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jere
06-03-2009, 06:20 PM
Overview:
Taunt is an ability shared by all Tank classes in some form. Taunt has 3 main functions:

1. Forces the mob to attack you for a set duration of time (3 seconds base).
2. Sets your threat equal to the current aggro holder (I.E. at 100%)
3. Makes you the current aggro holder.

There is a small difference between #1 and #3 in that #1 is called a Fixate. It just makes you the current aggro holder for the duration of the debuff. A few of the tank classes have other abilities that do #1, but do not do #2 or #3. Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout, and Challenging Roar are among these Fixate only abilities. Those abilities that only have the Fixate property usually Fixate for longer (6 seconds rather than 3). The difference for #3 is that it makes you the current aggro holder until someone pulls aggro or you lose aggro through some other fight mechanic (or death). It doesn't have a time limit or debuff associated with it.

NOTE: There are various combinations of these 3 things that can occur on special mobs. Some mobs are totally immune to taunt and none of the 3 occur (this also can happen through diminishing returns). Some mobs will take the fixate but not affect your threat or aggro status at all. The Instructor Razuveous adds are among these. In general, though, taunts will either fully work, or fully fail.



Class Taunts:
Warrior:
Taunt - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=355) -- Single Target 30 yard Taunt

Druid:
Growl - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=6795) -- Single Target 30 yard Taunt

Paladin:
Righteous Defense - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31789) -- 3 Random Targets 40 yard Taunt (all targets must be targetting the same player)
Hand of Reckoning - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62124) -- Single Target 30 yard Taunt

Death Knight:
Dark Command - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56222) -- Single Target 30 yard Taunt
Death Grip - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576) -- Single Target 30 yard Taunt with Pull Mechanic



Class Fixates:
Warrior:
Challenging Shout - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=1161) -- AoE 10 yard Fixate

Druid:
Challenging Roar - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=5209) -- AoE 10 yard Fixate



Diminshing Returns:
UPDATE: In patch 3.3, Blizzard turned off Diminishing returns for most mobs.

# Taunt Diminishing Returns: We've revised the system for diminishing returns on Taunt so that creatures do not become immune to Taunt until after 5 Taunts have landed. The duration of the Taunt effect will be reduced by 35% instead of 50% for each taunt landed. In addition, most creatures in the world will not be affected by Taunt diminishing returns at all. Creatures will only have Taunt diminishing returns if they have been specifically flagged for that behavior based on the design of a given encounter.

For enemies that have taunt diminishing returns enabled, this is how DR works: if you taunt every time on cooldown, then the first taunt works as normal, the second taunt will work as normal, but only fixate for 65% the duration (1.95 seconds), the third taunt will work as normal, but only fixate for 65% of the second taunt's duration (1.2675 seconds), and so on. The sixth taunt will go immune and none of the effects of taunt will apply.

Diminishing returns will reset if you do not taunt for a set period of time. As of this time the duration of the diminishing returns seems to be around 18 seconds. I tested this by taunting on cooldown over and over again and noting the times (UPDATE: I tested this during the 3-taunt era, but the results should be the same, just after 5 taunts instead). The first three taunts landed, the next two were immune, and the next one landed. Testing also shows that immune attempts don't start the diminishing returns timer as the sixth attempt landed. As a note, Fixate only abilities like Challenging Roar also apply diminishing returns to targets and will count against your taunts in that respect.

Hit Mechanics:
As of a Cataclysm patch, taunts no longer miss. There are no "hit mechanics" for taunts now.

jere
06-03-2009, 06:23 PM
I posted this in Theory and Mechanics initially in case I made a mistake or someone wanted to submit some counter Data (parses, screenshots, etc.). Suggestions/Corrections/Discussion is welcome.

EDIT: Adding this for reference purposes:
EDIT: Based on testing, I think the DR on taunt is 18 seconds. Waiting 17 seconds after taunting, the next taunt was immune. Waiting 19 seconds after taunting, the taunt landed successfully. The last successful taunt was the 3rd taunt, so DR had the debuff duration at 0.75 seconds. I think 18 seconds is a safe bet, despite GC's post on it being 15 seconds.

EDIT: Old WotlK Data (No longer completely correct):
************************************************** ******
Hit Mechanics:
This is a topic of heated debate, but here are what I believe to be the facts:

1. The taunt hit cap against bosses is the spell hit cap of 17%. The hit cap for taunt is not the melee cap. This can easily be tested by putting on 9% melee hit gear and taunting over and over again. I put on enough to have 9.45% melee hit. Doing so I missed on my target.

Remember that the hit cap that applies to you is determined by the level of the mob you are attacking. If you are level 80, then the following applies to you (I need to verify levels 80-82):
Level 80 target => 4% miss
Level 81 target => 5% miss
Level 82 target => 6% miss
Level 83 target => 17% miss (Boss)

Here are the testing results if anyone wants to see them:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7751/wowscrnshot060109195218.jpg

2. Taunt chance to hit is increased on the scale of spell hit. I put on 448 hit rating, which is 17.08% spell hit and 13.66% melee hit and then proceeded to taunt a target 283 times. Out of all of those times, there was not a single actual miss. The odds of that happening are about 6.681 in 100000 if taunt increased with melee hit and not spell hit.

I know in 2.3, that melee hit was allowed to increase taunt. However, in WotLK, the two stats are now merged, and only one can increase taunt hit. From my testing it looks like it increases with the scale of spell hit and not melee hit.

To quote Satorri:


For all tank classes 'Taunt/Growl/Dark Command/Hand of Reckoning' is a spell and takes its caps and rating conversions accordingly, from spell hit chances.


Here are the testing results if anyone wants to see them. I had 242 hits, 41 crits, and 150 immunes (notice they are listed as "other" and not "miss").
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2764/tauntresults.jpg

3. Taunt does not double dip. I.E. it is not affected by both spell hit and melee hit at the same time. If you look at my testing in #1, I had 9.45% melee hit. At the same time I had 11.81% spell hit. Combined I would have had 21.26% hit. If taunt double dipped, I wouldn't have missed, but I did. So even though hit rating gives you both stats, only one affects it, and that is spell hit.

NecroNetics
06-04-2009, 02:35 AM
I posted this in Theory and Mechanics initially in case I made a mistake or someone wanted to submit some counter Data (parses, screenshots, etc.). Suggestions/Corrections/Discussion is welcome.

Paladins taunt is on spell hit and warriors/druids is on melee, isnt it?

Shortypop
06-04-2009, 03:08 AM
Personally I find the comment "does not increase with melee hit" confusing, since apart from the odd skill/enchant they are the same thing. I guess what you mean is the number of your melee hit doesn't effect your taunt chance, but your hit rating does affect it (through the conversion to spell hit)?

Roarc
06-04-2009, 03:42 AM
Taunt increase from spell hit and your hit rating will be translated into both physical hit chance and spell hit chance (i.e. taunt). Stacking hit should remove chances of taunt resists or have I missed something fundamental?

Questions:
- Does a mob suffer diminishing returns even if just using taunt every 8 seconds (i.e. the CD of taunt)?
- Is the diminishing returns stacking and then resetting, i.e after 3 taunts you will have to wait X seconds (say 16 seconds) for the DR to wear off and then you can taunt 3 times again, or would be have it getting "more and more" and later "less and less" stacks of a DR?
- Does fixate and taunt have different or shared diminishing return charts?

Awesome you bring this up btw. Would be interesting to have similar topics about DR surrounding stuns as well.

Regards
Roarc

Hengist
06-04-2009, 03:46 AM
Paladins taunt is on spell hit and warriors/druids is on melee, isnt it?
Nope. All taunts have spell miss chance. Easy to test, taunts still can miss with 8% hit.

Belak
06-04-2009, 05:02 AM
Personally I find the comment "does not increase with melee hit" confusing, since apart from the odd skill/enchant they are the same thing. I guess what you mean is the number of your melee hit doesn't effect your taunt chance, but your hit rating does affect it (through the conversion to spell hit)?

What he's trying to say is that "hit rating" converts to "hit chance" at a different scale for melee vs spells. More specifically:

32.79 hit rating = 1% chance to hit for melee attacks at level 80
26.23 hit rating = 1% chance to hit for spell attacks at level 80

So if you need 17% hit to prevent taunt from hitting, that would be 559.3 hit rating if it were physical. But since it's a spell, you only need 445.91 hit rating to cap it.

I can't imagine anyone actually doing this, but there it is.

Does that help?

Astemus
06-04-2009, 01:42 PM
So with the glyph, you would only need 349 hit rating to never miss a taunt, because the glyph gives 8% to hit with taunts, which means it's worth 209.84 hit rating for taunting.

Does that add up? If you ever get bored and want to verify the glyph is working as intended. God knows you must have the patience of a monk, Jere.

jere
06-04-2009, 03:49 PM
Personally I find the comment "does not increase with melee hit" confusing, since apart from the odd skill/enchant they are the same thing. I guess what you mean is the number of your melee hit doesn't effect your taunt chance, but your hit rating does affect it (through the conversion to spell hit)?
Belak pretty much hit the nose on the head with his statement. They do share the same rating stat, "hit", but they scale differently. You get 25% more spell hit per hit rating than you do melee hit per hit rating. So the 448 rating that gave me about 13.66% melee hi (check your melee tab on the character sheet), will also, at the same time, give you 13.66*1.25 = 17.08% spell hit. The same hit rating increases both, but does so at different rates. The important thing to find out is if it's the melee hit % or the spell hit % that gets you capped at 17%. It appears from my testing that it is the spell hit %, which is good, because, as Belak stated, that means you need less hit to cap your taunt than you might think (assuming you knew you were aiming for 17%).

I think you might be getting stuck on the idea that hit rating means melee hit rating by default, which is understandable. I have a hard time forgetting not to think of hit rating as spell hit only. In either case, I am definitely open to suggestions on how to make it clearer. Maybe I will put up a blurb about it if I can think of something clearer to say.


Taunt increase from spell hit and your hit rating will be translated into both physical hit chance and spell hit chance (i.e. taunt). Stacking hit should remove chances of taunt resists or have I missed something fundamental?

Questions:
- Does a mob suffer diminishing returns even if just using taunt every 8 seconds (i.e. the CD of taunt)?
- Is the diminishing returns stacking and then resetting, i.e after 3 taunts you will have to wait X seconds (say 16 seconds) for the DR to wear off and then you can taunt 3 times again, or would be have it getting "more and more" and later "less and less" stacks of a DR?
- Does fixate and taunt have different or shared diminishing return charts?

Awesome you bring this up btw. Would be interesting to have similar topics about DR surrounding stuns as well.

Regards
Roarc
- It looks like DR on taunt lasts around 20 seconds, so doing it every cooldown (which is what I did most of the time during my testing), will put it on DR at the 4th taunt.

- Yes, after the 3rd taunt, you have to wait some time period for it to reset, and that time period starts from the last successful taunt. I don't know the timer period, but it is some time between 16 and 24 seconds. I am guessing it is 20 seconds, but that is only a guess. Taunts that are immune or resisted don't appear to affect DR (I.E. they don't count against you).

- I don't know if the fixate skills like Mocking blow share DR with taunt. I will try to check that next time I hope on my warrior.



So with the glyph, you would only need 349 hit rating to never miss a taunt, because the glyph gives 8% to hit with taunts, which means it's worth 209.84 hit rating for taunting.

Does that add up? If you ever get bored and want to verify the glyph is working as intended. God knows you must have the patience of a monk, Jere.
LoL, well we had a lot of afk's last night, so I had a lot of time to burn while waiting for the raid to fill up and Darnassus is nice and quiet this time of year.

As for the ratings:
17% - 8% = 9%

I think my testing shows that's 9% spell hit, so then, it should take:
9*26.23199272 = 236.09 or 237 rating (if my math is right).

The glyph would be worth 8%*26.23199272 = 209.86 rating, yes.

Molohk
06-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Good post, very useful.

Regarding the DR: GC did say it was on 15 second timer, perhaps the timer starts after the 3 second buff fades, so it would bring it to a total of 18 seconds after the last taunt. Here's the quote from GC post (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15673097654&sid=1&pageNo=4) (emphasis added): "It shouldn't affect the Razuvious fight. The diminishing returns only lasts 15 seconds (not the whole fight) and that encounter is timed more for 30 second taunts. Secondly, we can just make the Understudy taunts not diminish."

Satorri
06-04-2009, 04:04 PM
Do the diminishing returns last that long? I've never been readily able to watch the reducing effect.

Other moves (particularly in pvp) will have a 10 sec fall off, so first does 10 sec, second does 8, then 4, then 2, then immune. 20 sec is pretty severe since it seems the 3rd or 4th taunt will make it immune.


The simple statement is as follows:
For all tank classes 'Taunt/Growl/Dark Command/Hand of Reckoning' is a spell and takes its caps and rating conversions accordingly, from spell hit chances.

It always bears reminding the spell miss chances for a level 80 are:
80 target = 4% miss
81 target = 5% miss
82 target = 6% miss
83(Boss) target = 17% miss

You only have an appreciable chance to miss on a boss (which as someone pointed out elsewhere is more common in Ulduar and very uncommon in Naxx/OS/EoE, or at least not required).

I'm sure Jere is right about the glyph effect, 8% off the miss chance as a spell. That means the glyph makes any non-boss require 0 hit rating to taunt, and for the boss Jere has the number above.

jere
06-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Well it definitely could have been some sort of latency, but this was a repeatable test for me (yall should check it yourselves and report back as well incase it is on my end).

Target a boss target dummy, hit taunt on every cooldown (8 seconds). When I did, this happened:

00.0 Taunt 1 hit
08.0 Taunt 2 hit
16.0 Taunt 3 hit
24.0 Taunt 4 immune
32.0 Taunt 5 immune
40.0 Taunt 6 hit

It's possible I lost two seconds in latency in the first 3 pushes. See if yall get the same thing. It could also be that 15 seconds was the intended value and it got bumped up. I did that test about 70-75 times while testing out the hit cap for taunt, and every time had the same results.

jere
06-04-2009, 04:46 PM
Here's a screen shot of a recent try:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5503/tauntclog.jpg

36:46 - Taunt hits
36:54 - Taunt hits
37:02 - Taunt hits
37:10 - Immune
37:19 - Immune
37:27 - Taunt hits

Notice here, taunt is immune for at least 17 seconds (37:02-37:19)

The only thing I can think of is that the DR starts when the Fixate debuff wears off?, which would put it at 37:02+3secs = 37:05 start time, and that would be 14 seconds at 37:19.

Though that is a technical gotcha if that is the case. For taunts, we typically more care about from the time it was last cast. So that would make the DR from my perspective 18 seconds, when it is "technically" 15 seconds, you just have to add the fixate buff duration in there.

EDIT: Actually, scratch that thought. The third taunt would have had a fixate duration of 3/4 = 0.75 seconds (shows that roughly in the combat log), so 37:03 to 37:19 would have been like 16 seconds at least, which doesn't add up with the 15 seconds GC posted.

Tarigar
06-04-2009, 05:00 PM
So I am thinking that the change was implemented to prevent tanks from just spam taunting a boss like widow back and forth to avoid getting hit at all.

This messed with us at first in my guild and did our first week on Ignis with the Moltens. Too many people were trying to tank and not trust the other.

Satorri
06-05-2009, 05:37 AM
It is Tari, with the number of bosses in Uld that require multiple tanks as well they didn't want people pingponging them for a free pass.


Oh, and Jere, I think I have some insight. It makes it a little hard to figure out the actual duration, but the window probably gets refreshed with each taunt. In other words, taunt has a 3 sec visible effect where it changes targets to you, and it then has an invisible window during which time additional taunts will fall under the raising immunity. If GC said 15 sec then it's still longer than I expected.

So first tank taunts and sets a 15 sec window, when the second tank taunts, even 8 sec later, he restarts the 15 sec window but now with 2 taunts on the list. Thanks to your tests I think we can safely assume it's 4th taunt will be immune (3 taunts will work). I'm a little surprised its so long a window, but GC's words seem pretty clear from reading the post and the context. This should be easily testable and I'll edit this in a little bit when I go online. (yay for lazy fridays!)

jere
06-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Yeah, but it would need to be longer than 15 seconds if two taunts in a row go immune. It's not just the 4th taunt, but the 5th taunt as well. That's at least 16 seconds of DR in effect.

I was actually already assuming the window gets refreshed with each successful taunt, but it seems longer if two taunts in a row are immune before taunt DR falls off.

I guess what I am saying is:



T_______T_______T_______I_______I_______T
D_______D_______D_______________X_______D



In that example, DR resets 3 times at first, each with each new taunt every 8 seconds. The 4th taunt goes immune and doesn't reset DR. I put an X under the 5th Taunt, because if DR lasted 15 seconds, I would expect the taunt to succeed and DR to reset here. But instead, the 5th taunt is also immune (16 seconds after the 3rd taunt), and DR isn't reset there because the 6th taunt is successful.

I can't figure out where the 15 seconds would go if it were still true.

jere
06-05-2009, 01:51 PM
Here is another parse I did tonight. In this scenario, the following happened:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2636/tauntclog2.jpg

41:55 Taunt 1 Hit
42:04 Taunt 2 misses
42:12 Taunt 3 hits
42:21 Taunt 4 hits
42:38 Taunt 5 is immune

So here we see that misses don't refresh DR (which is good), but also notice that Taunt #5 happens 17 seconds after Taunt 4 (I did this on purpose) and is still immune. So nothing happens for at least 16-17 seconds, but the taunt is still immune. I don't think it is 15 seconds on the DR.


I did some more testing, this time using a stop watch. When I waited 17 seconds from the last taunt, the next taunt was immune. When I taunted 19 seconds after the last taunt, the taunt passed. So it seems like the DR is 18 seconds.

Satorri
06-07-2009, 05:48 AM
Hmmmmmm

Very helpful stuff. When faced with the functional versus a dev's report of what is 'supposed' to be scripted (bearing in mind GC is not always directly privvy to the state of things and is one step removed from the actual coding), I'll trust how things actually work in practice.

Take-home message:
Be careful when and how you taunt. Communicate! That goes doubly for impromptu tanks, dps DKs and Feral kittehs who try to save the day.

(I have a couple feral kittehs who are skilled tanks and have a tendency to quick bear shift and try to snag a boss if things look like they're going wrong. If they're right it can buy us another 30 sec or time for a quick save of a dead tank, but when they're wrong they can actually just kill themselves and possibly others if they create a taunt blackout.)

Ghladum
06-20-2009, 10:38 AM
Ah, the perfect thread... thanks for this work you guys, especially Jere. /hat tip

chefjeff
06-20-2009, 03:23 PM
Most raids will have a shadow priest or boomkin so actual spell hit rate to not miss taunt would be 14 %

Satorri
06-21-2009, 05:08 AM
It contributes, but you shouldn't assume that, you simply need to be aware of the possibility. I don't always have a kin or spriest available.

Helistar
07-05-2009, 12:21 AM
A question about the taunt mechanics which comes from yesterday's experience on Instructor Razuvius. I was assigned to tank one of the adds (as usual), taunting it immediately after the mind control ends to keep it under control.
Now, the problem is I was getting constant Immunes (not miss, I checked). And I mean ALWAYS, after the end of the MC I ended up with the add running around uncontrolled, impossible to taunt. Looking on omen it was targeting heals, so it's not like another tank had taunted it. The only way to regain aggro was pure brute force (= damage).
Now, even if the palatank was spamming his aggro things (something which paladins have tendence to do.......), the duration of the mind control should be more than enough to let the "invisible debuff" wear off, so it should be impossible for me to get a taunt immune just after the mc ends. Any idea if MC is on the same timer as taunts in some way?

Pwnanapuddin
07-05-2009, 01:43 AM
Just a note in addition. Death Grip also carries a fixate ability on it.



Harness the unholy energy that surrounds and binds all matter, drawing the target toward the death knight and forcing the enemy to attack the death knight for 3 sec.

Satorri
07-05-2009, 05:55 AM
Helistar, MC technically IS a taunt (not officially, but it has that effect). When a priest MC's a target their threat is set equal to the highest threat on them, and when the effect break it has a fixate mechanic the same way. Usually a taunt will work afterwards, though. There may be something on that fight that is pausing or drawing out previous taunts during the MC effect so the new diminishing effects keep stacking.

Was this happening on the first break or only later in the fight?

jere
07-05-2009, 06:30 AM
The Razuvious adds seem to act very weirdly and have done so for a while now. While most MC'd adds act as Satori has explained, they do not. They do a complete threat reset upon break of MC. Also, while they are not immune to taunt, your threat never changes on them. In either case, the way to pick them up is to taunt for the fixate (which still works though the aggro changing part doesn't) and then burst DPS them (Shield Slam, Shield of the Righteousness, Mangle+Maul, etc.). They act very differently than most mobs.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, the amount of threat the formally MC'd mob has was equal to its max hit points though now that I think of it (not the razuvious adds though)

EDIT2: Yep, just tested it. A normal MC'ed mob will have threat against the MC caster equal to its max HP when MC breaks (the mob's max HP, not the caster's).


Just a note in addition. Death Grip also carries a fixate ability on it.

Yep, all taunts have a fixate ability in them, including Death Grip.

Bluespirit
07-06-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm confused as to why Blizzard don't class it as melee hit to cap it, why would they allow the chance to be resisted, its just stupid. Why give a hit cap to taunt when no tank will ever get it?

Helistar
07-06-2009, 11:33 AM
Helistar, MC technically IS a taunt (not officially, but it has that effect). When a priest MC's a target their threat is set equal to the highest threat on them, and when the effect break it has a fixate mechanic the same way. Usually a taunt will work afterwards, though. There may be something on that fight that is pausing or drawing out previous taunts during the MC effect so the new diminishing effects keep stacking.

Was this happening on the first break or only later in the fight?

Thanks for the explanation. maybe it would be nice to add MC to the list in the 1st post of this thread then :)
As for when: it was happening from the beginning. At the same time, if someone had spammed taunts before the MC it may be possible that the timer was NOT going down while the MC was being channeled, leading to a resist later on. What is strange is that I was dealing always with the same add, so after the 1st MC noone else tanked it except me, and I most definitely didn't spam taunt..... so the timer would have had the time to reset, but I kept getting resists throughout the entire fight.
It was some time since I had last tanked in the Razuvius fight, but I remember that in the past Naxx runs I never had any trouble with taunting the adds, maybe something was hotfixed?

Satorri
07-06-2009, 02:27 PM
MC doesn't belong on that list. =) It is a taunt as a consequence to using the spell to create a reason not to try and MC everything in sight. This thread is primarily aimed at people who want the attention.

junkilo
07-23-2009, 02:41 PM
Do we know if taunt returns will diminish regardless of what player taunted?

jere
07-23-2009, 04:44 PM
Yes, while I haven't done directed testing, I have seen it occur on Archavon. I have had the other tank taunt him multiple times and when it came time for me, my first taunt went immune.

Darwar
07-29-2009, 08:33 AM
I can confirm that the hit cap for taunt is greater than 8% melee hit for a prot warrior. I missed two taunts on Steelbreaker in two weeks at 7.20% melee hit. Last night I missed a taunt on Brundir at 8.05% hit.

Brittmari
09-07-2009, 10:57 AM
Does a taunt that misses start the diminishing returns timer?

jere
09-07-2009, 11:51 AM
Nope.

commacozzee
09-07-2009, 02:15 PM
Helistar, It was said in one of the patch notes that Razuvius' adds were no longer tauntable. Whether it was patch 3.1, 3.2 or a minor patch, I don't remember that clearly.

Junkilo, it doesn't matter who taunts, all taunts give DR for that mob.

I haven't done extensive testing but have suspected since I started tanking (or playing a melee class in general) that for abilities that can't be dodged or parried, Blizzard uses spell hit as opposed to melee hit. This includes Demo Shout, Thunder Clap, Shield Bash, and Shockwave, as well as Taunt.

Since Ulduar opened, it seems that Blizzard is taking full advantage of tauntable bosses by making encounters that require precise timing and execution on Taunts. Because of that, I've personally been using Glyph of Taunt, reducing my chance to miss to 9% spell hit. Depending on the boss, I'll either expect Misery from a spriest or not. If I get Misery, I only need 6% spell hit, which is 158 hit rating. Otherwise, I'll gear up for 237 hit rating for that all important taunt. I also use 20 Hit Rating to gloves now because of the lack of Hit on our gear. Thanks Blizz for making taunts so important then giving us NO Hit. Much <3

jere
09-08-2009, 11:50 AM
Whether or not an ability can be dodged/parried won't affect whether it is spell hit or not per say. There are attacks that cannot be dodged/parried but still work off of melee hit. Judgement and Shield of Righteousness to name a couple.

Abilities that function off of spell hit are actually spells by the way the game flags them. Shouts and taunts, for example are of the "physical" magic school (yep, that school exists, check out the combat log API).

GravityDK
09-10-2009, 09:39 AM
Just wanted to commend Jere on this work. Good to have an authoritative answer on these.

Kandiru
10-12-2009, 03:14 PM
How do fixates behave with the taunts DR, did anyone test?

We have hunter and warlock fixates as well as the warrior/druid ones which might behave differently.

jere
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Just hopping on my druid:

Growl
Challenging Roar
Growl
Growl ==> IMMUNE

So fixates count against you. I also noted in my sequence that while Challenging Roar normally lasts 6 seconds, when it followed that initial taunt, it only lasted 3 seconds

Satorri
10-13-2009, 06:13 AM
Also, this will be changing, or they want it to.

In 3.3 they're testing some changes. Specifically, this system is being stretched out to 5 taunts without immunity, and they're making it a flag they can turn on and off depending on the target. That way it will not be the case in general, but only in specific encounters where they want your tanks not to be able to taunt juggle stuff.

drae
10-13-2009, 07:02 AM
Thanks Jere, this should get stickied! With all the people moaning about lack of hit on T9 gear, and considering how important well timed taunts are in ToGC; it's really nice to have comprehensive guide that I can point people to on how taunt works.

Anyone know if vigilance refreshes taunt if your vigilance target takes environmental damage? Or from DoT's?

If so it would be really easy to do additional (and possibly more accurate, due to the quicker refreshes) testing by placing vigilance on a player and have him stand in a campfire.

kpxneophyte
10-13-2009, 08:56 AM
Nice post, though there is something that comes to mind in regards to diminishing returns.

If you would like to (with the loads of time you have, apparently), you could get a more accurate diminishing return timer down on the taunt by using both hand of reckoning and righteous defense on a boss mob, say like in Stockades or SM. Take another tank and taunt back and forth. Since diminishing return immunity happens at the end of the last non-immune taunt duration (aka the 3rd one) you should be able to taunt every 4 seconds and have a taunt rotation every 2 seconds, that is, if you bring another paladin.
(e.g.
0000 --- You Hand of Reckoning
0002 --- Him Hand of Reckoning
0004 --- You Righteous Defense
0006 --- Him Righteous Defense
Rinse and repeat)

xstratax
12-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Based on what I recall from BC heroics and Kara, and reading the Tooltip, Righteous Defence does not have a fixate, only makes you the Current Aggro Holder (#2 in the OP). I rarely ever use it in WotLK, and havent had a good Lock in my raids yet (that and threat is much higher than it used to be), so Im not sure if they changed it since, or something. When I used it in TBC, DPS used to pull right off me before the GCD was up.

Righteous Defence:
Come to the defense of a friendly target, commanding up to 3 enemies attacking the target to attack the Paladin instead.

Martie
12-26-2009, 05:03 PM
Based on what I recall from BC heroics and Kara, and reading the Tooltip, Righteous Defence does not have a fixate, only makes you the Current Aggro Holder (#2 in the OP). I rarely ever use it in WotLK, and havent had a good Lock in my raids yet (that and threat is much higher than it used to be), so Im not sure if they changed it since, or something. When I used it in TBC, DPS used to pull right off me before the GCD was up.

Righteous Defence:
Come to the defense of a friendly target, commanding up to 3 enemies attacking the target to attack the Paladin instead.
I'm pretty sure Righteous Defense has a fixation effect built in these days.

xstratax
12-28-2009, 12:45 PM
I figured as much, I just dont use RD enough to notice anymore I guess

jere
01-03-2010, 01:25 PM
It does have the fixation effect. You can test that by finding someone killing a single mob somewhere, target the mob and use righteous defense. You will see the mob get a debuff for 3 seconds. The debuff represents the fixation effect.

Aggathon
01-04-2010, 02:02 PM
Great post jere. I'm going to link this in my warrior guide if that's okay with you.

jere
01-04-2010, 05:49 PM
Totally fine

GravityDK
01-18-2010, 04:44 PM
I'm wondering, in ICC with some fights like Saurfang and Festergut where a missed taunt has greater consequences, are there any tanks glyphing Taunt now?

Angriff
01-18-2010, 05:36 PM
I glyphed it for our first Putricide kill, and may continue to do so there. As a DK or Paladin it's slightly less important since you have a real backup taunt (rather than fixates like Challenging Shout/Roar and Mocking blow), but I imagine that most Warriors and Bears are glyphing it for a few more fights. Heroic Saurfang might be another where it becomes pretty important though even for DK/Paladin since any extra attacks on the tank after getting the debuff will probably risk killing said tank.

(Of course there's always a chance that both taunts get resisted, but assuming you run with a decent amount of hit gear that chance should be vanishingly small. Assuming 230 hit for alliance, you have 8.77% spell hit + 3 from Misery/Imp FF and +1 from a Draenei you're looking at a 4.23% chance at missing one taunt which means a .18% chance of both taunts missing)

Proletaria
01-18-2010, 06:58 PM
I'm wondering, in ICC with some fights like Saurfang and Festergut where a missed taunt has greater consequences, are there any tanks glyphing Taunt now?

I really hope no dk tanks are silly enough to do that (since DG by design or unintentionally, never misses).

Death-grip = I need this taunt to land. If i miss the raid wipes.

Dark Command is = I might want to help this poor fool who crit conflag on the add as it spawned. Oh darn I missed.

GravityDK
01-18-2010, 07:07 PM
Also is it confirmed Death Grip is a taunt, not fixate? I think it was changed in a patch, but I couldn't google the answer.
It's odd that it never misses, in either case, but that's certainly the way it seems.

Angriff
01-18-2010, 08:58 PM
Death Grip is definitely a real taunt and not just a fixate. I can't say I'd ever realized it was incapable of missing though. I've always used it as my reserve taunt for when Dark Command misses, unless there's the ability or need to actually move the mob with DG.

GravityDK
01-18-2010, 10:17 PM
The death grip yanking bit can be resisted, but the taunt doesn't for some reason. It's odd.
Thanks for confirming it's a proper taunt, I didn't realise that.

Proletaria
01-18-2010, 11:02 PM
Death Grip is definitely a real taunt and not just a fixate. I can't say I'd ever realized it was incapable of missing though. I've always used it as my reserve taunt for when Dark Command misses, unless there's the ability or need to actually move the mob with DG.

To quote the DK who let me in on this secret (who shall go un-named) "ur doin it wrong."

Death-grip should be your primary, use DC when ya can't dg because of cooldown. It is, quite literally, incapable of missing.

GravityDK
02-09-2010, 08:28 PM
I just did some testing, and Death Grip does appear to have a taunt mechanic, however I had a friend report it can miss. This warrant some other people testing.

jere
02-09-2010, 09:29 PM
Yep, deathgrip is indeed a Taunt. You can see that from how it affects the threat table after it happens. I would need to test with my DK to see it's missable status though

Satorri
02-10-2010, 06:08 AM
I've seen it miss, once recently and I have pretty heavy hit rating at the moment. But testing would be more solid data.

This was the only time I've ever seen it miss though which is odd. This may have been a recent switch, or a quirk of its functionality. I suspect it may be incapable of missing on a target that is not immune ot the physical pull effect as that has never failed.

jere
02-10-2010, 06:59 AM
The only problem I'll have with testing it is my DK is too low level. The target dummies are "tapped" so I cant run any tests on it, and I definitely am not high enough to try any raid bosses. Suggestions? Level 65 at the moment. Or if any of you DK's want to do some testing?

GravityDK
02-10-2010, 09:09 PM
I can confirm it can miss its taunt: Splug tried it on a Lich King add. (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=8133.msg114579#msg114579)