View Full Version : Every week feels like week 1

06-12-2009, 08:29 PM
So as MT and a guild officer (and Real Life friend of our GM) i do alot of raid coordinating and raid leading, which has been leading to some degree of frustrations.

Our server (Tortheldrin-US) is a medium pop. with alot of being trying to vie to be successful, which doesn't lead to the biggest pond from which to fish.
With a recent influx of recruits things just seem to be sloppy.

Overall group coordination is there, assignments are being doled out, but it just seems that execution on an individual basis is lacking from too many players at once at times, thus leading to an overall failure (i.e. a wipe).

I've seen us wipe 5-6 times on bosses we 1 shot the week before, and most of our players know. i've seen us take 4-5 hours to clear up to mimiron, and i've seen us take over 10 hours to do it.
We have many quality and talented players (can clear some 10man hard-modes), but something just feels like it's missing in our 25mans.

i'm not opposed to advice or feedback, but i think mostly i just needed to vent a small bit. Anyone else having a similar situation?

06-13-2009, 11:51 AM
Inconsistency eh.
Do you also have inconsistent 25 people turning up, a high degree of variation?
Or do individual players have variable gaming quality, one night they pwn the next they suck?
I'm wondering where the variation in performance comes from.

Do you track raid stats with worldoflogs/WWS and use a failbot? They can help identify problems pretty quickly too.

06-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Sounds like a motivation issue. Could it be that your good players are burnt out?

06-13-2009, 12:46 PM
I think WoW should include a sobriety test you have to pass before entering raid dungeons :) I know a lot of really excellent players that turn to crap when they're high. Unless they're doing a lot of talking you don't usually realize what's wrong either.

06-13-2009, 01:00 PM
Byte - i think motivation may be an issue in some cases.

Gravity - there seems to be a mix of the 2 cases you're stating. As noted, with a recent influx of new players and our having a good of amount of people with various (and at times quite time consuming) RL responsibilites such as raising kids, we do tend to have a variety of players. However we also have a scant players that are wishy-washy in performance. Some nights (or even some attempts) they are top-notch, and other times simply under what they are capable of. I'm grateful to have 3 very solid and consitant players to back me in the tanking dept. however that's obviously not going to win it out on it's own.

We usually have 4 or 5 officers always running Recount and reviewing with each other, though i will admit there is no WWS in our raids. Failbot is being used, though usually for reference, and without auto brodcasting.

06-14-2009, 06:48 AM
I think WoW should include a sobriety test you have to pass before entering raid dungeons :) I know a lot of really excellent players that turn to crap when they're high. Unless they're doing a lot of talking you don't usually realize what's wrong either.

It's so sad, and true. we had a go who went offline a lot during raids. Later found out he smoked dope, and would literally fall asleep at the keyboard. He stopped getting invites.

Magnarosh, sounds like you could lift performance in a few ways, which suits your guild is a function of guild culture.

If you can just be a hard-ass (my favourite technique), then do that. Call out fails. Have high expectations. Don't invite the lower performers. Gboot losers.

If you're more human and friendly, you have less options to lift performance, and the best solution is changing who raids (gboot/no invites/ etc) rather than actual performance-management.

Casual guilds - if you're got RL-responsibilities taking precedence (I'm in a guild that allows it too), then you probably have no attendance minimum, probably don't have mandated that people sign-off on having read strategies, little or no class leader organisation, and so on.

Lifting your game is just harder in more casual guilds. You have less levers.

06-15-2009, 12:47 PM
What you've described is virtually every single raiding guild.

There are highs and lows in the raiding game. How you respond to those highs and lows is what determines how successful you are. Ultimately, it sounds like an influx of recruits means you are not taking recruiting seriously enough. (ie. too many, too fast)

Ultimately, the most concerning issue I think you have is that you say you're doing a lot of raid coordinating and raid leading which tells me 2 things:

1) You don't have a regular raid schedule. (ie. set days and set times that never change)
2) You change your raid leader on your 25 mans regularly.

If my assumptions are correct, they are both massive issues. An effective raiding guild is all about consistency. You must be consistent in everything. If you aren't, the lack of attendance and motivation is directly a result of poor guild management.

I realize though, I'm reading a lot into what you've said, so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong and describe your situation more especially in regards to the following:

1) What is your loot system?
2) How often do you raid?
3) How does one get invited to a raid?
4) How many officers do you have?
5) How many total players do you have?
6) How long has the guild been around?

06-16-2009, 08:58 AM
On the part about casual guilds being difficult to lead, especially in raid content, I agree. But Ven, I think you are reading too much into the OPs responses.

I raid lead on Malygos, Medium pop server, much of a similar situation to the OP. We have a core of roughly 15 people who can be expected to show on a regular basis and then about 15-20 other people who are on about 60% of the time. We have only a single raid leader for any 25 mans (myself) and the majority of any ten progression or hard modes we may run. We run EPGP, a very set raid schedule, and all the other boxes checked. And yet, mentioning the fact that we have a "Real Life comes first attitude" has opened the door to inconsistencies in showing up to raid.

Motivation and drug use aside, the "casual" guild is the hardest beast to run. You can attempt to be a hard ass, yet that is going to turn off people as much as motivate others, they are usually there because they want a more laid-back approach. You can't force them to show because then you are "hardcore". Even on the loot front, EPGP does little to assuasge the problem. We have attempted to give out extra EP for showing up on time and adjusting ranks separating out our core and our casual groups of raiders, but it does little: those that show up all the time have the best loot and know the stategies; those that show up infrequently know that they will have the scraps left from whatever the core raiders don't need, but in most cases that is much better than what they got from the run they showed up to 2 weeks ago. Short of sharding loot that people could actually use for spite, any run we do that we bring in one of our casual raiders almost guarantees them most of their class gear if and when it falls.

I guess the point of the huge wall of text here is that until everyone in the guild is ont he same page on all fronts (gear, attendance, attitude) there is always going to be problems raiding casually. You may see the people on top just get burnt out of corpse dragging and start taking more breaks themselves or you may see them leave for guilds consistently running higher end things. Just be prepared to explain every boss fight every time you go in and except that labeling yourself as casual opens you up to poor attendance and inconsistent players. Or start setting very specific standards and benchmarks for people coming to runs and who gets invites and be prepared to lose the label. Personally, i like the term softcore raiding :D

06-16-2009, 02:05 PM
Like Cathandris said, casual guilds are tough. You know project daedalus, the research Nick Yee did on MMOs? He worked out that after 19 months, over 50% of people have moved into a casual playtype. (Article here (http://pwnwear.com/2009/06/13/burnout-is-inevitable/)).

So don't feel like you're alone, it's "normal". :)