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View Full Version : Armor vs Parry +2% Threat



kyle46
06-09-2009, 08:40 AM
I'm an engineer and have access to the 800 armor enchant and was wondering what the community's opinion is on the pros and cons of the two possible enchants.

Tarigar
06-09-2009, 08:44 AM
I generally go for the 2% threat and 10 parry rating. If i were a DK/Druid I would consider the armor more.

The armor would increase your survivability if that's what your looking for.

I am currently using the 15% expertise as I was lacking and wanted to boost it some.

Superspy23
06-09-2009, 10:30 AM
I generally go for the 2% threat and 10 parry rating. If i were a DK/Druid I would consider the armor more.

The armor would increase your survivability if that's what your looking for.

I am currently using the 15% expertise as I was lacking and wanted to boost it some.

So if you don't go over the exp soft cap does that work out to be better threat than +2% threat? What if you're already over the exp soft cap, how does it compare then?

hbombs
06-09-2009, 10:45 AM
I didn't know 800 armor was an option for an engineer. that sounds like a pretty sweet enchant and I would use it on my progression set. Otherwise I use 15 expertise over armsman.

Damonvile
06-09-2009, 10:56 AM
800 armor vrs 2% threat is kind of apples to oranges. You either want/need more survivability or more threat. No one here can tell you what you need.

As for 2% threat or 15 exp. If you're over the soft cap I don't see any way 15 exp will give you more threat than the 2%.

Akeber
06-09-2009, 11:52 AM
The glove enchant is what made me decide not to drop engineering. 800 armor is worth FAR more, for any thank, than 2% threat or 15 exp.

tuffmuffin
06-09-2009, 03:42 PM
800 armor is worth FAR more, for any thank, than 2% threat or 15 exp.
It's subjective. To you it may be the best thing since sliced bread. The 800 armor is fantastic for fights like Vezax where the only damage the tank [should] be taking is melee. It's pathetic on fights like Hodir where the real threat is magic damage

Damonvile hit the nail on the head for this one

Akeber
06-10-2009, 11:36 AM
The vast majority of tank damage in ulduar is big physical hits. Armsman does nothing to mitigate magical damage, so I fail to see how it would be an advantage over 800 armor for frozen blows, fusion puch, flame breaths etc etc.

It's much easier to get 15 expertice from some other place via gems than it is to get an additional 800 armor. Item budget wise, 800 armor> 2% threat and 15 exp.

tuffmuffin
06-10-2009, 01:54 PM
I'll grant you that 800 armor is better item budget than 10 parry rating or 15 expertise, but 2% threat is the real reason people get Armsman which scales so you can't accurately budget it. Also, I never said Armsman was better for magic damage, stop putting words in my mouth; I was pointing out the armor does nothing either. You can always get the 18 Stamina kit from Leatherworking for those fights. As was already established, you either need/want more threat or more survivability. It's subjective so you go with the one you feel like.

Hodir is probably one fight you *should* see how 2% threat would have any sort of advantage over 800 armor seeing how it's the one fight where threat becomes an issue. (Granted I know you can just taunt him back whenever someone pulls aggro, but you should still be doing as much threat as possible)

Regardless, the vast majority of tank damage virtually anywhere is physical. The only real exceptions are fights like the Shade of Aran or Kil'jaeden where the boss is almost always casting a spell, or "twin" fights (AQ40, Sunwell) where one of the twins is pure magic damage. Yes, I know these fights are rare, so the bottom line is Armor is almost always a good choice to get. Especially since threat by and large is a non-issue these days.

Tarigar
06-10-2009, 02:14 PM
So if you don't go over the exp soft cap does that work out to be better threat than +2% threat? What if you're already over the exp soft cap, how does it compare then?

After over expertise soft cap I would prefer the 2% threat.

Vanthus
06-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Which adds more Effective Health? 800 armor or 18 stamina?

Kazeyonoma
06-10-2009, 04:32 PM
depends on your level of gear, but i'm almost possitive the 800 armor will be at WOTLK health pools.

Akeber
06-12-2009, 10:01 AM
Assuming you're averaging 5K tps, a 2% threat increase will net you a whopping gain of 100tps. Personally, between the small amount of parry and paltry threat increase, I've always found armsman to be a lackluster enchant. If I wansn't an engineer, I'd take +20 hit in it's place, but that's just me.

Edgewalker
06-12-2009, 11:06 AM
2% threat will rarely help you in situations where agro is a factor. Almost anything else you can put on your gloves is better.

tuffmuffin
06-12-2009, 12:33 PM
2% threat will rarely help you in situations where agro is a factor. Almost anything else you can put on your gloves is better.
2% is still more net threat than 15 Expertise rating (Unless *maybe* you're under the soft cap), any AP you might get from the Armor, and with the mass amounts of hit on Ulduar gear, 20 hit rating loses its appeal extremely fast. Even naxx gear sets can bring you to the hit cap easily. 18 Stamina does nothing for threat (slightly does for a Paladin), so 20 Agility (my enchant of preference) then becomes the only enchant that may rival 2% threat. Crusher would be the only other enchant, but it's only intent is Threat. I was focusing on more 'tank oriented' enchants
By your same token, 5% from the Glyph of Vigilance wouldn't be enough to make the difference in a situation threat becomes an issue either, but it *does* help. The point of this enchant isn't to give you godly amounts of threat, it's to improve your threat to give you more a buffer before that strong DPSer might pull aggro on a threat sensitive fight. 2% threat will always help to some degree in these situations.

Either way, at the end of the day you go with the enchant you prefer. It's subjective so just because you find an enchant lackluster doesn't mean someone else won't like it for what it's worth to them. Playing Armsman down as such an inferior enchant is getting old.

Edgewalker
06-13-2009, 06:47 AM
2% is still more net threat than 15 Expertise rating (Unless *maybe* you're under the soft cap), any AP you might get from the Armor, and with the mass amounts of hit on Ulduar gear, 20 hit rating loses its appeal extremely fast. Even naxx gear sets can bring you to the hit cap easily. 18 Stamina does nothing for threat (slightly does for a Paladin), so 20 Agility (my enchant of preference) then becomes the only enchant that may rival 2% threat. Crusher would be the only other enchant, but it's only intent is Threat. I was focusing on more 'tank oriented' enchants
By your same token, 5% from the Glyph of Vigilance wouldn't be enough to make the difference in a situation threat becomes an issue either, but it *does* help. The point of this enchant isn't to give you godly amounts of threat, it's to improve your threat to give you more a buffer before that strong DPSer might pull aggro on a threat sensitive fight. 2% threat will always help to some degree in these situations.

Either way, at the end of the day you go with the enchant you prefer. It's subjective so just because you find an enchant lackluster doesn't mean someone else won't like it for what it's worth to them. Playing Armsman down as such an inferior enchant is getting old.



Because it IS an inferior enchant.
In snap agro situations if you aren't expertise or hit capped either of those enchants is better. In pure survival situations +18 stamina is better.
Net threat is never a concern with half decent TPS and half decent tanking.

tuffmuffin
06-13-2009, 05:25 PM
Because it IS an inferior enchant.
In snap agro situations if you aren't expertise or hit capped either of those enchants is better. In pure survival situations +18 stamina is better.
Net threat is never a concern with half decent TPS and half decent tanking.
Could care less about the Stamina because it doesn't belong in a discussion of threat enchants. Moving on, it's commonly known that in a threat set people will generally gear towards capped hit and expertise.

With the abundance of hit rating, the window you would even consider for hit rating is effectively destroyed. 5 of the beginning bosses from Ulduar-25 can net you 193 hit rating from 5 pieces of gear. 5 bosses that PuGs can do without too much trouble. Emblem of Conquest neck, gloves, and belt are loaded with hit. Emblem of Valor bracers, cloak, and ring have hit. The first few bosses in Ulduar-10 have gear with hit. The majority of tank weapons from raids have hit. There's hit food. Sarth-25 legs have a ton of hit, Naxx has several rings, Heritage, and other pieces of gear with hit. Accuracy will give 25 hit rating, a Weapon Chain will give 28. Yellow sockets can give a small boost as well if you want the socket bonus (hit/stam etc.). Warriors can get the crafted gun or the Razorscale-25 gun for some hit as well. All this can be done in PuGs. The hit cap is a complete joke to hit.

This leaves Expertise as the only competition according to you. Tanks get a minimum of 6 expertise from talents. Food can net you another 5. The Malygos-25 pants + trinket and the Freya-10 helm will net you 24 more. Auriaya-25 has a ring with 5 expertise. That's 40 expertise alone from 4 pieces of gear, talents, and food; The expertise hardcap is not hard to get. Malygos-10 and Auriaya-10 both have shields with Expertise, Iron Council-10 has a cloak, Sarth-10 has a cloak and ring. The Emblem of Valor ring has some expertise on it. Naxx has a smattering of gear with expertise on it, Ulduar-25 also has a trash drop Neck. Red sockets can give a small boost as well if you're going for the socket bonus (exp/stam etc.). This is all stuff that can acquired through PuGs, and it ignores anything that might be on Tier gear (Hello Wintergrasp Welfare) or any you may get pending what race you are.

With how easily the hit and expertise caps can be reached, you are then left with choosing AP, Agility, or Armsman as your threat enchant. AP only does threat whereas Agility (threat, armor, dodge) and Armsman (threat, parry) have other benefits, making them more appealing. This leaves you with choosing between Agility and Armsman as your threat enchant.

Either way, Armsman is NOT as inferior as you play it out to be. You can still use hit or expertise but when you don't need them anymore, Armsman then becomes your best threat enchant and Agility becomes your 'balanced' enchant. Yes, threat by and large is still a non-issue, but that doesn't change the fact that many people still want to push out as much threat as they physically can.

With Blizzard's mantra on having all content available to everyone, this is focused to anyone that raids, even from time to time. Yes, I realize there are 'casual' people that don't raid. The hit or expertise enchants may very well be better for them, but that's a smaller body of people than those that do raid to some degree.

Edit: Should probably make it clear this primarily refers to Warriors. Paladins don't particularly need expertise and I'll be the first to say I don't know much about DKs as I could care less about them. Druids should never consider Armsman, but it's still pretty easy to get hit/expertise capped for them.

influxreptile
06-14-2009, 12:04 AM
There is 1 thing though. If you're really min-maxing raid dps the expertise might actually be more valuable as it doesn't just increase your tps but increases your dps aswel, while the 2% threat enchant doesn't benefit your dps.

The expertise grants you a reduction on parry hasted attacks (40 expertise is not the cap even though it's already pretty high) at every boss that has it active, grants you a tps boost not too far off 2% and increases your personal dps while tanking by a decent amount at the same time.

orcstar
06-14-2009, 12:23 AM
There is 1 thing though. If you're really min-maxing raid dps the expertise might actually be more valuable as it doesn't just increase your tps but increases your dps aswel, while the 2% threat enchant doesn't benefit your dps.

The expertise grants you a reduction on parry hasted attacks (40 expertise is not the cap even though it's already pretty high) at every boss that has it active, grants you a tps boost not too far off 2% and increases your personal dps while tanking by a decent amount at the same time.
Min maxing....moot......not really needed, the real advantage of expertise vs the threat enchant is your first shieldslam.
You don't want to miss your first shieldslam in the first few seconds of a fight. And this is where the expertise enchant is superior to the threat enchant.

Akeber
06-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Could care less about the Stamina because it doesn't belong in a discussion of threat enchants.

The OP (who is an engineer) did not ask "which threat enchant is best for gloves", his question was "Armsman VS. 800 Armor".

Answer: 800 Armor.

Hit and expertice are indeed everywhere on gear and 2% threat isn't anything to write home about. So, 800 armor is the clear choice for any plate tank class that has engineering as a profession, as the OP does. This is assuming we're talking about his "progression tanking/survival" gloves. If we're talking about what he wants to do on his "threat gloves", that's a different story, but he didn't specify.

orcstar
06-14-2009, 02:57 PM
The OP (who is an engineer) did not ask "which threat enchant is best for gloves", his question was "Armsman VS. 800 Armor".

Answer: 800 Armor.

Hit and expertice are indeed everywhere on gear and 2% threat isn't anything to write home about. So, 800 armor is the clear choice for any plate tank class that has engineering as a profession, as the OP does. This is assuming we're talking about his "progression tanking/survival" gloves. If we're talking about what he wants to do on his "threat gloves", that's a different story, but he didn't specify.
If someone asks a question you should also bring other considerations into the picture to why different enchants are good or not. So limiting it only to the question asked makes for a narrow discussion.

There's multiple reasons why you could want some enchant somewhere.

In this case I agree with you however. The armor enchant is superior to the others.

If it's about threat you should take also expertise into the picture and while threat is nice, the 2% shouldn't be really an issue and also if you may want expertise it's better to get expertise somewhere else if you're going for it: like replacing a 24 stam gem with an expertise gem.

tuffmuffin
06-14-2009, 04:25 PM
The expertise grants you a reduction on parry hasted attacks (40 expertise is not the cap even though it's already pretty high) at every boss that has it active, grants you a tps boost not too far off 2% and increases your personal dps while tanking by a decent amount at the same time.
I am well aware that 40 expertise isn't the hard cap. I was simply illustrating how easy it is to get up towards the cap. Just a few more pieces of gear and you are there. When you can get the expertise cap with gear the expertise enchant does absolutely nothing at that point. In a balanced gear-set or one built with emphasis to survivability, sure, expertise could be better if that's what you want. The only fight where Parry-Hasting a boss can be devastating in the game right now is Vezax (If you're at a low gear level, Sapphiron or Malygos could hurt too, I guess). Min-maxing DPS isn't needed anymore, 3.0 was the final nail in that coffin when they nerfed Sunwell into oblivion. It can help for hard modes, but with most of them already being nerfed they are much more doable with a sub-optimal group.


The OP (who is an engineer) did not ask "which threat enchant is best for gloves", his question was "Armsman VS. 800 Armor".
If you had even been reading the thread you would know that discussion was closed, with a common concensus; 800 armor is generally the best enchant to go for if you're an engineer. As such, my statement was for the discussion this thread derailed into between me and Edgewalker about Armsman being such an "inferior" enchant. Therefore I'll say it again, I could care less about 18 stamina as it doesn't belong in that particular discussion.

Moving on, will say this again and move on.

Either way, at the end of the day you go with the enchant you prefer.

Edgewalker
06-18-2009, 08:37 AM
The only fight where Parry-Hasting a boss can be devastating in the game right now is Vezax

me and Edgewalker about Armsman being such an "inferior" enchant. Therefore I'll say it again, I could care less about 18 stamina as it doesn't belong in that particular discussion.

Moving on, will say this again and move on.

+18 Stamina really does belong in the discussion, in that in most situations there isn't enough value in the "threat" enchants to use them over additional stamina.
Armsman IS the inferior enchant, +2% threat simply does not have value for any current fight in the game. The threat on the onset of a fight, or on the spawning of a new mob, is the only important threat. Once you have a mob and can start your cycle it simply shouldn't ever pull.

Ferfey
06-18-2009, 08:49 AM
This thread got me thinking about my own glove enchant (sadly I'm not an engineer and don't have access to 800 armor). But a quick wowhead search brought this up:
Glove Reinforcements - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34207)
Its only 250 armor but if threat isn't and issue and I don't need more parry as a DK, would this be the enchant or does it fall behind the agility one?