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Tarigar
06-05-2009, 09:04 AM
So I haven't seen anyone talk about it. I am with almost every warrior and think agility is great.

However one thing I noticed awhile back when I had Broken Promise with mongoose, is in a raid setting the actual proc was only giving me about .12%-.25% dodge.

I monitored it closely because I thought I was seeing things and I even made sure my glasses were on.

When I was not in a raid I was getting about the 1.2% dodge I should get from it.

After that experience I have been a firm believer in going for another enchant besides mongoose.

Anyone else noticed anything similar. This is mainly focused for warriors.

Molohk
06-05-2009, 09:21 AM
If my math is correct, Mongoose should give 1.63% before DR. If you had 30% dodge before DR (and translates to around 23.16% after DR, which is pretty high, for the sake analysis), mongoose would only add 0.91% dodge after DR. I really can't see how normal DR could bring mongoose down to 0.12% or 0.25%, unless there was some kind of additional DR based on your level (like the one in crusader), but i don't think that's the case.

How are you measuring the effect of mongoose?

Tarigar
06-05-2009, 09:35 AM
I had 26.5% dodge unbuffed and no procs. I found somewhere that 102 agility equates to 1% so with mongoose granting 120 agility it was roughly 1.17.

I always get curious to how items effect me when used so I always pop open the character screen. So my measurements were changes in my dodge% on my character screen when in combat. I also ensured that I never had something else that could wear off.

Molohk
06-05-2009, 09:51 AM
At lvl 80, 73.52941176 Agi = 1% dodge (EJ link: Combat Ratings at lvl 80 (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/))

As far as I know, the character screen shows your info before diminishing returns, so you can't really trust it.

Tarigar
06-05-2009, 10:12 AM
That doesn't make sense. If you can't trust your own character screen then what can you actually base any of your stats off of? Even then if my character screen shows me going up .12-.25% before DR then wouldn't it even be less?

My formula for agi-dodge may be wrong but it is still the question if there is a DR on agility.

I am trying to find where I found the caps it was either here or on EJ. It wasn't the spreadsheet.

Tarigar
06-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Quote from this website

AgilityAgility increases ranged attack power, chance on crit, armor and chance to dodge.

1 agility = 1 ranged attack power
1 agility = 2 armor
62.5 agility = 1% chance to crit
102 agility = 1% chance to dodge


source (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f56/46925-defensive-stance-warrior-information-compilation.html)

That is where i picked up my information from.

Kazeyonoma
06-05-2009, 10:37 AM
Your character sheet before you highlight anything IS after DRs. that you can trust.

When you highlight over your Dodge % and it says 9.53% gained from items (Before DR).

THAT # is before drs. but the 23% or whatever, that's POST DRs.

don't fret about that.


To answer your question. Yes Agi IS on DR.

Go to the critical guide forum here, and go to Satrina's Diminishing returns thread. IN THE FORMULA for calculating your POST DR Dodge, it has a place for where you put in dodge gained from agility, and THEN your combined total dodge, is DR'd.

Tarigar
06-05-2009, 11:06 AM
I checked that out and thank you for the direction.

So since sum of dodge rating is what suffers from DR would it be safe to say that agility gives grants dodge rating and not an actual direct conversion to a given%?

Or is there an agility cap which wasn't covered. So horn of winter + nobles deck etc.

Kazeyonoma
06-05-2009, 02:26 PM
i think you're confusing dodge chance with dodge rating.

Dodge rating, has a set rating conversion to 1% dodge chance.
Agility, has a set stat conversion to 1% dodge chance.

you tally up your total dodge chance from buffs/gear (basically anything you don't get from talents or from innate stats like base agility and innate dodge), and put it into the DR formula.

like in Satrina's example here:

Example 1 - Dodge

Suppose a warrior has 5% dodge when naked with +261 agility from gear, +557 defense on gear, and +368 dodge rating on gear:

First, calculate the base dodge chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 557/4.9185 = 113.24591 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base dodge chance: 113.24591 * 0.04 = 4.52984%
1c) Convert dodge rating to base dodge chance: 368/39.34799 = 9.35245%
1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 261 * 0.01360 = 3.5496%

We calculate A as the sum of dodge from 1b, 1c, and 1d: A = (4.52984 + 9.35245 + 3.5496)

2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(4.52984 + 9.35245 + 3.5496) = 0.05484
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + 0.05484 = 0.06619
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.06619 = 15.10824%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

Now add the diminished dodge from gear to the dodge when naked, and the warrior will end up with 5% + 15.11% = 20.11% dodge

Tarigar
06-05-2009, 03:42 PM
Note to self: Try not to read something when half asleep especially something that involves math.

I calculated the formula basically from what you quoted and just inserted my own data.

First, calculate the base dodge chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 720/4.9185 = 146.38609 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base dodge chance: 146.38609 * 0.04 = 5.85544%
1c) Convert dodge rating to base dodge chance: 545/39.34799 = 13.85077%
1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 22 * 0.01360 = .2992%

We calculate A as the sum of dodge from 1b, 1c, and 1d: A = (4.52984 + 9.35245 + 3.5496)

2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(5.85544 + 13.85077 + .2992) = 0.04779
(0.956/20.00537)
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + 0.04779 = 0.05914
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.05914 = 16.91%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

Now add the diminished dodge from gear to the dodge when naked, and the warrior will end up with 5% + 16.91% = 21.91% dodge.
If I add the 5% from anticipation it comes to 26.91. My actual dodge is 26.86 and with a .05% margin I agree it is greatly accurate.

So keeping with the same formula using 25 man raid buffs.
Horn of Winter/Totem=155 Agility
Mark=37 Agility
Gear=22 Agility (Click on my name in sig to go to my armory)
Kings=10%*(22+155+37)=21.4
Total Agility Gained Raid buffed=235.4
Here is the formula(s)
First, calculate the base dodge chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 720/4.9185 = 146.38609 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base dodge chance: 146.38609 * 0.04 = 5.85544%
1c) Convert dodge rating to base dodge chance: 545/39.34799 = 13.85077%
1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 235 * 0.01360 = 3.196%

We calculate A as the sum of dodge from 1b, 1c, and 1d: A = (4.52984 + 9.35245 + 3.5496)

2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(5.85544 + 13.85077 + 3.196) = 0.04174
(0.956/22.90221)
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + 0.04174 = 0.05309
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.05309 = 18.83%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

Now add the diminished dodge from gear to the dodge when naked, and the warrior will end up with 5% + 18.83% +5%(talents)= 28.83% dodge
Which I am a little over 29% Raid buffed (Could be missed buffs rounding errors)

Now with mongoose assuming 355 Agility on proc
First, calculate the base dodge chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 720/4.9185 = 146.38609 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base dodge chance: 146.38609 * 0.04 = 5.85544%
1c) Convert dodge rating to base dodge chance: 545/39.34799 = 13.85077%
1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 355 * 0.01360 = 4.828%

We calculate A as the sum of dodge from 1b, 1c, and 1d: A = (4.52984 + 9.35245 + 4.828)

2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(5.85544 + 13.85077 + 4.828) = 0.03896
(0.956/24.53421)
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + 0.03896 = 0.05031
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.05031 = 19.88%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

Now add the diminished dodge from gear to the dodge when naked, and the warrior will end up with 5% + 19.88% +5%(talents)= 29.88% dodge

With that I should still be gaining about 1% dodge on mongoose proc. I wasn't experiencing that from what i remember. I will have to do some more testing and take screen shots to figure it out.

Kazeyonoma
06-05-2009, 04:11 PM
yeah, that's the kinda number i've been seeing people post is around 1% so it's possible maybe your eyes were deceiving you.