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Taiiga
06-08-2009, 11:41 AM
I help run a pretty small, casual raiding guide on my server. We really have just enough reliable players to run one 10 man group. Unfortunately within the past week both our offtank and one of our healers left the guild, leaving us a little starved at the moment. We've just now started raiding Ulduar but because of these recent guild quites we've been forced to pug these last two slots. We've pugged before in Naxx and it was no problem but now in Ulduar with everyone wanting new gear we ran into an issue last night.

The way we've been doing loot rolls is 1 main spec roll and 1 off spec roll. Its been working really well even when we have to pug a slot. But now we've run into an issue with dual specs.

The DK offtank that we pugged was technically not a tank in his main spec/gear set but he asked to tank last night. When a tanking belt dropped he rolled on it and won, beating out the main tank (a pally who's main spec is actually prot). Anyway the pally got very upset that the dk had received the belt because she felt although he was asked to tank tonight he shouldnt be considered tanking as his main spec.

So I guess the question im asking is: What do you all consider to be the main spec to be? The first spec listed under your talent window or the spec you were asked to be using that night of raiding?

minrog
06-09-2009, 03:49 AM
One of my character's has a PVP discipline spec as the first one in his window but all he does is PVE Shadow DPS. I started out a long time ago with Holy as the main spec but found most folks wanted me to DPS so I just changed the Holy one to Discipline so I didn't have to re-purchase my Shadow glyphs.

You brought in a PUG and asked him to tank the instance for you. I would say you made the right call in that situation though I understand that it harmed your own guild's progression. If you ask someone to come in and tank for you I would say it is unfair to deny them tanking gear that drops. The silver lining is that you kept your word to the Death Knight and there are many raids that wouldn't do that. You might be able to end up with him in your guild, at least my experience suggests he will be positively inclined.

Stephanius
06-09-2009, 03:52 AM
For my guild 'main spec' refers to the function that member focusses on: tanking, damage or healing. If you have someone use their off-spec for a particular raid, it doesn't change the fact that they will be using their raid-spec most of the time, making gear for their off-spec not contribute to the raid.

Of course, when you are have pugs involved considerations about future benefit for the guild from gear are mostly academic.

To make effective use of drops, persistent rather than raid-specific definitions of 'main-spec' makes more sense and is less likely to upset people.

In the interest of fairness, you will need to make sure that everyone is aware what the rules are at the start of the run, this includes declaring the main/off spec for pugs with the respective consquences.

Cookie
06-11-2009, 05:46 AM
When I make pugs, I tell people that their current spec will be considered their main spec, and if it's something else they should say it now. Everyone only has one spec that's considered their main spec when rolls start.

You should've talked to the dk first and decided what spec he would be using his mainspec rolls for, but since you didn't, it wasn't wrong to give him the belt since he was tanking for that run after all.


Although if it was a full guild one, I've found that prioritising like this works best:
Main spec > Dual spec asked for by the guild > Offspec
Since in Ulduar, there's quite a few fights which require you to stack dps and lose healers and tanks (ex Hodir), so on these fights, it's nice to give the healers/tanks who switch regularly their offspec dps gear before others.

loquatious
06-11-2009, 06:01 AM
When I make pugs, I tell people that their current spec will be considered their main spec, and if it's something else they should say it now. Everyone only has one spec that's considered their main spec when rolls start.



This. Of course everyone realizes that if a DPS item had dropped he would have rolled need on it as well.

Daavos
06-11-2009, 12:04 PM
"What do you all consider to be the main spec to be?"

Only dance with the date you brought to the party.

If I'm dps in Vault, I won't roll against a warrior tank for tier gear, even though I really want to item. But that's my personal choice.

If you asking to a dps to tank, they should have every right to tanking items on drops. Maybe they'll like tanking. Remember some hybrids do tank and dps 50% of the tiime are expect to preform both rolls with better then average ablity.


Ours guild rules are a bit complicated.

In pug raids and guild 10 mans with go with rolls.

For guild raids we use a swap auction system.

You generate points by attending raids and when other players bid on items.

The opeing bid is 75 and raises by a minum of 15 points. If item goes for 250 points everyone else in the raid gets 10 points (rounding down).

I like this system because because when you have to pay for something you tend to make a informed decision if you really need the item, as there is no limit on the amount an item go for. Bidding wars tend to happen and you don't know how many points other guild member have.

For 25 Teir Gear we us simple rolls for raiding status guild members. To attain raid status, a new guild application has to attend 3 raids in row and maintain the mininum raid attendance. Alts are not considered raid status. Offspec is consider raid status. We limit 1 tier tolken per raid night.

Dhalphir
06-12-2009, 06:57 PM
In a PuG, you choose your main spec at the start of the run, independently of what spec you're running with that night.

In a guild run, your main spec is whatever you were recruited as.

Genova
06-15-2009, 04:00 PM
We use good old fashioned DKP with set prices on items. No pugs ever, and if we dont know your mainspec and your in our guild, there is something wrong :) Loot should be simple and effective, not take 30 minutes per boss. You loot to raid, not raid to get loot.

Molohk
06-15-2009, 04:17 PM
I handle guild main specs and pug main specs very differently. In the guild, everyone knows what your main spec is, and that's how you roll regardless of having to fill in for offset roles. In PuGs, since you can't really keep track of people's real main specs, and to keep rolling under control, your main spec is the role that you were requested to fill for that raid, that means that if you ask a DPS DK to come tanking for your PuG, he will roll on tanking gear as main spec and DPS gear as off-spec unless there was a previous agreement with the raid leader to the contrary.

Did your MT expected to be the only person rolling on tanking loot, just because the OT wasn't a full time tank? That's the risk you run when pugging, you run the risk of having your main raiders losing loot to people who may or may not take advantage of the item they won. Did the OT DK expect to roll on both DPS and Tank loot as main spec, because that wouldn't be very realistic either.

That's how I (and most ppl on my server) handle PuGs, and those rules only really apply unless the RL states otherwise. I've been to semi-pugs like yours, where 3/4 of the raid are guildies and the raid leader clearly states from the start that they'll be running open rolls (main spec first) for everything except a specific item that their MT really needed. The thing is you have to be very vocal about looting rules, from the start of the raid, don't assume people understand your rules, because when rules aren't clear people have a tendency to bend rules and rationalize in their benefit.

Insahnity
06-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Another method is to have PuGs declare WHAT spec they roll for and hold them to it. That way before you start the raid, your tanks/healers/casters/melee know how many others are gunning for their gear. Many people get their offspec gear first and run offspec in the hopes of getting their mainspec gear (ex tanks doing melee dps or healing until they get a good tank set).

IMO, having raiding tanks/healers/DPS of all types and classes, Tanks are the hardest to gear (Since its VERY unforgiving), followed by healers, then DPS. A sub-optimal DPS in 25 man (1 out of 18 or so DPS) isn't as noticeable as a low healer (1 out of 5 healers), and lowbie tanks don't even make raids until they are very well geared, as one bad tank out of two is VERY noticeable.

Failing that, pugs have to follow a rigid, if non-counterproductive set of rules. If a desired spec for loot rules is not declared, most people's mainspec is the spec they were requeste to come as. If somebody fills mutliple rolls (for example, heals hard fights and DPSes other fights), either you stick to one spec, or you get to loot based on the spec you were on THAT FIGHT. This is counterproductive to gear progression, but it is the most fair and loot-drama-reduced scenario in pug situations.

Also as mentioned before, DKP is good, or go with suicide kings style loot.