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Hardline
06-03-2009, 07:54 AM
I am in a new guild after being a former hardcore raider with the #1 Alliance guild on my server.

Our RL and MT is a DK and he uses this spec: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Fenris&cn=Starfirerose&gn=Probably+Drunk)

I feel that this is not a proper spec for tanking. An example is that on Mimiron he was getting killed within the 1st 10 seconds on the first plasma wave and even 2 priests on him could not keep him up.

I came in and tanked on my warrior and got us to Phase 2 as I was using my CD's and priests wings.

All of the Unholy DK tanks in the guild use this spec. I talked to the priest healers and they both said that overall he is very hard to heal and takes lots of spikey damage.

How do I approach this as I feel his MT'ing is affecting our raiding.

VerticalEvent
06-03-2009, 09:29 AM
It's tricky. I'm always weary about MT as Guild leaders. As a DPS, you can call him out on DPS meters and survivability. A Healing Guild Leader, you can always use Healing charts to suggest a problem.

As a tank, though, he could use any number of excuses - healers won't on the ball, melee won't positioned properly and made him take exra damage / parry hasting.

I can't say how to approach him about it, other then asking his opinion on some other tank specs on Ulduar guilds (Feel free to use mine - Ryudia on Dark Iron). I MTed General Verzaj on 25 man through his enrages.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Dark+Iron&n=Ryudia)

The fact is, he does have a very poor spec. He has Pale Horse, when, as far as I can recall, no bosses stun in Raids. The Ghoul talents do nothing for his threat, as the ghoul have his own agro meter.

No Reaping or Death Rune mastery, suggests difficulty in hold agro, since his heavy hitters are not available on a regular basis (no Scourge Strike or Heart Strike, which means he's using Obliterates).

If he wants to keep his build, he should try this one:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0355001103300300000000000000005000000000000000 0000000000235230301001015033050003100100)

I gives him Scourge Strike as his heavy hitter, and gives him a Cooldown to pop when needed (Bone Shield). Though, if healers are having some problems keeping him up, I would suggest making him Frost specced, for damage reduction.

Stupid question, but he is in Frost Presence when he tanks, correct? He's more then geared so, it seems odd that healers are having problems keeping him so early into teh fight.

Hardline
06-03-2009, 09:36 AM
Yes he is in Frost Presence when he tanks. he just takes some whooping hits.

I totally agree he needs more mitigation talents in his spec. Just need to get him to see the light.

I have an 80 DK much less geared that is frost spec to tank. I think they are using unholy for the AoE / DPS aspect of it.

Thanks for the spec link and advice.

Superspy23
06-03-2009, 09:54 AM
There are 3 ways to rate a tank. All comparisons should be based on you tanking a fight one week and the other tanks the same fight the next week then compare.

1- threat. Compare numbers. Spec can contribute to threat.

2- damage taken. Look at the fight duration and damage taken in WWS or WMO and compare the amount of damage taken per second. Also consider the timely use of cool downs. Spec can contribute.

3- positioning. Hardest to evaluate objectively. Positioning the boss or adds quickly is crucial to raid success. Its possible to blame bad/slow positioning on something else.

Otherwise does this guy ever admit his own mistakes? If he never does then the effort of correcting him may be pointless. I've had the same issue before (MT RL) and it was really hard to get the tank to fix himself. It was worth it though. We still play together and enjoy challenging eachother.

Hardline
06-03-2009, 10:54 AM
1. On threat I am about the same as his for single target. Obviously he has more AoE threat.

2. On damage taken - the other tanks that we use to MT stuff that are pallys and prot warriors seem to take less. I will have to combatlog and then parse it to get a good read on it.

3. Positioning - he positions fine sometimes. I think it is more of a type of strat used than positioning . For example on XT in Ulduar , he likes to tank at the bottom of the stairs , I like to tank at the top of the stairs. On Ignis , I like to put the boss in the water , he does the kiting thing.

He does sometimes admit his mistakes but lets see as I did ask him on our webstie why he uses this spec versus a more traditional spec for tanking.

He did step aside after 4 wipes on Mimiron to let me try it after I PST him about and said that I think I have a better shot due to my CD's versus his spec he has.

I think our healers were carrying his spec a bit in Naxx and that is not going to be the case in Ulduar.

VerticalEvent
06-03-2009, 11:36 AM
That's the problem with Naxx - it was such an easy 25man raid, that alot of people get carried (even in greens), which was expected, since Nax10 and Naxx25 have the same gear requirements - Heroic instances.

Another thing about Ulduar is that I find there's less need for AoE agro. Most trash fights in 25man are Crowd Control fights (Trash leading to Kologarn and in Freya's area comes to mind), that AoE is a bad idea. Besides, in Frost, I have no trouble holding agro on trash pulls - I even sometimes pull them off of the other tanks by accident ^^;

Looking over it again, it reminds me of the Sarth spec I used for OS25 2 Drakes, which is why he might be using it.

Hardline
06-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Problem is that he is the add tank on Sarth and they try to use a warrior for it. I am trying to get them to use a Blood Spec DK tank for Sarth as I have the title on my pally currently.

What would be the advantadge of Frost over Unholy for Ulduar??

VerticalEvent
06-03-2009, 01:11 PM
The difference between an Unholy Tank and a Frost Tank in Ulduar is the same difference between a Unholy Tank and a Frost Tank in any other raid.

Unholy's biggest damage dealers, the Ghoul and the Gargoyle, do not contribute to a tanks agro, as they have their own agro meters, which makes them useless for agro.

I like to compare the two trees (or all three) based primarily on talents that aim to reduce damage in some way.

Blood: 5 (6)
Blade Barrier
Spell Deflection
Veteran of the Third War
Vampiric Blood
Will of Necrosis
(Imp. Rune Tap - doesn't reduce damage, but it does help bring it back. Not a great tanking ability, I think, but some people disagree)

Frost: 7 (6)
Imp. Icy Touch
Toughness
Frigid Dreadplate
Improved Frost Presence
Unbreakable Armor
Acclimation
Guile of Gorefiend (it offers 3 additional seconds to Icebound fortitude, which gives an addtional 3 seconds of cooldowns in effect for every minute)

Unholy: 4 (5)
Anticipation
Ravenous Dead
Magic Suppresion
Bone Shield
(I don't include Anti-Magic Zone simply because you'll be lucky if it can absorb one attack, before disappearing, as well as being on a 2 minute cooldown. If you want to count it, you can)

In all cases, Frost has the most tanking abilities that help reduce damage (though, not many take acclimation) and keep the tank up as long as possible.

Hardline
06-03-2009, 01:24 PM
Awesome. Thanks so much for the detailed explaination!!!!:)

Hardline
06-09-2009, 07:01 AM
Okay here is a link to our parse from last night on XT-002. (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/FMn0NbIVNWlbZKDx/dashboard/?s=7790&e=8405))

We had 6 healers on him hitting him with heals. Does anyone besides me think that 6 healers (2 doing over 300K in heals , 2 doing over 200K in heals and the rest doing over 102K in heals) a bit excessive for this fight ?? Seems that having that many healers makes the fight longer than it needs to be.