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View Full Version : Losing all my good raiders to "progression"



Ozuls
06-15-2009, 06:44 AM
So this may sound like QQ, but I wanted to see if other people may be experiencing similar issues.

I'm the GM of our guild. We started small, just a few friends, doing Naxx10 runs that we would pug 4-5 spots during. Doing this we started to find people that joined our guild and over time we got to where we were pugging Naxx25 with 10 or so spots filled with pug members. We actually were the first pug raid on our server to clear through Kel T. Other raids had tried but always hit the fail wall at Thad. Eventually we had enough people to fill our own ranks with enough guild members to run full Naxx25. We did two more weeks of Naxx25 full clears.

That left us with about 6 T7.5 helms available and 3 shots at best weapons etc.

Ulduar hit during the week of our first Naxx25 clear as a pug and then we had our 2 full clear guild runs. Our "best" raiders at this time started whining about having to run Naxx and how it was sooo boring. Also, people stopped signing up for raids and stopped showing up. We had about 10 raiders leave to join another guild because "they were doing Uld25." --side note-- just found out those people left that guild because it wasn't raiding

Anyway, I gave in to the more vocal raider demands and we started pushing Uld 10 as our priority. After a few weeks of Uld10 attempts people stopped showing up again. We finally had like 20 people online on a raid night and I decided - hey lets pug some people and do Uld25 and maybe get people excited again. We ended up with about 10 pug members and went and downed FL, Razor, Xt - which was pretty big because most the raid hadn't even seen those guys in 10 man. Then we wiped like mad on Ignis - mostly healer issues--


Long story short-- people still are not signing/showing up to raid and a lot of my really good raiders just left the guild because we weren't progressing enough. I think that more may follow soon.

Any advice? Anyone else experiencing this?

One of our main issues is that our Server- The Scryers - is ridiculously low on Horde. there are like only 4 guilds that even do 25 uld content horde side and the furthest is on Mimiron. -- sad yes-- but there are a million little 10 man guilds on the server, but nobody wants to leave their guild to do larger things. The only real recruitment for raiding happens when someone gets pissed at their old guild and moves on to another. I've thought about joining one of the larger raiding guilds Horde side, but they're a bunch of jerks - always spamming crap on forums, trade channels, etc. and just act like morons.

Additionally, I'm a prot war and my wife is a resto sham - no room for tanks in these guilds - because as many of you on here know tanks are usually the more dependable raiders.

so yeah, this was a bit of a QQ, but really I'm more frustrated. Any advice? Should I can our guild and move off server? Thanks
- One very frustrated GM

Klimpen
06-15-2009, 06:48 AM
Do Kologarn instead of Ignis, he's easier.

In terms of attendance, maybe talk to some people who arn't willing to leave their guild but who are willing to turn up to every raid and be treated as an in-guild raider? Could be a solid option.

Survey_Says
06-15-2009, 11:09 AM
I think you were right to go to Ulduar 10. Anything new will keep people interested and Ulduar10 is a good place to learn the fights before 25. I'm wondering why people in Naxx25 gear though could not make good progress in Ulduar10?

You need a strong raid leader who can make adjustments after every wipe and point out what went wrong and what needs improvement. As long as you are doing better on each pull of a boss people should be content and want to keep going. If you begin hitting a wall and no matter what you try you cannot improve, then you may have hit some sort of gear check. If healing is an issue, take an extra healer. Even if it hurts your dps you will be able to stay alive longer each pull and people will learn the fight faster.

Above all you need to protect your core group of raiders at all costs. Give them perks which will make progression less painful such as free repairs from guild bank or free consumables.

Another thing you can do is when you post up raid schedule do not post what raid you are actually doing. People who actually want to raid will show up no matter what you do. And depending on who shows up on any given night is the biggest factor on what raid you should be doing.

GravityDK
06-15-2009, 11:40 AM
This is a fascinating topic for me, on so many levels.

Klimpen, this isn't a question of which boss is easier, it's about guild survival, progression, and keeping members.

My situation for reference: my guild (I'm an MT & RL, not officer or GM, but am in the 'veterans' who have a shared forum with the officers) has had a similar journey to Ozuls, altough we were killing Naxx 25 as a guild with no pugs prior to Ulduar release. The problem we have is being quite casual (no attendance minimum, doing /roll for loot with an honour system, everyone is on first-name basis with each other, many long-term members too, myself for 1.5 yrs so far). We lost a lot of people recently (various reasons, but many because the guild isn't super-structured and doesn't feel like a progressive guild), so we decided to just do U10 instead of recruiting back up again.

Doing U10 instead has been a really good decision for us because we're actually progressing, each week a new boss or two goes down. Up to learning Mimiron now. We just have U10 twice a week.

We don't do any N25 runs, but sometimes do N10 for alts. We allow people to pug anything except Ulduar.

Now we lost people for some similar reasons to you, and for us it was not solvable because we are a casual guild. We just don't use the levers that can flick a guild into overdrive.

Maintaining a casual guild is hard, I think it requires a strong culture and social side and requires some progression and focus on raids but also requires more than that (like out-of-game friendship, or fun events regularly, or whatever to create a sense of enjoyment). Lots of factors there.

dwilkes023
06-16-2009, 09:51 AM
"Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential." -- Winston Churchill

Make sure you wind up with raid id's for every raid that's important to you every week. If you bring along your guildies, then you will slowly grow and achieve success as a guild, provided you can recruit a few here and there. If you have to pug, you'll meet the people who want to do those instances too, and you may find what you are looking for there.

Either way, you are doing what you want - raiding. Does it really matter who you raid with in the short term - especially when you are unhappy with your guildies?

But yeah, if you have guildies who want to do Ulduar25, schedule it one night a week and do your best to pug what you need. Just put forth that continuous effort to improve and you eventually will.

law90026
06-16-2009, 09:07 PM
Ulduar hit during the week of our first Naxx25 clear as a pug and then we had our 2 full clear guild runs. Our "best" raiders at this time started whining about having to run Naxx and how it was sooo boring. Also, people stopped signing up for raids and stopped showing up. We had about 10 raiders leave to join another guild because "they were doing Uld25." --side note-- just found out those people left that guild because it wasn't raiding

This is the first indication that there's something wrong. 3 weeks of Naxx clears and they're already complaining about boring Naxx? Most guilds were clearing Naxx over and over while waiting for Ulduar to come out.

It sounds like there are some issues with managing your raiders' expectations here.

3 weeks of clearing Naxx does not mean your guild is an Ulduar 25 guild.

Also, it sounds like pushing on to Ulduar so fast made some of the less dedicated raiders stop coming for raids. Progression raiding isn't for everyone.

Suggestion: Make it clear to your guild what your current raiding expectations are, whether it's Naxx 25, Uld 10, Uld 10, w/e. If people want to stay, they will stay. Some might leave. Then you can decide what you need to recruit or if expectations need to be changed.


Anyway, I gave in to the more vocal raider demands and we started pushing Uld 10 as our priority. After a few weeks of Uld10 attempts people stopped showing up again. We finally had like 20 people online on a raid night and I decided - hey lets pug some people and do Uld25 and maybe get people excited again. We ended up with about 10 pug members and went and downed FL, Razor, Xt - which was pretty big because most the raid hadn't even seen those guys in 10 man. Then we wiped like mad on Ignis - mostly healer issues--

Again, it boils down to what your guild's raiding mentality is like. Ulduar is significantly harder than Naxx and isn't everyone's cup of tea. Trying to force progression can lead to people not enjoying themselves anymore.

Evaluate again whether you went to Ulduar too early. There's nothing wrong with taking a step back to do Naxx while rebuilding your raiding core.


One of our main issues is that our Server- The Scryers - is ridiculously low on Horde. there are like only 4 guilds that even do 25 uld content horde side and the furthest is on Mimiron. -- sad yes-- but there are a million little 10 man guilds on the server, but nobody wants to leave their guild to do larger things. The only real recruitment for raiding happens when someone gets pissed at their old guild and moves on to another. I've thought about joining one of the larger raiding guilds Horde side, but they're a bunch of jerks - always spamming crap on forums, trade channels, etc. and just act like morons.

The fact that Horde side is small means that the pool of decent raiders is actually very limited, which is another drawback to Ulduar progression. Like you said, the further progressed is Mimiron .. that's a real indication of how bad the skill level is.

Consider perhaps if you can form a guild alliance of some sort with a couple of other decent 10-man guilds. That gives you potentially enough people to do 25-mans on some nights while doing guild-only 10-mans on other nights.