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View Full Version : what weapon enchant should i get?



Thad
06-06-2009, 05:59 PM
so i'm trying to figure out what weapon enchant i should stick with. i've tried many different ones but can't decide which is best and i keep hearing different things. so which one of these should i get:

Blood draining
Mongoose
Titanium Weapon chain
Accuracy

Lyco
06-07-2009, 07:21 AM
When Progressing in Ulduar:
Blood Draining

When you feel your TPS isn't what it should be and your survival is high enough:
Accuracy

I think that's a pretty solid answer.

Thad
06-07-2009, 10:15 AM
alright sounds good.

Evereghalo
06-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Depends on your Class,

Warrior: Threat - Accuracy, Survivability - Blood Draining,

Paladin: Threat - Accuracy, Survivability - Mongoose,

- Reasons: Blood Draining appears to proc of bleeds, and the 15-5-51 Build seems to play well into that. As for Paladins, 1) The theory crafting behind causing an AD jump, which is enough for me. 2) No Bleeds so will only proc off of being low. 3) Mongoose still keeps up a good proc rate.

Lizana
06-07-2009, 02:29 PM
- Reasons: Blood Draining appears to proc of bleeds, and the 15-5-51 Build seems to play well into that. As for Paladins, 1) The theory crafting behind causing an AD jump, which is enough for me. 2) No Bleeds so will only proc off of being low. 3) Mongoose still keeps up a good proc rate.

1.) It has been proven mathematically that Blood draining will never decrease Time to Live value. At worse it will not increase your time to live.


TLDR Summary:

* While Blood Draining can push us out of AD range, and thus cause "leapfrogging" that kills us, reducing our TTL in some situations, it also adds TTL to other situations where we were in AD range but had slightly less HP than the size of the incoming hits after AD mitigation is factored in.
* As a result, at least in this simple analysis, Blood Draining will never reduce your average TTL, assuming that your "starting health" obeys a flat probability density function. So at least in that respect, the naysayers were wrong.
* Yes, the above is an unreliable (and probably incorrect) assumption, but without a more involved model of how healing effects change the probability density function, it will be hard to come up with anything rigorous. Empirical data might help here.
* Despite the fact that blood draining won't reduce your survivability, it also doesn't do anything to increase it for very large boss hits. Unfortunately, very large boss hits are often what kills a tank, making this an expensive enchant that works best in the cases we don't need it, and worst in the cases we do.

The above quote is taken from Maintankadin • View topic - Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23262) . So on average it will not kill you more than it will save you. In fact it will save you more often that it will kill you.


* Adding healing to the equation extends the range in which Blood Draining is useful.
* A good rule of thumb is (AD_Threshold + Incoming_Heals - Boss_Hit_size) > 0. The bigger the value, the better the enchant is.
* Blood Draining never reduces your TTL. The extra AD Leapfrogs it causes will always be at least offset by the extra AD saves it causes.

2.) It stays up just fine and stacks quite quickly with just auto attacks and normal attacks. You know the same thing Mongoose procs off of... I am a warrior tank that doesnt put rend up most of the time, and i dont have DW spec, and you know what i have a 5 stack very quickly and can maintain that stack on any boss fight i have tanked so far...

3.) Mongoose has a worse proc rate at 80 than at 70, and the dodge it gives is subject to DR.

Thad
06-07-2009, 09:46 PM
so i don't get what you're saying. are you saying blood draining is worth getting or that it isn't?

Lizana
06-07-2009, 09:51 PM
If you are a MT on progression content Blood draining is very worth it to get it, unless your are a druid or a DK

Tarigar
06-07-2009, 09:56 PM
I am using bladeward and from my reports it has about a 20-25% uptime. just an fyi.

Here are my reports. I tanked on all bosses but Hodir.
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/sqechdwawylbs)

Thad
06-07-2009, 10:15 PM
If you are a MT on progression content Blood draining is very worth it to get it, unless your are a druid or a DK

alright well i do mt on alot of fights so i guess i'll stick with it for now.

Lizana
06-07-2009, 10:35 PM
I am using bladeward and from my reports it has about a 20-25% uptime. just an fyi.

Here are my reports. I tanked on all bosses but Hodir.
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/sqechdwawylbs)

From your WWS, you only parried 38 times due to blade ward. 38 times in 4 hours.

For a "avoidance" enchant it doesn't give a lot of avoidance...

Heres my WWS report from tonight.. As a note, i only tanked the big guys on razor, and tanked the boss for a whole about 35 seconds till i got out of range of our healers. That fight and trash for X002 was all the tanking i did... Blood Draining applied itself 58 times with zero bleeds.. And it healed me 5 times...5 times for a total tank time of less than 25 min is pretty dang great...

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/s1rnlygkotxbi?a=x18000000048af05#abilities)

kyle46
06-09-2009, 08:57 AM
Bladeward prevented 440,000 damage over the course of the night on bosses assuming the bosses hit for approx 22k. For blood draining to do the same it would have to proc 200 times with a 5 stack. Bassically to do that you need to fall below 35% health 200 times in a night. That's a few too many times more in a night than I'd like to see my health drop below 35%.

Lizana
06-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Bladeward prevented 440,000 damage over the course of the night on bosses assuming the bosses hit for approx 22k. For blood draining to do the same it would have to proc 200 times with a 5 stack. Bassically to do that you need to fall below 35% health 200 times in a night. That's a few too many times more in a night than I'd like to see my health drop below 35%.

Bladeward did not prevent anything, for all we know everyone of the parries that bladeward proc was up for, would have happened even if bladeward had not proced. Your basically having a chance on hit to have a small increased chance to avoid a hit. Also when you consider the overhealing it causes...

And one last thing, that many procs in a whole night, you have to remember it can proc on trash as well.. You may waste a parry on a 2k hit that you could have blocked anyways...

kyle46
06-10-2009, 08:05 AM
I acctually went through the WWS logs and figured out how many blade ward procs on Bosses it was significantly higher over the whole night. And as for over healing teach your healers to cancel cast or stack more regen. All avoidance is going to make overhealing go up more if your healers don't stop casting. That doesn't mean avoidance is bad. It means your healers need to be better.

Also blood draining in the optimal circumstances will almost never save you on a boss that would otherwise kill you. If you have 44k health raid buffed blood draining only procs when you are under 15.4k health. With a heal of 2200 that brings you to 17.6k health. Every boss in ulduar will hit you for more than 17.6k health. You still need a large heal to live through the next hit. Optimal circumstances for bladeward it can save you by boosting your avoidance in that situation to parry the next attack so your healer can get that big heal off. At 19% parry with a one stack of blade ward it bring your parry chance up by about 4%. This is an extreme example but the extreme is what kills your tank in ulduar.

As a side note blood draining can get you killed as a paladin in a case where you would have lived by pushing your over the Agrent Defender threshhold allowing the boss to leapfrog the 30% damage reduction. Sometimes it can push you up high enough to live through the incoming hit but as a personal prefence I avoid things that sometimes save me and somtimes get me killed.

Lizana
06-10-2009, 01:28 PM
As a side note blood draining can get you killed as a paladin in a case where you would have lived by pushing your over the Agrent Defender threshhold allowing the boss to leapfrog the 30% damage reduction. Sometimes it can push you up high enough to live through the incoming hit but as a personal prefence I avoid things that sometimes save me and somtimes get me killed.

This has been proven wrong... as of about a month ago...


Also blood draining is not supposed to keep you alive by itself. Instead it gives your healers a buffer to keep you alive. They dont have to have the largest heal always landing to save you they might be able to save you with a insta heal and then they have the time to use a larger heal.

metalhodo
06-12-2009, 09:36 AM
so, ive read the whole thread, and im still confused..
so, simple question:
would blood draining help a pala tank more than lets say, mongoose?

Lizana
06-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Blood draining is a great EH enchant. It is very highly recommended by many top pally theorycrafters if you are a MT on progression level content. Mongoose is an avoidance enchant. You cannot directly compare the two.

Thad
06-26-2009, 11:17 PM
okay so I've been looking over logs from the last month and blood draining does not seem to go off that often. don't get me wrong it is up 100% the time I'm tanking but the actual heal doesn't seem to go off that often which i suppose makes sense but still the most it ever goes off is on attempts where we've wiped.

this has led me to believe that this a useless enchant like 80% of the time. this may simply mean that i have great healers so i prolly shouldn't hold it against the enchant. so now I'm gonna need to figure out a more useful enchant to start using.

so i'm looking at either accuracy or mongoose and maybe blade warding if the general opinion on that one has changed or not. and ideas?

Tarigar
06-26-2009, 11:47 PM
I am an avid fan of Bladewarding>Mongoose. Bladewarding won't grant you the haste that mongoose will unless you get a parry. I had mongoose for awhile and wasn't impressed by it and Bladewarding is meh also.

Blood Draining I can't say as I have never used it. I do reccommend it however for tanks that have a low EH value. Especially if you are with in the 2 kill rule.

Thad
06-26-2009, 11:58 PM
so i'm hearing accuracy then?

Tarigar
06-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Go with which one you like... I think more importantly is you get it enchanted with anything but sp, int, and spr.

marklar
06-29-2009, 04:56 PM
okay so I've been looking over logs from the last month and blood draining does not seem to go off that often. don't get me wrong it is up 100% the time I'm tanking but the actual heal doesn't seem to go off that often which i suppose makes sense but still the most it ever goes off is on attempts where we've wiped.

this has led me to believe that this a useless enchant like 80% of the time. this may simply mean that i have great healers so i prolly shouldn't hold it against the enchant. so now I'm gonna need to figure out a more useful enchant to start using.


this is sort of a silly way to look at it. after all, you rarely use your last 500 stamina either, so why not just get rid of it in favor of something else?

EH is EH - it's there when you need it. whether or not you want to enchant for EH is up to you.

Porcell
06-30-2009, 03:52 AM
Bladeward did not prevent anything, for all we know everyone of the parries that bladeward proc was up for, would have happened even if bladeward had not proced. Your basically having a chance on hit to have a small increased chance to avoid a hit.

So, I keep seeing this over and over again. Since when do people look at one specific combat roll to evaluate something's performance.

Quick side example. You are a hit capped warlock with 30% crit. You add a new trinket that adds 2% crit. By the above argument, 98% of the time that trinket is doing absolutely nothing for you (30% of the time you would have crit anyway, and 68% of the time you would have hit anyway). Does that make this new 2% crit trinket useless? No, of course not; 2% of the time it will make a hit into a crit.

When Bladeward procs and you get the buff, you get 2.5% avoidance for 10 seconds (just taking a round number since it of course varies depending on your current parry and defense ratings, in my gear a 1-stack would be 2.58% parry after DR). Now regardless of if you "use" that 2.5% or not is irrelevent; you increased your avoidance by 2.5% for 10 seconds, so 2.5% of the time something that would have hit is now instead avoided.

Likewise for Mongoose, 120 extra agility (at my gear level) is an additional 1.07% dodge after DR for 15 seconds. Again, regardless of any specific combat roll in which I might have dodged anyway, I still gained that 1.07% avoidance. 99%, by some people's arguments, I'm not actually "using" the Mongoose proc and it is doing nothing for me, but it doesn't change the fact that it increased my avoidance by 1.07% for those 15 seconds.

So therefore, in order to figure out how much avoidance each enchant is providing me in the grand scheme of things, we need to average out the avoidance gain by the "uptime" of the buff. Unfortunately Bladeward's buff is consumed if you parry while it is up, which has the effect of lowering Bladeward's uptime. This makes it really hard to determine the overall avoidance gains of this enchant and really is what makes it lackluster. IF bladeward lasted it's full 10 second duration and had a 20% uptime, it would provide an average of 0.5% constant avoidance. However, there's absolutely no way of telling how much uptime (in theory) you are going to have on the buff because of the random nature of the buff being consumed.

Mongoose is much more straight forward. Depending on what numbers you look at, Mongoose has around 40% uptime. So 40% of the time you gain 1.07% avoidance for an average 0.428 "constant" avoidance.

Personally, I don't like either of them. I'll take my constant 25 hit rating and constant 25 crit rating from Accuracy...

Viu
06-30-2009, 05:09 AM
The problem on proccs is the procc. You sure will have a proc at the beginning of the fight but you'll not sure that the procc is up when you drop low or beeing in danger.
So static enchants are better while progressing in general.
Now comes blood drain which looks poor "2k HP on procc" wow... But while progressing its amazing! Lets say you have 45k HP an the boss hits you with 15k per strike, you eat 3 hits no parry no block no dodge = you die, with blood drain you life.
Its the best tanking enchant as warrior MT during progress.

Haps
06-30-2009, 08:45 AM
so i'm hearing accuracy then?

The problem with Accuracy is Ulduar gear is so hit heavy that you'll problem find yourself in a situation where you need to lose hit to balance other stats.

Lizana
06-30-2009, 08:51 AM
so 2.5% of the time something that would have hit is now instead avoided.


By posting that it shows you do not understand the combat table or what the buff is realy doing for you. I highly recommend the Bladeward vs mongoose post on these fourms where you can properly understand why the above statement is incorrect.

Heladys
06-30-2009, 09:46 AM
Proc rate on Blade Warding is garbage. If it's proccing 3 times thru the duration of a hardmode mimiron fight that goes into phase 4, then it's not doing anything for me.

It looks like they left off a trailing 0 on the proc rate encoding.

Porcell
06-30-2009, 12:54 PM
By posting that it shows you do not understand the combat table or what the buff is realy doing for you. I highly recommend the Bladeward vs mongoose post on these fourms where you can properly understand why the above statement is incorrect.

I completely understand it. All your gobbledygook about blocks becoming parries and hits becoming blocks is pointless. Again, who looks at single combat rolls and says "It is this, but it would have been this." 10% miss, 20% dodge, 20% parry, 20% block, 30% hit. You gain buff, 10% miss, 20% dodge, 22.5% parry, 20% block, 27.5% hit. By adding the buff, you gained 2.5% parry and decreased your chance of getting normally hit by 2.5%.

By saying "so 2.5% of the time something that would have hit is now instead avoided" I'm not implying that "If the die roll is a 70, 71, or 72, that hit became a parry." I understand the whole shifting of the combat table. However, what I'm saying it that it is absurd to even think about it that way.

Lizana
06-30-2009, 01:27 PM
No it isnt, but it is a flat out lie to say blade ward will make "something that would have hit is now instead avoided".

It doesnt matter if your looking at a single hit or 100 trillion hits, they will never become avoidance with blade ward. To say otherwise(and thats what you said) would be the same as saying blood draining will heal you so you wont ever need healing as a tank. Its a lie...

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 01:34 PM
No it isn't a flat out lie to say blade ward will make "something that would have been a mitigated hit is now instead avoided".

Fixed :).

Lizana
06-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Fixed :).

You realize what was in Quotes was in quotes because thats what he said...

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 02:08 PM
You realize what was in Quotes was in quotes because thats what he said...

I did yes.. but it was just easier to quote you :). and I fixed his quote as well at the same time..

Porcell
06-30-2009, 02:21 PM
No it isn't a flat out lie to say blade ward will make "something that would have been a mitigated hit is now instead avoided, and something that would have been a hit is instead a mitigated hit".

Fixed again. And what's that end result? You take a hit 2.5% less often and you avoid an attack 2.5% more often.

Are you arguing semantics just for the sake of arguing? Your avoidance increases by 2.5%. The resulting combat table has 2.5% less normal hits on it. Who cares if "on this particular roll it would have been a block but is now a parry, but on that particular roll it would have been a hit but is now a block."

Kazeyonoma
06-30-2009, 02:29 PM
Calm down fellers.

Superspy23
06-30-2009, 02:45 PM
No it isnt, but it is a flat out lie to say blade ward will make "something that would have hit is now instead avoided".

It doesnt matter if your looking at a single hit or 100 trillion hits, they will never become avoidance with blade ward. To say otherwise(and thats what you said) would be the same as saying blood draining will heal you so you wont ever need healing as a tank. Its a lie...

If you understand the attack table then you must realize that never does an attack turn into something else in game. Furthermore trying to call a random variable a specific number is not looking at an attack table, its looking at an event that the attack table yielded. Not the same thing.

Anyhow Porcell, you are right and Lizana isn't realizing the error in his application of the attack table. We've been over this and I'm not about to get into it again. However here's some links that has discussion about Blade Ward.

Blade Warding by the Logs (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/51866-blade-warding-logs.html)
Bladeward vs. Mongoose (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51579-bladeward-vs-mongoose.html)

Hope it helps.