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Esch
06-01-2009, 08:47 AM
Maintankitis - the need for a tank to continue as the MT in disregard of performance, strategies and/or encounters. Generally accepted as a holdover from BC era tanking, or logic that warriors are the 'best tank' over other tank classes.

That sums up most of my issue, in that I'm officially a gimmick DK tank. I recognize that I'm superiour in some roles (such as Ignis adds), it's frustrating to continue to get stuck in the OT role when facing farm content or situations where set ups ignore class strengths, such as shield tanks on trash adds (XT-002). The tank officer (warrior) is MT, and there isn't any discussion.

This hit a new 'high' when we looked General Vezaxx for the first time, just to see him & his room, and I asked about which strategy we'ld be using in a tell. I was curious whether the plan was to Kite or have me (Best gear DK) MT. The response was 'We kite!'. I realized then that he was going to MT it, and use the 10 man strategy he'ld employed, even though the strat posted on our website is the Tankspot 'DK tanks through enrage' strat by Lore. I pointed out IBF and was blown off. This made me realize exactly how 'replaceable' I was considered... as I wasn't the "Main Tank". In other words, the strategy was chosen partly for his experience, but also it favors him as the MT. Whether anyone else could do the role was a secondary, if that, consideration.

Of course, I'm welcome to MT Sarth, just to make the encounter trivial. Even money I'll be asked to attend for Vezaxx attempts before we clear Sarth/Malygos in hopes of a few more BiS drops those two have still.

So, how to deal with this? I'm content with the group, but he's a player in both the 10 & 25 teams I'm aquainted with so I can't avoid this issue without leaving entirely. Depending if I'm needed tonight, I'm debating between asking for an offnight, or just put on DPS gear and ignore the issue, but that doesn't solve the frustration.

dirt
06-01-2009, 09:12 AM
I am in a very similar situation as I jumped to my new guild, oh about a month ago now. For me, it's the exact opposite, our MT is a DK or my GM which is a pally. But in fairness to him, he does switch out tanking duties.

My advice is this, for me it's never really been about being in the spotlight or whatever. I'm more of a group/guild success type. But, I admit it is hard to keep your ego in check at times. I guess(atleast for me) you always want to feel like you are contributing to the raids success. In the current raiding in Uldar, I don't see strict roles like MT or OT being so concrete as they use to be. That maybe a bigger guild issue for you. In my case, I realize I'll be picking up adds alot, throwing up sunders and demo shouts. I also went to a DPS off spec, because of the abundance of tanks or some fights only needing 1 or 2. My GM asked me to for the good of progression, so I did it. It can be frustrating, I'm not sure there is an exact answer on what to do. The grass is not always greener as they say, and I've come to find tanking spots at a premium these days.

If you are really struggling with excepting a new role, you could try talking to him and getting this all out in the open. If you can't play like that, another guild would seem to be the option. I'd try and get the off night, hell maybe talk with the warrior and see if he'd switch with you for a night, or trade off nights.

Good luck to you.

Esch
06-01-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm flexible as I can be, IMO. I run Unholy 90% of the time to bump the caster DPS (warlocks love me), and I'm not complaining about something like Auraiya where it's a definite warrior fight. Heck, I can humor the OT roles I get tossed. The line is when it's less about strategies and more about him maintaining this #1 tank role.

Can he tank it? Certainly.
Should he? *Shrug*.
Did he consider other options? No.

That's what's getting to me, badly. :confused:

orcstar
06-01-2009, 10:22 AM
If you need to go over fightmechanics to justify why YOU should be maintanking it you've already lost it.

Mainwannebetankitis - the need for a healer/dps/tank to become MT in disregard of previous efforts off current MT/authority/trust of others in the raid. Generally accepted as a I wannebe the MT but I'm not in a position to force it so I use my either rightly or wrongly assumed little advantages of a class while in reality the current MT can do the role just as good.

Been there and it wasn't even between tanks of different classes. One warriortank was disgruntled he wasn't thrown the MT position often enough. Yup, he could tank, but that was about it. We had 2 other (warrior) tanks at the time but besides they could tank they could analyze, lead and be the charismatic leader of the group. I'd choose any 2 of the to tank any new encounter over the 3rd, even if the guy new when to press which button at the right moment.
This guy had the same issues you have, and he wasn't even enother class.
But fact is: we were in SSC and kara's were free: I on my restoshaman was dragging the group through. Not him, even while he was tanking. This wrongly lead to trust issues in his abilities by other raiders but still.

It hardly ever works to argue your position to MT a boss if you're not on equal footage, if he's calling the shots and you're not: you'll have a rough time.
Our current DK tank is an excellent tank. But on one thing I kept pushing him from the start when we first entered Nax: "speak up speak up speak up". We started Nax and I Maintanked almost everything first time because I never hesitated to jump to the spot. In Ulduar things are different": our DK is much more up there, he's talks more and what he tells is right and people are used to listening to him now......and he never hesitates.

Esch
06-01-2009, 12:23 PM
If you need to go over fightmechanics to justify why YOU should be maintanking it you've already lost it.

If strategies are based on the player, not abilities, I have concerns what is dictating the role I'm filling. I'm looking for suggestions, and I'm dissappointed you fail to recognize a desire for discussion. I have chosen to limit my discussion to the logic/topic & try to avoid a whiney rant. Please respect that, else your opinion won't be heard over your QQ.

You're also assuming I want to MT 'every' fight. I don't expect or demand that role. I know that on several fights I'm better serving as an OT, or even 'bad' dps.


It hardly ever works to argue your position to MT a boss if you're not on equal footage, if he's calling the shots and you're not: you'll have a rough time.

That's also called control. He doesn't have to surrender his spot unless he chooses to, or in the one case I've 'bumped' him, he was overruled by the raidleader at the request of the healers. I know where I stand when he's down, when (again) the raid leader has me step up to MT. I'ld like to get to start a fight in that role, instead of flipping presence, taunting, & hoping the healers keep up. Especially on fights where I have the advantage to a degree that it's not minor, but decisively obvious when compared without bias.

Astemus
06-01-2009, 12:47 PM
This topic comes up alot time to time, it's not anything new with ulduar. When my guild first started in Naxx, we had some problems getting tanks, the GM and myself were the only tanks, and most of the first kills I would MT because my gear was better. He eventually went holy when we got a stable tank to fill in, a DK, but I was still MT simply because it was farm at that point and people wanted to clear as fast as possible. I began thinking that I might be guilty of this disease, so I started swapping him in for the easier fights and eventually i stepped down and let him MT all the fights simply to give him more experience.

Well, I still remember the first time I told him to MT a boss, he was pretty excited. And then when I switched to OT and let him MT full time, he was having a blast. So I can see why this becomes a problem, because I was in that position.

One thing I'd suggest, as other have, is to talk to the MT and tell him your problems. Or talk to another officer about it. It may be he is simply stepping up to help speed along kills. From how you describe it, i kind of doubt it, but it's an important first step. If that doesn't solve your problem, I don't think anything will, and if you're still unhappy, quit. If they really value you, they may ask you to come back and finally listen, or they won't and you can look elsewhere.

However, keep in mind what dirt said, tanking spots are at a premium. With so many tanks floating around, and so few tanking positions in raids, you may find it hard to relocate. But if you don't enjoy your position now, it may be better to be looking than be benched.

Astemus
06-01-2009, 12:52 PM
Also, there may be another reason why you're always OT. The raid may have misgivings about your skill or gear. This is another reason to approach them and ask. There really isn't any reason you shouldn't be allowed to MT. Except maybe they're concerned that a warrior OT is like a DPS dead weight and a DK can still produce the same damage whether they're MT or OT.

trl
06-02-2009, 08:47 AM
Heres my take on what i have read. 1st to be the MT you need to be more vocal and take charge, but also u need to be humble enough to listen to those that have did this before. I have 2 great guys that are on my raid team that are letting me fall flat on my face as a learn to tank on the fly style for MTing. Its not the charisma or the lack of Being Vocal that makes the great MT its the fact that know one knows every raid fight perfect. I have noticed in my few raids so far that there is only 2 things that are standards 1. Iron Forge is always Defended and 2. you are only a great MT if your group trusts you. i have learned more reading the posts about what not to do then actual what to do.

CyriliusTheDefender
06-02-2009, 10:57 AM
This happened at my previous guild. I suspect this happens a lot when the GM and the MT are the same person. They will always be the "default" MT tank and the burden of persuasion is on you to argue why he shouldn't be. Expect him to be backed up by the guild leadership, who are likely his friends. If, like me, you're a prot warrior, it's a difficult argument to make these days considering the sorry state of warrior tanks at the moment.

I confronted my prior GM about this once and got a lot of mumbles. I left the guild for a larger one with more tanks and more raids and have been much happier.

Ciderhelm
06-02-2009, 11:02 AM
TankSpot's strategy is not "DK tanks it through surges," it's "DK/Druid/Warrior tanks it through surges." All three classes can easily go through each surge on their own cooldowns. The issue you had was one of strategy, not of class choice, because class choice does not prevent being stationary.

cen1
06-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Heres my take on what i have read. 1st to be the MT you need to be more vocal and take charge, but also u need to be humble enough to listen to those that have did this before. I have learned more reading the posts about what not to do then actual what to do.

This has been my experience for the most part. In my raids I am usually the one tanking bosses, but I am not the raid leader, or the guild leader. I am usually the main tank because the healers put their faith in me, and I am told habitually that I am easier to heal than the others (druid/pally/dk).
Not to boost my own ego but I am skilled at my class and I know what needs to be done as a tank...
That being said, I am usually not vocal, I don't run the raid and so my input is usually observations or to the tank team... (taunt alert, debuff count, etc.)

I think the key to winning the MT position, is winning the hearts of your healers. It's like being a tour guide of a dangerous jungle tour. If you convince your group that you know the jungle and are the best guide for the tour, they will follow you, even if it costs some extra mana.

Esch
06-02-2009, 12:37 PM
TankSpot's strategy is not "DK tanks it through surges," it's "DK/Druid/Warrior tanks it through surges." All three classes can easily go through each surge on their own cooldowns. The issue you had was one of strategy, not of class choice, because class choice does not prevent being stationary.

You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

cen1
06-02-2009, 12:39 PM
That's nothing more than the stubborness of your RL/MT. I'd think that if you have enough of the raid telling him there's a better solution, perhaps he'd see the light. That's hard to get around though, his pride and arrogance is only stunting your progression.

Petninja
06-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Sorry, I don't see what's wrong with letting someone the guild trusts tank the boss. It sounds like your guild likes the old MT/OT formula, which is fine if it works. It doesn't make your role any less important.

I don't see what's wrong with a little kiting either. "Tank through enrage" to me sounds a lot like "headbutt through encounter". Kiting would have been the preferred method in any previous incarnation of the game but Bliz gave us thicker skulls for Wrath. If it's a viable strat why would you dismiss kiting as viable? If he's an old world warrior tank he's probably got a skill set that much of the newer tanking community may lack, which is kiting.

Risky
06-02-2009, 01:26 PM
You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

I'm confused about a couple things. I've seen this whole hierarchy of MT/OT break down pretty easily. A short-backstory. I'm a no name tank reroll that hit 70 the day Wotlk went live. I happened to app at the right time to one of the top raiding guilds on our server, and within a month landed the position of "MT". They had other tanks, but they liked me, my dedication, experience, and willingness to lead and help.
Fights with multiple tanks- IE; Yogg, Ignis, Iron Council, etc.
I may be the MT, but I handle adds on Ignis, because we don't have a tank DK on most the time for our tuesday run, and in my opinion, a monkey could tank Ignis, but the adds involve more movement and talent. You may think you're getting the OT position here, but personally I see it as the most important position in the fight. I hope you get my point in relation to the rest of these bosses.
Tank Drama
Tanks should be the complete opposite of drama. It sounds like you have more problems with the leadership provided by your MT, which is fine, because I'm like him. We do General with a warr kiting also, and it works perfectly. DK stationary tanking has been and will continue to get nerfed, and several guilds decided to do the fight as intended from the get-go. My DK wanted to tank- I said no. It wasn't my decision so much as an officer decision.
In conclusion, the best way to avoid drama is to not provide it in the first place. Your healers should ultimately decide who should tank what, but no one is going to learn anything without failure first-hand.

Molohk
06-02-2009, 01:36 PM
I know it's a tough situation, every guild has it's own structure. Some are more flexible when it comes to roles while some others can be very inflexible about that sort of stuff, both systems can work fine, there's really no right or wrong here. All the encounters in Ulduar can be tanked by all the tanking classes, so it's more an issue of you wanting to tank than an issue of class choice. If you're not comfortable with the way your raid is set up, you should talk it over with the guild leadership and see if you can change things to where you feel more comfortable, if you can't change things and you're still not happy, you can always try to find another guild that suits your better.

This is not an issue of kiting vs stationary, it's obvious that a stationary strategy allows for more optimum raid performance for many guilds, but you don't need a DK to be stationary, and any strat can work. This is an issue of being given the chance to play the role you want to play, and it should be dealth with as such.

Muffin Man
06-02-2009, 01:57 PM
You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

Problem is, you keep throwing out mechanics reason/scenarios to say why you should be MT-ing and people here will shoot you down because that's not how MTs get chosen. There are no mechanic reasons why anyone should be the MT assuming you guys are both equally geared.

Your issue is a people issue, and we don't know the dynamics of your raid/guild to really help you. A few months ago we had a tank come here and rip his guild for not letting him MT anything even though he had the best gear (some users pointed out his gemming/enchanting/spec choices were questionable even though he *did* have good gear). A few of his guildies showed up and started ripping that guy a new one and the thread got closed. There were obvious guild issues for why he wasn't tanking more and it's really hard for anyone on the outside to give you any advice.

IMO, Orcstar isn't flaming you or qq-ing but turning the question around for another perspective on the issue; albeit harshly. But really, this is a people problem and rarely is one person 100% wrong and one 100% right (although if this *is* one of those cases you are best served finding a new guild).

minrog
06-02-2009, 11:44 PM
He might be having the other tanks DPS on a lot of the fights because he is terrible at DPS. I had a DK tank for a while (I miss him :() who not only could tank anything I threw at him but also cranked out 6k dps when the other guys were only doing 4k or so. My DPS was middle of the pack so he didn't end up tanking an awful lot. Maybe it was a disservice to him, but our raids are rocky enough that I had to use every asset I could to kill the bosses in Naxx.

If a Prot Warrior isn't tanking the fight they are worthless dead weight (1k DPS in tank gear or something). Since we have managed to recruit a second Prot Warrior (who reads Tankspot!! heh) I've been leveling up a Druid so I can OT/DPS after my tanking duties are over and possibly step in as ranged DPS for other encounters.

As for the personality things you mentioned it sounds like he doesn't trust you. It could be ego but it could also be he doesn't want the raid to get used to you because he thinks you might leave or something. As mentioned above we can't analyze that aspect without further information.

Shortypop
06-03-2009, 12:05 AM
Without knowing this may be a case of lack of communication, have you ever spoken directly to him outside of raids and asked to MT a couple of bosses each week? What do the other OTs feel?

Gestar
06-03-2009, 01:17 AM
I agree with what others have said in that you should probably speak to the "MT". If there are no gear/skill disparities then by all-rights you should be able to main-tank a boss from time to time during a run. If you can't come to some type of an agreement then look for a better place.

You sound a bit shock by what you are experiencing. There are many tanks out there who want to be "the man" with tons of ego to go with it. If you do decide to move on I would suggest you query guilds about there existing tank base, needs and how they run things before joining. I for one don't believe in the idea of a "MT" for a raid. In 10 or 25 mans I make sure the other tanks and I rotate fights. This ensures that each of the tanks rotate responsibilities and is best in the long run for any guild and/or raid.

What happens to your current runs if this "MT" get sick, goes on vacation or quits? Do the runs just get cancelled?

Stephanius
06-03-2009, 03:53 AM
Even with your view of the situation provided in detail it is quite impossible to pinpoint the problem not to mention come up with a solution.
I will therefore just add my two cents, knowing that I can be off the mark considerably.

If I understand correctly you are disagreeing with tank assignments and the MT/tank leader's actions and feel that you would be doing a better job for reasons that are obvious to you and based on class or reading strategies.

Take a step back and consider if you could be part of the problem in the way that your tank team leader sees you - not your class/character - quite differently from how you see yourself. For example, how much tank experience do you have? How nimble are you on your feet? How do you react to unforseen things? Is your spatial awareness sufficient? Is your communication ok? How do the other tanks measure up in these points?

All of these things should be more important than the class the tank plays, with the possible exception of gimmick fights.

trl
06-04-2009, 06:43 AM
personally now that i have done a few runs. I say cope if you can take what they want to do improve and make voiced you want to be a leader then do it. if not then let someone who can lead lead. If your guild still is playing politics with who the MT is and that then well either play politics or get out. Friends or not politics have no place in raid spoils

shez
06-10-2009, 10:20 AM
I think you should let your MT or officers know that you want to tank.

I had a similar thing happen a few weeks ago, our DK OT left the guild because we didn't let him MT stuff that he thinks would be super easy with a DK tank aka general. He had let us know what he was thinking, and not happy being put in a roll to dps (he has the highest dps out of all OTs, which makes it a natural choice to get him to change to dps spec for that fight dps), he is not very happy that he is always asked to respec dps first out of all the other tanks (e.g. at yogg we only need 3 tanks)

He left with a comments: good luck with progression without a DK tank.
(he's a trial and we had a few dks who can respec tank if needed, so not much of a loss)

If he talked to me, I'd have let him tank and get another tank to dps. But generally, my guild prefer me to tank because I'm slightly better geared and a better player. A few times i asked our healers whether they want to swap tank and try, but they didn't want to.

If you want to MT an encounter, talk to your MT/raid leader. I don't think there's any encounters a certain type of tank will considerably out perform a warrior tank. So your reason can't be becuase you're a DK tank so you should tank it, unless its fights like sartharion with 3 drakes and a non dk tank will get 1 shot.

For some fights, a warrior is clearly better to OT, then i will go OT. I also understand that it is boring to be OT everyweek, so i had my OT's MT in farm content, and let them take turn dps.

I would be extremely upset if someone not let me tank something becuase i'm a warrior. If you think you should be tanking becuase youre a better player than your MT then its perfectly fine, if you just want to tank it its also fine.

I don't know your MT history in your guild, but its very likely that the core raiders will prefer your MT to tank even though you're slightly better for certain encounters. MT is MT for a reason.

p.s. A warrior can also tank through surges without any external cd.

GravityDK
06-12-2009, 04:49 AM
What happens to your current runs if this "MT" get sick, goes on vacation or quits? Do the runs just get cancelled?

Good point to raise. Tank corps and variation of duties here.
DK tanks have a lot of advantages on Vezax (I can't wait to see him myself), but like Cider said, it's possible for other tanks to do it too with good use of CDs.

But if a DK can make it easier, why not let you try? Your guild seems to take an anti-progression mindset. Perhaps there's more to their resistance, like earlier posters here suggested.

Salloman
06-12-2009, 11:34 AM
Lets take the Main out of it and Just consider Tankitis....

Come on, anyone who has done any amount of raid tanking has had it at some point. I know I have... Shove everyone aside and let them revel in my brilliance! Whats funny is we all have it. It sounds like your MT has it and you have it.

Damn... the other day i was in Naxx 10, jumped on my good 'ol prot warrior. Took him for a spin! It was an alt group but we all knew the fights... smoothest run we had in weeks. Previous tanks were also alts, so they were dps/healers learing to tank, so naturally they made mistakes. I must say it felt good... keeping us alive as a weak OT learned from the master... lol. Tankitis sank in, and we wiped twice on instructor because I didnt fix my UI to dismiss and forgot about the summoning stones limited range. Reality check, we playing this game the best we can, we all f*&% up! We learn from exposure to a role. Making mistakes and learning from them. Regardless how much tankspot we read or well we know our class, we need exposure to the role to be good at it.

I would suggest discourage MT/OT tags. Rotate your MTs, everyone will benefit from it, even your MT! Besides, the best tank in the world aint gonna help you any if they dont get healed and the dps doesnt down him in within the enrage timer. Raids are really a group effort, thats why they are so much fun and hard at the same time.

Dhalphir
06-12-2009, 06:55 PM
Simple solution.

If your guild is able to kill Vezax using this warrior tanking the way he wants to, let him do it. He's the one with the stressful job. If they're wiping due to kiting issues (like him not getting far enough away, fucking up the kite, etc etc), quietly point out to the other raid leaders the advantages of you tanking it.

Nidhoggr
06-12-2009, 07:05 PM
Come on, anyone who has done any amount of raid tanking has had it at some point. I know I have... Shove everyone aside and let them revel in my brilliance! Whats funny is we all have it. It sounds like your MT has it and you have it.

Back in BC I tanked as a Paladin. Primordial, I played on a very small server and I was one of the very first (if not THE first) Tankadin on Hordesite. At least, I was the very first really ambitious one in one of the bigger guilds.

I always had issues to persuade people in the first place that a pally is able to tank. This started back in 5 man instances and kept going in raid instances. So I always have to fight for my right to maintank, fight against the other tanks in our raid, fight against dumbass randoms who couldn't believe a pally is a good tank. Even in front of Gorefiend, the raidleader of another guild started whispering me that a tankadin won't be able to tank him, because of crushing immunity - which was, of course, just dullness, and because of the fact, that he was the brother of our warrior-tank.

These days, I was just like the tanks mentioned here in the thread, even more when I started raidleading in our guild. I wanted to tank everything and everyone, because I know what I could handle and I wanted to show the others that I am the man in charge. Always showing that I am the alpha male and never show any weakness, because I have fought for to long to earn the proper respect - and I earned it for sure, every Karazhan/ZA-Raid was glad having me tanking for them, strangers started to ask me questions about class mechanics and so on.

But now in WOTLK - I now tank with my warrior again, but still being raidleader - this has changed. People know what I'm able to do and I have no problem to take a step back, letting other ones mt a boss. I handle adds or switching to dps spec.

So I think Maintakitis - or as I call it: Raidleader Syndrom, because it's not just that you want to tank everything, but you always need to be the leader, even in 5 man - really is an issue of tanks. It's hard letting other ones do the job, if you used to have a steady hand on the tiller. I actually hijacked random raids when I had the feeling the leader doen't really know how to keep the raid on track. In less then 10 Minutes I was the one who was in charge, even if I was the last one invited to the raid.

But after a (long) while you learn that it's not personal when you're not leading or maintanking a boss and that you won't lose your status just because you give other people a chance. Then you can just sit back and relaxe, and even having a good time while another poor bligther is the one who have to handle 25 single persons with at least 15 different raid-attitudes :>

Esch
06-15-2009, 09:28 AM
Simple solution.

If your guild is able to kill Vezax using this warrior tanking the way he wants to, let him do it. He's the one with the stressful job. If they're wiping due to kiting issues (like him not getting far enough away, fucking up the kite, etc etc), quietly point out to the other raid leaders the advantages of you tanking it.

A bit of reply & follow-up for folks:

It turned out that the smaller, 10 man push team has played with Vezax using kiting, DK tanking an Warrior tanking, and succeeded using all those variations. The MT warrior's decision is to throw me at Vezax-25 at this point. I'm feeling that since he's seen how it all variations work and is going with the nonkiting strategy at this point.

Also, we're getting some rotation into the mix, though it tends to be on farm bosses. Some of the keepers do give us significant grief and we're focused on eeking out kills rather than making sure all the tanks are at 100%. Offhand, I think myself and another OT are both geared/skilled to cover for absences. It rough on the first few attempts, but we've managed to keep repeating our kills.

Wish me luck, I'm hoping for a night with Vezax.

Ramnath
06-18-2009, 06:24 AM
A bit of reply & follow-up for folks:

It turned out that the smaller, 10 man push team has played with Vezax using kiting, DK tanking an Warrior tanking, and succeeded using all those variations. The MT warrior's decision is to throw me at Vezax-25 at this point. I'm feeling that since he's seen how it all variations work and is going with the nonkiting strategy at this point.

Also, we're getting some rotation into the mix, though it tends to be on farm bosses. Some of the keepers do give us significant grief and we're focused on eeking out kills rather than making sure all the tanks are at 100%. Offhand, I think myself and another OT are both geared/skilled to cover for absences. It rough on the first few attempts, but we've managed to keep repeating our kills.

Wish me luck, I'm hoping for a night with Vezax.

I'm glad this seems to have worked out for you. I'm in a similar situation. The present GM of our guild is also the MT. Which to me isn't the problem. The problem is that he is by far the worst tank in the guild and has stifled progression many occasions dating back to BC. I have since quit going to our 25 mans and I only focus on the 10s because the group is better.

I consistently hear guild chat complaints about how he cannot generate threat. The one 25 man I went to he generate a paltry 3k threat on Patch. I don't think by any means that I am the best tank in the world, although I've been raid tanking since MC and my warrior is my only 80 that I rolled in '04, so experience is on my side.

I've taken it upon myself to send him a PM on our forums discussing why I felt his threat was bad and how he could correct it. I got the standard politically correct answer of, I'm going to stick with what I've got. 2 months later nothing has changed.

The people in my guild are really good people and are being held back by the lack of ability that a few players are displaying. Those players just happen to be 4 of 7 guild officers, including the GM. I understand I am thread leeching here. Does anyone have any experience with this and how to navigate these waters aside from publicly telling them that they are bad?

shez
06-18-2009, 07:12 AM
I'm glad this seems to have worked out for you. I'm in a similar situation. The present GM of our guild is also the MT. Which to me isn't the problem. The problem is that he is by far the worst tank in the guild and has stifled progression many occasions dating back to BC. I have since quit going to our 25 mans and I only focus on the 10s because the group is better.

I consistently hear guild chat complaints about how he cannot generate threat. The one 25 man I went to he generate a paltry 3k threat on Patch. I don't think by any means that I am the best tank in the world, although I've been raid tanking since MC and my warrior is my only 80 that I rolled in '04, so experience is on my side.

I've taken it upon myself to send him a PM on our forums discussing why I felt his threat was bad and how he could correct it. I got the standard politically correct answer of, I'm going to stick with what I've got. 2 months later nothing has changed.

The people in my guild are really good people and are being held back by the lack of ability that a few players are displaying. Those players just happen to be 4 of 7 guild officers, including the GM. I understand I am thread leeching here. Does anyone have any experience with this and how to navigate these waters aside from publicly telling them that they are bad?

hmm i wonder why good players are still staying in the guild. We're lucky that officers are actually good and chosen to be officers cos they are good.

guess if you've talked to your gm and nothing has changed after 2 months, there isn't much you can do...

Esch
06-18-2009, 11:50 AM
hmm i wonder why good players are still staying in the guild. We're lucky that officers are actually good and chosen to be officers cos they are good.

guess if you've talked to your gm and nothing has changed after 2 months, there isn't much you can do...

Guild relations often extend beyond raiding, which is part of why I've stuck around my group even though I've continued to be defaulted to OT roles (though, most of the time, it's a moot point). No one wants to leave a group they're comfortable with, even if raiding is lackluster.

The problem, from my experience, is officers get comfortable with their positions/group, and miss membership input. Odds are, the officers are content with the GMs leadership and this tanking skills aren't a high concern. For raiders, especially DPS and/or folks wanting progression, the inverse is true.

My thought? Look at moving on, either to 10s only, building the 10 into a 25 group or going to another/new 25 group. The frustration level is only going to build if it stalls/stops progress. As for showing it 'politely', it's hard. If someone isn't open to advice, getting them to recognize your concern (valid or not) is difficult without insulting them... and that assumes they'll not just be insulted anyways by implying their 1337 skills are inadequate.

Ramnath
06-19-2009, 12:09 AM
Guild relations often extend beyond raiding, which is part of why I've stuck around my group even though I've continued to be defaulted to OT roles (though, most of the time, it's a moot point). No one wants to leave a group they're comfortable with, even if raiding is lackluster.


This is exactly what's happening.



The problem, from my experience, is officers get comfortable with their positions/group, and miss membership input. Odds are, the officers are content with the GMs leadership and this tanking skills aren't a high concern. For raiders, especially DPS and/or folks wanting progression, the inverse is true.


The same with that.



My thought? Look at moving on, either to 10s only, building the 10 into a 25 group or going to another/new 25 group. The frustration level is only going to build if it stalls/stops progress. As for showing it 'politely', it's hard. If someone isn't open to advice, getting them to recognize your concern (valid or not) is difficult without insulting them... and that assumes they'll not just be insulted anyways by implying their 1337 skills are inadequate.

Myself and four RL friends just started new guild discussions today. We all have guild and raid leading experience dating back to Vanilla and into BC. We joined this guild to not have that responsibility. There is so much talent in my guild and it pains me to see a good guild struggle needlessly.

Krehinth
07-01-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm currently a officer tank in my guild. I don't like the tags MT/OT, if a tank would be considerable better at a role in a fight then I have him/her do it, otherwise whoever wants to 'MT' I'll let them. I'd rather keep my tanks happy (Even though I do enjoy 'MTing' myself) then MT all the fights.

If u r still having any trouble with your GM/MT then I say talk to him, if he doesnt consider any changes then I would not like to be in that guild.

slackhoid
07-02-2009, 03:37 AM
Myself and four RL friends just started new guild discussions today. We all have guild and raid leading experience dating back to Vanilla and into BC. We joined this guild to not have that responsibility. There is so much talent in my guild and it pains me to see a good guild struggle needlessly.
We started a 10-man only guild with some of my buddies (very experienced raiders starting from Vanilla) to raid Ulduar and are having great time so far. As 10-man only the organizational duties are not nearly as time-consuming as in bigger guilds; I'm GM and RL and I do not find this much work at all. With the new 10-man hard modes there is a lot of challenges (we're now at Vezax in Ulduar10, killed Mimiron with some pugged ppl last reset) left and in 10-man raiding everyone's effort has bigger role.

We're running this as very small team, only around 12 active players, but with dual-specs and skilled ppl we have made steady progress while not having nowhere nearly optimal raid composition. I'd recommend 10-man only guild for anyone too tired of all the mess and extra work big 25-man guilds/raids create.

As for OT/MT stuff; to me that classification is ancient history. We have DK (me) and Pally tanks and we switch roles for each encounter to get best abilities for task at hand; I tank/heat Ignis adds with my CDs/CoI/DG, snare/kill bomb bots in Mimiron stage 3. The pally also tanks most single-tank fights (except Hodir and Vezax as my CDs are so powerful there) because my DPS off-spec is considerably more DPS than his. Works perfectly for us and helps progress. To my experience most ppl insisting "I'm the de facto MT" are just using that line trying to justify hogging all the tank loot to themselves.

twoswords
07-07-2009, 11:36 PM
Maintankitis - "Text".

A suggestion would be to bring this issue up with the guy who is currently MT while not during a raid. Bring to light your wish to tank as well as (possible) others as well. Show him what your strenghts and weaknesses are as well as what the other tank classes can bring to the table.

If he/she agrees to this then you have the start for a constructive discussion where you slowly talk the present MT into understanding that the days of a specific MT is over. Instead it is better to work as a team and allowing all tanks to try out the different roles of MT/OT/pickup tank etc to make sure that everyone is ready to handle the role.

Once they understand this and works with it, you got a stronger, faster and better tank team. If they flat out refuse to consider it, discuss your future role with them and either accept a new position or leave the guild/raid group. Do not stay as the "extra tank only when needed" or you will never be regarded as more than just that.