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View Full Version : First Nax 10 pug ot, a few questions



Kurtosis
06-12-2009, 11:46 PM
Late last night, as I was failing to find a group for H VH, someone kept spamming they needed one more tank for Nax 10 pug. Pst'd him I'm geared for it, but never been there, willing to try if they are, and got invited. A few things happened I haven't seen tanking heroics yet, need some feedback:

1. On Maexxna Blood Boil wasn't pulling the small non-elite spider spawns. Any idea why? Never had a problem using BB to pick up and maintain aoe aggro in heroics. Do dps pull aggro on mobs they don't harm? I recall that healers pull aggro on everything, but these spiders were going after everyone - hunter, mage, druid tree.

2. Against Anub'Rhekan I was tasked with picking up the Crypt Guard adds and the little non-elite spawns. I had trouble with Dark Command on the Guards - it was completely unresponsive alot of times. I kept jamming the button like crazy, but it did nothing (not even miss, just didn't work).

Anyone have any idea why this might have been? I noticed I was having more lag in the 10m than in 5mans, and thought that might have been it, but my strikes and spells were working pretty normally (had to use those instead of Dark Command to aggro).

3. Against Faerlina we accidentally killed her 4 adds b/f she started enraging. Since that meant we were going to have to kill her has fast as possible b/f the healers ran out of mana and she killed the tank, I popped Army of the Dead and a ghoul for every extra bit of dps I could muster.

Was AotD a bad idea? The MT had plenty of aggro built up over the fight, and AotD's taunts didn't seem to pull her aggro or reset it.

I've also used AotD on Ingvar the Plunderer in H UK, at the start of his second, Undead phase, and against Cyanigosa in H VH, at the start of her fight. In both cases it seems to buy a good ~10s for the tank and raid to take a chunk out of the boss's health (a full 1/2 of Cyanigosa's) b/f it even starts targeting the tank. I've also not had problems picking up aggro on the boss as soon as the army is all dead. But that's with a sample size of only 2, so may not be significant.

I hear there were issues with AotD taunts on bosses a while back, but that some changes have been made. Is this still a no-no, or is it ok to use now in certain situations?

Cyranus
06-13-2009, 08:52 AM
AotD does not taunt Raid Bosses now, but they do taunt adds (such as the grand widow adds or crypt guards from Anub or KT). They do taunt Heroic bosses such as Cynigosa(horrible fight to use them on because she spins around in circles breathing and tail swiping)

Kurtosis
06-13-2009, 11:14 AM
...and tail swiping)
Ah, didn't realize she did that, thx. Knew about the breath attack, but that always seems to come later in the fight.

keeprock
06-13-2009, 01:31 PM
1. On Maexxna Blood Boil wasn't pulling the small non-elite spider spawns. Any idea why? Never had a problem using BB to pick up and maintain aoe aggro in heroics. Do dps pull aggro on mobs they don't harm? I recall that healers pull aggro on everything, but these spiders were going after everyone - hunter, mage, druid tree.

Those spiders get spread out pretty fast and I don't think they use the normal aggro mechanics. So Blood Boil probably misses most of them and they continue on with their randomly chosen target. In some runs a we just have a caster AoE them all down and we don't use the offtank.



2. Against Anub'Rhekan I was tasked with picking up the Crypt Guard adds and the little non-elite spawns. I had trouble with Dark Command on the Guards - it was completely unresponsive alot of times. I kept jamming the button like crazy, but it did nothing (not even miss, just didn't work).

When Anub does his locust swarm he stacks silence on everyone in range of the swarm. You were probably in range. Not much you can do about that one except have the tank move Anub to the other wall so you can pick up the guards easier.



3. Against Faerlina we accidentally killed her 4 adds b/f she started enraging. Since that meant we were going to have to kill her has fast as possible b/f the healers ran out of mana and she killed the tank, I popped Army of the Dead and a ghoul for every extra bit of dps I could muster.

I didn't know AotD didn't taunt raid bosses either. That's good to know. In that case, there is no reason to not use it. But that also means it won't buy you any rest time while the army has aggro on the boss. I guess that's why I see dps dropping it all the time without causing any problems. But it would surely suck if it did taunt on some bosses. It would be an instant wipe if incorrectly used.

Kurtosis
06-14-2009, 12:00 AM
When Anub does his locust swarm he stacks silence on everyone in range of the swarm. You were probably in range. Not much you can do about that one except have the tank move Anub to the other wall so you can pick up the guards easier.
/lightbulb! yup that was it, thanks! Was going crazy wondering if my Nostromo was on the fritz or something. RL told us to get out of Locus Swarm, but also for OT to pick up add, so I figured I could pick it up then pull it out of LS. Didn't mention LS not only dmgs but also silences, that would have been very useful info.

That's one of the hard parts of being a noob tank, in the rush to get through the instance, people leave out crucial little details like that, even after I've told everyone at the start that I haven't done this yet and need all the advice they can provide.

But it would surely suck if it did taunt on some bosses. It would be an instant wipe if incorrectly used.
I still don't fully understand the AotD mechanic, and it's more complicated since it works differently on raid bosses vs heroic ones.

For example, in H VH tonight, I summoned it again on Cyanigosa, and we were able to get her down to 1/2 health (no exaggeration) b/f she even started targeting me. I was watching party health meters and no one got hit by tail swipe, or at least not hard enough to even warrant a heal, and she didn't even bother to frost breath until after Army was all dead (same with past 2 times tanking her).

Same w/ phase 2 H Ingvar today, got him to about 2/3 b/f he even started targeting the tank. I find that extremely useful, especially if your healer is relatively weak, which we were in both cases (I get nervous if I spend more than a few miliseconds at less than half health and start popping cd's).

I was also watching Omen on those two fights, and saw that even though Army was taunting the bosses, I was still building up threat during the taunts (so was dps, but not even close to mine). It didn't appear that the AotD taunts were resetting my threat, and when the Army was all dead, the boss immediately aggro'd me.

Am I observing that right? AotD taunts don't reset tank's threat, just have a 100% chance of aggro'ing mob/5man boss for a t amount of time (after which they quickly get 1shot)?

And then that all changes on raid bosses, no taunt there at all, just extra dps for a few seconds?

orcstar
06-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Am I observing that right? AotD taunts don't reset tank's threat, just have a 100% chance of aggro'ing mob/5man boss for a t amount of time (after which they quickly get 1shot)?
As far as I know taunt has never "reset" threat.

I'm not accustomed enough with AotD mechanics but....if you taunt a mob, your built up threat will be made the same as the one with the highest threat and the mob will aggro on you. So you end up with the mobs aggroing you and with highest threat and work from there.

Threat (unless there's a threat wipe mechanic during the fight) is reset when the mob reaches 0 hp.

Kurtosis
06-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Ah, thx. So just make sure I taunt the mob as soon as Army is all dead, basically.

Faladir
06-14-2009, 05:02 PM
Hello, I am a End game tank, and about AotD. AotD is indeed in raids a extra boost dmg for around 40k if they dont get killed. about the taunt: If you taunt a mob you will have the exact same agro as the previous highest treath person. The difference between your taunt and the army's taunt is that your taunt will force the mob to attack you for serveral more seconds after the taunt itself. About army being useless: Not true, if you have read the AotD skill itself you would have known. Army of the Dead : "Summons an entire legion of Ghouls to fight for the Death Knight. The Ghouls will swarm the area, taunting and fighting anything they can. While channelling Army of the Dead, the Death Knight takes less damage equal to <his/her> Dodge plus Parry chance."
This means like when doing mimiron on 25m, this saves a CD from your healer when getting hit with plasma blast or a Flamebreath from OS+*.

Kurtosis
06-15-2009, 12:46 AM
Interesting, thx Faladir. If you get hit by a boss (or anything else) while channeling AotD, does it cancel the channel?

Also, about tailswiping dragon bosses. It seems Keristrasza swipes, Cyanagosa doesn't. Army works well on the latter, but the former I get knocked back across the room every time I come close. Didn't wipe b/c of it though, just taunted her after Army was all dead, and continued the fight with her now down to about 3/4 health.

callendeath
06-15-2009, 12:55 AM
Interesting, thx Faladir. If you get hit by a boss (or anything else) while channeling AotD, does it cancel the channel?

Also, about tailswiping dragon bosses. It seems Keristrasza swipes, Cyanagosa doesn't. Army works well on the latter, but the former I get knocked back across the room every time I come close. Didn't wipe b/c of it though, just taunted her after Army was all dead, and continued the fight with her now down to about 3/4 health.

if you read in the tool tip while casting army you take less damage equale to your parry+doged precents. about amry iv notcied when tanking sometimes the boss will attack the army insed of you but if you stop the cast by moving before it completes it doesnt happen (atlest in my experiance)

Kurtosis
06-15-2009, 01:49 AM
Yeah, moving cancels the cast since it's channeled. Just wondering if damage cancels it too.

Faladir
06-15-2009, 05:08 AM
No it doesnt, the only things that interupts it are: A interupt skill, A silence skill, something that knocks you back, your death.

Kurtosis
06-16-2009, 09:14 AM
Ah, even better, thanks. First channeled spell I'm aware of that movement doesn't cancel.

Jaeden
06-16-2009, 09:47 AM
1. On Maexxna Blood Boil wasn't pulling the small non-elite spider spawns. Any idea why? Never had a problem using BB to pick up and maintain aoe aggro in heroics. Do dps pull aggro on mobs they don't harm? I recall that healers pull aggro on everything, but these spiders were going after everyone - hunter, mage, druid tree.

The little spiders move fast enough that they are usually out of the DnD radius before it ticks. They also usually have some threat form heals by that point. Have an ae dps kill them.


2. Against Anub'Rhekan I had trouble with Dark Command on the Guards - it was completely unresponsive alot of times. I kept jamming the button like crazy, but it did nothing (not even miss, just didn't work).

As stated, you got silenced. Best to use DG from a distance.


3. Against Faerlina Was AotD a bad idea? The MT had plenty of aggro built up over the fight, and AotD's taunts didn't seem to pull her aggro or reset it.

Aotd is good for any boss fight that does not have adds that need to be controlled to prevent wipes. Aotd has a different type of taunt that Dark Commant, Taunt, etc. Raid bosses are immune, but regulars are often not.

And yes, moving interrupts army cast.

Theotherone
06-16-2009, 10:27 AM
I use AofD as an extra "Oh, @$%&" button in raids. Usually, near the end of a boss encounter after the healers have been sucking down manna, I'll pop it; it says you take less damage while channeling (so gives a bit of a break) and you get that last little extra dps to down the boss. I haven't really seen a melee attack cancel the channeling.

I never use AofD on Ingvar and request that any other DK in the group not use it, since it turns him all over the place. I like to keep Ingvar turned squarely on me and facing away from the party. Pop a cooldown or two and there's not a lot of damage he can do.

Faladir
06-16-2009, 06:50 PM
Fault on my side for not explaining it well enough, ofcourse it gets canceled by moving, I was writing the message Under Proposition that you had basic knowledge of channeling spells already. The unique thing about this channeling spell is that it does not get reduced each hit you get.