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tripp6sic6
06-02-2009, 03:23 PM
I had a debate with a guild member about what was a more effective use of the guild's raid time. I'm of the opinion that, unless we are not downing an encounter because of gear (hitting hard enrages on nearly perfect attempts), more effective use of raid time is on progression encounters learning the fights.

This debate stems from frustration with progression nights full of wipes. Higher stress and higher repair costs don't seem as appealing as the "easy way out" which really doesn't help the problem of just not being proficient at the strats for the encounters.

The debate went in circles without much evidence on either side and, while I don't have the burden of proof in that I control the direction of the guild, I would like an effective way to illustrate my point and give ease of mind to members of the mindset that farming gear will help on progression.

I'm sure this has come up in a lot of guilds. How do you handle this discussion and in what situations is it smart to go back and farm gear?

Lizana
06-02-2009, 03:25 PM
It all depends why you are wipeing... If its just some one isnt grasping the strat, sometimes 10 or even 100 more times will not fix the problem.

Esch
06-02-2009, 04:52 PM
A bit depends on what you're wiping on, IMO. If you're hitting Razorscale/XT-002/Ignis and stalling, that's an indication of something flawed. Identifying low dps/ineffective healers/weak tanks isn't hard between raid observations & WWS style reports. Once you see who's below average, look at gear and decide if it's gear or player. Poor gear means you farm, but if you see good gear with poor results, you need to address the player (role, strat, spec, specific class methods).

On a side note, using enrages as a guide is poor, IMO. My group hit Hordir's enrage several times our first night, but still killed him. Learning the fight took time. I don't suggest reaching the timer, but if you do... you do.

tripp6sic6
06-03-2009, 12:46 PM
It all depends why you are wipeing... If its just some one isnt grasping the strat, sometimes 10 or even 100 more times will not fix the problem.

I'm well aware of that, but it isn't really the discussion this thread was for.


A bit depends on what you're wiping on, IMO. If you're hitting Razorscale/XT-002/Ignis and stalling, that's an indication of something flawed. Identifying low dps/ineffective healers/weak tanks isn't hard between raid observations & WWS style reports. Once you see who's below average, look at gear and decide if it's gear or player. Poor gear means you farm, but if you see good gear with poor results, you need to address the player (role, strat, spec, specific class methods).

I agree. We are wiping on Freya and Thorim. The Thorim wiping was due to a bad strat that we've corrected and haven't had a chance to try him again since correcting it. The Freya wiping is due to a few small strat errors that are causing us to get behind or die. We had an issue of overzealous DPS on the Detonating Lashers, Trees not being killed in time, and Snaplasher getting too many buff stacks and killing tanks. None of these were gear-related.


On a side note, using enrages as a guide is poor, IMO. My group hit Hordir's enrage several times our first night, but still killed him. Learning the fight took time. I don't suggest reaching the timer, but if you do... you do.

Using Enrages as a *SOLE* guide is poor, I would agree. Taking an encounter the full length in order to learn it is not a bad thing and I'm aware of that. What I'm talking about is when we have all done our part on an encounter and there were very few mistakes and we still weren't close, that is definately a gear, play-style or talent problem.

Our officers have looked at the gear of our raiders and everyone is up to par except a few new healers that we've needed to recruit to fill the raids, but are getting pieces of gear on off-nights and are geared enough to take into Ulduar 25. They also are performing very well for their gear level.

Fayre
06-03-2009, 09:45 PM
Learning encounters and wiping on new stuff is a good and effective use of the guild's time. You're going to have to do it at some stage. So using your raid time for that is a good idea.

Up to a point.

When people start getting tired and snippy with each other, when its no longer actually fun to be there, and when the raid's attempts on a boss get progressively worse rather than better, then its not effective at all. That's the moment you need to take a break - and sometimes the moment you need to call it and go 'farm' something to wake everyone up and make them want to come back next week.

I realise this doesn't perhaps address what you were asking in some senses, but I just wanted to point out that sometimes these decisions just have to be made night to night. No amount of time hitting your head against a brick wall is going to be helpful if it's just not working in that particular raid - and you'll put people off coming next time if you're not careful about judging it.

RialÚv
06-04-2009, 12:38 AM
Well, with the release of new content, we do 2 things. We farm only when we feel it is necessary. We do have one 10 man group doing nothing but naxx... this is for the new guys.

The core is devoted solely to Ulduar, and Ulduar only. Those that don't like it, don't go. I have no problem with that.

Muffin Man
06-04-2009, 04:43 PM
Ulduar offers some good opportunities once you get deeper into it.

This week our raid schedule was: FL, XT, Kolo, Auriaya, keepers.

The idea was, when we got tired of wiping on General/Yogg we'll go back and kill an optional boss to get our edge back. If someone was afk/mia we'd go back and 9-man an optional boss.

Feels like a good idea, since the other times when it's just General/Yogg left... somehow people don't log on.

*Keeps fingers crossed for progression kills this week*

(yes we're casual I know)

Yakra
06-05-2009, 08:49 AM
The only time to farm, is if there is no progression left, or you've reached a pre-determined stopping point for progression.

Nothing up to and including Yogg is a serious gear check. 25 People performing at a T8 level can clear non-hardmodes with virtually no T8 gear. I always refer people to the week-one kills - done by people that have/had the same gear options available to them. The difference is simply that they played better.

Now, most people will get to fights in significantly better gear then the week-one deep-ulduar-clearing guilds did, and that makes things easier. But relying on gear to win the fight for you won't cut it. Some fights simply take more then a few pulls to get right, and putting in a few dozen learning attempts is required.

Molohk
06-05-2009, 09:05 AM
You have to consider the morale cost of cancelling a progression night so you can go to Naxx. Frankly, the fact that you can "farm" Naxx pretty much means you're ready to start Ulduar, it might not be smooth and easy, but you can start. And also, if you can "farm" naxx, you're probably better off using a non-raiding night (team up with another guild or pick up a couple of puggers if you need the bodies) to run Naxx for kicks and gear, where people can bring alts if they don't really need any gear on their mains.