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Chamenas
06-10-2009, 07:39 AM
There's been some buzz going around about DKs taking Greater Inscription of the Gladiator over the Hodir one for tanking. However, while the 30 stam is nice, I know that I would rather not lose what I have for dodge. Question is, which is more valuable to me at the moment? I'm supposing some tanks might like the PvP inscription after getting more avoidance in Ulduar. Without any buffs (including Horn of Winter) I have 23.77% dodge and 16.8% parry. I have 31.3k health. Which do you think would be more beneficial to me?

Vanthus
06-10-2009, 08:31 AM
I gladly took the 30 stamina over the 20 dodge rating and 15 def rating.

The way I look at it is that Stamina actually has increasing returns while dodge/defense rating have diminishing returns.

Chamenas
06-10-2009, 11:54 AM
I gladly took the 30 stamina over the 20 dodge rating and 15 def rating.

The way I look at it is that Stamina actually has increasing returns while dodge/defense rating have diminishing returns.

That's a good way to think about it, thank you.

Lizana
06-10-2009, 01:47 PM
That's a good way to think about it, thank you.

The other way to think of it is, Dodge is such a powerful stat they have to reduce its usefulness after a point, where as stamina isnt as powerful of a stat so you can stack as much of it as you want and we dont have to worry about it because it is a weaker stat....

Satorri
06-10-2009, 03:32 PM
o.O Stamina does not have increasing rewards.

Dodge doesn't actually have decreasing returns, though the rating has diminishing returns.

They both have a linear relationship with your ability to survive, but Stamina directly influences the size of your health, or the size of hit you can take, while dodge reduces your chances to take more than one hit in a row. Choose the shoulder you like most, though for the itemization the pure pve scrip is more net gain, it's not a big difference.

Esch
06-11-2009, 09:04 AM
o.O Stamina does not have increasing rewards.

Dodge doesn't actually have decreasing returns, though the rating has diminishing returns.

They both have a linear relationship with your ability to survive, but Stamina directly influences the size of your health, or the size of hit you can take, while dodge reduces your chances to take more than one hit in a row. Choose the shoulder you like most, though for the itemization the pure pve scrip is more net gain, it's not a big difference.

At the same time, Defense/Dodge ratings don't scale with anything, while Stamina does with talents and BoKings. I've started looking at putting 30 stamina on my t7.5 shoulders (I'm using XT's 25 shoulders atm) as a test, but the simple fact that 30 stamina isn't just 300 hits points is an aspect I need to consider.

As a blood DK, the spec/presence pushes 30 stamina into 349.8 hit points (ignoring rounding), or a ~16.6% increase. BoKings pushes that to 384.78 hit points, or 28.26% increase. I don't see 20 dodge/15 def rating turning into 26 dodge/19 def rating (28% increases) from talents/stance/buffs. Being missed is nice, but ultimately, being able to beat the RNG gods during double unavoided hits is huge.

The only good news is that this isn't an arena reward with a rating requirement, like weapons.

wazdaa
06-11-2009, 09:41 AM
At the same time, Defense/Dodge ratings don't scale with anything, while Stamina does with talents and BoKings. I've started looking at putting 30 stamina on my t7.5 shoulders (I'm using XT's 25 shoulders atm) as a test, but the simple fact that 30 stamina isn't just 300 hits points is an aspect I need to consider.

As a blood DK, the spec/presence pushes 30 stamina into 349.8 hit points (ignoring rounding), or a ~16.6% increase. BoKings pushes that to 384.78 hit points, or 28.26% increase. I don't see 20 dodge/15 def rating turning into 26 dodge/19 def rating (28% increases) from talents/stance/buffs. Being missed is nice, but ultimately, being able to beat the RNG gods during double unavoided hits is huge.

The only good news is that this isn't an arena reward with a rating requirement, like weapons.
guess Insect Swarm - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48468) and the like aren't familiar to you then. to put it very short. the more avoidance you have, the better additional avoidance get's. so in a way that 20dodge/15def rating does scale in raids, you just don't see it in your character screen.

dagimp007
06-11-2009, 10:03 AM
there is a point where the stam enchant would be better then the Def and dodge... it is diffrent for everyperson cause its alll dependent on how you feel

Hyperios
06-11-2009, 12:32 PM
This is very interesting.....

I think it may benifit blood tanks more than others simply due to veteran of the third war plus more HP = more heals from DS and rune tap.

Like everyone is saying i think the gladiator inscription probably passes pinnacle at higher gear levels where there is already an abundance of avoidance stats.

Personally, i was at 36994 hp unbuffed as a blood tank with the pinnacle inscription, 27.03 dodge and 19.50 parry, according to my avoidance macro thats 55.27% avoidance

Switching to gladiator i moved up to 37346 hp, had to switch from agility on cloak to defense to stay above cap (which isnt necessarily that much of a loss) and came out with 26.46% dodge, 19.50% parry with a total 54.70% avoidance

so gain 352 hp and lose .57% avoidance. (also probably lost a little crit and ap due to the enchant switch but it was agility so it would have been minimal for a DK)

I plan on using the pvp inscription for the simple fact that im blood, if i was still frost i would stick with the avoidance one.

Satorri
06-11-2009, 04:52 PM
Good points both Esch and Wazdaa.

I do stand by my point that the total attribution of the dodge+parry wins on net value, the more important question is what is most valuable to your character.

Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable. The health is not as valuable to me for that particular slot as the dodge+def is. Also, if you are a scribe it is a no brainer, the self-only master shoulder inscription blows the stam out of the water. WTB scribe shoulder enchant for stamina.

Monteverdi
06-11-2009, 04:56 PM
I'm a paladin and I use it... I'm not the most up-to-date on math and the like, but best I can tell it's at the very elast comparable to the Hodir enchant, if not more desirable in some cases.

Hyperios
06-11-2009, 05:23 PM
I agree with Satorri, seems the further my guild gets into ulduar 25 the less i have to worry about defense rating as it seems everything is loaded with it. That is why I think that depending on your gear it can be better.

Clearly if you are are right at 540 with the pinnacle enchant you shouldnt drop it and have to gem for defense and if you are using a defense trinket you probably shouldnt either. As with most gearing its hard to simply say something is cut and dry "better" than everything else, its all dependent on your gear and how you play

michah
06-11-2009, 07:03 PM
one thing alot of people forget is that, for whatever reason, resilience does in fact still work in instances. at one point blizzard had stated that they intended to make that stop working, but that change did not go live. resilience does work towards "defense cap" and it works better per point towards it then defense does. so keep that in mind.

Vanthus
06-11-2009, 07:37 PM
Indeed the 15 resilience is actually a greater contribution toward being un-crittable than 15 defense rating is, so the dropping below 540 is a non-issue in this particular case (unless its also an IBF worry).

Satorri
06-12-2009, 05:18 AM
The issue is that Resilience when you are at 540 def is completely wasted. Going over the uncrittable cap still gets you positive impact, and achieving the cap with defense gets you avoidance as well.

You *can* use resilience in PvE, but its value as well is rocky and quickly disappearable.

Vanthus
06-12-2009, 08:11 AM
Yes I understand how Resilience in PVE works.
This thread is about a shoulder enchant with 30 sta and 15 res vs. one with 20 dodge rating and 15 defense rating.
You and Hyperios specifically state in your posts that going below 540 defense and becoming critable is a concern.

Satorri: Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable.

Hyperios: Clearly if you are are right at 540 with the pinnacle enchant you shouldnt drop it and have to gem for defense

I am stating that in a direct comparison between the two, that argument is not valid because the 15 resilience will reduce your chance to be crit more than 15 defense rating.

I do agree that defense rating has other value such as extra avoidance and contribution to IBF and should be considered, however, that is not what you guys spoke of earlier.

Esch
06-12-2009, 08:43 AM
guess Insect Swarm - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48468) and the like aren't familiar to you then. to put it very short. the more avoidance you have, the better additional avoidance get's. so in a way that 20dodge/15def rating does scale in raids, you just don't see it in your character screen.

I look at my EH/Health as innate to my control, with BoKings as a given in a raid group. Note that it's baseline now, which ensures it's almost certain to be present. At the same time, Insect Swarm isn't assured, as it requires a specific talent spec of druid that not every 10 or 25 will have included.

There is also the aspect that avoidance is generally useless against magical spike damage, where stamina continues to provide mitigation against dying 'immediately'. Giving a boss 3% chance to missing hitting you physically doesn't improve your avoidance against a fireball. Mimiron's Plasma Blast comes to mind, as the additional hitpoints gives healers fractionally more leeway. (I'm ignoring DK - Spell Deflection given the class/spec requirement.)


I am stating that in a direct comparison between the two, that argument is not valid because the 15 resilience will reduce your chance to be crit more than 15 defense rating.

I do agree that defense rating has other value such as extra avoidance and contribution to IBF and should be considered, however, that is not what you guys spoke of earlier.

I think Satorri, Hyperios and myself all look at 540 Defense as being superiour to any resilience. That you can micromanage defense/resilience to remain crit immune is valid, but not ideal as you lose avoidance overall in the process. Crit immunity is all resilience offers. As such, the defense is a valid comparison, though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.

Hyperios
06-12-2009, 11:32 AM
That was my fault i missed going over what the resilience added, I do agree it does contribute to crit immunity but it is commonly overlooked.

Most tanks shoot for 540 defense even at early gear levels where resilience would be easier in general because of the avoidance it adds, while this small of an amount wouldnt be that big of a difference i would still prefer to sit at 540 defense even with the resil enchant.

At this point i would say its mostly due to people armory'ing other people for pugs and not knowing about tanking and secondly because crit immunity via defense has been engraved in my skull since i began tanking.

wazdaa
06-12-2009, 12:37 PM
I look at my EH/Health as innate to my control, with BoKings as a given in a raid group. Note that it's baseline now, which ensures it's almost certain to be present. At the same time, Insect Swarm isn't assured, as it requires a specific talent spec of druid that not every 10 or 25 will have included.

There is also the aspect that avoidance is generally useless against magical spike damage, where stamina continues to provide mitigation against dying 'immediately'. Giving a boss 3% chance to missing hitting you physically doesn't improve your avoidance against a fireball. Mimiron's Plasma Blast comes to mind, as the additional hitpoints gives healers fractionally more leeway. (I'm ignoring DK - Spell Deflection given the class/spec requirement.) my answers was just to your 'dodge/parry/defense rating don't scale in raid' which is wrong. i don't make a judgement about which enchant is better bc they both serve different purpouse.
in 10man the debuff might not be there always, but neither is bok. but in 25 it's always there if no boomkin, there still is a hunters pet.



I think Satorri, Hyperios and myself all look at 540 Defense as being superiour to any resilience. That you can micromanage defense/resilience to remain crit immune is valid, but not ideal as you lose avoidance overall in the process. Crit immunity is all resilience offers. As such, the defense is a valid comparison, though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.
this is just beyond me, on one side you proclaim the superiority of 30stam>20dodge/15defense or EH>avoidance (which when looking at it in the term of budget allocated to gems is a bad trade off 24sta=16def=16dodge, making 20dodge/15def>30sta) and at the other side you say you shouldn't rely on resilience to get crit immune bc you lose avoidance in the proces or avoidance>EH.

either you go for EH and make use of that resilience stacking as much stam as possible and as little defense rating as need.

or you go for avoidance/balanced set and you don't take resilience to start with bc it's a waste of item budget.

Esch
06-12-2009, 09:45 PM
my answers was just to your 'dodge/parry/defense rating don't scale in raid' which is wrong. i don't make a judgement about which enchant is better bc they both serve different purpouse.
in 10man the debuff might not be there always, but neither is bok. but in 25 it's always there if no boomkin, there still is a hunters pet.

*facepalm* Why do I suspect said hunter's pet will also be a 51pt BM Spec exotic pet? Frankly, BoKings can be assumed in a 10 man as it requires a single class to be present, regardless of spec. You can assume a druid or hunter will be in a 10 man, but you can't assume how they're spent talent points. (If you get nitpicky, a lot of talented buffs/debuffs have a similar but baseline versions. Warlock Curse of Elements, for example, is a baseline version of boomkin's Earth and Moon and unholy DK's Ebonplague Bringer)





By that logic, a gem with 16 parry rating is equal to 24 stamina, as that's how the gems are budget. Reality is gems are continuing the pattern set up in BC, and they aren't budgeted as gear is currently. There is also diminishing returns on dodge, where stamina doesn't.

I also didn't say you should rely on resilience to get crit immune - I said it's not ideal as you're giving up avoidance. You can be crit immune without avoidance, but you're going to take significantly more hits as a result.

[Quote]either you go for EH and make use of that resilience stacking as much stam as possible and as little defense rating as need.

or you go for avoidance/balanced set and you don't take resilience to start with bc it's a waste of item budget.

EH relies on health, avoidance and mitigation. Magical EH relies on... health. The commonality of health (hitpoints, stamina, etc.) is why stacking stamina is often employed. I'm not supporting that you ignore defense/avoidance, but realize that you can get to a solid level of avoidance and just start stacking health. I can see someone getting a lot of health, but the sheer lack of avoidance means that you'll take significantly more hits and be reliant on healers keeping you alive.

wazdaa
06-12-2009, 11:50 PM
By that logic, a gem with 16 parry rating is equal to 24 stamina, as that's how the gems are budget. Reality is gems are continuing the pattern set up in BC, and they aren't budgeted as gear is currently. There is also diminishing returns on dodge, where stamina doesn't. continuation or not, that's what you are working with unless you happened to find the ellusive pattern for a +20parry rating gem. now since you clearly aren't advocating an EH set, more a balanced set. i just like to point this out gladiator+2x16doge rating=30stam+32dodge rating (since you don't use the resilience) hodir+2x24stam=48stam+20dodge rating+15def rating i'd say it's pretty clear who ended up with the most stats.



I also didn't say you should rely on resilience to get crit immune - I said it's not ideal as you're giving up avoidance. You can be crit immune without avoidance, but you're going to take significantly more hits as a result.


though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.
i'm not a native english speaker, but baseline in my book=absolute minimum therefor i can only conclude that you did say to not rely on resilience to get crit immune.


EH relies on health, avoidance and mitigation. Magical EH relies on... health. The commonality of health (hitpoints, stamina, etc.) is why stacking stamina is often employed. I'm not supporting that you ignore defense/avoidance, but realize that you can get to a solid level of avoidance and just start stacking health. I can see someone getting a lot of health, but the sheer lack of avoidance means that you'll take significantly more hits and be reliant on healers keeping you alive.
as far as i'm concerned EH is health and mitigation or the biggest hit you can take without dieing, avoidance doesn't come in to play there.
and i'm not even sure what the healer comment is about, you mean you tank ulduar without healers?


*facepalm* Why do I suspect said hunter's pet will also be a 51pt BM Spec exotic pet? Frankly, BoKings can be assumed in a 10 man as it requires a single class to be present, regardless of spec. You can assume a druid or hunter will be in a 10 man, but you can't assume how they're spent talent points. (If you get nitpicky, a lot of talented buffs/debuffs have a similar but baseline versions. Warlock Curse of Elements, for example, is a baseline version of boomkin's Earth and Moon and unholy DK's Ebonplague Bringer)
i'm happy you agree with me, you say you can assume a hunter is present and i'm pretty sure i can assume he learned Scorpid Sting - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=3043#taught-by-npc) and i know he will lose dps from it, but when the 3xx hp from gladiator enchant starts counting i'm pretty sure i'll be in a situation where i value 3%miss over some dps
(http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=3043#comments)

Ieatpugs
06-13-2009, 03:11 AM
I wouldn't assume the 3% miss in any raid, it's a serious dps loss for either class, with minimal gains for your tanks.

Durandro
06-13-2009, 03:24 AM
The issue is that Resilience when you are at 540 def is completely wasted.

Not completely wasted, as it still reduces DoT's on you (ever so slightly).

Which is why for a while I was considering if it would be worth gearing for Death Knight pvp tanking. Though ultimately it probably wouldn't be be all that great - but a little resilience isn't a terrible thing.

Satorri
06-13-2009, 05:22 AM
Ieatpugs, you're clearly confused about how tanking works, ha ha. 3% miss is a lot more than a little bump for tank survival, and it's not a huge loss in dps, though it's bigger for some than others.

The balance is always key:
1.) Tank surviving long enough for your dps to kill the target, and surviving well enough to be healed through the beating.
2.) Healers having the big enough healing output to counter the incoming damage, and having the regen to be able to do so long enough for the DPS to kill the target.
3.) DPS being able to put out enough damage to kill the target before the healers run out of mana or the tank runs out of survival tools and dies to the full beating.

The 3 roles are intrinsically linked. If the dps does 100 dps less out of 50k total even 1k dps less (hyperbole and not at all the cost of switching 1 serpent sting to 1 scorpid sting), but the tank takes 3% less damage and/or has a 6% reduced chance to get hit twice in a row, your dps has plenty more time to do the killing.

Scorpid Sting and Insect Swarm reduce the hit chances by 3%. Insect Swarm is standard operating procedure by Boomkins, if you don't have one then asking one of your hunters to use Scorpid Sting should be a very small deal, I can only really imagine it reducing a MM hunter's damage by a noticeable amount through Chimera Shot. If you have no hunters or boomkin then you get no buff. =( Same as not having a Disc Priest or Protadin for 3% damage reduction on everyone (Vigilance has a cost, and is single target only, but you could count the Prot Warriors in there too).


Oh, and Durandro, yeah I remember talking about that with you. If you check your logs the actual DoT damage you take in a raid is less than 5% of your total depending on what you do and what you get stuck in. I've looked at that for the sake of figuring out the value on Spell Deflection (which only applies to non-DoT magic damage).

Esch
06-13-2009, 10:49 AM
continuation or not, that's what you are working with unless you happened to find the ellusive pattern for a +20parry rating gem. now since you clearly aren't advocating an EH set, more a balanced set. i just like to point this out gladiator+2x16doge rating=30stam+32dodge rating (since you don't use the resilience) hodir+2x24stam=48stam+20dodge rating+15def rating i'd say it's pretty clear who ended up with the most stats.

Two Problems - First, please compare gems of equal level. At the moment, a 20 parry gem is epic, but so is the 20 dodge gem. Again, dodge trumps. I'm pointing out that gem budgeting is following a trend instead of a strict budget system that we see on most armor.

You are getting away from the shoulder enchants, however, by stacking gems. So, here's math purely on shoulders:

30 Stamina is 363 hitpoints (BoKings, Frost Presence) for a DK. A Blood DK specifically would have 385 hit points (384.78 exact)
20 Dodge/15 Defense is .508%+.366% = .874% avoidance (ignoring diminishing returns). (Data from tables in Satrina's Formula's post (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41907-frequently-asked-questions.html))



i'm not a native english speaker, but baseline in my book=absolute minimum therefor i can only conclude that you did say to not rely on resilience to get crit immune.You can use resilience to get crit immune. I feel very strongly against relying on resilience if you can use defense and get avoidance as well. Again, math comparison:

10 Resilience Rating = .12% reduction in critical chance (Also gives .24% reduction in critical hit damage)
10 Defense Rating = 2.033 Defense Skill = .08% reduction in critical chance, plus .24% avoidance (dodge/parry/miss).

So, you can get critical chance negated vs level 83 bosses with far less resilience (460 according to Satrina), but you give up 11.2% avoidance in the process.


as far as i'm concerned EH is health and mitigation or the biggest hit you can take without dieing, avoidance doesn't come in to play there.
and i'm not even sure what the healer comment is about, you mean you tank ulduar without healers?The larger your health pool, the less you are reliant on the RNG (random number generation, aka 'chance') of avoidance. You can afford to take hits, and healers don't have to completely heal you constantly. To paraphrase Horacio, facing a boss doing 25k hits:

Tank with 36K health -> reduced to 11k remaining, needs 14k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 42K health -> reduced to 17k remaining, needs 8k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 48K health -> reduced to 23k remaining, needs 2k healing to avoid dying next hit.

That significant reduction in how much healing you need 'immediately' eases pressure on healers. They don't need to panic spam heals, get your health to full before the next hit, and offer some leeway to lag/latency/timing of heals as they are cast.

The bonus of avoidance is you take zero damage if you dodge/parry or are missed. No healing required. Problem is, you will get hit, and getting hit quickly twice will kill most tanks in Ulduar.


i'm happy you agree with me, you say you can assume a hunter is present and i'm pretty sure i can assume he learned Scorpid Sting - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=3043#taught-by-npc) and i know he will lose dps from it, but when the 3xx hp from gladiator enchant starts counting i'm pretty sure i'll be in a situation where i value 3%miss over some dps
(http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=3043#comments)That 3% miss is like all other avoidance, a random variable. You can stack avoidance and rely on not taking hits, but at some point, you will get hit. You will get hit again. Whether or not you have the hit points (or heals) to offset that damage will determine if you survive. Unless you can hit 100% avoidance, getting hit multiple times is a given, the question is whether your health/healing is adequate to keep you alive through the hits.

The crux of your argument wazdaa, is that avoidance trumps stamina. Problem is, avoidance is a chance to avoid damage, and a series of unavoided hits will kill tanks. Having more health is a method to negate the chances of being killed, which is why the Gladiator enchant has significant merit.

wazdaa
06-13-2009, 11:48 AM
Two Problems - First, please compare gems of equal level. At the moment, a 20 parry gem is epic, but so is the 20 dodge gem. Again, dodge trumps. I'm pointing out that gem budgeting is following a trend instead of a strict budget system that we see on most armor.
the 20 parry gem was sarcasm. hence the 'elusive'


30 Stamina is 363 hitpoints (BoKings, Frost Presence) for a DK. A Blood DK specifically would have 385 hit points (384.78 exact)
20 Dodge/15 Defense is .508%+.366% = .874% avoidance (ignoring diminishing returns). (Data from tables in Satrina's Formula's post (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41907-frequently-asked-questions.html))

point being?


You can use resilience to get crit immune. I feel very strongly against relying on resilience if you can use defense and get avoidance as well. Again, math comparison:

10 Resilience Rating = .12% reduction in critical chance (Also gives .24% reduction in critical hit damage)
10 Defense Rating = 2.033 Defense Skill = .08% reduction in critical chance, plus .24% avoidance (dodge/parry/miss).

So, you can get critical chance negated vs level 83 bosses with far less resilience (460 according to Satrina), but you give up 11.2% avoidance in the process.
we're talking about the 15resilience rating from shoulders, not about getting all crit immunity from resilience. just wearing tanking gear will get you pretty close to 540defense if not 540defense before you even start enchanting/gemming



The larger your health pool, the less you are reliant on the RNG (random number generation, aka 'chance') of avoidance. You can afford to take hits, and healers don't have to completely heal you constantly. To paraphrase Horacio, facing a boss doing 25k hits:

Tank with 36K health -> reduced to 11k remaining, needs 14k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 42K health -> reduced to 17k remaining, needs 8k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 48K health -> reduced to 23k remaining, needs 2k healing to avoid dying next hit.
which healer heals for 2k to start with and which tank healer isn't spamming that heal button in the first place? 2nd what's the difference all 3 will die next hit if they don't get healed, so unless you bring it to the point where you can survive 2hits (in this example) i really don't see the benifit from one over the other. 3rd the difference between my EH and avoidance set is like 6-7k hp not even close to the 12k hp displayed in your example.


That 3% miss is like all other avoidance, a random variable. You can stack avoidance and rely on not taking hits, but at some point, you will get hit. You will get hit again. Whether or not you have the hit points (or heals) to offset that damage will determine if you survive. Unless you can hit 100% avoidance, getting hit multiple times is a given, the question is whether your health/healing is adequate to keep you alive through the hits.
i don't even understand why you are arguing about this 3%, you saying you don't have it applied in raid bc it's just a chance that comes at the cost of some dps (if even any dps at all)?



The crux of your argument wazdaa, is that avoidance trumps stamina. Problem is, avoidance is a chance to avoid damage, and a series of unavoided hits will kill tanks. Having more health is a method to negate the chances of being killed, which is why the Gladiator enchant has significant merit. where did i say avoidance trumps stamina? i'm just saying you are being inconsistent at one point you are making stamina the all end stat and at the other side you'd rather get to 540def then stack some extra stamina bc else you'd lose like 0.3-0.4% (i didn't even bother to calculate it sue me)
personally i still use an avoidance set and an EH set and use em when they are best suited.

Dragaan
06-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Ieatpugs, you're clearly confused about how tanking works, ha ha. 3% miss is a lot more than a little bump for tank survival, and it's not a huge loss in dps, though it's bigger for some than others.

I'd have to actually agree with Ieatpugs. You shouldn't assume a debuff will ALWAYS be present. In some fights, the dps has to get every boost they possibly can and the healers/tanks just have to suck it up if their job is made a bit harder. I guess it depends on what kind of raiding you are doing though. Not every guild has to min/max like that. It seems like the OP of the thread has just started with ulduar, where ieatpugs looks like he has most of the 25man hardmodes done already.

Esch
06-13-2009, 12:46 PM
which healer heals for 2k to start with and which tank healer isn't spamming that heal button in the first place? 2nd what's the difference all 3 will die next hit if they don't get healed, so unless you bring it to the point where you can survive 2hits (in this example) i really don't see the benifit from one over the other. 3rd the difference between my EH and avoidance set is like 6-7k hp not even close to the 12k hp displayed in your example.

There's a huge difference between needing 2k healing over two seconds and needing 20k healing. Having additional health gives a larger buffer to soak damage and reduce the risk that the damage spike exceeds the healers' ability to save you.

Frankly, the idea of having 6K+ difference between avoidance and EH sets is... strange to me, unless you're a druid. I think I have ~2k difference, but I also adjust my tanking gear depending on my role.



Where did i say avoidance trumps stamina? i'm just saying you are being inconsistent at one point you are making stamina the all end stat and at the other side you'd rather get to 540def then stack some extra stamina bc else you'd lose like 0.3-0.4% (i didn't even bother to calculate it sue me)

personally i still use an avoidance set and an EH set and use em when they are best suited.Stamina is that good, however, as it always works. Avoidance does fail, and when it does, you either have the health to survive or you don't. I think that something is failing in the translation at this point :(

Lizana
06-13-2009, 07:05 PM
But how often will you fail by less than 380 hp? vs. How often will that extra dodge/parry/miss save you...

ttocs
06-13-2009, 09:10 PM
The age-old EH vs Avoidance argument.

There's merit to both, but if you use one, be open to the other. I've stacked EH for progressing on normal Ulduar encounters. I'm putting together a set with significantly more avoidance for some Hard Modes. Steelbreaker last is one (though I can probably do it with just IBF). Vezax hard mode is another. I'm hearing Algalon is going to also require Brutallus-style gearing.

Bottom line is, for some of these encounters, you'll likely be 2-shot no matter the health. Unless you're able to get somewhere around 60K health raid buffed, you're probably going to want to put some avoidance in there.

RNG or not (remember, this is a game of dice rolls), you can tilt the scales more in your favor.

Dhalphir
06-13-2009, 09:22 PM
Good points both Esch and Wazdaa.

I do stand by my point that the total attribution of the dodge+parry wins on net value, the more important question is what is most valuable to your character.

Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable. The health is not as valuable to me for that particular slot as the dodge+def is. Also, if you are a scribe it is a no brainer, the self-only master shoulder inscription blows the stam out of the water. WTB scribe shoulder enchant for stamina.

Whether or not the Gladiator inscription keeps you defense capped is irrelevant as 15 resil provides more uncrittability than 15 defense rating.

Dragaan
06-13-2009, 10:08 PM
But how often will you fail by less than 380 hp? vs. How often will that extra dodge/parry/miss save you...

/sigh

Dhalphir
06-13-2009, 10:19 PM
Exactly, its all a moot point, and the differences between the two are minute enough thats it really comes down to whether you'd rather admire your high avoidance figures or admire a bit of extra HP. :D

ttocs
06-13-2009, 11:05 PM
Scorpid Sting and Insect Swarm reduce the hit chances by 3%. Insect Swarm is standard operating procedure by Boomkins, if you don't have one...
<snip>


A lot of boomkins glyph insect swarm, which increases damage by 30% but removes the 3% miss component.

Satorri
06-14-2009, 06:19 AM
The only responsible team players who do that only do it because they've spoken with their team and someone else will be applying the increased miss chance buff.

If a boomkin is removing that at the detriment to the team just to increase their damage a little, that's a poor team player.