PDA

View Full Version : DK: 26k+ ub hp, 546d, 36% av, rdy for Nax?



Kurtosis
06-09-2009, 12:21 AM
[Armory] (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Maiev&cn=Nightfreeze&gn=Sons+of+Silence) I think I'm still a bit low - have been shooting for 30k hp, 40% avoidance, and enough Expertise and Hit to maintain threat.

However, I got invited to tank a Nax 10 pug tonight since no other tanks were on, which made me wonder if my current stats are enough to tank it. Thoughts?

Kataztrophe
06-09-2009, 01:12 AM
You're more then geared for all of Naxx 10. You're fine.

VerticalEvent
06-09-2009, 03:40 AM
Remember - the gear that drops from Naxx10 is the same kind of gear that drops off of the final bosses in Heroics (iLevel 200 Epics).

If you can tank the bosses in Heroics with no problems, then Naxx10 should be all about knowing the strats (make sure the group your running with informs you of their strats - I've ran groups where they used strats that I considered non-standard and we've wiped because of it).

vine
06-09-2009, 05:01 AM
Your gear and spec are fine, other than being a little low on health. I'd be swapping out those dodge gems for stam, or stam+dodge hybrids. You want to be up around 28-30k if possible. Also see if you can get some more +hit. Frost relies heavily on spells and with only 161 you'll be missing a lot, meaning much lower threat.

Kurtosis
06-09-2009, 09:06 AM
Thx, in Frost Presence I've got over 28k health. And about what hit does Frost need in 10 man raids? I understand the spell hit cap is 17%, but raid buffs will get you some of the way there.

keeprock
06-09-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't think you "need" a certain amount of hit. Your Frost Strike and Rune Strike can't be dodged, blocked, or parried so that almost guarantees a couple of your threat generating spells are hitting all the time. I had 160 hit in Naxx and had few issues. Occasionally something important misses but it doesn't too long to recover.

Your good to go for Naxx. GO.

Just make sure you got your rune strike macroed into everything. It makes life easier. And use the ! in the macro "/cast !Rune Strike"

Esch
06-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Ideally, you want to hit 7% hit (263 rating) and 26 expertise (total, 211 rating with Tundra Stalker). Note that 263 hit rating gives ~10.5% spell hit rating, if I recall correctly. You don't need these to tank, but they will help considerably in holding your threat. With Frost Strike/Rune Strike, you can afford to give up some expertise, since those abilities work as if you are capped, hence the bias to Hit > Expertise rating.

Having Virulence's 3% spell hit from Unholy would be nice, but not required. You generate a notable amount of threat from Obliterate, Frost Strike and Rune Strikes which rely on melee hit rating. Hitting matters first, then you can worry (or negate) block/dodge/parrying by the target. Howling Blast is the only 'major' ability that would suffer in this case, and I recall commentary saying HB's hit cap was between the melee and spell hit caps. Ergo, the melee cap is adequate.

Consider dropping Acclimation for Epidemic, as the extra dot time gives more flexibility to Obliterate/Blood Boil instead of refreshing diseases. More of an AoE aspect, but on mobile fights you'll find the 'forgiveness' priceless. While I do like Acclimation, it's too specific for most tanking encounters... then you run into one where it's amazing, like Sapphiron.

Hayate
06-10-2009, 02:34 AM
Frost build favors more runic power, you shouldn't take acclimation, instead move those 3 point to Scent of Blood in Blood tree, so you can spam more frost strike.

You don't really need more point in Unholy other than anticipation, if you glyph for Howling Blast. Remember this, you shouldn't rely on Death and Decay to hold AoE threat, Howling Blast should be plenty for your own convinence.

Further more, I know a lot of website suggest frost spec single target rotation to be IT > PS > BS > BS > OB, that just waste of GCD, for frost DK tanks, Plague strike really does nothing for you, so if you want quick snap threat on every pull you should go IT > OB > Blood Tap > OB > BS > FS x2 > OB x3, that way after this initial rotation both of blood rune are used, it triggers your Blade Barrier.

For AoE pull, you don't necessary to go DnD, some of the more direct pull will be IT > Prest > HB, after that rotate between OB and FS till Rime Procs for more HB.

As far as Gear goes, Tempered Titansteel boots are BAD, you should get the Rep boots off Wrymrest Temple, it has tons of Hit and Defense on it, epic doesn't mean it is better, Tempered Titanstell Helm can be replace by the Helm that drop off HGundrake, some of the Blue Quality gears are actually better Itemize for Death Knight than the Epic Crafted gear.

Try to get to 540 defense without SSG rune on your weapon and get SS 4% parry. 4% parry is greater 25 defense and 2% HP.

wazdaa
06-10-2009, 07:23 AM
@hayate best way to start for frost when using that rotation is it>ob>bs>bs>bt>ob generates more rp, allowing you to spam skills whole the time else you'll have some idle time between your first badge of runes and 2nd without rp for fs.

@OP where are your prismatic gems? also if you want to gem for threat as frost gem for hit rather then expertise.
on a side note your avoidance is 42.75% on boss mobs, rather then 36%

Hayate
06-10-2009, 11:58 AM
@hayate best way to start for frost when using that rotation is it>ob>bs>bs>bt>ob generates more rp, allowing you to spam skills whole the time else you'll have some idle time between your first badge of runes and 2nd without rp for fs.

I never have any issue on my DK tank on initial rotation IT>OB>BT>OB>BS, but I will try your rotation and see if it make any major different than my current threat.

Kurtosis
06-10-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't think you "need" a certain amount of hit. Your Frost Strike and Rune Strike can't be dodged, blocked, or parried so that almost guarantees a couple of your threat generating spells are hitting all the time. I had 160 hit in Naxx and had few issues. Occasionally something important misses but it doesn't too long to recover.
Thanks. I just feel Oblit and BS (which I use for Death Runes when I don't need BB AoE) failing to connect alot against lvl 82 heroics bosses.

Just make sure you got your rune strike macroed into everything. It makes life easier. And use the ! in the macro "/cast !Rune Strike"
Got it, love it, never leave home without it.

Kurtosis
06-10-2009, 10:37 PM
Frost build favors more runic power, you shouldn't take acclimation, instead move those 3 point to Scent of Blood in Blood tree, so you can spam more frost strike.
I had SoB, but felt like there's alot of spell damage in heroics and wanted more mitigation against that. I do feel the lost 15rp every 10s, but I haven't had problems with threat yet, and it seems like over half the boss fights have something that procs Acclimation 3x.

You don't really need more point in Unholy other than anticipation, if you glyph for Howling Blast. Remember this, you shouldn't rely on Death and Decay to hold AoE threat, Howling Blast should be plenty for your own convinence.
In AoE situations, I usually start the fight by frontloading AoE threat w/ DnD->HB->BB->BB, then repeat HB->BB->BB as necessary. That's usually enough to hold all mobs even with dps who don't know how to Target Tank->Assist Target.

Further more, I know a lot of website suggest frost spec single target rotation to be IT > PS > BS > BS > OB, that just waste of GCD, for frost DK tanks, Plague strike really does nothing for you, so if you want quick snap threat on every pull you should go IT > OB > Blood Tap > OB > BS > FS x2 > OB x3, that way after this initial rotation both of blood rune are used, it triggers your Blade Barrier.
Awesome, dig it. I've never used PS as Frost, since it only seems to buff OB a bit and do a minute amount of extra DoT dmg, which hasn't been worth the GCD (especially without Epidemic). Will definitely start practicing with that rotation, thx.

For AoE pull, you don't necessary to go DnD, some of the more direct pull will be IT > Prest > HB, after that rotate between OB and FS till Rime Procs for more HB.
Will try that too, thx.

As far as Gear goes, Tempered Titansteel boots are BAD, you should get the Rep boots off Wrymrest Temple, it has tons of Hit and Defense on it, epic doesn't mean it is better, Tempered Titanstell Helm can be replace by the Helm that drop off HGundrake, some of the Blue Quality gears are actually better Itemize for Death Knight than the Epic Crafted gear.
I got the treads b/c as I was getting into heroics, my mitigation felt low, and my damage intake spiky. After a healer complained, I started aiming for as much armor and stam as possible, even at the expense of defense, dodge, and hit/expertise. The treads seem to have put almost all their item budget into stam, and have a little higher armor than the Wyrmrest boots. However, I'm better geared now, and might be able to try switching back.

Try to get to 540 defense without SSG rune on your weapon and get SS 4% parry. 4% parry is greater 25 defense and 2% HP.
Even with diminishing returns on parry? I assume at some point I'll have fully equipped epics whose base stats provide 540 defense without the need for Rune of SSG, at which point it might make sense to replace it with SS.

But up to that point, I thought SOP was to ignore parry and focus your item buffs on stam, def, dodge, and hit/expertise, and just take whatever parry comes with the gear but don't add to it.

Kurtosis
06-10-2009, 10:48 PM
@hayate best way to start for frost when using that rotation is it>ob>bs>bs>bt>ob generates more rp, allowing you to spam skills whole the time else you'll have some idle time between your first badge of runes and 2nd without rp for fs.
Interesting, will try that too.

@OP where are your prismatic gems?
Heard they're on the nerf block, so have been a bit wary about getting those till I better understand when and what's going to happen. I'm a new JC, still doing the JC dailies just to get the recipes (only have about 4 so far), so every JC token I spend has quite an opportunity cost. Still worth it?

also if you want to gem for threat as frost gem for hit rather then expertise.
Got it, but question: When you're tanking a boss, and you hit Oblit or Blood Strike, and it doesn't 'connect', but sort of resets (and doesn't cost any runes iirc), what's going on there? A miss by you, or a dodge or parry by the boss? That was happening alot, which is why added some Expertise. I'm running combat logs, just am usually pressed for time by the end of a run and forget to review them.

on a side note your avoidance is 42.75% on boss mobs, rather then 36%
Ah, good to hear. I thought Dodge% + Parry% = Avoidance%. What else is in that equation? Tried to find it in the Tankspot FAQs, but am not seeing it. Thx.

wazdaa
06-11-2009, 12:10 AM
Heard they're on the nerf block, so have been a bit wary about getting those till I better understand when and what's going to happen. I'm a new JC, still doing the JC dailies just to get the recipes (only have about 4 so far), so every JC token I spend has quite an opportunity cost. Still worth it? they will lose their prismatic character, in other words 41stam will only activate blue slot for socket bonus. for now i still make full use of em, but if you want to set up for change already. just put 3x 41stam in blue sockets.



Got it, but question: When you're tanking a boss, and you hit Oblit or Blood Strike, and it doesn't 'connect', but sort of resets (and doesn't cost any runes iirc), what's going on there? A miss by you, or a dodge or parry by the boss? That was happening alot, which is why added some Expertise. I'm running combat logs, just am usually pressed for time by the end of a run and forget to review them.
dunno exactly been a while since i specced frost myself. but i do know that 60-65% of my threat came from skills that couldn't be parried/dodged. also since you use glyph of HB it's in your interest to make it connect every time to refresh frost fever, bc if you miss it might not cost runes, but hb will go on cd and you'll have to manually refresh frost fever with IT.


Ah, good to hear. I thought Dodge% + Parry% = Avoidance%. What else is in that equation? Tried to find it in the Tankspot FAQs, but am not seeing it. Thx.
(Dodge%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Parry%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Miss%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+5%miss that all bosses have
(you find your miss% under defence)

so when you face a raid boss(3lvls higher):
(19.54-0.6)%+(14.08-0.6)%+(5.96-0.6)%+5% = 42.78%

Edit: some ppl say bosses only have 4.4% miss change, i dunno, i just use the old 5% till someone can prove it's something else (or i find the prove if they already did so :p)

Exarctus
06-11-2009, 05:01 AM
I would change some of your glyphs

ghideon
06-11-2009, 06:32 AM
Even with diminishing returns on parry? I assume at some point I'll have fully equipped epics whose base stats provide 540 defense without the need for Rune of SSG, at which point it might make sense to replace it with SS.



From all I've read, there is no DR on the parry gain from swordshattering.

Kurtosis
06-11-2009, 09:10 PM
they will lose their prismatic character, in other words 41stam will only activate blue slot for socket bonus. for now i still make full use of em, but if you want to set up for change already. just put 3x 41stam in blue sockets.
On it, thx.

dunno exactly been a while since i specced frost myself. but i do know that 60-65% of my threat came from skills that couldn't be parried/dodged. also since you use glyph of HB it's in your interest to make it connect every time to refresh frost fever, bc if you miss it might not cost runes, but hb will go on cd and you'll have to manually refresh frost fever with IT.
Good point. If I have to choose b/t glyphed HB hitting and Ob and/or BS hitting, I think I'll choose HB.

(Dodge%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Parry%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Miss%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+5%miss that all bosses have
(you find your miss% under defence)

so when you face a raid boss(3lvls higher):
(19.54-0.6)%+(14.08-0.6)%+(5.96-0.6)%+5% = 42.78%

Edit: some ppl say bosses only have 4.4% miss change, i dunno, i just use the old 5% till someone can prove it's something else (or i find the prove if they already did so :p)
Gracias.

Martie
06-12-2009, 02:14 AM
(Dodge%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Parry%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+(Miss%-0.2%*lvl boss is higher then you)+5%miss that all bosses have
(you find your miss% under defence)

so when you face a raid boss(3lvls higher):
(19.54-0.6)%+(14.08-0.6)%+(5.96-0.6)%+5% = 42.78%

Edit: some ppl say bosses only have 4.4% miss change, i dunno, i just use the old 5% till someone can prove it's something else (or i find the prove if they already did so :p)
Raid bosses do indeed have a base 4.4% miss chance.
But think about it. What miss would you get if you used your calculation for someone with base (so 400) defense?
Exactly. 4.4%.

People that don't know enough about the mechanics behind it repeat half the information they read somewhere and think they know it all. That's why things are so weird.
The reason for the 4.4% miss chance is due to the way weapon skill and defense interact. When they are equal, the percentage for miss is 5%. When the weapon skill of the attacker is higher then the defense of the defender, the defender has a lower chance of parrying, dodging, blocking or being missed. If the defense is higher, those chances are greater.
The difference is 0.04% per point in skill difference.
Mobs always have weapon and defense skills equal to five times their level.
Five times 0.04 = 0.2.

Now you know where the 0.2 percentage reduction in your formulas comes from.
Now you know why people say bosses have 4.4.

wazdaa
06-12-2009, 05:47 AM
Raid bosses do indeed have a base 4.4% miss chance.
But think about it. What miss would you get if you used your calculation for someone with base (so 400) defense?
Exactly. 4.4%.

People that don't know enough about the mechanics behind it repeat half the information they read somewhere and think they know it all. That's why things are so weird.
The reason for the 4.4% miss chance is due to the way weapon skill and defense interact. When they are equal, the percentage for miss is 5%. When the weapon skill of the attacker is higher then the defense of the defender, the defender has a lower chance of parrying, dodging, blocking or being missed. If the defense is higher, those chances are greater.
The difference is 0.04% per point in skill difference.
Mobs always have weapon and defense skills equal to five times their level.
Five times 0.04 = 0.2.

Now you know where the 0.2 percentage reduction in your formulas comes from.
Now you know why people say bosses have 4.4.
ic, but i substracted 0.6% from 'defenders chance to be missed' already. do you still have to substract it from 'attackers chance to miss' aswell. basicly making both seperate entities or substracting it from one is enough making them one entity. what you said still isn't an answer to that question and i've so far never found an answer to it.

Kurtosis
06-12-2009, 10:46 PM
Good explanation, thanks Martie.

Also, does Frigid Dreadplate and other talents like that factor into the mob/boss's miss equation?

Hayate
06-15-2009, 08:28 AM
Seriously, Diminishing Return only hit people with Ulduar Gear or Higher, at your level, you do need to stack avoidance, since 1) they nerf death knight's Armor, 2) if you still get hit hard, your Dodge + Parry does matter.

Voodan
06-15-2009, 10:31 AM
With regards to SG versus SS:

No the 4% parry from SS is not subject to DR. However, that does not make it categorically better than SG. It really depends on your gear level as well as your spec.

Gear: I believe SG scales with stam from gear as well as your base stamina. Therefore the higher your stamina, the more benefit from SG. Also, as you progress in Ulduar, a lot of the gear actually has less defense on some of the BiS items and more other stats (dodge/parry/stam/expertise/hit/etc...)

Spec: I personally think the SS rune is more conducive to an unholy spec. Frost generally likes a mix of stamina and avoidance but does not gain any specific benefit from avoidance as does UH spec (higher BS uptime). However for certain fights, avoidance makes sense due to fight mechanics. This is especially true if there is some sort of stacking debuff on hit (i.e. Add-tanking on KT, Kologarn, etc...)

In general, as you progress in gear level in many ways it makes more sense to stack stamina instead of avoidance (especially as a blood spec but even as a frost spec imo) in order to boost your EH and give your healers a larger cushion for those big hits Ulduar mobs are capable of.

At the end of the day, it really depends on what you're primary role will be in raids. As any form of MT, I would definitely consider stacking stam (and therefore the SG rune). As an OT, I really believe either/or are viable.