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Farothin
05-30-2009, 09:54 PM
I have been watching the various discussions on tanking weapon enchants with a degree of distance. However I managed to pick up the nose sword from from 10 person Kolo tonight and suddenly I have a weapon I feel is worth putting something expensive on but I can't seem to find any actual consensus or even much hard data on the tanking enchants.

Mongoose and 26Agi I can work out for myself as being avoidance and a bit of threat either in burst form (mongoose) or more steady (agi).

Correct me if I'm wrong but Blade Ward looks to take some of the randomness out of parry by raising the chance to get one steadily until you get a parry.
My specific question is: On average, how much avoidance is being gained?

Blood Draining is an on demand heal for when you need it however the specific numbers involved look minuscule compared to typical incoming damage which makes me feel like it belongs in the same basket as Battlemaster; namely neat idea but the numbers just aren't enough to be worth it.

I'm not interested in accuracy as when I have issues with threat those 50 points aren't going to make a difference and I'd rather concentrate on my survival.

While I'd not want to exclude any class specific information from the thread (I can't be the only person feeling lost on this subject) I myself am a warrior tank.

Dhalphir
05-30-2009, 09:59 PM
You have the essence of Blade Warding down, but its proc rate is a little too low to be reliable, so really its just a small benefit. Same with Blood Draining.

Mongoose and 26 agi are both decent options, but the mitigation/survival options you get from them are mediocre at best.

I know you said you don't want Accuracy, but, point for point, you get the most bang for your buck from that single enchant, and its better to enchant the threat and use the points saved to gear for survival elsewhere.

ItZMuRdA
05-31-2009, 01:58 PM
I'd recommend Blood Draining for progression main-tanking, it's definitely the EH enchant, even if it seems underwhelming in your head before you try it out.

Furthermore, I'd recommend Mongoose for avoidance (I prefer how the numbers from the procs over time equal out instead of the 26 static agility choice). Blade Ward is the other option here, and I've been trying it out myself, but honestly I don't think it's worth it. If you want an avoidance enchant with some other small perks, Mongoose wins out over agi and blade ward imho.

Lastly, I know you mentioned not needing/wanting Accuracy, and I tend to agree myself too most of the time with my current gear situation, but it's certainly the superior option in regard to threat, so I'd suggest that as the third feasible option.

Hope it helps.. I've been pondering all of this stuff myself as well for quite a long time, too.

Lizana
05-31-2009, 03:16 PM
Two nights ago tanking Heroic x002 Blood Draining saved my life twice in one fight. That right there makes it my enchant of choice for progression tanking. Its not supposed to save you by itself, but it + your healers + the rest of your gear = increased chance of living than just your healers and gear by themselves.

Mookey
06-01-2009, 06:48 AM
Yesterday, General Vezax first kill.

Blood Reserve (heal proc from Blood Drain)
Procced 7 times
Avg: 1663
Max: 2292

Look it this way:
Permanently enchant your weapon to give you 150-200 stamina. Would you take it?

However it is:
Permanently enchant your weapon to give you 150-200 stamina when you need it the most.

It's amazing enchant... it's not doing anything at all until you really need it... and you might be disappointed but it's best EH enchant atm in game.

swelt
06-01-2009, 07:43 AM
I'm really liking blood draining as an EH enchant. What I'm struggling with is a threat enchant for a secondary weapon. I used to have accuracy (and before that a weapon chain) but I am dripping in +hit gear now.

Superior potency is a bit lackluster as it's AP rather than Str. 20 str from the TBC enchant isn't very exciting. Berserking would be nice apart from the 5% armor reduction. Icebreaker (fiery weapon v2.0) got buffed to 185 to 215 fire damage per proc, was regarded as garbage before that. Exceptional (26) Agility is about .4% crit (woo hoo). All a bit 'meh'.

ItZMuRdA
06-01-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm really liking blood draining as an EH enchant. What I'm struggling with is a threat enchant for a secondary weapon. I used to have accuracy (and before that a weapon chain) but I am dripping in +hit gear now.

Superior potency is a bit lackluster as it's AP rather than Str. 20 str from the TBC enchant isn't very exciting. Berserking would be nice apart from the 5% armor reduction. Icebreaker (fiery weapon v2.0) got buffed to 185 to 215 fire damage per proc, was regarded as garbage before that. Exceptional (26) Agility is about .4% crit (woo hoo). All a bit 'meh'.

Accuracy still wins out in the threat department. You're bound to have less hit on gear eventually, or maybe even can swap some pieces if you're using an Accuracy enchant at the time. Keep in mind, it gives 25 crit rating also, which is often overlooked. I do agree with you, however, and I often have plenty enough of hit rating on my current gear. On top of that, though, I find myself just simply not using a "threat" weapon per se atm for some other reasons, one being that I just find a higher DPS weapon (like Sorthalis > Shiver/Titanguard > Last Laugh > 10-man Ulduar weapons, etc.) being sufficient for threat rather than switching to a lower DPS weapon just because I have an Accuracy enchant on it. On top of that, I have the +5 expertise dwarf racial, so Sorthalis and Shiver really blow the rest out of the water for me, regardless of the enchant on any given one. That being said, atm I'm just using Blood Draining and Mongoose, and I was experimenting with Blade Ward for a bit (although I'm not that impressed).

Brucimus
06-01-2009, 10:44 AM
Doesnt appear that their is a consensus. Which i think is great! Are you tired of people running around in the same gear/enchants?

marklar
06-01-2009, 12:45 PM
It's amazing enchant... it's not doing anything at all until you really need it... and you might be disappointed but it's best EH enchant atm in game.

this.

Odok
06-01-2009, 03:19 PM
I took the time to test out all three first-hand.

Mongoose has become fairly lackluster. At level 80 it's a little over 1% dodge from the agility. I wouldn't choose it over Blood Draining or Blade Ward, personally.

Blade Ward is an awesome enchant... if it would proc more than once in a millennium. It gives you about 4% parry at a base 18% parry rating, and a nice boost to threat on the next parry. It can also stack. The problem is it has such a low proc rate that it becomes next to useless. Most of the time I see the buff fall off before I even get a parry. The devs really do have some sort of vendetta against parrying.

Blood Draining, as most have pointed out, is the most useful that I've seen. It procs a lot and is easy to stack, especially for a prot warrior. At first it might not seem that terribly useful. If you're already down to 35% health, you might think that a 2k health (aka health potion) won't be enough to save you from the next melee hit. You also might think that you shouldn't be dropping so low so often in the first place. But it really is the best after you look at the data. I think it's best to think of it in terms the previous posters have been giving: it's more like a +stamina enchant, or a mini last stand, that fires off when you need it the most.

Dhalphir
06-01-2009, 03:46 PM
The only time you should ever go below 35% HP is on a boss that hits for 60-70% of your HP pool with one swing, in which case a 2k heal isn't going to save you.

On any other boss, if you're dropping below 35% HP, something is wrong with your healers.

marklar
06-01-2009, 06:14 PM
The only time you should ever go below 35% HP is on a boss that hits for 60-70% of your HP pool with one swing, in which case a 2k heal isn't going to save you.

On any other boss, if you're dropping below 35% HP, something is wrong with your healers.

if you follow this logic, stacking stamina is pretty pointless too.

Dhalphir
06-01-2009, 07:54 PM
if you follow this logic, stacking stamina is pretty pointless too.

Stamina is a pool that can be filled up. Healing is water that fills the pool. They are not the same thing.

If you are at 20k HP, and take a 19k melee hit, left on 1k. Blood Reserve heals you for 2k hp, then a holy paladin lands a Holy Light bomb on you for 19k, or more, overhealing for 2k+.

My situation: I'm at 20k hp. I take a 19k melee hit. I don't have Blood Reserve. Holy paladin lands that heal, end result is the same, except I didn't get 2k overhealing from a near worthless enchant.

Now, obviously the holy paladin's heal is not guaranteed to crit. But he's also not the only healer healing you. I guarantee that in 95% of the situations where you drop below 35% HP, that 2k blood reserve heal will simply increase the amount of overhealing on your next healers heal. Sure, on the Recount charts it will show up as effective healing, but if it hadn't happened, the net result would be the same.

Then there might be 4% of cases where the heal isn't overhealing, and counts as effective healing, but fails to save you anyway, because its such a tiny insignificant heal.

And then 1% of cases where it does save you.

I would rather enchant something like Accuracy, that gives me some solid stats I can look at, see, and gear around.

Dragaan
06-01-2009, 10:31 PM
I guarantee that in 95% of the situations where you drop below 35% HP, that 2k blood reserve heal will simply increase the amount of overhealing on your next healers heal.

I went over the logs for a past run trying to find evidence of this. I could not find a single case where this was true. 99% of the time, it's my blood reserve healing me instantly plus quite a few mini-heals from hots/rets and sometimes a pre-casted aoe heal before the next major heal lands. This all happens in a very short amount of time, and the small heal provided by blood reserve is a nice addition to those multiple small heals that land before the next large heal. The enchant is better than you might think. It's the best progression enchant imo, except on fights where you absolutely have to max out threat.

Personally, I'm sticking with Blood Draining until I get an additional weapon. Once I get Shiver or even another Titanguard, I'll throw Accuracy on one of them and keep BD on the other. Survival comes first, threat second.

Lizana
06-02-2009, 03:42 AM
Stamina is a pool that can be filled up. Healing is water that fills the pool. They are not the same thing.

If you are at 20k HP, and take a 19k melee hit, left on 1k. Blood Reserve heals you for 2k hp, then a holy paladin lands a Holy Light bomb on you for 19k, or more, overhealing for 2k+.

My situation: I'm at 20k hp. I take a 19k melee hit. I don't have Blood Reserve. Holy paladin lands that heal, end result is the same, except I didn't get 2k overhealing from a near worthless enchant.


Now what if the pally only healed for 17k... Now that next hit lands and your dead if you didnt get the insta heal from blood draining...

Anyone can make up numbers for a made up situation in a vacuum, The simple fact that blood draining can save you life and prevent a wipe makes it the best possible enchant for a progression encounter imo...

Kinetix
06-02-2009, 05:38 AM
The only time you should ever go below 35% HP is on a boss that hits for 60-70% of your HP pool with one swing, in which case a 2k heal isn't going to save you.

On any other boss, if you're dropping below 35% HP, something is wrong with your healers.


Actually, it will save you. That 2k heal can make up for a slow reaction time or some lag. I find myself dipping below 35% more often than not in Ulduar. Even on trash. For example XT hits like a truck. Hodir's frozen blows do too. Ignis if your healer is in a pot and they need to say "hey im in the pot. someone heal Kinetix". It may or it may not make a difference. But i'm convinced it does.

Dhalphir
06-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Now what if the pally only healed for 17k... Now that next hit lands and your dead if you didnt get the insta heal from blood draining...

Anyone can make up numbers for a made up situation in a vacuum, The simple fact that blood draining can save you life and prevent a wipe makes it the best possible enchant for a progression encounter imo...

If you look just below, you'll note I addressed that by saying the paladin is not the only healer.

In any case, maybe your healers are just terrible compared to mine, but with the sole exception of IC hardmode, I just don't drop below 35% hp that often. I either die instantly in about a second, or I'm topped off.

Dubzil
06-02-2009, 04:12 PM
If you look just below, you'll note I addressed that by saying the paladin is not the only healer.

In any case, maybe your healers are just terrible compared to mine, but with the sole exception of IC hardmode, I just don't drop below 35% hp that often. I either die instantly in about a second, or I'm topped off.


Either you have the best healers in game who all can instantly pop off 20k heals every time you get hit or you're over exaggerating just a little bit.

If, infact, your healers have zero lag issues, can always pop off huge heals to top you off no matter the situation, probably have 75%+ overheals vs actual heals, then blood draining isn't probably the best enchant for you.

I have good healers (not that can do 20k heals constantly, but they do their job) and I have went through logs that in the 2 seconds between swings I got 3 heals from 3 healers, all 5-8k. just about enough to save me then that 20k hit comes in while the other healer is doing the big cast and 500dmg overkill. The enchant would have saved me.

Now that I have the enchant, being able to see how often it goes procs and actually heals for (not overheals, just heals) This enchant is pretty great for me.

Probably best way to see if Blood Draining is the enchant for you is if you look at all your death logs and see if any deaths are less than 2.2k overkill, if so, the enchant will be useful to you.

Lizana
06-02-2009, 04:48 PM
If you look just below, you'll note I addressed that by saying the paladin is not the only healer.

In any case, maybe your healers are just terrible compared to mine, but with the sole exception of IC hardmode, I just don't drop below 35% hp that often. I either die instantly in about a second, or I'm topped off.

I would bet you drop below 35% more than you know. Pallies spend 5 whole talent points to improve their survivability at below 35% hp... but useing your logic its wasted because you should never drop that low...

I would love to see a WWS report of a full ulduar clear for you

I can almost bet that on some fights like Hodir and x002 you will be dropping below 35% hp

Kataztrophe
06-02-2009, 10:07 PM
I've had both Blade Ward and Blood Draining on my tanking weapons, and Blood Draining is the way to go if you're an MT imo. It's up like 90% of the time for me from what I've seen. Accuracy is cool, but if you're hit capped or near capped with a Dranei in your group its pointless. If I didn't have BR, Mongoose would be my next option.

Rune
06-03-2009, 02:13 AM
Stamina is a pool that can be filled up. Healing is water that fills the pool. They are not the same thing.

If you are at 20k HP, and take a 19k melee hit, left on 1k. Blood Reserve heals you for 2k hp, then a holy paladin lands a Holy Light bomb on you for 19k, or more, overhealing for 2k+.

My situation: I'm at 20k hp. I take a 19k melee hit. I don't have Blood Reserve. Holy paladin lands that heal, end result is the same, except I didn't get 2k overhealing from a near worthless enchant.

Now, obviously the holy paladin's heal is not guaranteed to crit. But he's also not the only healer healing you. I guarantee that in 95% of the situations where you drop below 35% HP, that 2k blood reserve heal will simply increase the amount of overhealing on your next healers heal. Sure, on the Recount charts it will show up as effective healing, but if it hadn't happened, the net result would be the same.

Then there might be 4% of cases where the heal isn't overhealing, and counts as effective healing, but fails to save you anyway, because its such a tiny insignificant heal.

And then 1% of cases where it does save you.

I would rather enchant something like Accuracy, that gives me some solid stats I can look at, see, and gear around.

As a tank in raid you have anything from probably 35k to 45k hp depending on gear and buffs, if you are at 20k and take a hit to take you to 1k health and blood draining kicks in it puts you to 3k before the heal hits for 19k as you say, so now you are at 22k instead of 20k. How is that overhealing, overhealing only kicks in if a heal puts you to full health right away, being put closer to full heath immediately might let you survive a 21k hit from the same boss before a second heal kicks in.
I really dont get the point of that post at all makes no sense.
Are you talking about having the blood reserve enchant on a non-tank with a 20k hp pool, then maybe it is overhealing, but that is not really relevant to this discussion given this is about tanking enchants?

Kandiru
06-03-2009, 04:02 AM
I have heard people having problems with blood draining falling off, is this just for paladin tanks since bleeds can refresh it? I guess warriors / druids will always have a bleed up which means they can run around / get knocked back etc and keep their stack?

Lizana
06-03-2009, 12:36 PM
I hardly ever use rend (Warrior Bleed) and when tanking a boss i have yet to ever have it fall off...

Lizana
06-03-2009, 12:39 PM
As a tank in raid you have anything from probably 35k to 45k hp depending on gear and buffs, if you are at 20k and take a hit to take you to 1k health and blood draining kicks in it puts you to 3k before the heal hits for 19k as you say, so now you are at 22k instead of 20k. How is that overhealing, overhealing only kicks in if a heal puts you to full health right away, being put closer to full heath immediately might let you survive a 21k hit from the same boss before a second heal kicks in.
I really dont get the point of that post at all makes no sense.
Are you talking about having the blood reserve enchant on a non-tank with a 20k hp pool, then maybe it is overhealing, but that is not really relevant to this discussion given this is about tanking enchants?

What the poster was attempting to do was to make a mathmatical situation in which blood draining would be the useless. Thats why they picked such absurd numbers. They were not attempting to show actual facts and figures but instead influence the uninformed reader by showing faulty math.

Rune
06-04-2009, 12:47 AM
What the poster was attempting to do was to make a mathmatical situation in which blood draining would be the useless. Thats why they picked such absurd numbers. They were not attempting to show actual facts and figures but instead influence the uninformed reader by showing faulty math.

Yes but the example doesnt make sense even so, it would take the extreme scenario of blood draining kicking in at highest health possible while triggering it AND a a very large heal kickin in to overheal, and even then means you are on lower hp that little less time, and may survive a hit you wouldnt otherwise before the heal kicks in

Roarc
06-04-2009, 01:58 AM
What is the actual proc-rate of blood draining?

To me it sounds like block - sometimes it's quite good since it gives you that 2K extra health. A boss like Vezax can hit for a large amount but also a large variation in his hits (16K to 25K on me as a Protection Warrior). Here, like the random block, blood draining could kick in and save me.

Have any proper tests been done surrounding this enchant, as in a collection of WWS reports from multiple encounters and different raids?

I can see both views here, to some extent the enchant could sound quite useless but I have been in the sub 2K overkills where this enchant would have given healers those 2 extra seconds to heal the tank up for the next hit. The main question is how often this happens and if it out-weighs the benefits of higher threat in an encounter.

As for warriors and bleeds a lot of us have deep wounds ticking which would up the chance of this buff staying up on us I presume.

Regards
Roarc

Mookey
06-04-2009, 04:45 AM
Buff doesn't wear off if you are in long fight. Simple - there are so much bleed from DW and constant hiting, it even proc on pull on herioc throw, it have very nice proc rate.

You have to understand how it works tho:

Proc 1st gives you 1 stack of the buff which heals for 360-440

If you get all 5 stacks you will get healed for 1800-2200 when you get bellow 35% health. Question if you will have all 5 stacks generally falls on your healers and how hard boss is hitting.

Buff last 20 sec and does fall off on Mimiron between phases, on Stormcaller, on Razorscale's p1 adds, on Constructs on Ignis (can be practiced to not wear off), but realy shines on Steelbreaker, Hodir, Thorim P2, it's great for Mimi, altho you will have to rebuild it again.

There is problem if something is realy hurting you... If mob get you below 35% and you get heal, and in consecutive hits they still bring you bellow 35% it will proc again and again but this time it wont have time to build to full potential...

If you want to use it to full potential I recomend setting custom message on Blood Reserve proc to use dodge trinket after that (if you are not saving it for something) so you can build 5 stacks again.