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Pruke
06-06-2009, 11:02 PM
I have considered changing my main character to my DK. Lots of reasons but those really don't apply to this question.

We currently have an arms warrior in the raid and before making the final decision I discussed with him what it would mean for him. That being him putting up/keeping up sunder armor and demo-shout, since he has imp-commanding he does that already.

Needless to say he was pissed, not that I can't understand it would be frustrating to add to someone elses burden.

The question I have is this.

How bad is it to ask a DPS warrior to put up 5 sunders at the start of the fight and expect them to keep the 5 stack up?

Same goes for demo shout?

I believe a rogue can do expose armor (at a dps loss to them) which is the same as sunder armor. Although I could be wrong about this.

Also I seem to recall there was some dps class who had a demo type skill or spell that replaced demo shout.

Anyone have any thoughts on this please post so I can make an informed decision.

Thanks

sicness
06-07-2009, 12:31 AM
Tell him to suck it up and deal with it, part of being a dps warrior. If he doesn't want to replace him with someone who will imo. As arms it is a bit harder to keep sunders up due to the lack of free GCD's, but with the benefit it gives the raid there's no excuse not to. A feral druid can put up the demo roar, but they have to be in bear form to do so. And while a rogue can expose armor (which doesn't stack with sunders btw), it hurts their dps quite a bit to keep it up as it uses combo points, moreso than a warrior stacking sunders and then reapplying every 30 seconds. All in all between demo, sunders and t-clap just tell him he's responsible for the debuffs on the boss more than his own personal dps, any good arms warrior should know that.

Taank
06-07-2009, 01:22 AM
I hear what you are saying about the sunders, but me personally I have the devastate glyph that applies two sunders per hit, and my rotation during the encounter is:

1. Charge
2. Shockwave
3. Thunderclap (que shield block)
4. Shield Slam
5. Devastate, Devastate (4 total sunders)
6. Heroic Strike (cleave if there are more than one mob)
7. Demo Shout
8. Taunt
9. Repeat, but with only one devastate to reapply a 5th sunder.

While I am caught in between cool downs I heroic strike for threat. So in my case I wouldn't see the need for another warrior to do my job for me, now if he had the better demo shout, then certainly. BUT...that is stictly my opinion.

Ciderhelm
06-07-2009, 01:24 AM
Neither is bad. The only severe loss comes at the point when you have the Arms Warrior pick up Imp Demo Shout talents. With that and Commanding Presence, it eats directly into their damage output.

Wukki
06-07-2009, 01:41 AM
Armor Debuffs Major (20%): Sunder Armor (Warrior), Expose Armor (Rogue), Acid Spit (Worm Pet, Hunter)

Armor Debuffs Minor (5%): Faerie Fire (Druid), Curse of Weakness (Warlock), Sting (Wasp Pet, Hunter)

Attack Power Debuff: Curse of Weakness (Lock), Demoralizing Roar (Bear Druid). Demoralizing Shout (Warrior)

Maybe if you have a feral druid or a lock, you can have them take over the attack power debuff? :)

Muffin Man
06-07-2009, 01:57 AM
Sicness, in this day and age I have a hard time believing anyone other than a tank is responsible for the attack speed debuff (especially since that arms warrior isn't going to be talented for it and all 4 of the tanking classes should be). But re: sunder anyways I agree with you, demo shout is trickier depending if you expect him to spec into that *and* commanding presence as Cider points out.

And I was actually going to thread necro another thread on this subject since I spent some quality time with the target dummies today (the lvl 80 one since I didn't want spanxecute to ruin my results).

What I did was I spent 3 rounds with a target dummy, the first and third I put up sunders, the second I did.

I wanted to see how much of a personal dps loss it would be, as well as learn to sunder as arms in case I ever had to do it.

Here are the dps numbers deflated from me watching the bleeds tick away after I finished 2 battle shouts worth of fighting (~9 minutes):
1 - 3141
2 - 2903
3 - 3255

Over a fight that long, that *should* have minimized lucky SD procs and crits. Although looking over the recount percentages, try 2 had lower crit rates for both melee (36, 28, 36) and mortal strike (42, 31, 37). This is slightly offset by the higher execute (26, 40, 37) crit rates and SD procs (45, 56, 49).

Also, I didn't bladestorm or shattering throw. I kept up Battle Shout and had no on-use trinkets.

So the obvious conclusion is if you don't have a warrior tank and your raid goes you (warrior), mage, mage, warlock, spriest.... it's still a net benefit to throw up sunders.

This actually makes sense since according to Simple ArPen calculator (http://eu-warrior.com/arpen.html) a naked arms warriors gains 9.27% damage from full sunders. At least at my gear level, even with the t7 bonus slam doesn't make up much of my overall damage (was 7.5%, 6.9% and 7.4% on my 3 attempts), so cutting one out here and there to throw up sunders is an overall win.

For completeness, I should find a sunder monkey while I wack a dummy to simulate what my dps would be with a prot warrior. But the choice is really between no sunders and making the arms warrior do it.

Some of my observations from this, so incoming wall of text.

My non-crit hits went up ~100 across the board. However the real shock was my crit hits went up much, much higher than that. Here are the max normal/crit strikes from MS:
1 - 2587 / 6097
2 - 2402 / 5417
3 - 2637 / 6251

I suppose try 3 is higher than try one since I got luckier matching up Mirror of Truth and Berserking procs together.

For fun here are my highest normal/crit damage for
melee (glance/hit/crit):
1 - 1660 / 1859 / 3964
2 - 1485 / 1770 / 3423
3 - 1743 / 1870 / 4186

and OP:
1 - 2170 / 5306
2 - 1822 / 4837
3 - 2111 / 5284

I'll admit that showing the max damage with and without sunder armor is a bit of a straw man, in that it shows the extreme end of the damage difference. Unfortunately I can't show the minimum damage meaningfully because those would have occured with at most 2 sunders up for the sunder attempts.

Last, these are very long fights, but the dps numbers with recount open seemed to stabalize after a minute or two; that is after the sunders were up, DW's was consistently ticking and I was in a good place rage-wise.

The first attempt I opened with a really lucky string of SD procs and crits, so I started flying dps-wise. The third attempt I was overly aggressive with throwing up sunders so I rage starved myself and started lower dps-wise. But based on gut feeling, I don't think you'd notice much of a dps loss if you replaced a slam with a sunder every 6 - 12 seconds (then every 30 seconds when you reach 5).

Brontes
06-07-2009, 06:00 AM
It's a question of whether you need to get one player to cover all the debuffs, or if you can share out the pain. If you really ask one arms warrior to cover all possible warrior debuffs (tc, demo, sunders, commanding) he's going to be righteously angry.

The thing is that arms warriors don't have free cycles in their rotations, unlike fury warriors, so each debuff cast is a significant loss to personal dps. Take a 5 minute fight. I estimate 38 buffs/debuffs to apply throughout the course of the fight. 5 initial sunders (no waiting on this, raid dps depends on sunders, so that's in the first 10 seconds), and 3 more every 30 seconds, as well as one commanding refresh.

That's getting close to 20% of the yellow damage attacks being replaced, or about a 10% loss, moving that player eight spots down on the meters. Worse, if the added complication affects his performance. It's not horrible as far as the raid is concerned, but it will be enough that that arms warrior is likely to start getting subbed for "not performing" -- even a raid leader who asks that player to do the debuffs is likely to get to the end and just read down the meters. (I catch myself doing this as well -- I wonder why the moonkin is never high on the meters, and then realize that I asked her to raid heal for 20 seconds of the fight.)

You can lighten the burden in several ways. Thunderclap should be from the tank, as mentioned. Do you have a fury warrior or a combat rogue handy? Either can cover sunders with no real loss in dps, since they have free attack cycles. It's very fair for the arms warrior to cover command and demo, but realize that you aren't optimizing debuffs, since they won't have improved demo.

If your rogues aren't combat, then alternate who does sunder per fight, rather than dumping it all on one guy.

Pruke
06-07-2009, 06:23 AM
We don't actually have an improved demo shout in the raid now. It seems to be fine without it. I had done some research on other raid make ups and it seemed they didn't have any tank classes spec'd into imp demo in the raid. I know it has it's advantages and perhaps my research was on to narrow of a raid window.

I can see how asking an arms warrior to spec into it would blow their DPS. Also it makes sense to have one of the warlocks use weakness. Then use the arms warrior or the rogue to cover the sunder armor.

I'm sure this has been discussed but this kind of makes bring the player not the class a bit tuffer if the raid decides not to use a prot-warrior in some way. It seems that a warlock would loose a decent amount of DPS to use a non-damage curse to use weakness. I also wonder what it would do to a combat rogues dps to spec into expose armor.

sicness
06-07-2009, 09:31 AM
If there's only one warrior and he's dps spec with no druid tank then that warrior should be responsible for demo shout, improved or not, honestly I wouldn't expect him to be spec'd into it. Thunderclap though would depend on who's tanking, as a dk and prot paly can put the same debuff up so that should be covered. But still, if he's the only one available to apply any of those debuffs then he should without question. When I spec dps for some hard modes where we need only one tank, even though I'm fury spec, I make sure I put all those debuffs up except thunderclap, since I have a paly MT and he does that passively. I can feel his pain though, that's part of why I spec'd fury so I'd have an easier time putting those debuffs up while maintaining dps.

Muffin Man
06-07-2009, 12:39 PM
Thunderclap though would depend on who's tanking, as a dk and prot paly can put the same debuff up so that should be covered.

Druids should have infected wounds talented which does the same thing. Which is why I said no tank should need a warrior to do it for them. I'm probably wrong, but I believe the only dps that willing puts up the attack speed debuff would be frost DKs.

Also to the people saying rogues should do expose armor... no they shouldn't. They need their combo points for keeping up other things.

Curse of Weakness is a pretty big dps loss for locks as well. Just compare Curse of Agony to Slam and remember that a lock loses 100% of his Curse of Agonies to keep up Curse of Weakness. Not to mention if that locks sometimes put up Curse of Elements for the raid, which would be a huge dps loss compared to one Slam/30 seconds.

RPZip
06-07-2009, 12:42 PM
You don't really need to spec into EA to use it; it's usually better for Mutilate Rogues to cover it than Combat, honestly.

Sunder is a pain for a DPS Warrior, especially if there's only one, but it's also something you just have to deal with. If the fight is short (Yogg's brain, XT's heart) it's almost always better to have a Rogue apply EA than it is for a Warrior to go for 5x Sunders due to the speed of application and the smaller cost, so do keep that in mind; where Sunder pulls ahead is in fights that are longer than ~2m, as the lower upkeep cost (1 GCD every 30) begins to outweigh the higher initial investment (5 GCDs).

You can't really expect him to bring Imp. Demo Shout and Imp. Commanding, though, and I've found that Imp. Commanding is almost always more worthwhile.

Wars
06-07-2009, 12:46 PM
I had some experience doing this in my last naxx alt pug on my warrior with the fury dual spec. It was a caster centric group, but the DK, and myself needed the boost. Expending five GCDs in my first 3 rotations, WW, BT, Sunder, Sunder, go with priority, It killed my dps at least for that starting portion.

RPZip
06-07-2009, 12:53 PM
I had some experience doing this in my last naxx alt pug on my warrior with the fury dual spec. It was a caster centric group, but the DK, and myself needed the boost. Expending five GCDs in my first 3 rotations, WW, BT, Sunder, Sunder, go with priority, It killed my dps at least for that starting portion.

Depending upon how much melee DPS you have, this may or may not be a good idea.

If it's a 25-man, the DPS boost out of getting the Sunders stacked ASAP outweighs the personal damage loss. If it's a 10-man without much melee DPS it can be more flexible.

sicness
06-07-2009, 02:15 PM
Druids should have infected wounds talented which does the same thing. Which is why I said no tank should need a warrior to do it for them. I'm probably wrong, but I believe the only dps that willing puts up the attack speed debuff would be frost DKs.

Also to the people saying rogues should do expose armor... no they shouldn't. They need their combo points for keeping up other things.

Curse of Weakness is a pretty big dps loss for locks as well. Just compare Curse of Agony to Slam and remember that a lock loses 100% of his Curse of Agonies to keep up Curse of Weakness. Not to mention if that locks sometimes put up Curse of Elements for the raid, which would be a huge dps loss compared to one Slam/30 seconds.

Ah thanks, forgot about druid 'thunder clap'. And completely agree, rogues and locks lose a lot more dps than a warrior stacking sunders if they put up their armor debuff. However, i believe a lock's does stack with sunders although I'm not sure it does with faerie fire. Whether you think it's annoying or not to put up you should still be doing it, 'cause once it's up it's a lot easier to reapply every 30 seconds than EA.

The 10 or so seconds it takes to stack up sunders and the one GCD every 30 seconds is nothing when looking at dps loss comparing it to the dps increase the melee and hunters will get. So at the very least sunders should be going up no matter what. The only time I'd say it's arguable to not do so is short fights when a warrior is the only melee and you have a prot paly tanking.

swelt
06-10-2009, 11:21 AM
Good discussion on this topic in the Rogue EJ forums: The Major Armor debuff - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t56227-major_armor_debuff/)

The discussion focuses on the difference between sunder (apply with 5 GCDs then 1 per 30s) and expose (apply spending 1 GCD and X combo points for fixed duration full effect). The longer the fight goes on, the better sunder is vs expose. For things like XT-002's heart or fights when you are rapidly changing target, expose armor is 'better'.

Of course this all presupposes no prot warrior tank.

I dual spec dps / tank. I switched my dps offspec to fury because in my 10 man group I was finding my fall back role (sunders, interrupts and demo shout) a lot less hassle to than as arms because you are more or less GCD locked and every GCD spent on a utility button is a damage button not mashed.

Kalbitang
06-10-2009, 03:10 PM
From what I've read, Fury generally has a few more free GCDs than Arms does. Another issue might be fear of perception about his DPS. There are plenty of people who only look at DPS meters. If you and the other guild leadership are smart enough to recognize that his personal numbers will drop and not replace him for "being bad," then hopefully it's not a problem.

Muffin Man
06-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Look at the recount testing I posted above. An arms warrior has a dps gain if he is upkeeping sunders by himself versus if he's slamming and there are no sunders. Of course, if someone else could do it instead of him, then it's a dps loss for him... but outside of prot warriors there really isn't anyone else who would other than your friendly fury warrior (and even then you should help him get to 5 stacks).

Superspy23
06-10-2009, 03:57 PM
The one thing that I haven't seen addressed is the viability of the hunter bringing a worm pet that can apply the same major armor debuff. How bad/good would this work?

Airowird
06-15-2009, 03:38 AM
The one thing that I haven't seen addressed is the viability of the hunter bringing a worm pet that can apply the same major armor debuff. How bad/good would this work?Unfortunately, this requires the Hunter in question to spec BM AND get a Tenacity (tanking) specced pet.

Although this is possible, going with a Hunter doing Major Armor debuff over e.g. a Fury Warrior is almost guaranteed to be a DPS loss.

swelt
06-15-2009, 06:23 AM
Similar thing with Warlocks and curse of weakness. It sounds like a simple thing to "ask a lock to get improved curse of weakness" but the talent is in tier 2 affliction. The only lock builds that easily pick that up are affliction locks... but affliction locks get a lot out of their curse slot and switching to curse of weakness will have them losing non-trivial DPS.