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Ashiki
06-10-2009, 04:01 AM
I spent a while looking through the forums and seemed suprised that no one has actually posted anything a long the same lines as this. It's not like im new to the game and I understand the mechanics of many classes but this seems a bit odd for no one to mention it at all.

Although I normally DPS I done quite a lot of research on frost tanking and found out the rotation / macro'ing rune strike to OB / BS and a proper spec (which im currently messing around with to see how my threat changes), but there is always a problem with my GCD on runes.

I go through PS/IT/BS/BS/OB but then when it comes to dumping my runic power I can only get off one Frost Strike due to my runestrikes taking it all. This leaves me sitting there on CD just doing white damage which changes my threat from say 6k down to around 4k and then I can start spamming OB x3 and then it obviously happens again. I can't seem to find anyone else having this problem (unless its meant to happen) and it seems lots of people are worried about capping their RP which I struggle to do xD let alone have a problem with. Some feedback would be nice,

Thanks.

Ash

wazdaa
06-10-2009, 04:19 AM
take 2/3 SoB and problem is solved

Ashiki
06-10-2009, 04:37 AM
take 2/3 SoB and problem is solved

I can't get on armory myself from this PC, I was just wondering where you would switch talent points from and too? and any extra tips you could give me to maximise threat?

wazdaa
06-10-2009, 07:07 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Emeriss&n=Ashiki&group=2) guess this is you

for one bladed armour>2handed weapon spec so fill out bladed armour at the cost of 2handed weapon spec

one option is going for a it>ob>ob>bs it>ob>ob>bs rotation making the points in epidemic obsolete. if that rotation isn't an option epidemic is a must have.

D&D i'd take points out, frost has enough aoe power to not having to rely on D&D.

so either ending up with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EdZhxx0AbI0s0iost0g) when keeping epidemic you could try and see if 1/3 SoB gives you enough rp and take 2/2 2h weapon spec but i think sooner or later 1/3 isn't gonna cut it bc of increased rs spam when you gear get's better so you'll probably might aswell just start right away with 2/3

or

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0ErZhxx0AbI0s0iost0x) when skipping epidemic (has 1 spare talent point)

for the rest try to FS as much as possible on KM-procs, but guess that isn't something new :P

Chamenas
06-10-2009, 07:14 AM
This is a bit anecdotal, but if you check out my armory, I seem to be able to pull and keep threat just fine. Well... the pull threat could be a bit better but I often can tank aggro from the MT when I'm the OT if I just sit back and pull my rotation correctly (IT, PS, BS, BS, OS, FS, OS, ... (with Rune Strike mixed in as applicable)). I don't have epidemic but I do have the DnD talent. A lot of people say "AoE in Frost is fine without DnD all the time" but I have found from experience that having DnD when I need it is a great tool. HB is great for snap aggro, but DnD will help you get quite a bit in building threat on a group.

Still working on a group pull rotation, though I'm thinking DnD, HB, IT, PS, Pest will work best.

Edit: My suggest: Move the points from Epidemic to Scent of Blood if you find you really need SoB, I see little reason to discount Morbidity unless you don't plan on AoE tanking, but that's just me.

Vanthus
06-10-2009, 07:26 AM
As people said, I would move some Morbidity points over to Scent of Blood.
You can also use Horn of Winter in those down times to at least get another 10 RP, so that on the next rotation you don't have that issue.

This won't solve your particular issue, but you could overlook the Scent of Blood and move points into Subversion or Dark Conviction too, or fill out Bladed Armor, etc. At least you would have higher threat the rest of the time.

Ashiki
06-10-2009, 07:49 AM
Cheers for the helpful responses, I'll have a look into all of that. I'm not actually a guild tank, im a DPS but I'm used to tank things like Auriaya (due to the easy pull with DnD) and General Vezax just cos of the CDs I have (as our DK tank is currently inactive and we have no replacement). So I may consider dropping the DnD talent as like you said popping a DnD is really only really needed for maybe an initial pull and the extended CD wouldn't really make a difference.
Also just a quick question, was doing some looking around with expertise / dodge / parry. I didnt go digging to much into the numbers as im not going to kid myself about knowing what it all means. But in simple terms. Is it worth gemming full expertise till the soft cap, or am I fine where I am at the moment? and with dodge/parry I get confused on which one is better and what I should be looking for on gear, I read that parry will increase our weapon speed (but only viable due to us having 2H's) and obviously dodge is dodge. But is dodge as good for DK as it is for a Warrior compared to parry?

Vanthus
06-10-2009, 08:08 AM
Expertise and hit rating have the same benefit to tanks as they do to DPS for increasing threat.
For tanks, expertise also reduces the number of times a boss will parry you, which is important because parry hasted attacks from a boss could kill you.
Numbers wise most tanks go for the soft cap in expertise and the melee hit cap to get rid of all dodges and misses.
Not being at the spell hit cap or parry expertise cap, are just risks most of us tanks take in order to have more avoidance or stamina, and are in many cases not even necessary for someone who is just an OT.

What expertise are you at? You logged out in DPS gear.

Chamenas
06-10-2009, 08:10 AM
Also just a quick question, was doing some looking around with expertise / dodge / parry. I didnt go digging to much into the numbers as im not going to kid myself about knowing what it all means. But in simple terms. Is it worth gemming full expertise till the soft cap, or am I fine where I am at the moment? and with dodge/parry I get confused on which one is better and what I should be looking for on gear, I read that parry will increase our weapon speed (but only viable due to us having 2H's) and obviously dodge is dodge. But is dodge as good for DK as it is for a Warrior compared to parry?

General rule of thumb is Dodge > Parry. Look around and you'll find that everywhere. Looking in some recent threads, the math behind it supports Dodge in initial avoidance bonus and after diminished returns, gear also seems to favor dodge over parry.

If you're just an off-the-side tank, threat that you get from expertise may not be a major issue. Threat is important at two points: The initial pull and "down the stretch". The initial pull threat isn't often decided by being parried, or dodged (which is what expertise covers), so long as you have a decent hit rating you will be fine. This isn't to say you shouldn't go for expertise, but if you're only barely a tank you may want avoidance more in order to make up for the lack of hp you likely have.

Just my two cents.

Ashiki
06-10-2009, 08:32 AM
As I said earlier, I cant get on armory so I didnt know what gear I logged out in. Off the top of my head I know I Have around 18 expertise, 28-29% dodge, 15-16% parry, 320 hit rating. I have T8.5 2 piece and T7.5 2 piece, so my gear isn't lacking to badly, and just below 32k unbuffed HP.

Im guessing its worth bringing that expertise to 26? but stat wise ive been looking around and I think my dodge/parry is on par wiht most tanks, and im over hit soft cap by 60 or so but thats just due to the gear I have.

Edit: All my gems are 24stam at the moment aswell, and I also dont have 2% threat on gloves as an enchant!

Molohk
06-10-2009, 08:55 AM
I had the same dilema when I switched from my warrior to my DK, because I was used to using every single GCD as a warrior, until I learned to accept that frost DK rotations are locked by rune generation, not GCDs. In the end, you may have to consider the fact that frost tanks do have empty GCDs, no matter what.

An important element is Rime/KM management. Rime will help you fill in some of the empty GCDs. You can also make a few tweaks to your spec that will improve your tps, but that probably won't in filling out your GCDs. As said above, morbidity is kind of useless for frost, because you don't use death coil, and you never cast back-to-back DnD, so you can place those 3 points into SoB for a bit more RP.

Keep in mind a lot of the "I have too much RP" chatter comes from Blood tanks, because most of their rotations are based on spamming a single-rune ability, so it takes more GCDs for them to complete a rotation cycle.

Chamenas
06-10-2009, 12:00 PM
As I said earlier, I cant get on armory so I didnt know what gear I logged out in. Off the top of my head I know I Have around 18 expertise, 28-29% dodge, 15-16% parry, 320 hit rating. I have T8.5 2 piece and T7.5 2 piece, so my gear isn't lacking to badly, and just below 32k unbuffed HP.

Im guessing its worth bringing that expertise to 26? but stat wise ive been looking around and I think my dodge/parry is on par wiht most tanks, and im over hit soft cap by 60 or so but thats just due to the gear I have.

Edit: All my gems are 24stam at the moment aswell, and I also dont have 2% threat on gloves as an enchant!

Your gear sounds fine as it is. Toss on that chant and leave it at that. No reason to replace the stam with expertise, to be honest, if you're only OTing.

Satorri
06-10-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm stunned this hasn't been mentioned yet...

Rather than changing your spec, you can fill those gaps with the use of Blood Tap and/or ERW. Using these two abilities smartly can boost your threat and keep you from those awkward moments where you have nothing to do but auto-attack. That said, you should only see those moments in your first couple rune sets. If you're RS'ing too much otherwise you won't need to worry about threat.

Chamenas
06-10-2009, 05:12 PM
I'm stunned this hasn't been mentioned yet...

Rather than changing your spec, you can fill those gaps with the use of Blood Tap and/or ERW. Using these two abilities smartly can boost your threat and keep you from those awkward moments where you have nothing to do but auto-attack. That said, you should only see those moments in your first couple rune sets. If you're RS'ing too much otherwise you won't need to worry about threat.

*shrugs* I didn't mention them, but a lot of people do use them. As I said, I never generally have issues with threat as it is so I'm not bothered by a second or two of "nothing".

Feanorr
06-10-2009, 06:14 PM
First, according to the frost dps post on EJ, you got a better DPS with a one disease rotation as frost; it should be true for TPS too. So you could sacrifice one of your glyph to get the HB glyph and use the frost DPS rotation (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t59946-frozen_blows_frost_dps_please_read_op/) (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t59946-frozen_blows_frost_dps_please_read_op/), or use IT instead of HB. With this kind of rotation you dont need Epidemic so it's 2 point that you can put into Scent of blood.

Second, when I am frost tanking I use FS only when RM proc or when I am at full RP. This way, I always got enough RP for RS or a CD.

It doesnt really answer your "no free rune" problem but with a 2-rune rotation like frost, I think it's inevitable.


About, it doesnt hurt, but I am not sure it worth gemming for it as frost; most of your main skill doesnt use it: HB, FS and RS. It's only good for OB and BS.

sillypuddy
06-10-2009, 07:53 PM
i don't want to make a new thread, but i am a frost tank and was wondering which would be a better sigil since im already def capped without sigil of unfaltering knight, sigil of vengeful heart or sigil of awareness?

Feanorr
06-11-2009, 07:21 AM
Vengefull heart I think; it's a lot better for frost DPS, so even if frost tank cant FS as much as frost DPS, I still think it worst it.

Sitharien
06-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Vengefull heart I think; it's a lot better for frost DPS, so even if frost tank cant FS as much as frost DPS, I still think it worst it.


I think you meant "worth it", but to give you a break down, Rune Strike should be your top Threat generating ability, no matter what TPS parser you use. Also, you are rarely going to be able to spam Frost Strike as often as you can spam Obliterate as Frost, which should solidify Obliterate as your second most threat generating ability over the course of any boss fight. Also, in addition to Rune Strike just eating a lot of RP not leaving a lot left for Frost Strikes, being in Frost Presence while tanking also doesn"t leave you with a lot of spare CDs to use Frost Strike on anyways. There is no way I could recommend a Frost Strike buff over an Obliterate buff for tanking purposes. Sigil of Awareness > Sigil of the Vengeful Heart for Frost tanking...

GravityDK
06-11-2009, 01:36 PM
To the OP, it is also common in some rotations to have a 'pause' while you just auto-attack. The worst case is an AOE where you open with DnD, then use the remaining 3 runes, then have a wait afterwards.

It's not often mentioned but it does happen, and it's normal.
You can use ERW or Tap, of course, but if you can't / don't want to, ... you autoattack.

sillypuddy
06-11-2009, 10:17 PM
thanks for the input

Ashiki
06-12-2009, 08:12 AM
Just wanna say thanks for all the input, I respec'd and also used my Blood Tap / ERW when I was sitting around with nothing to do. I was managing to pull between 7.5k - 9/10k threat last night :)

Satorri
06-12-2009, 01:25 PM
Sweet, glad that helped. =)

Antemortem
06-12-2009, 04:37 PM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Emeriss&n=Ashiki&group=2) guess this is you

for one bladed armour>2handed weapon spec so fill out bladed armour at the cost of 2handed weapon spec

one option is going for a it>ob>ob>bs it>ob>ob>bs rotation making the points in epidemic obsolete. if that rotation isn't an option epidemic is a must have.

D&D i'd take points out, frost has enough aoe power to not having to rely on D&D.

so either ending up with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EdZhxx0AbI0s0iost0g) when keeping epidemic you could try and see if 1/3 SoB gives you enough rp and take 2/2 2h weapon spec but i think sooner or later 1/3 isn't gonna cut it bc of increased rs spam when you gear get's better so you'll probably might aswell just start right away with 2/3

or

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0ErZhxx0AbI0s0iost0x) when skipping epidemic (has 1 spare talent point)

for the rest try to FS as much as possible on KM-procs, but guess that isn't something new :P

I have to disagree with no DnD as frost. It's your number one threat ability next to RS, why wouldn't you use it for AoE? Also I kept morbidity (because I only AoE tank as frost).

Rotation typically goes:
DnD > HB > BB > FS dump > HB > OB > BB > BB > FS dump

Satorri
06-13-2009, 05:02 AM
The message is not to never DnD as Frost, it's that Morbidity can easily be a waste (not that people don't take it, and sometimes use it) as Frost. You will not DC, FS is a much better spend of your RP. So all Morbidity will do is allow you to DnD on CD. That is not (always/often) the best way to spend your runes and *not* your best potential for threat, per se. It is your next highest threat ability, I assume you've identified and are not just guessing, because you use it often? Glyphed even?

Quick question with math to follow, how much does your DnD hit for, and how much does your HB and BB hit for?

(If your setup is strong, DnD will usually be the same or slightly more threat, but spread over 10 sec, while using your other moves will get you a big burst of threat along with almost double the RP)

Antemortem
06-14-2009, 01:49 PM
All of this data is from the group of 3 dummies at Ebon Hold, one disease (frost fever) with glyphed DnD.

DnD ticks for (no FF): 855
DnD ticks for: 985

HB hits for: 5300
HB crits for: 12000 (3 crits)

BB hits for: 2250
BB crits for: 3100 (1 crit)

The reason I say DnD is the most threat next to RS, is because of the 10 sec spread. The DnD > HB (glyphed with deathchill) open gives a very nice threat lead over the DPS. Then while your waiting for the next HB, DnD is still ticking building up threat.

Oh, and I only use DnD once per pack. I took Morbidity for no downtime in between pulls, seeing as how i use it as an AoE only setup.

phaze
06-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Glyph of HB (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45806) has removed my need for dropping DnD on most pulls. There are a few cases where I still use DnD, but for standard pulls I'm perfectly happy opening with HB -> BB for AE threat purposes. I find it to be a more flexible opener too, since DnD eats up one of each rune.

GravityDK
06-14-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm a big fan of HB glyph -> BB too. I kinda miss Frost and that spec with my current setup.

Satorri
06-15-2009, 03:31 PM
So from your numbers, if you get no crits from HB, BB, or DnD (though you have a much better chance of being able to crit HB than the rest, especially if you force it on the open with Deathchill):

DnD (=BFU) = 9850 dmg total (38.8k threat) over 10 sec, gens 15 rp, and puts 3 runes on instant 10 sec CD (8.5 sec to spend 3 runes leftover is blackout).

HB (FU) + BB (B) = 7550 dmg total (15.7k threat) in 2 CDs or 1.5 sec, gens 25 rp (30 with CotG), and staggers the rune CDs (7 sec to cast your remaining 3 runes, leftover is blackout)


(Bear in mind I'm not advocating always one over the other, just want numbers to be clear for those considering the values) So, DnD is a lot more threat directly for the cast, though the value is decreased by 10% for every tick the target misses by not being in DnD (for walking into or out of it). DnD generates less RP and gives you one more CD in blackout if everything is ideal (latency eats CDs). HB+BB delivers a bit less than 50% of that threat, but does it in the first 1.5 sec that DnD would be ticking. It generates twice as much RP depending on your spec, and gives you one less CD in blackout.

The nuance is usually logistics of movement and positioning, how you apply things, and the big-money item: timing. I've been meaning to write up a short essay on this, as it applies to both healing and tanking, but most of the time WHEN the threat (heals) are delivered is more important than the average you run overall.

If you glyph HB, how's this for powerhouse AoE threat (and a fat blackout): DnD, HB, BB, Blood Tap+BB, /laugh. In the first 4 casts, 6 secs of GCD, you get 43.6j threat (with 4 ticks of DnD still to go), 55 RP (talented) to turn into fat FS's, and it'll hit unlimited targets in a 10 yrd footprint.

I'm a little surprised your BB's are so big, I'm not sure what that is from as Frost, I haven't seen BB's that big with Unholy or Blood.

phaze
06-16-2009, 07:11 AM
HB+BB delivers a bit less than 50% of that threat, but does it in the first 1.5 sec that DnD would be ticking. It generates twice as much RP depending on your spec, and gives you one less CD in blackout.

That's the reason I prefer the HB+BB opener. Also, with the HB glyph, you'll have FF ticking for additional threat. That makes this opener very attractive for both burst and sustained damage/threat. And as you mentioned: if you need more oomph for that pull, you can trigger Deathchill to guarantee the crit boost.

For groups that have high health (and they'll be alive long enough to care), I also like to open up with PS and Pest, and then keep both diseases rolling on all the mobs for the entire fight with Pest. I have the Pestilence glyph to make this convenient on my current target; no worrying on if I hit them all that way. But that's more of a preference thing, and may not actually be absolute-max threat. Good enough for my purposes, though.



WHEN the threat (heals) are delivered is more important than the average you run overall.

Always important to keep that in mind: the need for initial threat often trumps the tradeoff for max long-term threat.

Tankkin
06-16-2009, 08:42 AM
k im no mathematician but im sure in this case since it sounds good and ive tested it and it works well, the numbers should be good too.
Best opening threat gen:
deathchill, dnd, hb (with glyph of hb), blood tap, ps, erw, ob, ob, bs, bs, frost strikes with rune strikes mixed in when procced

also in regards to the runic power problem, have u got glyph of icy touch? didnt check ur spec but if u dont have chill of the grave for more runic power production thats half ur problem, sob works well too, also for frost tank rotation i find only one point is need in epidemic, been frost since day one.

Molohk
06-16-2009, 08:53 AM
If you glyph HB, how's this for powerhouse AoE threat (and a fat blackout): DnD, HB, BB, Blood Tap+BB, /laugh. In the first 4 casts, 6 secs of GCD, you get 43.6j threat (with 4 ticks of DnD still to go), 55 RP (talented) to turn into fat FS's, and it'll hit unlimited targets in a 10 yrd footprint.

That's exactly my AoE opener, the blackout is pretty fat, but the ammount of threat is insane. It's incredibly simple yet powerful, AoE doesn't really get much easier than that.

Tankkin
06-16-2009, 09:05 AM
That's exactly my AoE opener, the blackout is pretty fat, but the ammount of threat is insane. It's incredibly simple yet powerful, AoE doesn't really get much easier than that.

*blush
oops, sorry didnt mean to sound like a copycat, been doing that opener since i figured it out as an opener for malygos ages ago, didnt read all posts, thought thisd be a nice place to post it, u beat me to it :(

Kurtosis
06-18-2009, 10:19 PM
That's exactly my AoE opener, the blackout is pretty fat, but the ammount of threat is insane. It's incredibly simple yet powerful, AoE doesn't really get much easier than that.
Exactly my opener for group pulls too. Mobs stick to me like tar after that, till they're all dead.

Fathom
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
While I admit that D&D>HB>BB>BT>BB is a pretty huge chunk of burst threat to dump on a pack, am I the only one for whom it seems kind of overkill? I'm leery about using that many cd right at the beginning of the pull, especially so many of the cds (like D&D) that I rely on having in reserve in case something goes off the rails (misjudging the range on HB or BB, accidental pulls, etc.).

On top of that, it's almostly exclusively possible on packs where all the mobs are present at the beginning of the pull and are reasonably grouped together, which are generally the easiest kind of group pulls for Frost in the first place. For pulls where the mobs spawns are staggered (the type of pull I find Frost handling worst), that approach leaves you without any of your emergency threat buttons.

I find IT>Pest>HB>BB rolling into IT>PS>Pest>HB>BB is sustainable, easily enough frontloaded threat, and still leaves you with your emergency buttons.

On a slightly related note, I'm a firm believer that the HB glyph is a bad choice for Frost tanks. It's somewhat nice for AoE pulls, but the single disease howling blast rotation isn't as viable a threat rotation as it is a dps rotation. It trades RP for more mileage from your runes and additional rime procs, which is fine for dps when you're trading one good dps ability (FS) for another (Oblit/HB), but for tanking builds you're trading RS and FS for more Oblits. Additionally, as a tank you won't have access to either the T7 or T8 dps 4 piece bonuses (that replace lost RP, and improve Oblit respectively) that help make the rotation worthwhile for DPS. Similarly, you'll be getting less mileage out of the T8 2 piece bonus, and either of the higher end sigils (Deflection or Vengeful Heart).

Molohk
06-23-2009, 04:04 PM
While I do sometimes save BT in *some* cases, I am not convinced at all by using DnD as a cooldown, first of all it costs 3 runes which means that most likely you won't have it instantly available when you need it, and secondly it doesn't have any direct (as oposed to DoT) threat which means it's probably not going to save you if you need threat as an emergency. What I like about DnD>HB>BB is that it makes perfect use of all your runes, while IT>Pest>HB>BB leaves an Unholy rune unused (wasted runes make me sad).

Regarding your side note. A 20 second single-target cycle with glyph of HB produces 120 RP, while the same cycle without the glyph produces 125 RP. I doubt 5 RP every 20 seconds will make a significant impact on the number of RS or on a tank's ability to hold aggro, and the 5 RP are easily compensated by using HB/OB instead of IT+PS. I don't have the math handy, but I can say from experience that getting the glyph (I ditched the glyph of RS) did not decrease my single-target threat noticeably but it did make trash pulls much easier, faster and more fun.

In the end I think it's a choice of play-styles, because I really don't think there's enough evidence to state the glyph of HB is bad for tanking, and I personally love my glyph because it makes trash a bit more fun (less of a PITA?) and it allows me to pay less attention on my diseases and more on other elements.

Fathom
06-23-2009, 04:46 PM
Regarding your side note. A 20 second single-target cycle with glyph of HB produces 120 RP, while the same cycle without the glyph produces 125 RP. I doubt 5 RP every 20 seconds will make a significant impact on the number of RS or on a tank's ability to hold aggro, and the 5 RP are easily compensated by using HB/OB instead of IT+PS. I don't have the math handy, but I can say from experience that getting the glyph (I ditched the glyph of RS) did not decrease my single-target threat noticeably but it did make trash pulls much easier, faster and more fun.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here, neither of the double disease rotations that I would expect a tank with the HB glyph to use generate 125 RP. Depend on whether you've gone into Chill of the Grave and/or Glyph of IT, it looks to me like you could get up to 165 RP out of a double disease rotation, which is significant difference from 120. Could you layout your thinking there?

Molohk
06-23-2009, 05:12 PM
There are 3 common rotations with the glyph of HB: the single-disease rotation which ommits PS in favor of a smoother rotation (it's viable when you can still hold aggro in spite of the bonus loss in BS and OB); the double-disease rotation which relies on BT to get the 1st OB in the first cycle, after that it becomes a matter of priorities more than rotation; the double-disease rotation that uses IT instead of HB on the first cycle, and then relies on Rime procs to refresh FF, and also turns into a priority based rotation in the second cycle. Personally, I prefer the first option, the rotation is much smoother and single target threat is still very viable.

For the math: I was counting for Chill of the Grave, but not counting Glyph of IT, Scent of Blood, Butchery or Blood Tap. Double diseases for the non-HB cycle, single disease for the HB cycle. The non-HB cycle yields IT+PS+2xBS+4xOB = 15+10+20+80 = 125 RP (135 with glyph of IT); while the HB cycle yields HB+2xBS+4xOB = 20+20+80 = 120 RP. Did I miss something?

Fathom
06-23-2009, 08:54 PM
No you didn't, looking at it again, I had an error in my math. So admittedly, it's not a massive difference at 15 rp, but it's no utterly trivial either.

As for D&D, I think emergency button may have been the wrong way for me to phrase it, more like planned emergency (things like the group spawns in Thorim's arena) where D&D handles picking up the adds so much better than HB or BB, I don't want to have it in my rotation so I don't end up in the 15s gap between it's duration and the CD when I need it. Given that with BT, I'm rarely more than a second or so away from having a BFU rune combination (let alone with ERW as a backup).