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View Full Version : Blessing of Sanctuary vs Vigilance



Stephanius
05-29-2009, 04:15 AM
I have noticed that my Blessing of Sanctuary (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25899) is removed whenever Vigilance (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50720) is applied.
http://www.emerald-knights.com/images/WotLK/wowscrnshot_053109_211857.jpg

The curious thing about his is that I can re-cast BoS and it does not knock off Vigilance.
http://www.emerald-knights.com/images/WotLK/wowscrnshot_053109_211902.jpg

Clearly, BOTH Greater Blessing of Sanctuary and Vigilance can be on the same target.



BoS and Vigilance both have the -3% damage taken effect and the same 30 minute duration. If cast after BoS the 'same' effect with longer remaining duration pushing off the other one does kinda make sense.
Yet, both buffs have another, different effect which is independant from each other. Vigliance does the 10% threat transfer and BoS generates mana on block/parry/dodge. So it does absolutely make sense that both buffs can be up on the same target at the same time.

On a pally tank, the benefit of both buffs being up is the mana gain from BoS not being blocked by a warrior tank siphoning threat.
On any other tank, the benefit is minimal - if the warrior tank who did vigilance dies, the -3% damage will still be up.

I consider Vigilance removing BoS a bug.
Any thoughts on this? Am I missing something?

I apologize should this be in the wrong place, I did search but did not find a post regarding interaction between vigilance and sanctuary.

jere
05-29-2009, 05:58 AM
This has been happening for as long as I can remember, not just last patch.

The deal here is, you need to talk to your warrior buddy, and ask him to Vigilence someone else. You need the mana to keep the run going quickly if you are actually tanking stuff. Otherwise, I would just make a macro similar to

/cancelaura Vigilence
/cast [target=player] Greater Blessing of Sanctuary

Which will knock it off when you cast BoS on yourself.

I don't know if I would call it a bug or not. It depends on if the devs wanted it to do that or not I guess.

Stephanius
05-29-2009, 06:01 AM
The /cancelaure is not actually needed.
Vigilance knocks off BoS, but BoS does not knock off Vigilance. That is the weird bit. =]

jere
05-29-2009, 06:10 AM
Well if BoS doesn't knock off Vigilence, then it would definitely be needed for the macro (alternately, you could right click it off, but /cancelaura does the same thing).

Why are you saying it wouldn't be needed? That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Stephanius
05-29-2009, 06:14 AM
Even though BoS does not knock off Vigilance, you can still apply BoS.
You can have both BoS and Vigilance in parallel, if BoS is applied after Vigilance.

That is at least what it looks like to me. =]

jere
05-29-2009, 07:19 AM
Ahh gotcha, I misread your post then. I will have to test it out. It does sound like a bug if it now works the way you describe it.

Feanorr
05-31-2009, 05:05 PM
A bit out of subject, but why a war put vigilance on another tank?

Wukki
05-31-2009, 05:19 PM
It's useful for damage reduction, or quick taunt refreshes.

Zyffyr
05-31-2009, 09:57 PM
If you happen to have 2 Warrior tanks, putting vigilance on each other pretty much cancels out the threat change (not exactly, since they probably aren't doing exactly the same amount of base) while giving both the damage reduction.

It isn't an all-the-time technique but it is a tool to be aware of.

Feanorr
06-01-2009, 10:02 AM
ok but in this case, it's useless since the pal already got the 3% reduction from BoSanc.

Helgi
06-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Mmmm, was in Ulduar last night and it worked a little different for me...



BoS was knocked off by Vigilance. When BoS was reapplied, it informed me that a more powerful buff was active.
If Greater BoS was applied and then Vigilance was applied, Greater BoS was knocked off. Once Greater BoS was re-applied, Vigilance remained.


I too believe it is a bug. It seems to me that Blizzard intended for a tank to either have BoS or Vigilance, but not both. Of course, they may have intended for a tank to be able to have both BoS and Vigilance, but for some reason I doubt that.

Stephanius
06-01-2009, 03:38 PM
That is what I meant Helgi. Unless we are short of pallies, I am always using greater blessings. =]

I updated the original post with screenshots and added some clarity.

In my opinion, the bug is simply limited to Vigilance removing gBoS.
That is of course if my educated guess that the damage reduction part of the buff does not stack is correct. =]

Topher714
06-02-2009, 12:06 PM
I play a warrior tank. We don't use Vigilance on a pally tank for the 3% damage reduction; we know you have BoSanc. We don't even really use it for the 10% threat transfer; we're probably not tanking the same mob, and there are people doing way more damage to our target. We use it for the taunt refresh. For those not familiar with the mechanic, anytime the person with our Vigilance buff is struck in combat, it ends the cooldown on Taunt.

For the vast majority of anything that requires more than 1 tank, you're probably only using 2. And in multiple-tank situations, you're likely looking at either an AoE pull, or waves of targets. Warrior threat has much to be desired, especially on multi-target fights, not to mention the fact that no damage to us = no rage = no threat, so having the ability to spam taunt at incoming mobs or to pull individuals off of the "AoE tank" is crucial. So we put Vigilance on the only other person who's supposed to be getting hit.

I hope it's a bug, and one that they fix soon. The buffs should stack (not including the 3% damage reduction) as they have separate effects. Someone is getting screwed in every warrior/pally tank combo right now in the meantime; either you have no mana, or we have no threat.

Stephanius
06-03-2009, 12:42 AM
Tropher, I wasn't saying anything against Vigilance itself or against using it.

As it is now, this is just a bit weird and illogical but easy enough to work around since both buffs can be up if gBoS is applied after Vigilance.

Kandiru
06-03-2009, 03:57 AM
If you are a warrior and want to vigilance a paladin, do it early BEFORE they bless to avoid wasting their reagents and mana :)

jere
06-03-2009, 04:53 AM
Actually, it is better to simply ask. Some have to put on normal BoSanc which won't go on when vigilence is up. Only greater BoSanc appears to be able to be reapplied. Depending on your raid makeup, the paladin might be doing the normal version. It is always better to simply send the pally a whisper and ask. He/She will let you know if it will mess them up.

Airowird
06-07-2009, 05:34 AM
I have been thinking why this is as it is now and I believe to have found the underlying rules.

There are 3 effects that matter here:
1) 3% damage reduction (both Vigilance & BoSanc)
2) threat transfer (Vigilance)
3) mana return on avoidance (BoSanc)

Here are the known buff application rules:
a) Current buff mechanics dictate that a buff of equal power must be of longer duration than the current one on the target to be able to apply.
b) If a buff with several effects is on a target and a buff with only either effect, but longer duration is applied, than they will co-exist, without getting twice the shared effect. The classic example of this is the old Mongoose/Agility Elixirs 'bug' in vanilla.
c) If a buff gives an effect that is 'more powerful' AND has a longer duration than a second buff, that second buff is removed or blocked from being applied.

Test results:
We know that Vigilance overwrites BoSanc at all times, following rule a. Therefor Vigilance is of equal or greater power than BoSanc.
We also have seen that only gBoSanc can be applied on a target with Vigilance, but it does not remove Vigilance. This fits perfectly in rule b. Therefor BoSanc is of equal or lesser power than Vigilance.
Because applying Vigilance after BoSanc falls under rule c rather than b, we can say that Vigilance is not of equal or lesser power than BoSanc.

Conclusion:
Add those 3 up and the only option left is that the game sees Vigilance as an 'Improved' BoSanc, either because it values the threat reduction higher than the mana return, or simply because it does not see the mana return as a beneficial effect.

Problems and solutions:
The problem lies with the game saving resources by removing 'useless' buffs. Changing either buff to equalise their secondary effect in power would probably result in a complete exclusion of having both effects up at the same time. The only feasable way I can see here is to change the game mechanics to remember all buffs from different players and only let them overwrite their own buffs.
This would mean that e.g. a Paladin in a raid can not overwrite a normal gBoM with a talented BoM and then replace that with something else. The gBoM would simply remain dormant during the time the improved BoM is on the player. The extra resources used for this would mostly be client-side, making it an easy, inexpensive change for a lot of buffing ease :)


Wow, longer post than I expected, but atleast it should have all the information needed to explain anyone what the Vigilance vs BoSanc problem is about.

Tarigar
06-07-2009, 07:15 PM
I always vote let the pally keep his BoS and you throw it on your top tps dps.

sicness
06-07-2009, 07:17 PM
The only problem I have with BoSanc removing Vig is when the other main tank in my guild is a paly and I want my taunt to be off cool down, which for some encounters is great to have. Don't see why they can't just make them not stack but not remove each other. :/

jere
06-07-2009, 07:56 PM
Well honestly, as a pally, I wouldn't want the threat reduction for trash at all. Just slows down things.

Jackace
06-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Well honestly, as a pally, I wouldn't want the threat reduction for trash at all. Just slows down things.


Well to be fair paladins even losing 10% of their threat will still do more sustained TPS then a warrior.

My opinion is Vigilance in it's current design is just not a very good talent.

Topher714
06-08-2009, 07:16 AM
Topher, I wasn't saying anything against Vigilance itself or against using it.
I know, and I apologize if my post sounded admonishing. I was simply trying to explain how the ability worked from a warrior's point of view, since I don't think most people, even the other tank classes, understand everything that's going on with it.

Here's the tooltip text on the ability itself:
Focuses your protective gaze on a group or raid target, reducing their damage taken by 3% and transferring 10% of the threat they cause to you. In addition, each time they are hit by an attack, the cooldown on your Taunt ability is refreshed. Lasts 30 min. This effect can only be on one target at a time.Emphasis added. Unfortunately, the bold part is not present in the text on the buff itself, so (in the case of tanks) the recipient is often unaware of why they're getting it.

On a single-tank fight, such as Hodir, yes, I put Vigilance on the highest DPS. And while warrior threat is still not anything to brag about even with Vigilance, believe me, it is well worth the talent point. If I'm in danger of getting out-threated while doing 6k TPS, then getting 10% of someone else's threat is at least a 600 TPS increase. Not only that, but it can be switched around during the fight to whomever rises to 2nd place on Omen next, making it similar in use to Hand of Salvation.

However, the more useful effect on multi-tank fights is the one not listed on the buff: the taunt refresh. On fights like Yogg-Saron phase 3, a warrior pretty much HAS to put Vigilance on the other tank, or there's no way he can pick up the Immortal Guardians fast enough. You say let the pally keep Blessing of Sanctuary, and put Vigilance on top DPS; well, it's not that we don't want you to have BoSanc, but the threat transfer doesn't make a difference here. The taunt refresh does. And waiting for a dps or a healer to be "hit by an attack" isn't an option with mobs that will 1-shot non-tanks. Or picking up constructs on Ignis. Or Freya, when pulling dying lashers off aoe'ers. Or Thorim or Iron Council hard modes, where a resisted taunt on a tank switch means a wipe if you have to wait for an 8-second cooldown.

I don't know how much of a necessity Sanctuary is for you (I can Vigilance you on Vezax still, right? =P), so I'm not trying to say our buff is more important and you should go without, but I do know that there are certain times where I pretty much HAVE to have Vigilance on the other tank. So if those coincide with times you guys HAVE to have BoSanc, then all I'm saying is they need to make them stack.

jere
06-08-2009, 04:16 PM
Well to be fair paladins even losing 10% of their threat will still do more sustained TPS then a warrior.

My opinion is Vigilance in it's current design is just not a very good talent.
Not on trash. Consecration does threat over time. Vigilence + Consecration is a terrible combination if your DPS is good.

sicness
06-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Topher I can't agree with you more about the taunt refresh. I keep getting asked by guildies why I don't put Vig on them, and the answer is they don't need it. 2-3 hard modes might require that they get it, but a majority of the time I'd rather have my taunt up 100% of the time especially while I'm not hit capped and not using the taunt glyph.

Jackace
06-08-2009, 07:21 PM
Not on trash. Consecration does threat over time. Vigilence + Consecration is a terrible combination if your DPS is good.

Didn't say it was ideal, just said a paladin even losing 10% of their threat is still doing more sustained threat than a warrior.

Stephanius
06-10-2009, 09:03 AM
I have been thinking why this is as it is now and I believe to have found the underlying rules.

There are 3 effects that matter here:
1) 3% damage reduction (both Vigilance & BoSanc)
2) threat transfer (Vigilance)
3) mana return on avoidance (BoSanc)

Here are the known buff application rules:
a) Current buff mechanics dictate that a buff of equal power must be of longer duration than the current one on the target to be able to apply.
b) If a buff with several effects is on a target and a buff with only either effect, but longer duration is applied, than they will co-exist, without getting twice the shared effect. The classic example of this is the old Mongoose/Agility Elixirs 'bug' in vanilla.
c) If a buff gives an effect that is 'more powerful' AND has a longer duration than a second buff, that second buff is removed or blocked from being applied.
...


Nice summary!

Essentially, the game uses rule (a) when Vigilance is applied over gBoS, which incorrect due to different secondary effects.
It should use rule (b) as gBoS does.

Oh and Topher, gBoS and Vigilance _do_ stack atm, so it's not an either or question.

jere
06-10-2009, 12:53 PM
Oh and Topher, gBoS and Vigilance _do_ stack atm, so it's not an either or question.

They never have before. Just because you can see two buffs up on a boss, doesn't mean you get the same benefit twice. You only get 3% from either of them, but you do not get the benefit of both.

Stephanius
06-12-2009, 05:32 AM
Oh and Topher, gBoS and Vigilance _do_ stack atm, so it's not an either or question.
They never have before. Just because you can see two buffs up on a boss, doesn't mean you get the same benefit twice. You only get 3% from either of them, but you do not get the benefit of both.

Sorry for not being clear. What I meant was that - unlike what Topher made it sound like - you can have both buffs active, i.e. the primary -3% damage effect ONCE, and the secondary effects from both buffs.

bjoli198
06-12-2009, 07:23 AM
i truely hate the vigilance... a freaking warrior OT casted it on me when i was MT... try build some aggro then...

Airowird
06-15-2009, 03:52 AM
Nice summary!

Essentially, the game uses rule (a) when Vigilance is applied over gBoS, which incorrect due to different secondary effects.
It should use rule (b) as gBoS does.

Oh and Topher, gBoS and Vigilance _do_ stack atm, so it's not an either or question.The problem is that making both use (b), they will constantly remove eachother instead of co-existing, sort of how Blessings replacement work. (closest example I could think of)

Tbh, the problem lies with the shared 3% dmg reduction.

The easiest (relatively speaking) solution I can actually come up with is to either rewrite the current buffing mechanics for this specific situation or simply change Vigilance to something else. (I would say something raid-wide tbf, it's too iconic to have as a single-target buff)

Tarigar
06-15-2009, 09:55 AM
How I view Vigilance is as a Blessing of Slavation fo WotlK. The only time I ever throw it on another tank is Kolo for the Taunt refresh. But with my hit being improved etc. I see this even being less of a case.

My dps gets it over a tank everyday. DPS really doesn't need the mana gain what they need is to not pull threat. For example: Thorim's Arena we have a decked out unholy dk and none of the tanks could keep their aoe threat above him so I tossed him a vigilance and it became a non-issue.

Warlock gets it on all the other fights except XT when it goes on the rogue.

What I would like is a mouseover macro for vigilance so i can switch it on the fly.

Blue
06-16-2009, 10:38 AM
Hmm, never would occur to me to give my vig to a pally! I started out giving it to the healer, as I thought it to be a mitigation "buff" for 'em...but, soon realised that it was the damage dealer in the group that I needed to place it on. I wasn't aware of the taunt mechanic--I usually taunt only when they're going after the healer--which makes me think I need to vig my healer, again...(my head is spinning--ouch)!



Yeah, that macro is lookin good, about now... ;>)

Airowird
06-22-2009, 04:24 AM
#showtooltip Vigilance
/cast [target=mouseover] Vigilance

Easiest macro for simple mouseover Vigilance, can add a focus to it if you want, but I usually prefer that for my other tank (debuffs, see how much dmg he's taking, ...)

Stephanius
07-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Tier 9 Armor Sets Models, PTR Notes Update (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=78817.0)


Patch 3.2 - PTR Notes Update

Bug Fixes

Paladin


Blessing of Sanctuary: This talent and Vigilance will now both be able to be cast on the same target without sometimes overwriting each other.

Warrior


Vigilance: This talent and Blessing of Sanctuary will now both be able to be cast on the same target without sometimes overwriting each other.



HA! I was right. =]