you are parrying attacks when the buff is up.



Yes but averages over too diverse a sample size doesn't matter. On average everyone that graduates college in America is Female. You see how an average of such a large group fails to be representative of the subgroups and situations? Boss attack speed, your attack speed, your parry chance all will have a factor in the amount of time the buff is up.

And yes the person your quoting with the 25% uptime of the buff, but less than 4% usage of the buffs. Say i told you you could have $1 25% of the times you guessed the right number between 1-100. Would it make a lot of sense for you to sit there and keep guessing numbers for hours on end?

And using averages... you know the things you love so much. You can look at a player with % chance to do something, and you can figure out if you increase that % chance by a value what is the average % increase you will get out of it. Thats math... thats the correct way to use averages.

OK I get it. "A man convinced against their will is a man still unconvinced." Whether you validate that its a real 1% increase in avoidance has no bearing on the truth. What you describe to discredit me can be simply explained away as an unlucky streak of the RNG. I know you prefer Blood Draining. Good for you. But I don't think you're properly evaluating the usefulness of Blade Warding. I still think it may have its place and I'm trying to find some numbers with some weight to them "2%" and ".06%" don't do it for me. Your benchmark, mongoose, needed to have an uptime average applied to it to see its overall value too. I just can't see why asking for an average uptime only gets you saying "2% proc." Thats obviously not an answer to the question. I've been trying to find some other people showing their uptime to have more information to get a component for the equation. My interest in this component doesn't mean I somehow don't understand the enchant.

Thanks for the lesson in averages. Can you somehow provide some specifics to show I was evaluating averages wrong or some how don't understand what an average is? Does anyone else think I'm off my rocker to want to find the average uptime?

Listen, I realize that avoidance isn't a guaranty to survive and is dependent on the RNG but I'm sure you yourself have gotten some appreciation for having dodges etc. happening sometimes. You probably even know that increasing these values is worthwhile to bettering your survival. I'm sure you realize streaks happen either to rage starve you or to have you soaking up excessive damage. Averages are presented in percentages and are not guarantied outcomes just like your dodge chance does not guaranty that you will dodge exactly that many attacks. You however cannot negate the value of such stats and moreover you cannot disregard the value in the increases to these stats as well.

Dhalphir
06-17-2009, 06:17 PM
its a 2k heal when you need it the most... and is 99.99% of the time never going to be overhealing... I dont see how that can be seen as a bad thing

You yourself stated in a previous post that the two parries caused by Blade Warding in a particular parse just disappeared into 36k overhealing anyway.

The way Ulduar works, if you're not getting heals constantly, you're probably going to die. So a 2k heal is more often than not just going to increase someone else's overhealing.

That 2k healing from the Blood Reserve might as well be overhealing, even though on the meters its reflected as effective healing, because unless if you take a hit that drops you below 35% health, unless you have a couple big heals incoming, you're dead anyway regardless of the 2k heal, and if you DO have a couple big heals incoming, you'll survive and one of the holy paladins might overheal by an extra 2k.

As I've said before, stamina is an empty swimming pool, health is the water that fills it. Increasing the amount of water that goes into the pool is not the same thing as increasing the size of the pool itself.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 06:37 PM
The issue i have with it, is compared to other proc based avoidance (mongoose) that you gain almost 2% avoidance for 30 seconds along with mitigation and threat, compared to blade ward that only provides the chance for avoidance and then if you avoid provides a small amount of threat, to me there is just no comparison between the two. When you also factor in the 50-60% uptime of mongoose, I just fail to see why you can believe blade ward is superior.

And as far as my preference, i dont believe you can compare avoidance enchants to EH enchants to threat enchants. Each has their own places. Blade ward as it stands now is sub par to Mongoose in effectiveness. Now if you ask me what enchant should a progression MT go with, i will choose the EH option every day of the week because EH works. Blood draining is the EH enchant. Notice i did not start the topic, and i have not started topics like this because i believe the very nature of trying to compare the two will never work.

But what i have argued in this thread is not how Blood drain is better but instead how Blade ward in ineffective at its goal in comparison to other enchants out there.

Tarigar
06-17-2009, 06:42 PM
Mongoose=Avoidance, minor threat, and minor EH increase(due to armor) No way to measure the effectiveness of this enchant
Pray to the RNG gods it helps

Bladeward=Avoidance, minor threat(when it hits)Effectiveness is measured in bladeward hits.
Pray to the RNG gods it helps

Blood Draining=Effective Health
This is your insurance against the negative RNG gods.

Is that a legitimate way to summarize it?

Tarigar
06-17-2009, 06:45 PM
The issue i have with it, is compared to other proc based avoidance (mongoose) that you gain almost 2% avoidance for 30 seconds along with mitigation and threat.

It is not 2% avoidance. I did the math for myself Here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51051-dr-agility-warriors.html)

Dhalphir
06-17-2009, 06:52 PM
Blood Draining is not an EH enchant.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 06:53 PM
From your numbers you used in that thread... 73.529412 agi = 1% dodge not 102... = 1.63 pre DR, rounded for sake of comparison is 2. But your right next time i will point out where i round numbers.

Tarigar
06-17-2009, 06:54 PM
From your numbers you used in that thread... 73.529412 agi = 1% dodge not 102... = 1.63 pre DR, rounded for sake of comparison is 2. But your right next time i will point out where i round numbers.

But if 102 agi=1% dodge with an enchant that gives 120 agi it would be even less.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 06:54 PM
Blood Draining is not an EH enchant.

It is the closest thing to an EH enchant we have. It is a health buffer when we are most likely to need it.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 06:56 PM
But if 102 agi=1% dodge with an enchant that gives 120 agi it would be even less.

Dont blame me for you posting the wrong numbers... Your the one that said its 102 agi = 1% dodge. That was your numbers not mine. When useing my value for agi to dodge it works out to 1.63% dodge pre dr with a 50-60% uptime

Tarigar
06-17-2009, 07:00 PM
Dont blame me for you posting the wrong numbers... Your the one that said its 102 agi = 1% dodge. That was your numbers not mine. When useing my value for agi to dodge it works out to 1.63% dodge pre dr with a 50-60% uptime

If you notice in my actual calculation using Satrina's Thread I used the ~70 agi=1 dodge. I did full calculations further down that thread that to show what my actual dodge gain would be at my current stats.

Lizana
06-17-2009, 07:03 PM
Also keep in mind pallies would gain 2.30% dodge pre DR on mongoose (since this isnt a warrior only debate)

Superspy23
06-18-2009, 08:54 AM
The issue i have with it, is compared to other proc based avoidance (mongoose) that you gain almost 2% avoidance for 30 seconds along with mitigation and threat, compared to blade ward that only provides the chance for avoidance and then if you avoid provides a small amount of threat, to me there is just no comparison between the two. When you also factor in the 50-60% uptime of mongoose, I just fail to see why you can believe blade ward is superior.

And as far as my preference, i dont believe you can compare avoidance enchants to EH enchants to threat enchants. Each has their own places. Blade ward as it stands now is sub par to Mongoose in effectiveness. Now if you ask me what enchant should a progression MT go with, i will choose the EH option every day of the week because EH works. Blood draining is the EH enchant. Notice i did not start the topic, and i have not started topics like this because i believe the very nature of trying to compare the two will never work.

But what i have argued in this thread is not how Blood drain is better but instead how Blade ward in ineffective at its goal in comparison to other enchants out there.

Like Tarigar said its not 2% its ~1.6% and that's before DR. 50-60% uptime is the best case scenario, certainly not the norm. Mongoose is a 1ppm 15 sec buff, all the testing I've seen shows with instants it increases to 1.19ppm. That's not going to give an overall average of 50% uptime. However for the sake of argument lets say it did. That would mean that Mongoose averages ~0.5% increased dodge over all. So to use your reasoning we could call the enchant worthless for avoidance if during the 15 sec buff we didn't actually dodge and even if we did we could say that could have been granted by the other dodge on your gear. This is why we can't follow this method of reasoning through the numbers. Its a logical fallacy.

In short I think it's entirely reasonable to consider Blade Ward a better avoidance enchant than Mongoose. I want to see more of the right numbers to fully evaluate this enchant. Noting instances where the RNG didn't take use of a particular stat isn't supposed to be part of the equation. All we need is more uptime confirmation and average stacks. Seriously that's the necessary information to get the avoidance value of the enchant. Nothing else.

And I agree Blood Draining is a really good enchant. I would definitely choose it over any other options especially for progression. But I remember in the final end game days of BC we were here on TankSpot beating each other up over avoidance vs effective health. We learned that at higher levels of avoidance we were able to make safe assumptions about increased time to live with higher reliability. It just came with the stipulation that you should get "enough" EH first. The saying was "The more avoidance you have the more reliable it is for considering time to live." It is exactly that point that makes me not want to see this enchant (Blade Warding) undervalued.

dagimp007
06-18-2009, 09:12 AM
the stamina might make a difference.

2k heal is not the same as 2k bonus health, no matter which way you swing it.

where are u getting an extra 2k health from... a green to a blue stam gm is what 6 Stam... which is about 65ish HP... but you still upgrade the gems....there is no enchant that is like OMG i would DIE if i dont have that... cause if u need one that bad dont tank please.... the enchants are built to give people who have plenty of things the options for little enchants that may help out in 10% of fights

Lizana
06-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Like Tarigar said its not 2% its ~1.6% and that's before DR. 50-60% uptime is the best case scenario, certainly not the norm. Mongoose is a 1ppm 15 sec buff, all the testing I've seen shows with instants it increases to 1.19ppm. That's not going to give an overall average of 50% uptime. However for the sake of argument lets say it did. That would mean that Mongoose averages ~0.5% increased dodge over all. So to use your reasoning we could call the enchant worthless for avoidance if during the 15 sec buff we didn't actually dodge and even if we did we could say that could have been granted by the other dodge on your gear. This is why we can't follow this method of reasoning through the numbers. Its a logical fallacy.

In short I think it's entirely reasonable to consider Blade Ward a better avoidance enchant than Mongoose. I want to see more of the right numbers to fully evaluate this enchant. Noting instances where the RNG didn't take use of a particular stat isn't supposed to be part of the equation. All we need is more uptime confirmation and average stacks. Seriously that's the necessary information to get the avoidance value of the enchant. Nothing else.

And I agree Blood Draining is a really good enchant. I would definitely choose it over any other options especially for progression. But I remember in the final end game days of BC we were here on TankSpot beating each other up over avoidance vs effective health. We learned that at higher levels of avoidance we were able to make safe assumptions about increased time to live with higher reliability. It just came with the stipulation that you should get "enough" EH first. The saying was "The more avoidance you have the more reliable it is for considering time to live." It is exactly that point that makes me not want to see this enchant (Blade Warding) undervalued.

Mongoose provides other benefits when the buff is up. Blade ward does not. The only effective way to see the worth of blade ward is by looking at the number of damaging attacks done from the buff. Even if the buff was up 100%, if your only getting 1 parry during the uptime of the buff that means the other 99% of the time the buff did nothing for you. Total uptime of the buff is worthless because the buff only does something for you when you actually parry.

as a side note... you keep saying that you need more numbers to prove your theory correct... so why not go out and get them. I have the numbers for mongoose, Blood draining and 26 agi... I can back up my argument with those numbers. Instead of hoping the magical blade ward fairy will drop numbers into your thread why not go and do your own testing and bring back your numbers that will disprove me.

Superspy23
06-18-2009, 10:55 AM
as a side note... you keep saying that you need more numbers to prove your theory correct... so why not go out and get them. I have the numbers for mongoose, Blood draining and 26 agi... I can back up my argument with those numbers. Instead of hoping the magical blade ward fairy will drop numbers into your thread why not go and do your own testing and bring back your numbers that will disprove me.

I wish I had the opportunity. I'm a work all week and only (maybe) go home and play on the weekends kind of guy. I wish I could run the numbers myself. I still love the theorycraft like in the old days of being a hardcore gamer. And when I'm on I do like to optimize my play. Thus my participation in this conversation.

I'm curious about your remark about the enchants you yourself have investigated. I notice that it doesn't include Blade Ward and I'm wondering how you've come to so staunchly make a declaration of its small worth. I am, by the way, primarily advocating that a correct assessment be made, not that it is, or is not, superior. Your own admission shows that your analysis is no better founded than mine.

Don't forget how the attack table works. An increase in an avoidance stat also reduces the chance a normal hit will occur in favor for another option on the attack table. Look at the avoidance system as a whole not just parries. Like I've said before, looking at parries while the proc is up is only going to give you a value of the damage portion of the enchant, not its avoidance value. Try thinking of all avoidance lumped together as a chance-to-be-hit reduction because all avoidance increases push hits off the combat table.

Lizana
06-18-2009, 11:28 AM
Your right i dont have the numbers showing blade ward to be a superior enchant because i haven't been able to find parses showing that, also from 5k auto attacks against the training dummy i saw how horrible the proc rate was and chose not to raid with it.

So let me understand your argument, you havent done any testing, theorycrafting, gone out and tried to find parses, but you want some one else to go and do all that to prove your theory right about the enchant... And until some one goes and does the work for you proving you right your going to assume all other information is incorrect?

The time you have spent posting on this thread could have been used reviewing any of the number of logs you can find with a simple Google search of Blade ward parses

Superspy23
06-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Actually most of my time has been spent trying to keep you from spreading mis information. There is no doubt about it, your statement about it only yielding .06% increase in avoidance is terribly wrong.

Lizana
06-18-2009, 11:56 AM
No the .06% chance is correct useing a 20% base parry rate. Each attack you do has a .06% average chance of procing the buff and the buff providing a parry that you would not of had otherwise from gear. Note this is using rounded numbers for comparison value, and i wasn't even the person who did the math...

Now if you cannot read the words in order, i am not saying that it only provides .06% avoidance.

Superspy23
06-18-2009, 12:14 PM
You did state that the buff yielded nothing unless that .06% chance that its effect was the responsible bits of parry rating. The fact that the buff lowered your chance to be hit by 4% while it was up was totally overlooked. And the fact that it actually reduces incoming hits by an overall average of around 1%, also overlooked. Your evaluation hasn't been properly applied and therefor is full of misinformation. Maybe you didn't proofread your own writings cause I understood them and consequentially they're full of logical fallacies.

Lizana
06-18-2009, 12:24 PM
Please post your math showing the overall average of reducing incoming hits. I would love to see where your getting your numbers off of.

mattdeeze
06-20-2009, 03:48 PM
Lizana, I really think you are overthinking the Blade Warding enchant.

Sure, when you narrow anything down by so many conditions the overall end number is going to be small. The chance that a swing will proc the enchant that will be consumed by the increase that the proc gives you is bound to be very slim.

Step back and simplify a bit. Lets estimate an uptime of 20% (ive seen estimates between 17 and 24% so that seems fair). And lets estimate the increase in total avoidance during uptime as 4% (probably a bit optimistic, but quite possible since most tanks avoid parry like the plague). This gives an average overall pure avoidance of .80% and that isn't even taking into account stacks. The additional damage proc for threat is just gravy.

Mongoose has a 15 second duration with a 45 second internal cooldown and a very high proc rate. So lets say 1 proc per 50 minutes for an uptime of 33% with 1.6% avoidance for an average overall pure avoidance of .53% The increase in armor is pretty small from agil, but it is still a slight perk. And a slight increase in crit chance is a nice little threat boost.

Not a huge difference, but from a pure avoidance standpoint Blade Ward gets the nod as the better avoidance enchant.

Disclaimer: I am using very rough numbers estimated from posts I have read and honestly dont have the time to do personal testing so my results therefore are equaly rough.

That being said I think that Blood Draining is better than either one.

Lizana
06-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Mongoose has a 15 second duration with a 45 second internal cooldown and a very high proc rate. So lets say 1 proc per 50 minutes for an uptime of 33% with 1.6% avoidance for an average overall pure avoidance of .53% The increase in armor is pretty small from agil, but it is still a slight perk. And a slight increase in crit chance is a nice little threat boost.



Lets start with your part about mongoose, First off no internal 45 second cooldown, It can proc back to back to back to back. It has a normalized 1ppm with auto attacks. From my own testing as a prot warrior i am getting 45-55% uptime of the buff. From http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51579-bladeward-vs-mongoose-2.html and the calculator another tankspoter has made, the break points for a 17% uptime blade ward is about 40% uptime of mongoose for avoidance. Also 240 armor is nothing to sneeze at, its not a huge amount but when you consider Ulduar 10 man tank neck from kolo only gives 336 armor. The increased haste improves rage generation, increased crit chance not only would increase dps from crits, but if DW spec would give you increased chance to proc that as well. Compared to the only on parry effects of blade ward, it leaves much to be desired on the new enchant.



Sure, when you narrow anything down by so many conditions the overall end number is going to be small. The chance that a swing will proc the enchant that will be consumed by the increase that the proc gives you is bound to be very slim.

There is two things blade ward can do, one is cause a an attack that would have been a block to be a parry. Thats avoidance. Or it can cause a attack that would have been a normal hit to be a block, thats not avoidance. The number i was giving was the % chance that you would have the enchant proc and get an parry instead of a block. Thats why i am useing the term effective avoidance. If you are going to be going with this enchant because of avoidance you need to realize the chance that you will get the proc and avoid an attack that you would not have avoided if you didnt have the enchant. To me thats no different than looking at blood draining and seeing how many times it will increase your TTL vs how many times you would still be killed without the enchant. If it was consistent parry up 100% of the time it would be a different issue, but the fact you have to have a proc up the same time the game rolls that exact spot on the attack table is a bit too much ifs, if you ask me that is.


And lets estimate the increase in total avoidance during uptime as 4%
its 4% parry before DR. By simply having the def to be uncrittable you are going to lower the amount of parry gained below the maximum per stack possible.



Not a huge difference, but from a pure avoidance standpoint Blade Ward gets the nod as the better avoidance enchant.

Re run your numbers with correct values and you will see differently.


Disclaimer: I am using very rough numbers estimated from posts I have read and honestly dont have the time to do personal testing so my results therefore are equaly rough.

That being said I think that Blood Draining is better than either one.

Disclaimers like this deserve to be at the top of a post. Presenting math and claiming things to be fact then at the end saying but the numbers are made up to prove my case doesn't make for good theorycraft or for ethical posting imo...

Arikak
07-25-2009, 02:26 AM
Why I choose Blood Draining:

It's always there waiting. No prerequisite. No RNG.

Why I didn't choose Blade Warding:

Over the long run, yes, Blade Warding will stop more damage than Blood Draining will ever heal. The most I've seen Blood Draining heal me for personally was about 30k in one fight. So even proccing just 2 Parries will have overly negated the benefits from Blood Draining except for this fact:

Healing is proactive in Wrath. Not reactive.

In a reactive healing world Blade Warding would be king. A fully stopped attack is awesome in that world. But we don't play in that world. Healing is proactive or the tank is dead these days.

Since I have gobs of avoidance already and go on absolutely nuts avoidance streaks as is (which just causes massive OH btw) I choose Blood Draining for progression fights for those times when things in the proactive healing world and RNG based avoidance go bad. Which they do.

I can rely on Blood Draining to be there. I really can't with Blade Warding. Blood Draining is there when your avoidance and healers fail. Blade Warding offers no such re-assurance.