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View Full Version : Last Laugh Drops: Goes to DK or War?



Orz
06-05-2009, 09:41 PM
(not sure if this would be better for Theory forums or not)

Last night I landed in a pickup group in Naxx 25 with Maexxna, Saph, and KT left to go. When I arrived I changed out my Port spec/gear and went Fury.

KT wiped us 4 times before we got him down. There were some real issues with the melee ice tombing eachother, offtanks coming in from the side and tombing us and the main tank, etc. It was bad.

Come the end of KT, Last laugh drops.

I'm thinking to myself, this is awesome, as LL has eluded me for many months. The MT was an Unholy DK using a 2hander, one OT was a warrior that already had Last Laugh, and there was another DK that I had never inspected.

Had I actually inspected this other DK, I would have seen he was spec'd as a Frost Hybrid and using 2 one-handers for tanking even though he had talents increasing 2-handed weapon damage (spec = 23 / 33 / 15). I also would have seen that he was only at 531 defense and 26k hp. I suppose 26k is okay for OTing KT if the healers are good and your rotations are down, but 531 is pushing it a bit. Anyhow, I digress.

The call comes up for Last Laugh, and knowing that the warrior already had it I instantly rolled. I got an 11 ><. The Main Tank, again a DK, rolls and gets a 94. Everybody in Vent suddenly spoke out. I didn't say anything at first. The others all shamed the DK and said that was retarded. He said it's a tanking weapon and it goes to Main Spec first. He was chided yet again, as they said he was not spec'd to DW tank, so it would be an Offspec for him, and that using 1-handers was retarded.

At this point I put back on my prot gear and changed to my prot spec. I stated in vent that I'm usually a tank, which is absolutely true, and to inspect me if anybody wanted. I stated that I would really appreciate the Last Laugh and put it to good use, and didn't want to see it go to waste as it was an upgrade through and through, not a novelty item.

Now the other DK starts speaking up and saying that Blizzard has announced they're trying to make DW DK tanking more better, blah, blah. I called the bullshit flag, as I haven't seen anything from Blizz, in fact just the opposite. He also rolls, I forget the result, but beat me and not higher than a 94.

The DKs were both all about rolling and taking the one-hander, yet the myriad of voices on vent were calling them out on it. I chatted one more time /ra and said I'd really appreciate it, but go with what you think is right.

About 45 seconds with arguing still going on in vent, though I'm not participating and just watching/listening, the Last Laugh was master looted to me.

It didn't take long for the DW DK OT to send me a tell, saying what a douche I was and I had no idea what I was talking about.

So, now I finally come to my question:

If you're a master looter, what would you do in this situation? I'm not looking for anybody to say I deserved it, I want an honest opinion.

Personally, I think the Main Tank that was not spec'd for DW tanking should not get it. From looking at his gear, it would mean a downgrade and a respec.

As my being there as a Fury Warrior, I feel as if I have a right to roll on it if nobody else can roll as Main Spec or if it's not an upgrade for them.

But, this other guy, who showed a real lack of inexperience tanking and was literally being zerged through naxx 25 as a tank, was actually using 2x one-handers (red sword and titansteel bonecrusher), even though he was actually spec'd for 2-handers.

It's a difficult situation, as everybody I think has some sort of claim on the item.

Do you go by the actual results of the rolls, or do you make a call and say Main Spec (role) over Off Spec (role), no matter what ... or Main Spec (actual) over Off Spec (actual)?

... or throw your hands up in the air and shard it, lol?

Petninja
06-05-2009, 09:57 PM
The beauty of the /roll system is that the highest roll wins. It has no logic to it, and is very inefficient if you're trying to gear a guild up to maximize your raid experience. That having been said, you didn't deserve the weapon since you lost the roll. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this, since it's pretty clearly one of the best weapons a warrior tank can get. Personally I think the current reward system for bosses is retarded, and only feeds the childish behavior we see so often in game and on forums.

It's a pug, and that's what you have to expect from people. Your ML probably didn't obey the rules set out in the beginning of the raid very well though.

Damonvile
06-05-2009, 09:58 PM
If I was master looter I would of given it to you. It's the same argument hunters have been making for 4 years. Just because you can use something doesn't mean you should. Warriors can tank with 2 handed weapons if they wanted to. They'd be totally gimped and die really easy but it's the same argument that DK was making..... he can DW tank but it's not as good as 2h.

Also... would they be ok if BoH dropped and you wanted it as your tanking weapon ? I doubt it. Same argument though....you could take some gimp spec and MS tank.

The only reason I would even consider giving it to one of the DK was if they got nothing all night and you did. Pugs aren't about who is it the biggest upgrade, that's what guild runs are for.

Warwench
06-05-2009, 10:00 PM
it went to the right person... the DK is a moron.

DW tanking *is* possible, but it's not practical and he obviously wasnt spec'd for it.

I wonder what his tune would have been had Betrayer dropped and you rolled and won.

rmd83
06-06-2009, 12:18 AM
Yeah the ML did the right thing imo. DKs don't need "tank" weapons to tank.

Brutul
06-06-2009, 12:35 AM
Eh, you're not an orc. You can pug FL25 and upgrade it. So while it is better for you than him CURRENTLY, and I stress the currently as Blizzard has stated they're going to try and make DW DK's viable again soonish, it wouldn't have been something I'd have stressed over (if i wasn't an orc!).

Krenian
06-06-2009, 01:01 AM
The dual wield situation has in fact been mentioned by Blizzard and they have been thinking about potentially making frost 'The' Dual Wield tree for DPS and tanking. However that's a thought only and nothing set in stone. Come 3.2 however, they plan on making dual wielding viable from all intents and purposes and as such, it may be the changes needed.

Right now, is the dual wielding tanking spec possible? Not particularly. It's doable but it's not the most effective type of tanking you can have. (And this is coming from one of the strongest advocates of dual wield tanking on this website). Will it? Potentially later. Right now though, the only thing you would wanna do with Last Laugh as a DK is to dual wield as it has a high strength/dps, however with the release of Ulduar, the axe does lose it's flavor. Leave it to the tanks that use one handers such as the Warrior and/or the Paladin.

Just clarifying something in the talks about DK and tanking. As for who was right/wrong, that's entirely on the perspective of what the loot priority system was. Was it a pug? Were the rules established before the raid? Was he dual wielding through the instance as a main tank?

The build shouldn't matter to be honest because that can be changed. It takes a quarter hour to get 50 gold back to do the highest cost of respec'ing.

a) Was he dual wielding through the instance? If he was, then he was dual wield tanking.

b) Did he do a sucessful job or was he terrible as a main tank that would potentially void him of loot? If he wasn't bad, and did the job he was supposed to, the tanking method was efficient, even if the spec did not make any sense to you.

c) Was the roll the proper roll in which was agreed upon? Was this a Pug or a loot council? If the rules stated that /roll and highest wins, then by all means he played within the rules.

To my personal opinion, he shouldn't of bothered rolling for a dual wielding death knight tank. However there are stubborn people out there that play it and it's their right. It may not be optimal but if they made it work for that run, then you cannot state that his job was not well done. It's all a matter of perspective.

If he followed all the rules, and rolled on an item that was an upgrade to him in his mind, and he did not break any of the rules or did not really fail at his class, then he should of won it fair and square no matter what the protest. If he didn't live up to his expectations however, that would be enough for me to step and say "Look, this guy will benefit more than you because this this and this. You have to understand that the changes coming are not now, and that right now, it doesn't benefit you more than it would him. Besides, you didn't do this this and this right."

This is why Pugs and loot are a nightmare: as soon as a 'bis' for people show up, courtesy goes out the window. Stick to the rules you set and you won't have these problems arise.

Voodan
06-06-2009, 01:06 AM
I have a question, at the beginning of the run did you mention that you would be rolling primary on tank gear (as opposed to dps gear)? If so, I would say its right that Last Laugh got looted to you. If not, well...I think its not right that you got it. Regardless of the fact that the other DK had no idea how to spec, what the better choice is for DK tanking at the moment or any of that, the cold hard fact is that he was there, he put in his time, you clearly were able to down KT (though i'm sure he made it difficult for the healers) and he was there as a tank.

This to me is like the issue of a DK tank rolling on the KT neck quest stater. Does it have block itemization? Yes. Is it better suited for a warrior or pally tank than a DK/druid tank? Yes. Did it use to be best in slot for EH? Yes. That doesn't mean its not a pure upgrade for the DK tank.

Moral of the story, if its not a guild run that has a Loot Council in place, its not really you're place to tell people they can or cannot spec a certain way. As long as the upgrade is for the primary spec that the person is performing in the raid and its clearly an upgrade for them, they should have their fair roll against you imo.

rmd83
06-06-2009, 01:32 AM
Well, for one DW DKs have been stated as "not viable tanks" which from what i've seen it's always 2H. I think the call was fair. That DK can go get B.P or SOTL if he wants to DW. I'm sure that same DK would have rolled on BOH if it had dropped, stupid blizzard thinking they are making the game balanced when it's clearly not :P. Also I would like to add that something like this happened in a 10 man naxx guild run where the DK was tanking and wanted death's bite for tanking/dps. Well I thought it was unfair that even though the primary spec of the OT was dps still rolled. They are both extremely good dps. I'm just not partial to the idea that DKs can roll on dps 2-Handers or 1-handers and still tank =\. Not saying warriors/paladins can't do that but we'd be extremely gimped.

Roarc
06-06-2009, 01:34 AM
If a DK can viably roll for a "potentially solid upgrade for the future" (if blizzard changes something) a Warrior might as well be viable to roll on all DPS loot as well for our threat sets, block sets (that might be good in the future) etc. Blizzard has stated they would like Warriors to possibly focus more on other stats than tanking… In general it's an argument that doesn't hold much ground in my book.

If a person is experimenting, fine, that's good, but I'll always say main spec / proven viable spec first.

If you're a master looter, what would you do in this situation?
I'm all for the roll system in pugs if people know that they can roll for. If I come as DPS I ask if I can roll on my main spec or vice versa - I'll tank if I'm allowed to roll for DPS loot cause that's all I need. I dislike people rolling for odd items as above and it doesn't really work well in pugs. I would normally also never take an item over another player that has more use of it.

Last Laugh is the best weapon until XT-002 hardmode for an orc for instance. No questions asked. It will last this person a long long time hence he should have it in my eyes. Other classes and specs have a lot of other options out there, even better than Last Laugh, especially DK's with their main weapon - a 2-hander.

If the matter of the fact is it would be a side grade / experimental item I would again never roll in the first place. If a person is egoistic enough to do that I think it's only right the loot master steps in.

In-experience can often be solved by a clear "leader" in pugs. I don't know how many times I've had discussion about warriors vs pallies vs dk's where they all end up saying "but you have a shield and ranged weapon slot so what are you complaining about?" where the fact is both the other classes today are better off than warriors in scaling of stats. Un-educated deeds should be guided and I think it's only right the weapon is handed to someone that really will make use of it properly (given you're not an orc it's not as awesome of a weapon but it's far more viable than a DK having it).

In regards of rolling…
…main spec always rules unless you at the raid start came to another agreement. I've tanked Naxx with the notion I want DPS upgrades. If I can't roll for these I don't tank. If the raids don't approve of me doing this I respect that and find another. The important things is these things have to be set before hand and not during a run where someone might start rolling both ways which isn't good.

Regards
Roarc

Gromblee
06-06-2009, 01:37 AM
Looks to me like it was the ML's decision in the end. Which is why there is a ML. If the DK's have a problem with loot their beef is with the ML and not you. I may be biased being a Warrior myself that is yet to get LL but maybe Ulduar will drop something for me.

Karatheya
06-06-2009, 01:41 AM
but 531 is pushing it a bit. Anyhow, I digress.

Just as an aside, if the DK has the Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight, 531 is fine, because the sigil gives 53 rating (10.78 skill) for 30 seconds when Icy Touch is used.

rmd83
06-06-2009, 02:28 AM
as i said in one of my other posts "If BOH had dropped the DK most likely would have rolled on that" which is quite possibly true. It's a flawed mechanic of the game that I think will eventually ruin wow. I mean why should I put my time into helping down a boss if I know that a dk might roll on an upgrade for me. When i know for a fact they most likely would have rolled on a "DPS" weapon if BOH had dropped. This is where the flawed mechanic comes into play DKs having the ability to roll on 1 handed tank weapons or change "DPS" weapons into tanking weapons. Jawbone is much easier to get and more viable for DK tanks. I guess this is all matter of opinion. I just got lucky and recieved LL first KT 25 kill which was around Jan. or so, but i'd be p/oed if a damn DK ninja'd it from me. I guess it's just me but the idea just really gets under my skin. Luckily i've never been in the situation myself but i'd be really ticked if i was and the dk was on the recieving side.

Voodan
06-06-2009, 07:48 AM
rmd83 you're missing the point. It doesn't sound like the OP was there as a MT, he was there as dps (still waiting on an answer to confirm/deny that). But if thats the case, how can you say that a warrior helping the raid as dps but claiming to be a full-time tank when LL dropped has priority over a DK that does in fact DW as a primary tank spec? If that DK does DW and was there as a tank, then LL is directly an upgrade for his main spec. The whole reason for a roll system in a pug is to avoid master looters having the potential to determine who deserves an item more or blah blah blah.

Now granted if this was a raid that I was leading and I was ML of a guild run, no way in hell would a DW DK get it over our prot warrior. But given that it was a pug I think the ML overstepped his bounds...

Tatt
06-06-2009, 07:57 AM
I have to agree with the poster who said it is the ML's decision. The ML obviously agrees with the majority, in believeing that at this moment dw'ing is not feasible for a dk. His choice was to give it to a class that is obviously going to IMMEDIATELY benefit from it. No matter what all of our opinions on whether it was unfair or main spec off spec or anything else, it comes down to who is going to IMMEDIATELY be able to put it to the best use. If I were the ML I would have done the same thing personally.

Conreeaght
06-06-2009, 08:10 AM
Looks to me like it was the ML's decision in the end. Which is why there is a ML. If the DK's have a problem with loot their beef is with the ML and not you. I may be biased being a Warrior myself that is yet to get LL but maybe Ulduar will drop something for me.

I agree with this.

I have a friend that liked doing the DK dual-wield thing, and he's well geared to dps or tank (though more dps). We ran into an LL decision and he said (paraphrased):

"I want to roll, but I'd be shooting myself in the foot for any progression."

Now I'm rocking a titanguard from an FL25 pug. However, that statement will always be my consideration if I were ever to be in an ML position.

(similar happened with my Betrayer vs. a hunter pre-uld as well. They took it very well, especially after I explained the usefulness Envoy of Mortality had.)

Kelstet
06-06-2009, 08:11 AM
In most pugs I clearly define my intentions before the start of them, when I was doing Naxx 25 pugs if they wanted me to DPS I gladly would but my only rule was that I would roll on LL and WoT off KT. Last pug I did I was Ret all the way up to KT when we lost a tank and I swapped to prot, WoT dropped and I won it.

I think fair is fair in terms of the end of the day it is the ML's judgment call, I would never tell someone they couldn't roll on it (in terms of a DW DK) even knowing that it would be a poor weapon choice for that char class. I think as long as you make your intentions known then most people wouldn't have a problem with it.

Just my two cents

Kel

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 08:29 AM
As a DK Frost 2-Handed Tank, I disagree with what the Master Looter had done. Yes, I don't think DW is a viable tanking spec, but it was a main spec roll, and his spec involved using two one-handed weapons. You were there as DPS and not as a tank, so you would of rolled as an offspec roll (unless you and the raid had agreed to you rolling on tank gear).

It would be like someone saying to an Arms warrior that the Arms tree is not a viable Raid spec, and not letting the warrior roll on any polearms, used only by Arms warriors and letting an off-spec holy/ret Pally take the Polearm, instead.

The main argrument are that it was a) An upgrade for him, and b) something he can use right away. He came in as that spec, and he should be allowed to roll on any gear that helps his spec. If they didn't like the fact he was Dual Wielding, they should of kicked him from the raid at the start.

THe OP was there as DPS. He even says when he got there, he switched from Prot to Fury, to dps. The raid already had three tanks (A 2-H DK Tank, a Prot Warrior, and a DW DK Tank).

Tatt
06-06-2009, 08:32 AM
Maybe I misread it, but the dual wielding dk tank had 2 hand weapon damage talented....if he did not have enough of a brain to make his talents follow his preferences than I refuse to consider that a main spec. And your arms warrior example does not make any sense. Arms warriors are very raid viable. Dw dk's AT THE MOMENT are not viable. As a tank they put out less threat, as dps they do less damage. The only way I would even consider this a worthy argument was if the weapon in question was broken promise instead of Last Laugh.

Hengist
06-06-2009, 08:39 AM
If it would be a guild run, I would argue for giving the item to you - it reaches its full potential in hand of protection warrior and protection paladin, and that would be the best decision, considering future progress, not wasting loot etc.

But, in the pug, with DK actually playing as a tank, dual wielding, I would definitely give it to him - if his DW tanking was good enough to tank in the pug and kill the boss, its good enough to grant him some main spec tanking loot. I wouldn't even let you roll, since you were dpsing. I think it was not honest towards him - you accepted him in the tanking spot with his silly dw tanking ways, but you didn't let him get the loot for his main spec?

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 08:48 AM
Except, in this case, the DW DK tank was viable spec, as the OP never mentioned any problems with the tank in question.

DW tanks gain extra tanking stats, which help in taking less damage, over 2H weapons. If the OP had said that the DW DK tank kept losing agro or dieing in every encounter he was tanking for, then I would say that DW was the problem.

I know Arms is a viable raid spec. But, if the Master Looter thought all DPS should be Fury, since Arms was a PvP tree, and denied the Warrior a Polearm, then it's the same situation as what happened here.

We can even look at a 2-Handed Enhancement Shaman not being allowed to roll on the Betrayer (or any 2-Handed weapon), because Enhancement shamans are supposed to DW the raid might say, and deny the shaman any 2 Handed loot at all. The Shaman is specced and only interested in doing 2-Handed DPS, so why should he be forced to roll on Single handed weapons (NOTE: I might be wrong about 2-Handed weapons being worst then DW Shamans, and, if so, please picture this scenario as a DW Shaman being denied single handed weapon, instead).

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 08:53 AM
@Hengist:If it was a guild run, I would base it on if the OP normally tanks vs. the DW DK tank. If we have DW DK tank on a regular basis, then the DK tank should get the item, since the guild will see more use of it from him then the tank who comes in to tank every now and again. Then again, if this was a guild run, there'd be no problems with the DK DW, since the guild would know he was DW and rolling on single handed weapons.

Voodan
06-06-2009, 08:54 AM
Plus, you're all forgeting that the ML actually allowed rolls to occur. It would have been one thing if they had discussed that before hand, but you let the guy roll, see he wins, then give it to someone else? Since from what the OP said the only rolls were the 2 DK's and him, just the fact that the ML allowed rolls then renegged on them is pretty messed up.

Hengist
06-06-2009, 09:06 AM
@Hengist:If it was a guild run, I would base it on if the OP normally tanks vs. the DW DK tank. If we have DW DK tank on a regular basis, then the DK tank should get the item, since the guild will see more use of it from him then the tank who comes in to tank every now and again. Then again, if this was a guild run, there'd be no problems with the DK DW, since the guild would know he was DW and rolling on single handed weapons.
I mentioned it in the sense, that in the guild I would argue against giving 1h tanking weapon to DK, since I strongly believe its suboptimal, especially if there is a warrior tank present to receive loot (and in the guild I would know that Op's main spec is tank ofc). I'm one of the officers in my guild, and I just wouldn't like to see the weapon wasted, since it being put to good use will have some impact on the guild's progress, no matter how small.

But in the PUG, I would give it to DK, since like you said, tehy did accept him in the first place. Its not fair to let guy DW tank the boss and then start to whine about him being a DW tank when it comes to loot distribution. The moment to accept (or not) him being DW tank was after the invitation, when everyone could see him having 2 tanking 1 handers equipped.

Hengist
06-06-2009, 09:08 AM
Plus, you're all forgeting that the ML actually allowed rolls to occur. It would have been one thing if they had discussed that before hand, but you let the guy roll, see he wins, then give it to someone else? Since from what the OP said the only rolls were the 2 DK's and him, just the fact that the ML allowed rolls then renegged on them is pretty messed up.
Doesn't have to mean anything, since people often roll just after seeing the item linked, before ML can specify who is allowed to roll and who is not.

Stephanius
06-06-2009, 09:13 AM
A DK taking LL 'just in case it could be useful in the future' when you have someone there for whom it will be useful for sure would be quite silly in my eyes.

I completely agree with the ML's decision.

Norik
06-06-2009, 09:20 AM
PuG with rolls, goes to highest roller, the person that wins the roll then decides if he/she feels like passing to someone who may need it more. Hence the roll system. Now if the highest roller has won something already that run, IMHO it should go to the next highest roller. BUT that needs to be spelled out before hand.

Your a Pickup with a guild run. Ask them how you fit into there loot system. And if something is a major upgrade for one of the guild members, IMHO again, let them have it or at least discuss it with them. Actions like that will get you invited back again, which is an awsome way to gear up one of your alts or to pick up off-spec pieces.

That is exactly how I got my Last Laugh on my warrior over a DK tank. GL/RL knew I had been helping out considerably and passing on gear left and right, when it dropped before anyone could say anything, he states its going to Norik. (Even the DK tank agreed.)

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 09:22 AM
@Stephanius


Had I actually inspected this other DK, I would have seen he was spec'd as a Frost Hybrid and using 2 one-handers for tanking even though he had talents increasing 2-handed weapon damage (spec = 23 / 33 / 15). I also would have seen that he was only at 531 defense and 26k hp. I suppose 26k is okay for OTing KT if the healers are good and your rotations are down, but 531 is pushing it a bit. Anyhow, I digress.


The DK wasn't item hogging for a future, unannounced patch note, but rather was actualling using two weapons to tank through out the encounter.

Orz
06-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Just to clarify some things:

I was there as Fury, and when the time came for Last Laugh rolls, nobody rolled for 10 seconds. At that time, I stated I wanted it for Off Spec, which is actually my Main Spec outside of that PUG (doesn't matter, but was just showing I would put it to use and not sell it). The Main tank and the Off Tank didn't roll for about another minute.

The Off Tank was NOT spec'd for DW tanking. He was spec'd for 2-handed tanking. He had abilities that increased 2-handed weapon damage and passed on the 1-handed talents in Frost.

the Off Tank was, however, actually using 2x 1-handers. But, I think he was only doing this in order to get more defense for that one fight, not because he actually played like that. Had he actually been a true DW tank, obviously he would have talented his abilities for it.

And yes, the Off Tank was dying. He died every attempt, including the the one that actually saw KT's death. I don't know enough about DK tanking mechanics specifically to determine if that was a result of DW or not, as somebody mentioned was a possibility.

The loot system was never explained, I didn't bother to ask. However, I don't really care what the loot system is. There is always room for the ML to step in. If you're a warrior and the Tier token drops, and you already have Tier 8 helm, the loot system says you can still roll on it for main spec ... but an ML can say "wait a minute, you already have an upgrade, you're trying to steal that for an offspec ... let the Shaman with the blue helm take it instead." This is why Master Looters have a responsibility to their guild and even in pugs.

No, I never stated that I was rolling on tanking gear as priority over DPS gear. It just happened that Last Laugh dropped, so I put in a bid on it for Off Spec since I didn't believe any real tank in that particular raid would actually want it. And then the situation developed from there.

I should also mention that it had already been established prior to KT that I was usually a Main Tank and Fury was my true offspec. I ended up getting the dodge trinket off of Saph because nobody else wanted it (yes, I know it's mainly a druid tanking trink, but we had no druids and I was the only person int he raid that expressed an interest in it right before it was almost sharded. I probably won't ever use it, but I like the options of miscellaneous gear for unique encounters). No, I don't think Last Laugh would ever be miscellaneous gear for a specific encounter for Death Knight, personally.

rmd83
06-06-2009, 10:35 AM
Well, the majority of us agree with the ML's decision. I fully agree with steph on the issue. I'm not a DK so I can't speak for the guy who won the roll, but as i said the guy can easily go 2-h, get jawbone or whichever BIS 2-h is and call it a day. Where as Orz would have to farm 25 man KT repeatedly to get BIS pre-ulduar for warrior tanks. That's my opinion though and I am not saying the ML was right for his/her decision just stating my opinion. This is why I don't like pugs because loot rules go out the window, better to just find a progressed guild who downs 25 man KT every week and does some sort of loot counciling. Since it's a bit more fair to everyone imo as long as you have people who got gear logged in your computer or a notebook. Also, the trinket shouldn't even be an issue since nobody wanted it. Maybe the DK was dying due to lack of gear as well. It would probably help if you linked his armory too.

Orz
06-06-2009, 11:24 AM
I won't link his armory because I don't think there's a need to identify him.

Suffice to say, he was in half blues (only 26k hp) and a Frost hybrid spec, 23 / 33 / 15.

Another clarification: He was the second OT. He was obviously DPSing and tossed on gear just for OTing the KT adds. The 1st OT was a warrior that had Last Laugh already.

Had I bothered to inspect him prior to initiating KT, I would have expressed that I should be an OT instead, since I'm far more geared and experienced and it would have made things easier. I never bothered to look him over since the raid leader said he was good to go and I felt an obligation to DPS as nobody was interrupting KT as much as I was and I was also one of the top DPSers. Looking back, I really should have looked this guy over and brought up the subject of his gear and opposing spec for that encounter and made the OT go back to DPSing. I didn't, however.

That would have made this a whole lot easier. But, that wasn't the case.

Voodan
06-06-2009, 11:27 AM
DWing rarely has an impact on survivability of the tank except for in general 2 x 1-h weapons will have less stam than some of the higher end 2-h weapons and parry haste. However, most raid bosses don't get parry haste so that would not be an issue. It was probably the rest of his gear and/or spec.

Based on your clarification Orz, I actually change my opinion on the situation. If the DK tank just went DW for that one fight, that could only be a defensive stats choice imo. If thats the case, LL does not benefit a DK in such a way so if his main spec was not DW tank then I would say priority goes to an off-spec (yes I know prot is your main but for the purposes of the raid it was your off-spec) prot warrior than to a strange side-grade for the DK.

That being said if, in fact, the DK was consistently a DW tank it should have really gone to him. If he was dying so much, you guys could have replaced him. Since you chose to keep him around, if it was his main spec (regardless of the banter about its viability) he should have had his fair roll at it.

Tarigar
06-06-2009, 12:04 PM
From what I interpreted this as. Both people were rolling for os in the raid.

The DK with the 531 def was not spec'd properly for his gear. It would be like me spec'ing for swords then using a mace.

I would have done the same thing as ML because you would have gained more utility from it immediately.

The DK may or may not have had a 2nd 1h, so we really don't know and it could have been on his wish list of *if I get titanguard or stoneguard etc then I can dual wield tank*.

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 12:38 PM
@Tarigar: He was probably geared for the fight, if he was using Sigil of Unfaltering Knight, that gives about 10 Defense when casting Icy Touch

As well, the DK was DW for the fight with KT, which means the Last Laugh would of been an upgrade to whatever he was using during that fight. He would of found an immediate use of it, as well.

Even if he's specced for 2H weapons, was he tanking with a 2-Handed weapon or DW the whole night? I think that's the biggest question that needs to be answered. Specs can easily be changed or forgotten to be updated - gear is harder. If an Arms warrior is Sword Mastery specced, and BoH drops, does that mean he can not roll on it?

@Voodan - if it went to Off Spec roll, then the DK roll would of been valid (his "Main Spec" would be a 2-Handed Tank, and his OffSpec a DW tank) and would of out rolled the OP.

EDIT: As well, that's the definition of immediate use? In most cases, people don't equip new gear gained from an instance until after the run, simply because, before gemming and enchanting it, your old gear is probably still better. That DK, who has the gear to DW tank could of went and and respecced for DW Specilization (maybe he just picked up the Sen'jin axe, right before he got a raid invite) and would of just as useful for him as it was for OP, except, that it's harder to find a tanking position for raids then for dps spots.

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 12:54 PM
Well, the majority of us agree with the ML's decision.

I'm sorry, but this comment bothered me.

So, I went over the thread, and wrote down the names who seem to think that the item should of went to the DK or went to the Warrior (and kept names off of anyone who seemed in between).

Death Knight:
Petninja
Brutul
Krenian
Voodan
Roarc
Kelstet
VerticalEvent
Hengist
Norik

Warrior:
Damonvile
Warwench
rmd83
Tatt

So, as we can see more people seem to think the DK should of gotten the item at the end of the run, then the warrior.

bludwork
06-06-2009, 01:45 PM
the 2nd post is why people hate dkp. You cannot always go absolutely by the numbers and eliminate common sense. Common sense won in this case, not some dumb roll system. Would have ML'ed to you too.

Tarigar
06-06-2009, 01:46 PM
@Tarigar: He was probably geared for the fight, if he was using Sigil of Unfaltering Knight, that gives about 10 Defense when casting Icy Touch

As well, the DK was DW for the fight with KT, which means the Last Laugh would of been an upgrade to whatever he was using during that fight. He would of found an immediate use of it, as well.

Even if he's specced for 2H weapons, was he tanking with a 2-Handed weapon or DW the whole night? I think that's the biggest question that needs to be answered. Specs can easily be changed or forgotten to be updated - gear is harder. If an Arms warrior is Sword Mastery specced, and BoH drops, does that mean he can not roll on it?

EDIT: As well, that's the definition of immediate use? In most cases, people don't equip new gear gained from an instance until after the run, simply because, before gemming and enchanting it, your old gear is probably still better. That DK, who has the gear to DW tank could of went and and respecced for DW Specilization (maybe he just picked up the Sen'jin axe, right before he got a raid invite) and would of just as useful for him as it was for OP, except, that it's harder to find a tanking position for raids then for dps spots.

I wasn't stating that he wasn't def capped I do understand the sigil. I was highlighting which dk I was referring to since he said there was 2. He stated that the DK with 531 def was dual wielding but 2h spec. So it would be like me showing up sword spec wearing the BoH. Not respec'ing afterwards.

Also yes he could have picked up the sen'jin axe if he had the tokens. It is all hypothetical and a warrior could have equipped it right there thrown on a weapon chain etc. But I do have a bias as I have never seen any dk dw tanks in the past 3 months (as well as me being a warrior) as most dk's in my guild would say it isn't as beneficial to them as wearing a 2h.

So i still stand by my decision that I would have given it to the warrior. Some people like to have *an item* as a showcase piece but never really use it.

I have done the same with the Stave Illhoof dropped. It was going to get d/ed and I wanted to flaunt it to a druid friend who was farming for it.

Tatt
06-06-2009, 01:48 PM
I didn't say the majority thought the warrior should have gotten the weapon, I said the majority felt that dk's at this time cannot effectively dual wield..

Alent
06-06-2009, 02:10 PM
If I'm masterlooter, any 1H tank gets priority over a death knight on 1H weapons. There are specific situations where you want 1H tank weapons (As I understand it, The unholy/blood build that DKs use for 3D sarth capitalizes on using the 2% magic damage reduction rune on two 1H weapons) but in general a Death knight with a 1H is just a hair above a mage asking for King's Defender for his shat spec.

Genome852
06-06-2009, 02:25 PM
Definitely should have gone to you. Plus, the DK seems like a douche :/

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 03:16 PM
I didn't say the majority thought the warrior should have gotten the weapon, I said the majority felt that dk's at this time cannot effectively dual wield..

No, I quoted you. You said that the majority agreed that the Warrior should of received the weapon (what the master looter did), and not the DK. You said nothing about the viability of DW tanking.

@Genomes: Of course he's being a douche... he feels like he got an item ninjaed from him. He rolled and won and didn't recieve the item. If you were a Ret Pally, who rolled and won on the Betrayer, but the master looter gave it to a Warrior Orc because "he can use it better" (Axe Specilization + Axe specced), I don't think you you'd be too happy, either. Mind you, it was misdirected, and should of been at the master looter.

@Tarigar: It wouldn't really matter if one could enchant/gem right on the spot - the weapon dropped from KT, which meant, in most cases, the raid was over, unless they wanted to do Eye of Eternity or Obsidian Sanctum.

Tatt
06-06-2009, 03:25 PM
"The ML obviously agrees with the majority, in believeing that at this moment dw'ing is not feasible for a dk."

Those are my exact words from the first page of this thread. AGAIN, I am not saying that the majority agrees in the ML's decision to give the weapon to the warrior. What is bothering me about this argument is no one to my knowledge has argued the fact that the dk could or should be viably using Last Laugh. The argument is the wepaon is better for the warrior, but the loot rules should favor the dk. This bothers me because it is rewarding people who have less knowledge of their class. While I can appreciate the fact that the dk might, at the time, be upset that he feels like something that should have been his was taken away from him, if he goes to any site that I am aware of (elitistjerks, wowhead, tankspot, etc...) then he should figure out that he SHOULD NOT BE USING IT. I have not seen anyone put forth any kind of wws or logs showing that dw was even capable of matching 2hander output (threat or dps) let alone surpassing it. Should we let any class roll on whatever it wants, simply because if that person thinks he can use it then obviously he should be able to? If no one corrects mistakes and miseducation, then how can anyone improve? Find me something that says that the DK can benefit RIGHT NOW from that weapon, and we can discuss that. Saying that it wasn't fair because of a misconception is just saying its ok for people to ignore proven theory and gearing principles and do whatever they feel like.

Tarigar
06-06-2009, 03:33 PM
@Tarigar: It wouldn't really matter if one could enchant/gem right on the spot - the weapon dropped from KT, which meant, in most cases, the raid was over, unless they wanted to do Eye of Eternity or Obsidian Sanctum.

I never brought up enchanting in the first place you did, so I was giving the weapon chain as an example oh how a 1h tanking class could do it on the spot.

I consider immediate use as I can equip it now without having to visit a trainer to respec for the specialization. Since we are talking weapons enchants are mute point.

Stats on weapons generally increase your threat, avoidance, and eh alone without enchants.

Yes you may lose hit (if you have accuracy or a chain) but you gain more ap and base dps. I would equip the new weapon regardless whether or not it had an enchant on it.

VerticalEvent
06-06-2009, 03:47 PM
Oops. I apoligize, Tatt. I thought you were the person I quoted earlier (rmd83). I should of paid more attention to the names of the posters and less on the content.

As much as I agree with you that 2H tanking is better then DW tanking, based purely on threat, it's also his character, and he should be allowed to play however he wants to. This is a game that we play for fun. Some of us enjoy min/max our characters and some like their characters in certain play styles. This was a PUG, not a guild run trying to progress.

The weapon is not better for the warrior; the weapon is for any tanks using 1H weapons, which the DK was clearly using. This is a PUG, not a progressive raid. He sat down and raided the X amount of hours, he is entitled to the loot that upgrades his current gear like anyone else. He wasn't asking for it for RP purposes - it was a legitmiate upgrade to his play style. I'm sure there's a mage spec more poweful then the rest in raids, but I see plenty of Fire and Ice and Arcane mages in end game, and no one tells them to respec to spec X because it's better. They get to pick their own play style.

I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use. I'm used to it and I understand, though it is a little frustrating seeing a Warrior roll on Shield Block shoulders and then roll on the non-shield block shoulders a few boss fights later. But, hey, all three plate tanks can use it.

Now, a weapon, typically used by 1H tanks drops, and a a DK can actually use it and people are saying it's not itemized for him. Everything on that weapon, a DW DK tank can use and Warriors and Paladins are going crazy over the idea of having to share their precious loot tables with the DKs, something us DKs have to do with plate drops. I have never heard anyone say "Those don't have shield block, that should go to the DK tank and not the Warrior".

Tatt
06-06-2009, 03:56 PM
The difference is armor with or without block rating or value makes paladins and warriors better tanks (gearwise)....1 hand weapons make dk's WORSE tanks (again I have not seen anything to disagree with that fact).

This also probably hits close to home for me because for a good 75% of my Wow career (rofl career) I have been a pugger. Guild scheduling conflicts, wrong servers, that kind of thing. Giving the dk Last Laugh in this case makes good players LESS likely to pug, because they are tired of seeing players gearing incorrectly or without conscious reasoning. How many puggers here have shown up for a pug 10 or 25 man and counted the number of idiot dk's wearing half dps and half tank gear, with some pvp crafted saronite stuff thrown in the mix? I know that I absolutely refuse to pug Thaddius anymore because of how many of these wonderful players have done 1200 dps and we missed an enrage timer, or could not understand the idea of positive right/negative left. Obviously those examples are much more severe than a dk rolling on Last Laugh, but it leads to the same place. Dk's already have a bad reputation because of how flooded most servers are with them, and how badly a large percentage of them play. Yes its his 15 bucks a month, and his 3-5 hours invested. But it was also 24 other people's 15 bucks a month, and their time, and they deserve for gear to be given out correctly, not to reward people who do not understand their class.

Hengist
06-07-2009, 01:54 PM
I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use. I'm used to it and I understand, though it is a little frustrating seeing a Warrior roll on Shield Block shoulders and then roll on the non-shield block shoulders a few boss fights later. But, hey, all three plate tanks can use it.
Shield block isn't something warriors or paladins want on their gear. If we could choose how our gear looks like, there would be no sr/sbv on it at all, I mean for boss tanking. Its not like any possible stat that works for DKs isn't useful for warriors (and for paladins too, althogh they don't really want expertise). Dodge/parry/stamina/strength/armor/hit/expertise, those are optimal stats for us. DW tanking is definitely suboptimal for DKs, so your analogy isn't very good.

Everything on that weapon, a DW DK tank can use and Warriors and Paladins are going crazy over the idea of having to share their precious loot tables with the DKs, something us DKs have to do with plate drops. I have never heard anyone say "Those don't have shield block, that should go to the DK tank and not the Warrior".
If you really want to look at things that way, it is warriors and paladins who share their plate tanking drops with newcomers, those drops used to be only for us. Our right to those plate drops is exactly the same as yours. DKs right to 1h tanking weapons is IMO after shield tanks, but again, it should be pointed before inviting the DK, or at least before the boss kill.

Arrian
06-08-2009, 04:50 AM
I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use.

Think of another place where gear can go to multiple uses: Even though there's Mp5 mail, a resto shaman gets just as much use out of crit/haste spellpower mail as an ele shaman. The same can be said for disc priests with similarly itemized cloth. Just because one class can use a stat and another can't doesn't mean gear without said stat is only itemized for the second class. Warriors and pallies have been avoiding BR/BV since long before DKs were a gleam in GC's eye.

As for the tanks taking BV gear, then rolling on gear that doesn't have BV later on, the other option is to shard the BV gear. Which is better for progression? A shard or a sidegrade/situational piece of gear? I always preferred having my raiders pick up iffy gear to sharding it.

OP: It was a pug and the loot rules were apparently main spec > off spec. You were in the pug as DPS, so unless they had a rule like "Declare what your main spec is," tanking was your offspec. I can see an argument for dual wield as offspec for a 2H tanking DK, so all three rolls were equally valid and you lost.

It would suck to lose a Last Laugh to a DK, but that's life in pugs. (Everybody has an "I can't believe I lost a ... to ..." story.) I think your ML should have followed the rules that the raid agreed on in the first place.

Stephanius
06-08-2009, 05:20 AM
Face it: Death Knights are the new Hunters! =]

The class is very popular. For every awesome and skilled death knight - be it dps or tank - you have a dozen clueless people flailing their arms while proclaiming how awesome they are and laying claim to anything that they can equip.

I do have the Slayer of the Lifeless and the Red Sword of Courage on my DK tank. I picked them up during the first few weeks after wrath to test them out. What I would have never done is presume to compete for them with a pally or warrior tank for which they would be useful for certain.

A block set is for trash and non-challenging content, it has nothing to do with bits for the EH/MT set.

Arkunsun
06-08-2009, 10:29 AM
I'd say it went to the right person and the DK's messaging you was bad form, if they had a problem with how the loot got handed out they should have messaged the Raid Leader as you had no control on who got it.

I think items should go to who ever benefits the most from the upgrade. You obviously did over the MT and while some would argue the other DK could have benefited from it more, I wonder what he was doing as OT in Naxx 25 to begin with. 26K health and no defense cap, that's just sloppy.

This is why I dislike pugging, too many arguments over loot rules.

Molohk
06-08-2009, 11:07 AM
As said before, DW may not be optimal but it is possible. For reference, it has been stated that Blizzard will fix DK DW in the next major patch (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17222905949&pageNo=1&sid=1#1) (we know we can take that with a grain of salt).

As a DK, I would never roll on last laugh against a prot warrior (even if he was DPSing in that particular run) unless I was currently dual wielding or planning on respeccing for DW as soon as I had the weapons to do so. But this form of etiquette doesn't always happen in PuGs, and cannot really be enforced.

As a ML, I'm afraid I would've given it to the DW DK, unless the MT DK said he intended to respec DW soon in which case I would've given it to the MT. PuGs usually go by the "main spec first" rule set, which generally implies "you roll as the role you are playing in the pug". I know it's not an optimal solution since that weapon is probably better in the warrior's hands, but PuGs are not really optimal to begin with.

The ML probably made sure the axe went to the best possible looter (you), but in doing so he had to step over common PuG loot rules (assuming that pug went by normal rules).

Gromblee
06-08-2009, 07:21 PM
Molohk I am sorry to say but there is a guild on my my server that pugs often that has been blackballed by the raiding comunity due to the way they distibute loot. They make all sorts of statements as to how they justify loot awards not based on who can make best use of an item but who wants to roll on it. This has resulted in many looted items going to players that will either DE it or use it for a showpiece instead of putting it to it's proper use. Last Laugh going to a DK instead of a warrior / pally is insane..... he would never really put it to good use. As far as DW DK's are possible... yeah I can bear tank as resto but that does not make any sense either.

Hengist
06-09-2009, 01:21 AM
As far as DW DK's are possible... yeah I can bear tank as resto but that does not make any sense either.
DW tanking is possible, its just not optimal, but it does work. Its nothing like resto bear tanking.

minrog
06-09-2009, 01:42 AM
I agree that changing your mind after the /random 100 is bad policy and I would hesitate to trust the Master Looter after that. As a raid leader who sometimes leads PUG's I'll tell you that I would see the item get sharded to dust before I went back on my policy because of some specific class deal. It's one item whatever and I might get a little flack but it's impartial and I'm not going to get the reputation of being a liar afterward.

I do have some loot rules that I state ahead of time. Usually it's something like:

"Needs if the item is an upgrade for your set, Greeds if you don't want the item to be sharded and you have some esoteric use. Armor will go first to the classes that can only wear that armor type (cloth to clothies, then opened to all ect). If you are unable to use the item in question, such as a Warrior rolling on a caster staff, I will ignore the roll."

You're going to lose some rolls. Get a raiding guild if you want an advanced loot system. The DW Death Knight can actually use a tanking 1 hander and in fact to even make it work at all they need top of the line. It's no different than in TBC if you blocked a Shadow Priest from caster gear because they do sub-optimal damage and a Warlock would help the raid more. That or blocking an Enhancement Shaman in vanilla from picking up gear because Enhancement DPS sucks and they should be Resto instead.

Small Edit: I would have given it to the DK who rolled a 94. You peer pressured him to pass and then the other DK wants you to give it to him when he put on 2 weapons after seeing which items were on the body? They are talented for the same weapon damage type (2 hander) and you cannot trust people to be honest about not swapping weapons just to get gear and screw other people over. Highest roll wins imo.

slackhoid
06-09-2009, 05:45 AM
DW tanking is possible, its just not optimal, but it does work. Its nothing like resto bear tanking.
Yes. In spirit of minmaxing the DW tanking is not currently optimal, but I bet I could go to Ulduar10 and DW-tank any encounter I've tanked as 2H if I wanted.

In pug the main spec is what you are doing in raid (unless very specifically stated otherwize so that everyone is 100% clear and agree on that, I've had an exception as ML when Ele Shammy specced resto to heal and to help us kill KT 2 hours before the reset) and if you take a DK with DW into raid as tank you better give him a main specc roll on the 1h tank weps. You never ever should give them over to a DPS that has tank side-spec. IMO in pug there is no MT/OT loot riviledges rights either; that is guild policy if any.

In guilds this is ofc totally different ballgame, but in pug denying main spec loot right with any excuse is just abusing ppl who have contributed their time effort.

We have a small guild and we're often pugging a few ppl to our weekly Ulduar10 raids. A lot of ppl are interested in joinging due to one fact: we treat them as equals without abusing their time. Passing is ok and ppl often do that as we have mature and nice ppl in our grp; I would never ever rob main spec loot roll right from anyone who has contributed time to raid with us.

Berzerker
06-09-2009, 06:09 AM
As ML I would have tried talking the DK out of it. But he won the roll, and would've gotten it. As it was, the ML was the douche, and not you -- all you did was roll (as off-spec) and say you'd put it to good use. If the DK has a problem, he should be taking it up with the ML.

Bryenne
06-09-2009, 07:06 AM
Lots of arguments both ways here, and it probably sounds a lot like the back and forth did on the OP's vent prior to the loot being assigned. Everyone has their opinions, but I think it's been stated pretty clearly several times over: ultimate responsibility for loot distribution falls to the ML'er. Period. In this case, the leader made a decision, and ended up making one new friend (of the warrior) and one new enemy (the DW DK). That's something that raid leaders have to do when running a PUG.

Most of us do have stories of "how I got screwed by the /random system" and "someone ninja'd my BIS!". Again, unless you clearly make arrangements prior to the raid, you have no right to complain when an item is distributed according to the defined rule system.

What the OP is looking for is confirmation that he was making a valid argument for needing the drop over the DW DK. Yes. Do I think he should have received it? In the context of the "commonly accepted PUG raid loot rules," no. Do I think the ML did the right thing? Yes.

This is the opinion of a raid leader, and a DK who has tried to DW tank, and someone that is on a "loot council" for both PUG and Guild raids. End discussion, go run more raids, get more gear. World doesn't end because you didn't win something.

manicus
06-09-2009, 07:18 AM
From what i can see you rolled for the item as offspec, he rolled for it as main spec. If you stick to the loot rules, he should have gotten the item. Whether or not you could use it better should be of no concern here.

However I think the loot master took the right decision when he gave you LL. It is a better upgrade for you. :-D

Grgruch
06-09-2009, 07:51 AM
It doesn't matter what the build or the gear was. This is a pug group and as such I'm sure just like our pugs high roll wins for main set first. If this guys was DW through the run (speced for it or not) it is his main set. If you want to make sure you get the item run with your guild.

Now we pug this all the time. The beauty of this is there is a DK tank and a Pally I run with. DK using 2handers and using all dodge parry gear is perfect for a warrior to run with since he doesnt need any of my shield blocking gear or the last laugh (if it ever drops for me as well) The pally.. Well I lost out my roll to him before and you know what.. Grats to him.. Ill get it eventually... Thats the beauty of this game. You have your shot again next Tuesday.

Smokiez
06-09-2009, 09:26 AM
Why did it take minutes to distribute 1 item? lol, if no one was rolling on it, then you rolled offspec, why did the ML wait a few minutes?

IMO, the longer you wait to distribute loot, the more trouble it causes.

Also I would never allow a DK to dual wield tank as its not viable right now.

now for my opinion:

I believe the DK should have gotten it. Why?

In pugs, how I do loot is, what you bring for the encounter is your "main spec"

so if the DK was DWing, then that is his main spec, you were DPSing so that was your offspec, he had all rights to that weapon. especially since looting rules were not established.

Now if some rules were established prior to the fight since players roles changed, the whole issue at hand would have probably been avoided.

If it was me, I would have talked to the DK in private, if he still wanted, I would have taken my loss.

and this is coming from a warrior who has downed KT many times, and has yet to see last laugh drop. and no luck in ulduar for a tanking weapon :(

Molohk
06-09-2009, 09:37 AM
Side note: People really should stop claiming DW tanking isn't viable, or comparing it to resto tanking. DW tanking IS viable, it's just not optimal right now, I'd compare it to sword spec arms dps, there are more optimal choices for your spec and just because you're specced for one type of weapon it doesn't mean you can't roll on another type if you plan on respeccing for it.

Tatt
06-09-2009, 09:39 AM
Well I did a guild "gear up the alts" Naxx 25 run this weekend, and Last Laugh dropped. The DK MT is a dw dk. I still cringed when they gave it to him. I am not a tank anymore...in fact I am one of the supposedly mistreated dk's we all lament for. And I still say that dk's should not be taking 1hand tanking weapons over warriors and paladins. I had an amusing thought...what if a fury warrior rolled on a 1hand dps sword or axe? Their is no reason he cannot use a pair of 1 handers like in BC. I am sure their are a few idiots running around with some off the wall spec and fist weapons screaming that they can still do 2.5 k dps. Does it mean we should let them have rogue or enhancement shaman BiS items?

Molohk
06-09-2009, 09:49 AM
Tatt, I agree with you, we all know LL is much better for a warrior/pally than a DK, but I believe that's a form of etiquette that can only really be expected to exist in guild runs. In PuGs it is rare to see someone pass on an item because that item is better on another roller. PuG looting rules are usually simplified to "your current spec is your main spec, and main spec over off-spec", this only really gets complicated on healer/caster items, but tanking/dps is pretty straightforward. The fact is OP was in that raid as DPS (even if his primary spec is prot), the situation sucked and that's why the ML handed him the axe, but using ML judgement is a very dangerous thing in PuGs.

Orz
06-09-2009, 02:03 PM
I saw a people saying things simlar to: "Warshout was wrong for pleading with the ML to give it to him, and argued until he got it." To restate what I said in the first post, I did no such thing. I rolled after nobody spoke up for it on main spec, stated I was rolling for off spec, stated I'm normally not DPS (compare my gear for validation), and that I'd be happy to get it. I did, at one time, say I thought DKs DW tanking was not a great idea and that I'd put it to good use right away, but that was about the extent of my pleading. The rest of the raid argued with the ML and the DKs about it going to me as I sat there waiting to see what would happen. It ended up being looted to me, I didn't guilt trip anybody into doing anything. It was actually a resto Shaman that did most of the arguing.

Another misconception that I keep seeing is that I was there as DPS for my main spec and that the other DK for whom it would have been a supposed "upgrade" for there as a tank main spec. While the former is true, I was there as DPS, the latter is absolutely not true. As I stated, he was the THIRD tank for KT ... he was not tanking before then, thus he was DPSing. This means, although he did indeed do less than 50% off-tank duty during KT, he was not a main spec tank. Thus he was DPS main spec. The arguement it should go to him over me is a bit skewed. As I stated before, had I bothered to inspect, there's no way I would have let him be an Off Tank ... I'd have done it myself, and therefore the "DK's MS > War OS" arguement is not valid.

Additionally, he only had that 1-handed tanking weapon on so that he could meet the Defense minimum. Had he better gear, he'd have been using a 2-hander ... there's no doubt in my mind. He was spec'd for 2-handed weapons, so saying that he's a dedicated Dual Weild tanking DK is not a valid point. He was doint it out of desperation. And while LL would have been an upgrade, he would still only be using it to meet his DEF minimum, not because he spec'd for DW tanking, and in all odds would drop it for a nice 2-hander once he received a few upgrades in other departments to meet the uncrittable cap.

Because of the last two points, I feel he was using his Off Spec and taking a tempory side grade until something better came along to play as he was actually spec'd. Believe me, if BoH had dropped, he'd have laid claim to it through the "I've been DPS except the last 50% of KT this whole time, I'm Main DPS."

This goes right into something else I've seen people posting: "Warshout is looking for validation that he should have got it."

This is the last place I wanted this thread to go. I am not looking for validation. The point of my post, as was stated, is to present to you a topic for discussion which I think is appropriate in this day of Dual Specs and being able to Pug harder encounters than were possible 6 months ago.

The topic is: if you were the Master Looter, how would you have handled the situation? That is all that should be discussed. You can take that wherever you'd like to go: "Rules are rules," "MS vs OS," "Most viable and upgradeable versus suboptimal and downgrade," whatever. What this thread is not about is my wanting validity. I don't need it, I only wanted to see your opinions on how to handle these situations.

I think this situation brings about something I'm seeing a lot lately, and it's a bit concerning. The other night I was on my Hunter and we raided VoA 25. After Emalon we went on to Archie and downed him quickly. The Raid Lead, and Master Looter as well, was a Druid. Nothing for him dropped. He instantly handed off ML duty to some random guy, told him to handle it, and logged off. If you've ever been in a raid where a boss went down and was on ML, and the ML went offline, afk, transfered ML to somebody else, whatever similar, you will know that nobody but the original ML can hand out the items.

This meant that the four of us, the War, Hunter, Shaman, and Warlock that had items that dropped, had to wait for 2 hours until a GM could hand us our gear.

How is the Last Laugh topic and the VoA topic comparable? The answer is that as a Raid Master Looter, you have a responsibility to the raid.

Okay, yeah, I digressed a bit with my VoA example, but it's one more thing that I'm seeing ... there are a LOT of arguments, either in guild raids or pug raids, and you have a responsibility to everybody when you're the Master Looter. You can make a good raid even better through your decisions ... and you can make a good raid a horrible experience through them as well. You'll never make everybody happy, but you need to do your best ... and you certainly can't just ignore your duties.

There is no black and white when it comes to rules. I haven't seen a system yet that everybody in a raid agrees to 100% of the time. This is why the arguements I've seen in this thread that state "rules are rules, follow them or perish" are not very solid. There is always an item that can cause questions. There will always be people that skew the facts in an arguement for them getting an item in their favor, even though they know it would be a better upgrade for somebody else.

For instance, the DKs in the raid, and also in this very thread, that all state "Blizz is working on DW for DKs, so even if tanking is not optimal (or viable, there seems to be debate on that even amongst the DKs) right now, it will be soon, and therefore the DK should get it."

Somebody even posted a link to this proof that Blizz is improving DW for DKS. You know what the blue (Ghostcrawler) said in that post? "Next major patch." Did he say it would be improved on the next major patch? No. For all we know, they will drop all DW abilities on the next major patch so that it's not even a problem ... probably the easiest fix they've ever done. Do I think they'll do that? No. LoL. But it's an option, and it was not explained either way. "Next major patch" does not translate into "DKs will be viable DW tanks soon." The word 'major' is not defined, so we don't know when it will happen, so the word 'soon' is a bit iffy for a translation.

But, the major thing I see is that the OP for that statement, and the corresponding Blue response, were both posted in the "Damage Dealing" forums. This was not a tanking topic, it was a DPS topic. If I remember correctly, and I'm sure I do, the nerfs to DW for DKs stemmed from tanking in the first place, and the blues stated something akin to "DKs were never intended to tank using 1-handed weapons and the nerfs are a reflection of that." In nerfing DW for tanking, they also nerfed DW for DPS.

The only thing I can truly conclude from GC's comment 20 days ago is (conclude logically, I should say), is that DKs will be able to DPS with DW more effectively ... or at least the devs are planning on implimenting a change to DW or DW abilities/talents to make them more effective and/or comparable to 2-handed DPS, while still placing a larger emphasis on not being able to tank while dual weilding. Again, this was a DPS topic in a DPS forum, and the whole reason DW DPS needs a buff is because Blizz stately quite implicately that DKs should not DW while tanking. I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion from the statement "next major patch."

I want to touch on ML responsibilities from my point of view and also compile the best thoughts I've seen throughout this thread ... but this one post is getting way too long and I think it needs it's on post. Also, I'm on TDY with the Air Force atm, so I'm on the hotel computer and need to let somebody else have some internet time, too. So, I'll post that later.

Thank your time (if you don't "TLDR" me). For the most parts, I think the discussions here have been great and some wonderful opinions and suggestions to help other people in ML positions have been brought to light.

Also, thank you for keeping the flames away, there was potential for some extreme arguing with this topic and I'm happy TankSpot has such fantastic members that are open for discussion such as this!

Mofotrey
06-10-2009, 01:53 PM
As much as it pains me to say this... (My guild doesn't run Naxx 25 and I have to PUG it every week... I've lost Last Laugh roll to a warrior OT that barely tanked anything the entire run 3 times now -_-) I think that the DK should have gotten it since he won the roll.

Basically you came into the raid as a DPS - If you clear that you'll be rolling on Tank items with the RL, ML, and other tanks beforehand it'd be different but otherwise since the Dual Spec addition I've been a firm believer that your 'Main spec' for the raid is the spec that you're coming in as. Otherwise you have 6 or 7 DPS warriors, DKs, and Paladins trying to roll on tank gear over the people actually tanking claiming that their real main spec is tanking.

Since you came in as a DPS you should be rolling on LL as offspec for that raid, and since the DK is using 2Hers he should roll on it as offspec, too. He won the offspec role so he deserved it.

If it were a matter of him rolling on something he MIGHT be able to use IF Blizz makes changes it'd be different, but hoenstly DW DK Tanking is possible and totally effective if done correctly as of right now. My DK alt which I rarely play still does it and I'd be extremely pissed if I won a roll for Last Laugh to go with my Broken Promise and it was given to a warrior that came into the raid DPSing instead.


The role of a Master Looter in a PUG raid is not to play God and decide who needs what more, his role is to be fair to everyone in the raid. Deciding that a certain class shouldn't use a certain weapon type and giving it to someone else after a roll isn't being fair. What if a ML decided that a Fury warrior shouldn't win Inevitable Defeat after winning the roll on it because he already has an epic 2Her and should be Arms instead?

Molohk
06-10-2009, 02:34 PM
For instance, the DKs in the raid, and also in this very thread, that all state "Blizz is working on DW for DKs, so even if tanking is not optimal (or viable, there seems to be debate on that even amongst the DKs) right now, it will be soon, and therefore the DK should get it."

I have yet to meet a DK (who knows his class) who honestly believes DW is not viable.

About ML responsabilities and powers: In a guild run you can use a certain ammount of judgement when distributing loot, simply because everyone is working together for progression as a group, so all the raid will benefit if a tanking weapon goes to the tank that will make the best use of it. The same principle does not apply on a PuG, every player in the PuG is there for his own individual benefit (or for the benefit of their own respective raids).

To illustrate: I ran Naxx25 PuGs for a while because I wanted to upgrade my Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784) because the damn Hodir ring never drops for our raid and I thought the upgrade would benefit my guild, when an upgrade finnaly dropped I won the roll and the second place roller was another tank who was wearing some crappy lvl 78 ring. In a normal guild-run situation I would've passed because the raid would benefit more if the upgrade went to the lesser geared raider, but I looted the ring because I was in that PuG to benefit my guild's progression and if that ring went to some other tank I don't even know, that just won't do anything for my guild. There's also no way for a PuG ML to evaluate how much an upgrade will benefit each roller, a small upgrade for a guild's MT would benefit his guild more than a big upgrade for some other guy who usually raids as DPS (as an example), and it's just not practical to profile every roller to be able to decide. Because of this, I feel the only responsability of a PuG ML is to make sure loot rules are enforced, and loot rules should be clear from the start (main spec first, and you roll for the role you bring to the PuG).

I think most of us agree that of all the rollers, the OP would've benefitted from LL the most, but because the PuG is there to satisfy the individual needs of the PuGers and not a collective goal of progression, I believe the loot should go to the highest roller of those that fit the looting rules. Aguing someone is currently not specced for DW doesn't hold much weight IMO (as long as the DK plan on respeccing accordingly within their current role), because it feels like telling an arms warrior he can't role on an mace because he is currently mace spec, both of them are planning on respeccing to be able to upgrade. A couple of months ago I in fact allowed a 2H dps DK (wielding a rep weapon) to roll against rogues on 1Hers, because he said he was waiting for 2 good 1Hers before respecing for DW, he actually got 2 1Hers that run and respecced immediately.

UsalCrab
06-10-2009, 11:08 PM
I hate DKs.

anul
06-11-2009, 12:27 PM
as of recent i have gotten my dk up to lvl 80 and am going main spec tank, well really offtank because of the fact that i wanna duel wield. it is alot easier to get your deff ratting as a dw dk but for it to go to them if it is not an upgread or a main spec is totally bogus. the ml was right to give it to you first, like you said there is nothing in blizz notes that says they are uping dw tanks and i doubt they ever will but untill they do i think that LL should go to main spec prot tanks that can actually use it and then if there isnt one then it gose to maine spec dk tanks then after that offspec. but thats just my take on it

LadyFirehawk
07-04-2009, 03:18 PM
That would NOT have flown in most of the raids I've been in. You're there as DPS, you roll on DPS items. Period. The ML screwed up in giving the item to someone who didn't actually win the roll.

It's one of those Murphy's Law-type risks we take in dual-speccing. (Or bringing different characters to a raid, for that matter.)

Retributor
08-20-2009, 09:05 AM
This is all so redundant. DW tanking is not viable, the increased parry hasting and hugely decreased hit chance invalidate any positives that could come from it (and there really aren't any anyway). You would have to purposely avoid huge effective health and avoidance gains simply to substitute expertise and hit for it to ever be remotely 'effective'. This still of course does not mention the fact that tanking weapons would still probably be some of the the worst choices due to their fast swing timers, which would lead to lower damage, more parry haste and therefore less threat and higher damage taken (probably resulting in burst related deaths).

But anyway, now that's out of the way...

I would have given it to the warrior, it wouldn't have even been discussed, it would have been automatic. Would you let a Hunter roll on Betrayer of Humanity? Well, it could easily be an upgrade for them. Encouraging people's delusions and letting people roll on, and win stuff they shouldn't won't make you a good Master Looter, it does the exact opposite.

You can argue all day that the loot rules were highest /roll and it being a PuG, but that doesn't void common sense and it definitely doesn't make giving loot to deluded individuals any more valid. I don't play to cuddle scrubs who don't understand mechanics, especially not in PuGs.

Thundercud
08-20-2009, 09:29 AM
DW tanking is not viable, the increased parry hasting and hugely decreased hit chance invalidate any positives that could come from it (and there really aren't any anyway). You would have to purposely avoid huge effective health and avoidance gains simply to substitute expertise and hit for it to ever be remotely 'effective'. This still of course does not mention the fact that tanking weapons would still probably be some of the the worst choices due to their fast swing timers, which would lead to lower damage, more parry haste and therefore less threat and higher damage taken (probably resulting in burst related deaths).

[...] I don't play to cuddle scrubs who don't understand mechanics, especially not in PuGs.

Please stop spreading misinformation. Especially on the forum that has done the most to dispell those very falsehoods you are spouting in your post. In order to help you better "understand mechanics" please check out these threads to get smart about DW DK tanking. 3.2 and DK DW'ing (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51627-3-2-dk-dw-ing.html) and Deathknight DW Tanking Discussion (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/54264-deathknight-dw-tanking-discussion.html) should set you straight on the current state of DW tanking.

PS You're welcome. :)

Theotherone
08-20-2009, 09:48 AM
Interesting note here and more relevant after 3.2. As a forst DK tank, I would not even think to dual wield, (I dual wielded while leveling cause it really does look cool, but that was then) however, to base a loot ditribution on what you subjectively beleive is a good or bad tanking spec is absolutely unfair. Basically, who is some lootmaster to decide that "oh, DK's can't be good dual wielding tanks so I'm going to ignore the winning role and give the weapon to someone else who came in to the raid as a dps." Blizzard gave DK's the ability to dual wield and anyone playing that toon has a right to gear their toon so they can play as they like. How can DK's take advantage of or try the new Frost talent if they can't get weapons cause some elitist feels they know better. If there's a problem with dual wield DK tanks, then complain to Blizz to take the ability out of the game.


Plus changning gear to roll, getting owned in the roll by a main spec (the spec he walked in with) and then actually getting loot; that's just wrong, plain wrong.

Thundercud
08-20-2009, 09:51 AM
^^ /Agree

I think you're right on with that reasoning Theotherone.

Meldwyn
08-20-2009, 10:08 AM
Why roll at all if the ML is just going to give it to whomever has the "better argument" on need and use? Just present your arguments to the judge for any given loot and he can pronounce his judgement and give it to whomever he/she wants.

On a side note, I was OT on an OS run and won a roll for class gear, then later when everyone rolled for the satchel, I had the highest roll then too. The ML gave it to the second highest because I had already rec'd something... I said nothing! "Thanks for the run guys, take care" was my final communication. No biggie! Its a game! We really need to keep this in mind. We play with electronic Ken's and Barbies with Monopoly Money and get all worked up over silly in game stuff that really really really doesn't matter two hoots in RL.

Just my 2 copper!

Daereg
08-20-2009, 10:13 AM
I try to lead a Naxx25 every week, I'm yet to encounter LL, we do 2xNeeds per person and everyone can roll on anything so I'd have to give it to the highest roller, and I haven't seen anyone dual wielding 2 tanking weapons in...well, ever.
Besides that, whats the DK wielding? If hes the MT, I'd guess he has a pretty good Two-Hander already and shouldn't need 2x1Handers, are they really that much better?
My preference would be to give it to the Warrior/Paladin tank, but thats just what I'm used to.

Splug
08-20-2009, 10:22 AM
RISE FROM THE GRAVE, THREADLY MINION!
The context of this debate has changed drastically from when it was posted two months ago. That said, the root of it is still in pug loot mechanics. In my opinion, when loot's being conducted mainspec over offspec, the primary determining factor is the role filled, not the specific means of filling the role. For example, I would not have a problem with an arms warrior getting a second 2h for his fury build - it's one slot changed, the rest of his gear has extremely strong overlap. Likewise, a 2h-using deathknight rolling for a 1h - be it a tank rolling for a defensive 1h or a dps rolling for an offensive 1h - would be in the right. The entire armor/trinket ensemble is consistent between the two specs, and a 50 gold barrier is absolutely trivial.

The line gets fuzzy when a tank deathknight wants to roll for a slow damage 1h as a tanking weapon. Until slow tanking 1h's make a reappearance, that's actually a legitimate decision from a threat/survivability tradeoff perspective, and one I frequently make during raids. Similarly, what happens when a warrior wants a pyrite infuser (passive hit rating, AP proc) as a threat trinket? I could understand a call on either of those going both ways as far as being main-spec priority, though I personally would go with that pushing interpretation a little too far and being non-priority.

-Splug

Punchingbag
08-20-2009, 06:07 PM
Last night I landed in a pickup group in Naxx 25 with Maexxna, Saph, and KT left to go. When I arrived I changed out my Port spec/gear and went Fury.


I think the first part says it all. (pug and changed spec)

Bottom line is that even though it sucks you went as a DPS spec so its not a main spec roll for you at that time. Furthermore, you did get to roll on it anyway and lost. You ended up with the axe and I could see how someone who won a main spec roll against you only to end up not getting the item could be ticked off about it.

As a member of THAT particular raid, your main spec was Fury and you shouldn't have got a roll against any main spec rollers. Only after there were no main spec rollers should it then be up to off-spec rollers.

Imagine if every Pally or Druid Healer rolled on every tank item for their other spec. (i.e "I am normally a tank and just healing for this raid so that is my main spec")

When you show up for a raid, you fill a roll (tank, heal, or dps) and you're only entitled to roll on your role items unless no one else rolls and they move to secondary specs, etc.

Hades
09-13-2009, 11:13 PM
Here's my little bit of change out of the couch.

As much as I hate to say it, and would love to do it, DW DK tanking won't be viable until Rune Strike gets added to the new Threat of Thassarian talent. That said, you came in as Fury and unless you explained to the ML that you could use a couple upgrades in prot before joining the raid, he kinda screwed up. Pug or no, ML has to stick to the rules set before they flew up from Wintergarde Keep. I'm glad you got your new axe, but the price it came with (MLs potentially going against their initial rules, excessive drama) were much too heavy.

Blue
09-16-2009, 12:29 PM
Problems like this are why I don't pug, unless I go in with thought of only getting badges. The loot system in WoW is a seriously defective mechanism, imo. It should be totally "autopilot"...that is, either everyone gets a drop for a kill, that's specific to their character, or everyone rolls on one drop--for a special item to be chosen by the winner, later (like the badge system, only one time items). Personally, I like the everyone wins something specific line...can still be epic, or not, but at least something, and not subject to drama, or arguement...plus, those who just like to kvetch could still do so...ad nauseum.