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Nibbs111x
06-08-2009, 07:24 PM
Okay, before i begin let me ask a few questions to clarify whether some of my thoughts seem valid or not.

Until the recent change to a dks armor rating it was my impression that death knights biggest weakness was straight magic damage or not being able to hold as much threat with the use of cooldowns taking priority. (Ie anti magic shield and such) does this hold still hold true or has the latest change in lowering their armor make physical avoidance stand on even ground if not of greater importance in heroics and above?

Also i'm currently using a cell phone to post this thread so please excuse me if this has been discussed already as using a phone can be very difficult to locate the information myself.. Lol

Nibbs111x
06-08-2009, 07:29 PM
Oh also just to note, i an refering to frost tanking in particular seeing as unholy is having no such difficulty generating aggro.

coe
06-09-2009, 01:41 AM
Frost builds with Killing Machine have no problems with threat at all.

Satorri
06-09-2009, 01:53 PM
I don't think any of your comments are (or were) accurate.

DK's have no significant advantage or disadvantage with taking magic damage compared to other classes except for Anti-magic shell, but that's a huge advantage.

DK's have the same issues with generating threat as everyone else. Good tanks do it without problem, poor tanks struggle. And poorly geared DKs will have a harder time out-threating much better geared dps. That's the same with every class.

Nibbs111x
06-09-2009, 03:54 PM
aah that's so true.. but for the most part it isn't as much a question of gearing as a question of using my rotation properly. i for the life of me cannot seem to consistently generate aggro as frost without losing it and having to scramble to get it back. (unlike my unholy spec using the same gear.)

My biggest concern was the fact that in the more magic threatening heroics (like the beginning of H Oculus and H AN) i'm still being torn apart by the constant damage and i only survive it as a frost spec by the use of my cooldowns and trinkets but my aggro generation becomes only single target if even for those times where i do pop them.

I guess a better way to phrase my question would be, would it be benificial to use more magic mitigation in my spec (without the heavy loss of aggro) or just go for a balanced tanking spec for frost?

wazdaa
06-10-2009, 12:30 AM
no offense but what's wrong with having to use cd's? i mean that's what they are there for. and the connection between having to use a defensive cd and having to switch to single target threat isn't very clear to me either.

also it isn't worth it to pick up extra magic mitigation talents while still mainly running 5man heroics and even later it is very situational especially the talent in frost (acclimation). so at your stage of progression i'd say it's best to keep a balanced tank spec.

also if you want advice about your rotation you will have to post if you use HBglyph or not. but if you are still struggeling with aggro it might be worth picking HBglyph up. so you can start with D&D>HB>bb which basicly pulls enough aggro that you shouldn't worry to much about aggro anymore if you keep HB & bb on cd from then on.

coe
06-10-2009, 01:07 AM
I'm not sure if there's need for another topic like this, but... give us your armory link Nib, so we can check your talents and gear. Maybe there's something you can improve. Sometimes your healer is also learning, are you running HC with the same healer every time? ;) Good healer make a huge difference, really ;)

Nibbs111x
06-10-2009, 01:15 AM
My problem is not the use of cooldowns but the fact that if i ever should use them at the start of a normal rotation (when a dps pulls more adds usually) i don't have the aggro established nor the runes to get it all under control. Add that to the fact that most higher dps on my realm do nothing that may drop their aoe dmg, it seems smarter to just incorporate it into my spec and save me a few headaches!

And as far as me using the hb rune and your reference to my lvl of play, i'll say this. I am currently using an unholy tanking spec with more then sufficient gear (mainly gemmed for aggro and dps over avoidance due to the much better geared dps and the much shorter fights) and i've been trying to get back into frost tanking in my spare time but because of my realm's progression and my lack thereof i have a very difficult time finding out what will work for my toon and what won't.

Oh also the reasoning behind why i'm not as well geared at the moment is really quite simple. I live in an area that is a 5 or 6 hour time difference from my server time so on average i tend to log on at about 8 pm server at the earliest and i'm on for a few hours (usually in to bed at 2-3am server). Not the easiest or most practical time to pug a raid huh? Lol

Nibbs111x
06-10-2009, 01:33 AM
I'm not sure if there's need for another topic like this, but... give us your armory link Nib, so we can check your talents and gear. Maybe there's something you can improve. Sometimes your healer is also learning, are you running HC with the same healer every time? ;) Good healer make a huge difference, really ;)

And coe, that's another part of my problem. As i just wrote i'm usually on in during the late night hours so although i do have a few regular healers i do also take more then a few chances with whoever happens to be on and willing. Also my biggest concern because of this is trying to run anything that may be difficult and find out that the current heals is too new to really heal me through the inc burst damage. And as for the armory link i'll need to do that tomorrow along with a spec link for frost that i use but the toon name is Mydarkside on Nazgrel (us) if you want to take a look.

coe
06-10-2009, 01:57 AM
Nibb, few things I would change:

- take Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40714) for tanking (additional avoidance helps in HC runs),
- swap Parry gem you have for something else (never gem for Parry),
- in talents drop Subversion (blood strikes are minor threat in Unholy build), ghoul talents (pets don't add to your threat, they generate their own threat),
- take those talents: Imp Icy Touch (additional dehaste on mobs == you take less beating), Dirge (more RP for rune strikes, early Unholy Blight), Reaping (more Scourge Strikes).

Your gear is ok, if you want to try Frost build check out my wowarmory.

edit: now I noticed most importnat thing ;)

Take Scourge Strike, after last buffs this is your major threat tool ;) And drop Death Rune Mastery talent, you don't want blood runes, but you want to have unholy / frost runes for Scourge Strike spam ;)

sillypuddy
06-10-2009, 07:59 PM
i have a question on sapph does acclimation proc? because it doesnt seem to be proccing on the ticks and other stuff.

GravityDK
06-11-2009, 12:31 AM
Yes, it does proc. Whether it's a good investment of talents is another question; I don't like it for PvE. Good for PvP.

Here's one post (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-sunos_fireside_chat_dk_endgame_tanking_updated/p27/#post1206387)on it, arguing against it pretty well.

Here is some maths (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36998-dk_tanking_discussion/p2/#post980998)on it (I love maths).

Shake
06-11-2009, 08:06 AM
Hey guys, maybe this needs a thread of its own, but Death Knight Tanking fits the category for what I would like some input on.
I have been doing allot of looking around on specs & DK tanking since my main is now a DK. I came up with a build that I believe provides Max stamina, expertise & threat.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou)

When I made this build, I kept in mind that a tanks job is to survive & keep threat...good tanks do good damage no matter what the spec/class with proper rotations.
I chose to not put points into Reaping since I'm putting points into Scent of Blood...I'm going to be spamming Runic Strike anyways.
Since 90% of all mobs & bosses in Ulduar are heavy magic damage, I went with Spell Deflection & Anti-Magic Zone...along with Bone Shield & improved Magic Suppression, well that's just a ton of mitigation all on its own.
Night of the Dead was a filler that I found to be extremely nice to have...between bosses takes roughly 15 minutes, so I have a mini shield wall for every boss.
We have an Unholy dps DK in the raid, so I don’t need Wandering Plague.
I took Veteran of the Third War over Rage of Rivendare since Veteran provides an extra point of expertise, & I'll take 6% more stamina over 10% damage any day.
IIT was difficult to pass up, but I figure I should be doing more then enough threat to really make it worth the 3 points.

Any thoughts, comments & questions are appreciated.

Satorri
06-11-2009, 04:45 PM
Indeed Shake, this is not the right place, not even the right section of the forums.

That said, your initial statement is correct, but deserves an asterisk:

Good tanks can perform adequately with most any spec/class.

As a DK your threat and survival will have strong correlations with your spec and your gear. You can get a large range of results based on the three golden factors: gear, spec, and player.

Forgive me for not looking over your spec, I'm kind of on the run at the moment, but I may get to it later or this weekend.

Nibbs111x
06-11-2009, 06:43 PM
Actually Shake, i did look at your spec ideas and it's slighty based on my theory in the blood tree, although it does deserve it's own thread lol.

A few things i'd like to pick on though.. although unholy is the threat generating spec (nearly unrivaled in most cases) you still lost alot of your threat from your combination by simply overlooking certain talents. namely i would try to fit in ravenous dead (3% strength; hence stronger diseases as a whole), wandering plague (although it's not needed, it's still great threat producer depending on your crit chance. i'd drop a point in it) and possibly the 5th point in toughness (even 1% more armor will help on most trash mobs/any boss with adds). also, although ebon plaguebringer does increase your crit chance, you only would really need it for wandering plague (more crit) and unholy blight (which can be made up for by ravenous dead). now i'm not saying that it's to not be used but those points can (somewhat) easily be spread out to better suit your aggro.

Then again it also would greatly depend on your gearing.. if you have better gear then most that you run with (i myself tend to be somewhat poorly geared in comparison) then you're spec may work just fine on threat but if some out gear you by a small or even great amount (like me) then you may want to alter it to better suit others.

What i came up with for someone like myself is this, but feel free to look at it and alter it how you see fit.. also lemme know any comments! :D

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0xZbghIb0kghcockk)

slackhoid
06-12-2009, 01:54 AM
Guys, about these 23/5/4X "unholy" specs: they propably work mostly ok but they are not optimal and their synergy is somewhat lacking (regardless of the gear level).
- You have x points Desecration in them. It's use as tank is quite situational and when you compare it to Rage of Rivendare you'd get by going a bit deeper into unholy tree you see a huge difference. RoR gives you 2% more dmg per point (as unholy you want the blood plague always in targets) + extra expertize that we tanks love
- Ebon Plaguebringer is very good boost to your own (unholy dmg is magic: SS, DC, UB, BB...) dmg/threat and the raid dmg and gives you some extra crit as bonus. Going deep into unholy without it maxed (regardless of being tank, dps or even pvp spec you want it always) is very questionable.
- I'm not a fan of wandering plague unless you are speccing into unholy as trash tank. The unholy AOE tanking is very very good without buffing it at all and tanks pretty much always run low crit-% ==> Wandering Plague not too efficient
- I'm not into Unfaltering Knight Sigil; I use Awareness. It boosts both my main nuke and secondary defensive nuke (Death Strike with 3 diseases is very good, get nearly 7k heals each strike when raid buffed) dmg very nicely and help/boost to keep up threat whether not I'm playing offensively/defensively.

IMO these semihybrid specs really give up too much very good threat/defensive capabilities (I bet $$ that my "pure" unholy tank spec just obliterates these when it comes to single or multitarget threat: just having RoR for 10% extra dmg and Reaping for more SS are just so good) for that extra STR/STAM in blood tree and I fail to see how they would be very useful other than in special cases like Sarth +3D where you need magic mitigation from both unholy and blood tree + absolutely maxed health. All in all, when speccing like this you should understand that you do not gain threat and health, you lose punch of threat (6% more STR from blood tree loses to RoR quite bad) and gain some health.

Some comments about statements made in this thread
- "I'm spamming Rune Strike". No you are not. You can't spam next melee abilities that only work when you parry/dodge. Unholy tank spams DCs during times when runic is high and when runes are not available
- "Spell Deflection is a lot of magic dmg minitigation". It can be some yes, but it is also unreliable and much nerfed after the Parry loss from the recent Blade Barrier change. It is much weaker abililty than it seems.

GravityDK
06-12-2009, 02:48 AM
I used an Unholy-Vot3W spec for a while, it had enough threat to do the job. It was fun too. Lots of stamina, and great spell-damage reduction from Blood's Spell Deflection and Unholy's Magic Suppresion. Spec is like this. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0xZdghcx0zgI0ocod:MrZmMV)

I did some 25-man raids in that spec with no threat problems. Note it does not have IIT so you must have a warrior doing that for you. (Not something I recommend, kinda cludgy).

But my point is that the threat was fine and it felt fun.

Shake
06-12-2009, 12:01 PM
I'll be better with future posts, this should be its own thread.

I decided to go a little deep in the Blood tree because I saw 3 points in Veteran of the Third war being better spent then Ravenous Dead (only 3% strength with it & pet abilities which are worthless for a DK tank) & better then 5 points in RoR...basically 3 points spent in a talent that provides 1 more expertise 6% stamina, and 3% more strength...that's an overall 5 points you can put into something else.
That brings me to my next question...would moving 3 points from Spell Deflection over to 5/5 Dark Conviction make up for no points in RoR?
Would an increase to my crit by 5% with weapons, spells & abilities be better then a flat 10% increased damage to just spells & abilities (not weapon)? If so, you would be able to replace RoR altogether & be all the better for it. Spell deflection is lacking thanks to the Blade Barrier nerf, so would be 3 points better spent in the first place.
As far as Wandering Plague, I use Blood Boil hear and again & that seems to keep all mobs on me like glue, so I feel ok not putting any points in it.

The last piece to the puzzle is 3 missing points in Reaping...I don’t see where I can really move any points, and I'm thinking I wont see much of a difference in my TPS...specially with 5/5 Dark Conviction.

By the way, my Armory link is The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Fenris&n=Blooddrunk) -- I'm going to level JC & probably stick with enchanting...any thoughts on that?

New Tallent Tree will be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGV00cZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou)

Edit:
Quote: IMO these semihybrid specs really give up too much very good threat/defensive capabilities (I bet $$ that my "pure" unholy tank spec just obliterates these when it comes to single or multitarget threat: just having RoR for 10% extra dmg and Reaping for more SS are just so good) for that extra STR/STAM in blood tree and I fail to see how they would be very useful other than in special cases like Sarth +3D where you need magic mitigation from both unholy and blood tree + absolutely maxed health. All in all, when speccing like this you should understand that you do not gain threat and health, you lose punch of threat (6% more STR from blood tree loses to RoR quite bad) and gain some health.

You may have a point, but I have always been one to experiment with something new to see if it works a little better. All this needs more testing on my part, and I'll try it both ways & post my results.

Nibbs111x
06-12-2009, 10:06 PM
IMO these semihybrid specs really give up too much very good threat/defensive capabilities (I bet $$ that my "pure" unholy tank spec just obliterates these when it comes to single or multitarget threat: just having RoR for 10% extra dmg and Reaping for more SS are just so good) for that extra STR/STAM in blood tree and I fail to see how they would be very useful other than in special cases like Sarth +3D where you need magic mitigation from both unholy and blood tree + absolutely maxed health. All in all, when speccing like this you should understand that you do not gain threat and health, you lose punch of threat (6% more STR from blood tree loses to RoR quite bad) and gain some health.


On threat i agree with you whole heartedly slackhoid, BUT the idea behind using a hybrid spec like this (at least in my case) is to maximize survivability just incase of a questionable party and STILL hold enough aggro to maintain threat. i tested out a spec similar to the unholy one i posted and although the drop in threat really stinks in some cases (keeping me on my feet at most times) it was still able to hold threat from quite a few ulduar geared dps (3.5k-4.7k dps with good target switching) AND made the job a little easier for the heals.. (granted i did use raise dead/death pact liberally =P) Considering that majority of my gear is from heroics/emblems of heroism though, i think that was pretty good!!

Lol as i said earlier, i don't have alot of time to pug a raid and there's not as many on when i am so although i'm not nearly as geared as most i run with. regardless i still do know what i am doing. my only thought is if it would be a "smart" idea to regem for parry instead of dodge with a spec like the one i am currently in ( Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMc0hZ0xZfgRI00dghoockuh) ). i mean sure i get way less physical avoidance through parry but i DO get much better magical mitigation via spell deflection (valuable mainly for trash mobs/some bosses) and i tend to "kite" most trash mobs anyways hence avoiding alot of physical damage seeing as how the dps is usually sufficent and since so much of the game is movement based now if you or your healer(s) are not as geared (moving for mines, out of aoes, etc)..

So tell me, what do you think? lol

slackhoid
06-13-2009, 06:16 AM
Lol as i said earlier, i don't have alot of time to pug a raid and there's not as many on when i am so although i'm not nearly as geared as most i run with. regardless i still do know what i am doing. my only thought is if it would be a "smart" idea to regem for parry instead of dodge with a spec like the one i am currently in ( Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMc0hZ0xZfgRI00dghoockuh) ). i mean sure i get way less physical avoidance through parry but i DO get much better magical mitigation via spell deflection (valuable mainly for trash mobs/some bosses) and i tend to "kite" most trash mobs anyways hence avoiding alot of physical damage seeing as how the dps is usually sufficent and since so much of the game is movement based now if you or your healer(s) are not as geared (moving for mines, out of aoes, etc)..

So tell me, what do you think? lol
I'm a long time pug-raider ger myself and am huge fan of using your own imagination and trying things instead of running cookie-cutters from Elitisjerks. I'm by no means saying that "don't do that", just trying to point out compromises you make.

I used to play pvp for fun in blood/unholy hybrid and generally I'm fond of the combination and originally tried a version for tanking too. One major issue I encountered was that I can't put the 8 very important points into Frost. IIT is a huge damage reduction. When pugging you cannot always count that there is melee speed reduction available and even in full guild runs you may encounter situations where that can be temporarily unavailable (Thorim arena vs. tunnel grouping...). So all-in-all I've found that I cannot live without it, it just so good. If your best buddy is a warr that pretty much is always there to provide that then it is quite different ballgame.

I would not start gemming for parry to improve spell deflection. To get a single % of parry you need so much more gems vs. getting a % of dodge that it is simple not worth it. I've been using policy of taking parry when it comes in otherwize solid item but do not enchant/gem to it.

Spell deflection is an ok talent, but it being random/situational greatly diminishes its value in my eyes. Unholy's great magic mitigation/absorbtion make a huge difference in healing needed for example during Steelbreakers Fusion Punches, Hodir's Frozen blows etc. using IBF, AMS/AMZ, AotD can pretty much gimp all those attacks. In these critical situations Spell Deflection does not help at all because you cannot count on it to catch that crucial big magic blow.

As for threat; in normal situations threat is rarely an issue in current WOW and the only things pointing out threat differences between well-played tanks are those where dps is enjoying huge NPC or environmental buffs like Hodir, Iron Council.

Nibbs111x
06-13-2009, 03:36 PM
Aah good point on the spell deflection slackhoid but also don't forget that it only lasts 7 seconds (glyphed) and has a 45 second cooldown where as amz has a much longer one. As for the parry, rune of swordshattering does wonders along with some enchants and minor gearing changes. Also some gems are just for fillers (got the 16 dodge gems for red atm lol)

Well either way, back to pure unholy tanking for now (it's what i know best) until i figure out what would work out best =p

Satorri
06-14-2009, 06:15 AM
Careful Nibbs, AMS lasts 5 sec (7 sec glyphed) with a 45 sec CD, Spell Deflection is passive and always available.

Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.

Nibbs111x
06-14-2009, 04:40 PM
Satorri, that was exactly my thoughts in response to slackhoid's post before me but thank you for explaining it much better then i have.

All in all i am determined to work this spec idea but for now i'll settle for a pure spec i know to be good for what i do and work out my gearing and spec along the way. :D

slackhoid
06-15-2009, 05:29 AM
Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

I'm well aware that Spell deflection equals the same coverage, but I preferred the old version that procced much more often to mitigate 30%. Getting hit for big part of my health bar is not good for my blood pressure so I liked the "mitigate less but much more often" version ;)



It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.
Maybe it is the control freakish side on me, but I prefer the abilities that are under my control and activated on demand so much more. I practically never take unmitigated Fusion Punch from Steelbreaker; Just chain AMZ, AMS, IBF etc. and it for some reason I have those all in CD I'll take it with Bone Shield and have spared runes to 2-3 Death Strike self-heals. This while keeping AoTD and Death Pact (I'm one those weirdos who tank with perma-pet) still as serious Oop Shait bottons.

Pretty much the same goes to the Hodir, chain the same things during Frozen Blows, wear 2 piece Fr + resistance flask+aura and Frozen blows are not that bad. Our small guild has been struggling with Hodir a bit, but that is more about bringing new and sometimes pugged ppl into the encounter; ppl take just way too much avoidable dmg from Biring Cold (despite Ensidiafails wall of shame ;)) and falling snow.

Satorri
06-15-2009, 03:38 PM
Getting hit for big part of my health bar is not good for my blood pressure so I liked the "mitigate less but much more often" version ;)

I'm with you. I remember doing Patchwerk on 25 way way back and being jittery for a good half hour afterwards. My low health warnings pretty much put me into a state of hyper-tension.

Nibbs111x
06-15-2009, 08:48 PM
haha i definately see your point and agree with you slackhoid but simply put, i'm good on aggro atm so i think i may just take spell deflection and see what else happens. if it proves more useful then good, if not i only lose out on 50g and some gems right?! xD

Rialév
06-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Hey guys, maybe this needs a thread of its own, but Death Knight Tanking fits the category for what I would like some input on.
I have been doing allot of looking around on specs & DK tanking since my main is now a DK. I came up with a build that I believe provides Max stamina, expertise & threat.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou)

When I made this build, I kept in mind that a tanks job is to survive & keep threat...good tanks do good damage no matter what the spec/class with proper rotations.
I chose to not put points into Reaping since I'm putting points into Scent of Blood...I'm going to be spamming Runic Strike anyways.
Since 90% of all mobs & bosses in Ulduar are heavy magic damage, I went with Spell Deflection & Anti-Magic Zone...along with Bone Shield & improved Magic Suppression, well that's just a ton of mitigation all on its own.
Night of the Dead was a filler that I found to be extremely nice to have...between bosses takes roughly 15 minutes, so I have a mini shield wall for every boss.
We have an Unholy dps DK in the raid, so I don’t need Wandering Plague.
I took Veteran of the Third War over Rage of Rivendare since Veteran provides an extra point of expertise, & I'll take 6% more stamina over 10% damage any day.
IIT was difficult to pass up, but I figure I should be doing more then enough threat to really make it worth the 3 points.

Any thoughts, comments & questions are appreciated.

I've used a variation of this build in many situations. although I'd most certainly prefer to have 3/3 in reaping and 1/5 in Desecration. I agree that it does provide the highest amount of top end threat that I can produce. I'm not particularly fond of its physical mitigation, but it's magic mitigation is a good step up with both Magic Supression and Spell Deflection. Wherein I love to use this build in fights that have a lot of incoming magic damage over physical damage.

I'd have put this in a different thread however.

Though I do like the benefits of having points in scent of blood, 3/3 rather than 2/2 in dirge which grants per PS and SS, which you will be using pretty frequently with this build, I'd say that 2 talent points is a greater maxed investment over 3 talent points in your sub spec tree, which could be spent in dark conviction for a much higher threat possibility. Believe me, you're not going to find a lack of runic power with this build to not be using RS and UB.

Rialév
06-15-2009, 10:18 PM
haha i definately see your point and agree with you slackhoid but simply put, i'm good on aggro atm so i think i may just take spell deflection and see what else happens. if it proves more useful then good, if not i only lose out on 50g and some gems right?! xD

If you only knew how often I respec...

And as far as spell deflection goes... I read this in my MSBT the other day while accidentally standing too close to a bomb I set. Spell Deflection 7548 (4587) Absorbed.

It's certainly worth it.

Shake
06-16-2009, 11:36 AM
Rialév, thanks for your input, moving points away from Desecration really does make the most sense. I'll be using a new build based on it that will look a bit like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMV0hcZ0LZbghcL0kgIzocou) -- I've respeced trying a few different variations, including the strait up traditional Unholy build. I found it didn’t hold up to the hybrid spec on threat or dps. Magic mitigation, hands down over anything else...physical mitigation, it could be better...honesty, if your geared enough to be tanking progression, then you shouldn’t be very worried about a little less physical mitigation compared to everything else you get out of the build.

Satorri is right on the money with the Spell Deflection by the way guys. No, it's not 100% uptime, but the mitigation you'll get out of it overall in a raid night/boss fight is 3 points very well spent.

Rialév
06-16-2009, 12:28 PM
I'll be honest and say it's a variation of the build, that I haven't tried yet. It looks solid on paper. For magic mitigation purposes it will be top notch. A passive 6%, and the possible RNG of a 45%, with 20% from Bone Shield makes for a great advantage over the other 2 trees.

I tried a full unholy build after 3.0.8 i didn't like it's performance compared to how it used to do. However switching to a more hybrid build with the 23 points in the blood tree to pick up Veteran of the Third War, pretty much ensured that it was a solid build.

lyd
06-17-2009, 09:18 AM
personally my only concern when i'm looking at the effectiveness of my spec is the following:

a) do i generate enough threat to keep the dps from pulling
b) do i generate enough threat to keep OT's from pulling boss threat off me at inopportune times


(a) is not very difficult as long as your dps doesn't significantly outgear you and you are spec'd well. (b) can be slightly more difficult depending on the gear level and class of your OT. i was stupid for awhile and wasn't spec'ing into bladed armor, so my threat was sub-par and i was constantly being beaten on the TPS meters by other tanks, although i was keeping the dps at bay. after seeing a paly tank blow me out of the water, i re-tooled my spec, lost a little utility and a little mitigation, grabbed bladed armor, and now my threat is excellent.

so my advice would be to make sure that any spec you take allows you to accomplish (a) and (b) first and foremost, and then maximize mitigation second.

here's what i run with currently:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Medivh&n=Offenzivname&group=1)

i know some people like to avoid taking Icy Talons because they can assume the buff will come from somewhere else in a raid setting, but i prefer to have it handy. i've used this spec to tank through naxx 25, OS 25 and Maly 25 successfully, so i'm not too worried about it. hopefully i'll be able to repeat my success in ulduar :P

Edgewalker
06-18-2009, 08:56 AM
Careful Nibbs, AMS lasts 5 sec (7 sec glyphed) with a 45 sec CD, Spell Deflection is passive and always available.

Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.

The problem, especially in Ulduar, is that wherever the Spell Deflection might proc, healers are already anticipating and healing for damage that never comes. Plasma Blast, Fusion Punch, Flame vents, Frozen Blows... they are all on semi set intervals with consistent damage and ample raid warning. You are rarely saving yourself, just causing a little bit more overheal on an already incoming heal.
Going deep blood, I would rather have Sudden Doom every time, unless they add a different style fight in Coliseum.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Kil%27jaeden&n=%C3%86dge&group=2)

Edgewalker
06-18-2009, 09:01 AM
personally my only concern when i'm looking at the effectiveness of my spec is the following:

a) do i generate enough threat to keep the dps from pulling
b) do i generate enough threat to keep OT's from pulling boss threat off me at inopportune times


(a) is not very difficult as long as your dps doesn't significantly outgear you and you are spec'd well. (b) can be slightly more difficult depending on the gear level and class of your OT. i was stupid for awhile and wasn't spec'ing into bladed armor, so my threat was sub-par and i was constantly being beaten on the TPS meters by other tanks, although i was keeping the dps at bay. after seeing a paly tank blow me out of the water, i re-tooled my spec, lost a little utility and a little mitigation, grabbed bladed armor, and now my threat is excellent.

so my advice would be to make sure that any spec you take allows you to accomplish (a) and (b) first and foremost, and then maximize mitigation second.

here's what i run with currently:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Medivh&n=Offenzivname&group=1)

i know some people like to avoid taking Icy Talons because they can assume the buff will come from somewhere else in a raid setting, but i prefer to have it handy. i've used this spec to tank through naxx 25, OS 25 and Maly 25 successfully, so i'm not too worried about it. hopefully i'll be able to repeat my success in ulduar :P


They prefer to not take Icy Talons because it WILL come from somewhere else, at the very leaast 16% of it will, and taking it gimps personal abilities far too much. In your case you are losing out on Scent of Blood, Killing Machine, Chill of the Grave, AND Merciless Combat. You are also glyphed pretty poorly, Glyph of Frost Strike and Obliterate are Pretty Standard, and Glyph of Icy Touch is nice as well over Disease.
You could make an argument of some of those, but losing Killing Machine is simply a poor idea.

lyd
06-18-2009, 11:07 AM
They prefer to not take Icy Talons because it WILL come from somewhere else, at the very leaast 16% of it will, and taking it gimps personal abilities far too much. In your case you are losing out on Scent of Blood, Killing Machine, Chill of the Grave, AND Merciless Combat. You are also glyphed pretty poorly, Glyph of Frost Strike and Obliterate are Pretty Standard, and Glyph of Icy Touch is nice as well over Disease.
You could make an argument of some of those, but losing Killing Machine is simply a poor idea.

well the problem is that i'm not running 25-mans consistently right now, and in 10-mans you're not always guaranteed to have a shaman in the raid. The 5% permanent haste is nice too. however, i am definitely still considering pulling icy talons out of my spec in the long run.

i disagree that i am glyph'd poorly. I find glyph of disease makes keeping diseases up on multiple targets much easier, and 10% crit to Runestrike is a nice dps/tps boost. I actually moved out of glyph of IT because i found the additional RP to be unnecessary with my rotation. in that sense, i find scent of blood underwhelming, especially since chill of the grave would essentially give me more runepower than i need to sustain my rotation. Since they changed Killing Machine to chance on hit, i agree that it is definitely a sacrifice that should give me pause. if i start running 25-man's consistently again, i will probably drop it and pick up the suggested talents. but you stay away from my glyph of disease :P

Satorri
06-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Anyone who suggests that Merciless Combat is a vital tanking ability loses a nice chunk of cred in my book.

Edgewalker
06-18-2009, 08:43 PM
Anyone who suggests that Merciless Combat is a vital tanking ability loses a nice chunk of cred in my book.

Vital no, a nice chunk of TPS increase where other higher threat classes receive the same boost, yes.

Anyone that suggest spell deflection is a good talent to pick up for Sunbeams and f@#(ng flame vents loses credibility as a raid tank in my books as well.

Emi
06-19-2009, 05:08 AM
I currently run with 1pt in Merciless Combat in my frost build. By no means i consider it vital but its definitely an extremely useful "filler" point for TPS for the reason mentioned.

I wouldnt rely on Spell Deflection(chance of) type mechanics when it comes to survivability.

That said, i hope you guys lighten up a bit ;)

Satorri
06-19-2009, 08:42 AM
Sorry Emi for my part, it's easy to ride my nerves when people come in and jump up and down at how foolish we are for not seeing things the way they do.

At the end of the day, numbers win out, as do people who think for themselves. The community here is best taken as adivsory, as additional ways of seeing things, but the final choice is always in the hands of the player, and we have the good fortune of playing WoW where there actually are choices, not single unquestionable specs.

Chamenas
06-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Vital no, a nice chunk of TPS increase where other higher threat classes receive the same boost, yes.

Anyone that suggest spell deflection is a good talent to pick up for Sunbeams and f@#(ng flame vents loses credibility as a raid tank in my books as well.

I specifically took Merciless out of the spec I use and I have NEVER had threat issues, ever. However, I use the extra Death and Decay on trash pulls constantly, which is where my largest threat issue has always been.

Satorri
06-19-2009, 03:14 PM
My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.

Nibbs111x
06-21-2009, 10:40 AM
My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.

yup my thoughts exactly.. although on trash pulls it allows you (like unholy does already most of the time) to untarget skull and move on to increasing threat on the next at say 30% life, it by no means should a staple to your general threat! by half life on most bosses you SHOULD have enough aggro to allow dps to go all out on him already and worry about survivability!

Emi
06-22-2009, 01:46 AM
My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.
Depends what fight you are talking about. On Hodir and Vezzax for example, due to the buffs the ranged can get, you need all the TPS you can get wether its 1m or 4m into the fight.
This approach has served me well thus far because if theres one thing our dps'ers dont complain is overaggroing. Even those that use their 2 eyes to see the target and the other for Recount :rolleyes: ...

Satorri
06-22-2009, 06:26 AM
I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.

Vezzax I don't have problems on, though that I can understand a bit better since I don't have to kite (yet) and despite the buff, the ranged still have to worry about mana eventually (plus they are always having to dodge the nasty Mark).

Your point is well said though.

Edgewalker
06-22-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.

Vezzax I don't have problems on, though that I can understand a bit better since I don't have to kite (yet) and despite the buff, the ranged still have to worry about mana eventually (plus they are always having to dodge the nasty Mark).

Your point is well said though.

It's just a gear / your DPS / buff spread issue. I've never had agro issue on any boss, but my point was that Merciless Combat is a nice tool, is a nice free chunk of TPS and DPS, and is something you lose in addition to better, really really good tools when you spec Icy Talons.

slackhoid
06-25-2009, 06:17 AM
I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.

I'm unholy and I'm not having any threat issues on Hodir either. I usually wait for Storm Power to hit me 1st time and pop Blood Fury + Pot & ERW to maximize my threat gen during buff. Having specced max into Necrosis and using RS Glyph my single target threat is quite ok (2nd T8.5-piece and the 2-piece bonus I got yesterday won't hurt my TPS either) in general and Hodir fight suits unholy in sense that Singed Buff boosts my SS, DC and UB considerably. This combined with threat lead time I get while DPS is freeing NPCs has given me considerable lead so far. Once our DPS get a bit more gear (I overgear most of them a bit) and learn to maximize the buff usage things may get more interesting.

Unholy is supposed to be worst single-target TPS spec, but I'm really not seeing that at least yet.

Emi
06-25-2009, 06:36 AM
Well if i get the Storm Power buff then obviously threat is not an issue. When i see my lead is sufficient i call on TS to whoever gets it next to move near a caster group thats on a light beam.

The problem arises when :
- At the pull they forget they're supposed to come to me as soon as they get it.
- Due to previous buffs going to casters they start gaining on TPS and i forget to call on TS that i need the buff :D
- They get distracted ... you know, 1 eye on the target and the other on Recount ...

Apart from that, TPS has never been an issue. In fact in the previous version of my build i had that extra point in RPM and not MC :p

Satorri
06-25-2009, 08:21 AM
Unholy is supposed to be worst single-target TPS spec, but I'm really not seeing that at least yet.

This is a long running fallacy that simply isn't true, and honestly never was in live.

slackhoid
06-25-2009, 08:56 AM
This is a long running fallacy that simply isn't true, and honestly never was in live.
Never seen it either, like I said, but yet if you go to Elitistjerks DK end-game tanking threat you find it there in page 1 as an assumed fact: "Low ST threat - Barely enough in several cases" . Gotta wonder why?

In fact what I've seen several times is quite the opposite; I was off-tanking Patch25 some weeks ago and MT was Frost DK armed with Betrayer and higher avoidance (otherwize similar gear) than I have and yet I had to be very careful not to pass his threat with my much worse weapon. Given how trivial fight Patch is for tank I don't think it was even a L2P issue either.

VoA25 pugs I run every week often go as "let the DK MT as he's got better threat" when ~5k+ dps'ers go threaten pass warrior or drood tank.

Emi
06-25-2009, 09:09 AM
...In fact what I've seen several times is quite the opposite; I was off-tanking Patch25 some weeks ago and MT was Frost DK armed with Betrayer and higher avoidance (otherwize similar gear) than I have and yet I had to be very careful not to pass his threat with my much worse weapon. Given how trivial fight Patch is for tank I don't think it was even a L2P issue either.

His Hateful Strike also adds threat to the OT's.

slackhoid
06-25-2009, 11:26 AM
His Hateful Strike also adds threat to the OT's.
Wow, 1st time I heard about it; and since it said to affect 25-man only no wonder I did not know about it, I mostly stick to 10-man raids (IMO 25-man guilds are such a mess and 25-man pugs don't even warrant mentioning :p) . No wonder it truly is an autoattack fight and thus officially the most boring fight ever for OT :)

HootyElune
06-25-2009, 12:19 PM
I was wanting to know if anyone had tried using anti-magic shield on Steelbreaker, does this minimise the effect of the dot? or does it have no effect?

Also I find given the nature of the Steelbreaker fight, Acclimation will give you significant magic resistance when stacked with the palidin nature aura (280)

Here is my frost tanking spec. I find it useful for both AOE tanking and single target tanking (swapping BS for BB) in the single target rotations. Never have any problems.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Elune&cn=Hooty&gn=Eluneminati)

One thing I might change is perhaps the icy talons for ravenous dead and epidemic... Note I use DS as opposed to OB to imporve surviability.

thoughts?

Inaara
06-25-2009, 01:29 PM
I was wanting to know if anyone had tried using anti-magic shield on Steelbreaker, does this minimise the effect of the dot? or does it have no effect?

Also I find given the nature of the Steelbreaker fight, Acclimation will give you significant magic resistance when stacked with the palidin nature aura (280)

Here is my frost tanking spec. I find it useful for both AOE tanking and single target tanking (swapping BS for BB) in the single target rotations. Never have any problems.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Elune&cn=Hooty&gn=Eluneminati)

One thing I might change is perhaps the icy talons for ravenous dead and epidemic... Note I use DS as opposed to OB to imporve surviability.

thoughts?

AMS makes Steelbreakers Fusion Punch damage negligable. The dot should be removed immediately before it even has a chance to take effect.

Acclimation is only effective when taking consistant magic damage and is generally not worth the 3 points.

Satorri
06-26-2009, 07:13 AM
Hooty, AMS that Fusion Punch on CD, and let your dispeller know that it's coming.

The shield makes the hit do very little damage and blocks the dot from being applied. Like Inaara said, it should be dispelled instantaneously or you can and will die very rapidly (on 25-man anyway, 10 is a little less severe).

As for Acclimation, it is not particularly effective against sparse magic attacks (more than 60 sec apart), moderately effective against more frequent ones (30 sec or less), and very effective against anything that comes less than 18 sec apart. Against Steelbreaker it'd be fantastic since his aura will tick it up to a full 3 stacks before you even take a fusion punch. One stack is 50 resistance which is nothing whatsoever to scoff at, the tricky part is you get the buff in reaction to the damage taken. Can anyone confirm if it applies to the initial hit? If it does then I'd put it higher still in value.

As for Icy Talons, that is only of value if you do not have a shaman with Windfury totem for you, if you do (and more so if it's improved), you can completely drop those points and Epidemic is a fine place to put them.

lyd
06-26-2009, 07:51 AM
I find acclimation to be very useful. I often look up over the course of a fight to see a 3 stack of Acclimation resistance on my buff bar. It's definitely situational, but overall it's been worth the 3 points for me. I can think of several fights where it's come in handy in Ulduar. OT/Add duty on Ignis is a great example.

HootyElune
06-26-2009, 08:12 AM
Thanks for the info. One more question does standard icy talons stack with windfury totum?

Attempted Council of Iron again last night. Anti magic shield negates one fusion punch completely. Unfortunately we didnt have our usual priest healer so dispels were a little slow... outlook not good.

Another question I know Unbreakable armor absorbs magic damage but does Icebound fortitude? or is this only physical damage.

I only ask because we could heal through the first two fusion punches but the third was an issue.

Also can anyone confirm if there is a chance to dodge the fusion punch (i.e. the inital hit?) I believe I saw that a couple of times.

Esch
06-26-2009, 08:46 AM
Thanks for the info. One more question does standard icy talons stack with windfury totum?

Negative. For the most part, DKs & shaman provide the same buffs, thus they won't stack.


Attempted Council of Iron again last night. Anti magic shield negates one fusion punch completely. Unfortunately we didnt have our usual priest healer so dispels were a little slow... outlook not good.

Another question I know Unbreakable armor absorbs magic damage but does Icebound fortitude? or is this only physical damage.

I only ask because we could heal through the first two fusion punches but the third was an issue.

Also can anyone confirm if there is a chance to dodge the fusion punch (i.e. the inital hit?) I believe I saw that a couple of times.

I'm not sure about dodging, honestly, but I suspect you could. I wouldn't rely on it in any form given the amount of damage you're taking with Steelbreaker up (his AoE damage, plus direct damage on you, plus whatever else Brundir/Runemaster are tossing out).

As for tanking Steelbreaker, IBF does work on Fusion Punch (or any other magical effect). I try to run AMS for the first punch, IBF the second, AMZ the third, then AMS & IBF again. I assume my dispeller will be in the middle of a heal, hit a lag spike or out of range, thus I want to make sure that Fusion Punch doesn't slaughter me. Frankly, Steelbreaker is the kind of boss I think a DK should be 'ideal' for, where anyone can tank it - but a DK just has the 'perfect' tools.

Satorri
06-26-2009, 09:34 AM
IBF works on all damage physical or magical. For some reason I had thought Unbreakable Armor was only physical, but I may have been mixing it too much with Savage Defense.

I am 95% sure you cannot avoid the fusion punch, however you can avoid the melee swings (and he seems to swing immediately after Fusion Punching, like he saves up his swing on the cast time). I usually AMS the first (and every 3rd after that), IBF the second, then pop avoidance trinkets and Mark of Blood/Gift of the Naaru after that usually with Vamp Blood. The avoidance has never caused him to miss me, but it does reduce all his other incoming melee damage after the strike hits so I'm easier to heal while the dot is dispelled (I have a dedicated priest who just spams dispel after the strike hits, usually I don't even see the debuff appear).

And I agree, AMS is a huge benefit to tanking Steelbreaker, all other CDs aside that makes DKs a shoe-in.

Molohk
06-26-2009, 09:52 AM
UA has been tweaked too many times, it was 25% armor, then got changed to 5% physical damage, then got changed to full dmg reduction based on armor.

HootyElune
06-26-2009, 10:48 AM
UA has been tweaked too many times, it was 25% armor, then got changed to 5% physical damage, then got changed to full dmg reduction based on armor.

Currently based on 26k armor it absorbs 1400 dmg per hit or 1680 with glyph.

Added bonus is currently with the armor benifit (shaman crits etc) it absorbs ~2k per hit.

Edgewalker
06-28-2009, 04:50 PM
If you are doing Steelbreaker last and still having a problem with Fusion punch, Unholy with Spell Deflection/VoTW/Magic Supression is really your best bet for maximum mit. Agro is a total non factor, survival is the key, and by 10-20% his 60,000 damage rune punches are shaved down fast with the additional percentages.
If you are doing Steelbreaker first, really blood should be your optimal spec, glyphed with Vamp Blood. AMS - IBF - Vamp - AMS - IBF should take you to Steelbreaker being damned close to dead. If it's really an issue you can use an avoidance trinket or two and Army of the Dead an additional rune punch which allows another cooldown reset. At the end of the day though, your healers just need to get better if it's causing consistent tank death.

Acclimation still isn't worth it. Rune Punch can't miss, Acclimation only helps with his aura damage or rune punch ticks (which should NEVER happen in any scenario), and Unbreakable Armor is still an absolutely awful tanking cooldown. Guile of Gorefiend doesn't make up for WoTN and Vamp. Blood, or Magic Suppression and Bone Shield.

Satorri
06-29-2009, 06:53 AM
Well, Acclimation is a fine damage reducer against the punch, but it requires you to go deep into Frost to get it which means you may lose out on the (superior?) buffs from Spell Deflection and Magic Suppression.

Actually, as I write this, I'm wondering just what is the best value for surviving those massive single shots. They come about 10-15 seconds apart, and provided your dps is cooking you shouldn't have to survive more than 6.

Spell Deflection is pretty easy to gauge. Parry % chance to reduce the hit by 45% with a 13 pt investment in Blood (probably just 3 pts more than usual if you are like me and never leave off Bladed Armor). Let's say you have 20% parry in raid buffs (maybe a little low for someone trying hardmode), then you'll statistically avoid one of the punches almost for sure, so that's ~7.5% damage reduction over the whole fight (hopefully it doesn't happen when you have AMS up, if you don't have Magic Suppression).

Magic Suppression is a 6% always on damage reducer so it'll take the sting out of his aura and his punches by 6% down the line. The AMS buff will probably not get much of its full value since your AMS is capped at 50% of your health. In the most generous situations that is only 25k removed, but the value is still there if it can be used it will be.

Acclimation is a bit trickier because of the nature of resistance. First, the stack will be at a full 3 the entire fight, that means you'll be mitigating the aura and the strikes with 150 more resistance. If you only have the nature resist aura of a totem or Aspect of the Wild (I don't know anyone packing Nature resist gear for this), this will put your total resistance at 280 (130 without acclimation, we'll call that baseline). We'll not get into the mess of partial resist chances yet, just pure mitigation from 130 resistance is about 23% nature damage reduction. 280 is about 50% reduction, for a grand total gained of 27% in pure mitigation of Nature damage. Then you add in the chances of partial resists. Very briefly, 130 resistance will get you about 45% chance to get a 1/4 resist, and the other 50% will be split fairly evenly between 1/2 resist and unresisted. 280 resistance will push the numbers to read more like, 44% 1/2 resist, 20% 1/4 resist, 24% 3/4 resist, and well less than 10% should go through unresisted.

Based on that, I'd actually say Acclimation is the single biggest buff we can get, though the question is whether we can comfortably compound it with anything else (I'm fairly certain you cannot reach it and Magic Suppression). Unbreakable Armor is NOT a CD for use against big hits so it'll be fairly unnoticeable against the Fusion Punches, but using that and avoidance trinkets on CD or around Punches may ease the underlying physical beating baseline.

HootyElune
06-29-2009, 12:33 PM
I just did this on the weekend.

AMS is must. #1 proirty absorbs 100% FP and the dot (the pally loved me saving 9% of his mana for this) #2 is IBF sufficent to absorb dmg. #3 is UA and dodge trinket (UA absorbs some of it) but it really hurts should you get FP & hit at the same time. #4 AMS. #5 parry trinket if IBF not cooled down, #6 parry trinket\IBF (dependant on #5), #7 AMS.

Hopefully by now you have downed steelbreaker. If not plan for overheals. for the next couple of FP.

But agree on Acclimation for this fight. When it was stacking it reduced the dmg nicely :)