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Kerg
05-28-2009, 10:37 AM
First of all, I am usually an EH first guy. But I do value Avoidance. EH saves you from spike damage. But often the reason you take spike damage in the first place is because you get a string of 3 hits in a row from a boss, and fail to avoid at least one. So I think as you focus on high EH, you should also keep stacking avoidance as well, wherever you can pick it up, so you end up taking spike damage less often.

Anyway, that is not the topic of my thread.

My concern is that many people may be getting the perception that, because Avoidance in WotLK is now subject to diminishing returns, stacking Avoidance is bad now. Like the more they get, the worse it is to get more. I’ve seen people say that avoidance trinkets suck because after you factor in diminishing returns, the effect you get is not nearly as good as you would think. This is very flawed thinking, because what often fails to get mentioned is that, although Avoidance is subject to diminishing returns, it is also at the same time subject to significant increasing returns.

For example, when you are at 0% Avoidance, 100% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/100 = 1%. But when you are at 50% Avoidance, only 50% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/50 = 2%. Effectively, adding +1% Avoidance at 50% is worth TWICE as much as adding it at 0%.

At 75% Avoidance, adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/25 = 4%. Effectively worth 4 TIMES as much as adding it at 0%.

This is basically the reason for the WotLK Avoidance nerf, IMO. Blizzard was worried that tanks (or rogues :)) would be able to exploit the game by stacking Avoidance to ridiculous levels by popping trinkets, etc., and thus would be getting hit so infrequently it would make keeping the tank alive trivial.

Anyway, I ran some numbers based upon Satrina's formula here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html) for calculating Avoidance.

It is not a perfectly linear balancing out effect like Armor is, as Satrina's famous example way back when showed, but in my example, it still canceled out the diminishing returns effect. In fact, as you’ll see, I am still getting slightly increasing returns from adding any form of Avoidance.

I used the values currently on my gear. I added base 9.96% Dodge, 10% Parry, and 5% Miss for a naked warrior with the two +5% avoidance talents.

Agility from Gear: 44
Defense Rating from Gear: 717
Dodge Rating from Gear: 512
Parry Rating from Gear: 176

Dodge: 26.48345%
Parry: 18.13830%
Miss: 9.41599%
Total Avoidance: 54.03774%

I then calculated the Avoidance added by hybrid gems (X & 12 Stam.) at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.07505%
+8 Defense Rating: +.12693%
+8 Dodge Rating: +.14012%
+8 Parry Rating: +.11597%

Then I calculated how much Avoidance those same gems would add to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.11366%
+8 Defense Rating: +.20373%
+8 Dodge Rating: +.21216%
+8 Parry Rating: +.16952%

There you can see the Diminishing Returns effect. Adding +8 Dodge Rating to a naked warrior you get +.21216% Avoidance. Adding it to my Naxx/Ulduar gear only nets me +.14012%. So adding Dodge Rating now nets me only about 66% of the Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

HOWEVER, when I compare the Effective Avoidance gained, i.e. the % reduction in blows that will actually hit me, given my current level of Total Avoidance, the differences are MUCH MUCH smaller. And in fact, not only is there not a decreasing return, there is actually a slight increasing return.

Effective Avoidance added from those gems at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.16329%
+8 Defense Rating: +.27616%
+8 Dodge Rating: +.30486%
+8 Parry Rating: +.25232%

Effective Avoidance added from those gems to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.15147%
+8 Defense Rating: +.27150%
+8 Dodge Rating: +.28273%
+8 Parry Rating: +.22591%

As you can see, comparing Effective Avoidance, current gear vs. naked, the numbers are very close, and in fact, not only are there no diminishing returns in terms of Effective Avoidance, there are slightly increasing returns. Adding Dodge Rating now nets me about 108% of the Effective Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

Of course, I’m sure this is nothing new to the administrators of this site or those who understand how it works (and btw, I have been a big fan of this site for a while :)). But I thought I’d share my example, because there is a lot of misinformation out there, and nowhere did I find this explained clearly.

Note: If anyone wants to see my math, I can post it. And if anyone sees any flaws in my calculations, feel free to point it out so I can correct it. Thanks.

Xav
05-28-2009, 10:41 AM
I think a lot of people were aware of this, indeed, as you said. What I would be curious to see, though, is a full table with a wide range of numbers. Rather than the two polar ends: Zero gear on, and fully geared, perhaps with gear equipped, and then an ever increasing amount of avoidance on the tank, to see if when you're at 60-70% avoidance, how much worth the same +8 dodge rating is worth at that point, etc.

I know blizzard designed it to stay somewhat equal on all ends of the scale, but I'd still like to see it!

Kerg
05-28-2009, 02:11 PM
I think a lot of people were aware of this, indeed, as you said. What I would be curious to see, though, is a full table with a wide range of numbers. Rather than the two polar ends: Zero gear on, and fully geared, perhaps with gear equipped, and then an ever increasing amount of avoidance on the tank, to see if when you're at 60-70% avoidance, how much worth the same +8 dodge rating is worth at that point, etc.

I know blizzard designed it to stay somewhat equal on all ends of the scale, but I'd still like to see it!

Hmmm... I was playing with the numbers again, and going from naked to fully geared and then comparing Dodge then vs. Dodge now is a little misleading now that I look at it. The reason is because Total Avoidance also takes your other types of Avoidance into play. So part of the reason the benefit of +8 Dodge Rating goes up when you jump from naked to full geared is because of the fact that your Parry and Miss are also going up significantly. Basically, the more Parry and Miss you have, the more your Dodge is worth, and vise versa. So it's a little more complicated than I thought. :)

I'll play with it some more, though, and try to come up with a graph.

MrDuck
05-28-2009, 02:40 PM
Thanks for the post, i was trying to explain this to plenty of people, but there's tons of tanks out there who just state "avoidance sucks because of diminishing returns killing it" or such, might just point them to this instead of hours of explaining why it just is so. I'm rather interested in these graphs if you can push some, i'm already at over 30% dodge with raid buffs, would be nice to see how is the curve looking like at such avoidance levels.

jere
05-28-2009, 03:59 PM
I think a lot of people were aware of this, indeed, as you said. What I would be curious to see, though, is a full table with a wide range of numbers. Rather than the two polar ends: Zero gear on, and fully geared, perhaps with gear equipped, and then an ever increasing amount of avoidance on the tank, to see if when you're at 60-70% avoidance, how much worth the same +8 dodge rating is worth at that point, etc.

I know blizzard designed it to stay somewhat equal on all ends of the scale, but I'd still like to see it!

This isn't exactly what you are looking for probably, but it is in that direction: If you take the derivative of the DR equation with respect to the avoidance type, you get "how effective" your "next" dodge % is. I.E. your "next" 1% dodge really ends up being roughly __% dodge after DR. Now it won't tell you exactly how much dodge you would get from the next 8 rating points, but it gives you an idea of where you are at:



(C_d^2)*k
dodge_ratio = -----------
(d+C_d*k)^2


I called it dodge_ratio for lack of better wording. C_d is the C constant for dodge, k is the k constant for your class, d is your dodge % before DR but without talents and base/naked values, which aren't affected by DR (I have an equation for using the "after DR" value on your char sheet, but I need to hunt that up).

So if you have like say 30% dodge from dodge rating, defense rating, and extra agility (before DR), then your dodge ratio is

(88.129021^2)*0.956/(30+88.129021*0.956)^2 = 0.5688

So, roughly, you are at the point where your next 1% dodge will yield 0.56% dodge after DR. I say roughly because if the slope of the DR function is changing quickly, it will be less than that. But it gives you a ballpark of where you are currently.

We were talking about it at maintankadin a couple of weeks ago. Here is a graph for the dodge curve. The blue line is this "dodge ratio" I am talking about, the green line is simply dodge after DR, and the pink line is just there for visualization (it's dodge before DR plotted against dodge before DR so you can see how DR deviates from "before" DR).

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4827/dodgedr.jpg

Kazeyonoma
05-28-2009, 04:16 PM
sexy graph =D

Kerg
05-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Okay, here's what I came up with...

I took Agility out, giving it a value of zero from gear. I set Defense Rating from Gear = 689, which the minimum needed to reach 540 Defense, and then I froze it there.

Then I looked at how you would gear from there. My Dodge Rating to Parry Rating on my current gear is about 3 to 1. So starting with these stats...

Defense Rating from Gear: 689
Dodge Rating from Gear: 0
Parry Rating from Gear: 0

... I raised Dodge Rating and Parry Rating in increments of +30 Dodge Rating & +10 Parry Rating, all the way up to 75% Total Avoidance. And I calculated the Avoidance gained from the last increment of 30/10 Dodge/Parry Rating. Then I calculated the Effective Avoidance gained from last increment of 30/10 Dodge/Parry Rating. And then I graphed it.

As expected, Avoidance gained goes down each increment, reflecting Diminishing Returns. But Effective Avoidance gained for each increment is pretty flat, with a gradual upward slope reflecting net increasing returns.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9642/avoidancechart.jpg

jere
05-28-2009, 04:30 PM
Did the math quickly at home

So this is the general equation if your input avoidance value is before DR:


(C_d^2)*k
dodge_ratio = -----------
(d+C_d*k)^2


Which is what I posted earlier.

And here is the general equation if your input avoidance is after DR:


(C_d - d)^2
dodge_ratio = -----------
(C_d^2)*k


As an example, according to the armory, Xav has 24.66% dodge after DR. Using the second equation:



(88.129021 - 24.66)^2
dodge_ratio = --------------------- = 0.542535
(88.129021^2)*0.956


So right now, Xav is at the point where his dodge is about 54.2535% efficient, for lack of better wording.

You can extrapolate this to find equations where you compare parry to dodge, but for all practical purposes dodge is better to stack (I did the comparisons over on maintankadin if anyone is interested).

EDIT:
Here are the equations for both parry and dodge graphed versus dodge and parry after DR is considered:
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6554/ratios.jpg
So taking the previous example, if Xav has 24.66% dodge after DR, then the graph shows he has a little over 54% efficiency in dodge. Additionally, if Xav has 18.71% parry after DR, then he has a little over 38% efficiency in parry. Those are "percentages" mind you and not ratings. If you wanted to look at how efficient a rating point is, then you would need to adjust using the combat rating coefficients (parry takes 25% more rating per pre DR % than dodge does)

EDIT: As a side note, when I refer to efficiency, I mean the efficiency of the "next" amount you add, not the efficiency of what you have already. Basically, how good is the "next" point of dodge or parry going to be.

Satorri
05-28-2009, 04:37 PM
Your point is a good one, many people who don't understand the nature of the mechanics eschew avoidance as no longer a valuable stat (missing the fact that it has brought down to linear value like armor always has been, zomg armor diminishes?? Stop getting gear with armor!!).

You lost me on your math though. Did you pull out the EJ formula for diminishing avoidance and just plot lots of values as if you were adding rating to gear?

And "effective avoidance gained" what do you mean by that? When you say "total avoidance" you're counting these diminished dodge+parry? Are you factoring miss? Are you factoring the sliding scale as the avoidance value from defense is also reduced as you have more avoidance from direct ratings?

Forgive all the questions, I get the sense we're not using common terms for expressing values.

Xav
05-29-2009, 01:02 AM
I think I get your graph, kerg, but I'm not so sure. The pink line represents the % you're gaining. The blue is what your actual avoidance is.

The pink curve going up represents that your overall value (real avoidance gained) from each point of dodge is still getting more valuable, all the way up to 75%.

So in layman's terms, even when you're adding "1%" dodge from gear and it only actually adds ".4%" dodge to your character screen, doing that was significantly more beneficial than the previous "1%" you added.

I suppose it's all simple math, and a formula, and they indeed designed it all just dandy - avoidance DR's, but it's always good, and still ends up being extremely efficient at the high end.

Magnuss
05-29-2009, 01:35 AM
Avoidance works like armor, the more you get the better, but the less each bit is worth on its own.

^That is what I extracted from you math guys

Edit: Just out of curiosity, does this change our line of thinking in terms of gearing/geming at this point? Or is it still Effective Health is king until you are farming Algalon kind of stuff?

Trondhjem
05-29-2009, 03:08 AM
Hey, wow, that's genious... so if I understood this right it means about that:

from 0% to 1% Avoidance you get 1% damage reduction without diminuishing returns.
from e.g. 50% to 51% Avoidance, you get 2% damage reduction but with -- let's say 0.6 -- diminuishing returns.
given that the diminuishing returns are always 'cheaper' than your effective damage reduction, it's still no 'waste' to go for avoidance.

However I'm more the EH guy, but with that JC nerf I have to go for some socketboni, so looking for some alternatives can't hurt ;)

Darksend
05-29-2009, 05:32 AM
Avoidance works like armor, the more you get the better, but the less each bit is worth on its own.


I have been trying to say this since i saw the OP yesterday without all the fancy math but i fail at putting things into words.

And as xav said this is something most of us already new but i dont know if any of us actually knew the specifics.

wonder how the numbers work for druids since we cant parry

Satorri
05-29-2009, 05:40 AM
Aye, for those just tuning in, avoidance has been given the same sort of mechanic as armor for the same reason.

Because these work on a limited scale (i.e. 100% is complete immunity) they are given a diminishing return so that the effect on time-to-live is actually linear, just like straight health.

In BC avoidance was less common directly from gear and you had to work to add it, but the lack of diminishing returns meant that a very well geared tank would actually get significant survival value from high avoidance (though people were also very wary of it when it wasn't required since you had to give up more static damage reduction leaving the shots between avoids the opportunity to do really painful damage and/or crushing blows of doom).

Kerg
05-29-2009, 08:40 AM
I will post the math behind the graph I did this afternoon, when I get some time. :)

CKaz
05-29-2009, 10:03 AM
Maybe its clear from the above but I thought a simple 3 swing analysis would do the trick, lets look at the percent chance you'll get hit 2 and 3 times in a row

At 30%/40%/50%/60% avoid

30% -> 2 hits 49% -> 3 hits (.7)^3 = 34.3%
40% -> 2 hits 36% -> 3 hits (.6)^3 = 21.6%
50% -> 2 hits 25% -> 3 hits (.5)^3 = 12.5%
60% -> 2 hits 16% -> 3 hits (.4)^3 = 6.4%

This paints a lot of pictures and lends even more analysis
[Again apologies if covered above, I made my own avoidance check on the graph ;)]

Each step is quite impressive, and frankly where it looks like it might be losing some of its edge, its gaining. Lets take 50% to 60% for example.

50% -> 2 hits 25% -> 3 hits (.5)^3 = 12.5%
60% -> 2 hits 16% -> 3 hits (.4)^3 = 6.4%

Not quite 10% better in either category right? Oh contraire.
Comparing the two the guy at 60% will take 2 hits in a row and 3 hits in a row almost half as much as the 50% guy. This is actually just picking up steam.

60% -> 2 hits 16% -> 3 hits (.4)^3 = 6.4%
70% -> 2 hits 9% -> 3 hits (.3)^3 = 2.7%

2 Hits is even closer to half, and 3 in a row? We've surpassed it now.

70% -> 2 hits 9% -> 3 hits (.3)^3 = 2.7%
80% -> 2 hits 4% -> 3 hits (.2)^3 = .08%

And scene.
You can clearly see the need to 'diminish' returns as returns get silly good.
This last iteration shows the 80% guy avoiding the double-hit more than twice as much and the triple hit less than a third of the time the other guy needs to take it.

Definately there is a need to 'run the numbers' in scenarios, e.g. that helps you figure out where Crit is good IMO too. Going from never crit to every 10th/5th/3.x swing is a pretty significant for each 10% crit jump. But it continues to tail off as you go.

Here is the reverse - it starts pretty slow if you have little avoidance, but it ramps up, getting stellar at high levels

edit - part of the core of the 'DK drama' as the avoidance tank right, possibly even moreso for Death Nights
[not a typo - Death Knight Night Elves ;)]

Satorri
05-29-2009, 10:11 AM
As much as I loathe probability in real life it is a great point in the game, as that is what we want to rely on Avoidance for most, the holes in which we don't take damage that gives healers time to restore our health.

Thanks for sharing that.

Kerg
05-29-2009, 04:10 PM
The Graph

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9642/avoidancechart.jpg

The Math Behind It

First of all, I tried to simulate a simple gearing method that many people might use. I think the majority of MTís first focus on getting to 540 Defense to become uncrittable (689 Defense Rating). And then focus on Effective Health (Stamina and Armor), while picking up Avoidance where they can get it without sacrificing much Effective Health.

Most pieces have Defense on them, and rarely do Effective Health-focused tanks go too far above the 689 needed for uncrittable. So to simplify things, I froze the amount at 689 for this model. I also took Agility out of the equation for simplicity, since there is not much available on tanking gear anyway.

That leaves Dodge Rating and Parry Rating as the variables. All else being equal, pieces with Dodge are favored over pieces with Parry, because Parry yields significantly less Avoidance per rating point. Parry gems are never used. But 8 Dodge/12 Stam. gems are often used in red sockets to pick up socket bonuses, especially since many socket bonuses yield more Stamina. However, many of the best tanking pieces have Parry on them, so you inevitably get some of it on your gear. My current gear has about 3 times as much Dodge Rating as Parry Rating, so I chose this ratio as my gearing up model.

So... I started out with these variables...

Agility_from_Gear = 0
Defense_Rating_from_Gear = 689
Dodge_Rating_from_Gear = 0
Parry_Rating_from_Gear = 0

And these constants...

Naked Dodge = 5 from Anticipation talent + 4.96 base = 9.96
Naked Parry = 5 from Deflection talent + 5 base = 10
Naked Miss = 5
Defense/Defense Rating = 4.9185
Dodge/Defense = .04
Parry/Defense = .04
Miss/Defense = .04
Base Dodge Rating/1% Dodge = 39.34799
Base Dodge Rating/Agility = .01360
Base Parry Rating/1% Parry = 48.18499
Warrior Diminishing Returns coefficient = k = .956
Warrior Dodge cap = c = 88.129021
Warrior Parry cap = c = 47.003525
Warrior Miss cap = c = 16

And then I calculated Total Avoidance using Satrinaís step-by-step formula in Diminishing Returns - Avoidance (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html).

Total Avoidance = Dodge + Parry + Miss

Dodge = Ad = 1/(1/c+k/A) = 1/[(1/88.129021)+.956/[((Defense_Rating_from_Gear/4.9185)*.04)+(Dodge_Rating_from_Gear/39.34799)+(Agility_from_Gear*.01360)]]+9.96 = 15.45572%

Parry = Ad = 1/(1/c+k/A) = 1/[(1/47.003525)+.956/[((Defense_Rating_from_Gear/4.9185)*.04)+(Parry_Rating_from_Gear/48.18499)]]+10 = 15.21138%

Miss = Ad = 1/(1/c+k/A) = 1/[(1/16)+.956/((Defense_Rating_from_Gear/4.9185)*.04)]+5 = 9.28977%

Total Avoidance = 15.45572+15.21138+9.28977 = 39.95687%

Thatís where I started. Then what I did was add increments of 30 Dodge Rating and 10 Parry Rating (reflecting the 3 to 1 ratio I chose for the model) all the way up to 75% Total Avoidance.

For each one of those increments I calculated the actual Avoidance Gained...

Avoidance Gained = (Total Avoidance +30 Dodge & 10 Parry Rating) - (Total Avoidance)

Going from 0 Dodge Rating and 0 Parry Rating to 30 Dodge and 10 Parry Rating, you get...

Avoidance Gained = 40.81958-39.95687 = .86271%

For the next increment, you go from 30 Dodge Rating and 10 Parry Rating to 60 Dodge Rating and 20 Parry Rating, and get...

Avoidance Gained = 41.66935-40.81958 = .84977%

This number for each increment reflects the Avoidance Gained by adding 30 Dodge/10 Parry, including Diminishing Returns. This represents the lower downward sloping blue curve in the graph.

Then I calculated Effective Avoidance Gained, which represents the reduction in blows that are actually getting through given your current Total Avoidance. (See the above example in the OP, where I showed that at 50% Avoidance, adding 1% Avoidance actually raises your Effective Avoidance by 2%.) This is calculated like this...

Chance To Be Hit = 100-Total Avoidance

(Avoidance Gained/Chance To Be Hit) = (Effective Avoidance Gained/100)

Plug and solve and you get...

Effective Avoidance Gained = (Avoidance Gained*100)/(100-Total Avoidance)

Going from 0 Dodge Rating and 0 Parry Rating to 30 Dodge and 10 Parry Rating, you get...

Effective Avoidance Gained = (.86271*100)/(100-39.95687) = 1.43681%

For the next increment, you go from 30 Dodge Rating and 10 Parry Rating to 60 Dodge Rating and 20 Parry Rating, and get...

Effective Avoidance Gained = (.84977*100)/(100-39.95687) = 1.43515%

This number for each increment reflects the Effective Avoidance Gained by adding 30 Dodge/10 Parry. This is the reduction in blows that are actually getting through given your current Total Avoidance, and is what really matters when looking at how avoidance benefits you. This represents the upper violet curve in the graph.

Clear as mud? Sorry, I made up terms where I didnít know what to call them, but hopefully I defined them well in this explanation. And I am not a mathematician. I love playing with numbers, but I havenít taken any math classes since Calculus and Stats in college, and donít really do any math at work unless Iím playing with WoW stats. :)

Here are the plot numbers from the graph....

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8805/chart1.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3296/chart2.jpg

Agmar
05-30-2009, 12:02 AM
So in a nutshell this means - defense and dodge are still very good, but half as good as they were, but we just won't need sunwell radiance.

shez
06-28-2009, 10:58 AM
Effective Avoidance Gained = (Avoidance Gained*100)/(100-Total Avoidance)

I don't understand this, how do you get this formula? And what exactly is effective avoidance?

Doormat
06-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Effective Avoidance would be the percent of the remaining chance you have to be hit (not avoiding) that you are reducing. In example form:

I have 50% avoidance so the chance I get hit is 50%. Lets say I can get 5% more avoidance. This gives me 45% chance to be hit, which is a 10% reduction on the previous 50% hit. This 10% is the Effective Avoidance measured.

This is what motivates the need for diminishing returns because 10% avoidance is better when you have more avoidance. This is offset by the diminishing returns making dodge rating (or parry) give less avoidance. So the interesting thing to compare is dodge rating (or parry) versus effective avoidance and we see that it is roughly constant.

shez
06-28-2009, 08:24 PM
thanks, it makes sense to me now

Satorri
06-29-2009, 06:56 AM
Very well said, Doormat, that's exactly the thing that more people need to understand so we can stop hearing, "avoidance has diminishing returns!! It's just not worth investing in!"

GravityDK
06-30-2009, 05:53 AM
50% -> 2 hits 25% -> 3 hits (.5)^3 = 12.5%
60% -> 2 hits 16% -> 3 hits (.4)^3 = 6.4%

Comparing the two the guy at 60% will take 2 hits in a row and 3 hits in a row almost half as much as the 50% guy. This is actually just picking up steam.


That is a good way of expressing the benefit: measuring the reduction of chain hits.

Makes me think I'll go back to Regals (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40031) or similar to maintain the good JC socket bonuses.

Satorri
06-30-2009, 06:12 AM
Shifting fuh tuh wuh!

<3 Agility. Armor (=AP), Dodge, Crit

Action packed stat right there.

Forklift
06-30-2009, 06:18 AM
I skimmed this thread, but reading this has really reminded me of this great thread that never got updated for 3.x:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/37241-power-avoidance-preliminary-results.html

I guess this is partly because most of what is relevant from that thread applies to when you could get 70%+ avoidance, making each additional % reduce the chance of an X-long strings of hits by a significant amount.

Now with dim returns, you're never going to get enough avoidance to rely on being safe from a string of even 4 hits in a row. Because of this, EH gearing really has taken over. Although avoidance is not bad specifically because of DR, the fact that you can't realistically reach 70% avoidance, coupled with the fact that many bosses will two-shot you in the absence of heals, means you can't gear that way.

Satorri
06-30-2009, 10:29 AM
>.> skim doesn't equal read apparently.

At 60% avoidance (which is not terribly hard to reach), your chance of being hit 3 times in a row is only 6%.

I think that's the point here, effective health always has its stalwart proponents, though some of them think it's because avoidance is a poor investment.

GravityDK
06-30-2009, 12:11 PM
At 60% avoidance (which is not terribly hard to reach), your chance of being hit 3 times in a row is only 6%.


Update.
I was curious how much HP you gain in % from a gem relative to how much you HP you already have. Same for how much dodge you gain relative to what you already have.

Here's the spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rg5mNq-6NUh97NIyJqggNVg)showing workings (you can put your own figures in), and check my workings.

For me, a 24 stam gem gains me 0.79% health (using 3.2 DK mechanics).
A 16 dodge gem provides a relative gain of 1.07% dodge (ie. I go from 26.17 to 26.45, which is a 1.07% gain).

BUT how much benefit does that give me to avoiding three hits in a row, if I swapped 3 stam gems for 3 dodge gems?
Only 0.55% less likely to have three hits (I'd get 9.94% chance with dodge gems, compared to 10.49%).

Pretty crap really. Does make avoidance talents even more worthwhile though, since gemming for dodge still doesn't look great to me.

Forklift
06-30-2009, 02:20 PM
Satorri, 60% avoidance is more than I have raid buffed (Rawr says 58.5%), and a 6.4% chance of something really bad happening is completely unacceptable. Would you like to have a 6.4% chance of being crit?

Even if you gear/gem for avoidance, you can't get past about 67% and still have respectable EH stats. You start to drop below 40k raid buffed if you want to get higher--even sacrificing all that EH, you still get a 3.6% chance of a string of 3 hits. Now that you've reduced your stam from 48k to 40k, you're probably going to die in those 3 hits, which will still happen unacceptably often.

Like I said, in TBC you could stack avoidance to like 80% pre-Radiance, and even on Brutallus, the hardest hitting boss, he'd only hit for 7k MH and 3.5k OH, when tanks had 22k+ life. You didn't have Vezax hitting you for 60% of your life each swing. You didn't have Patchwerk hatefulling for 70% of your OTs' life bars every second. Even Hodir's individual hits hit really hard, over 20k apiece. You simply can't rely on avoidance preventing X-hit long strings--because the X required to survive has decreased, yet actual reachable levels of avoidance makes those Xs impossible to prevent.

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 02:26 PM
For me, a 24 stam gem gains me 0.79% health (using 3.2 DK mechanics).
A 16 dodge gem gains me 1.07% dodge (ie. I go from 26.17 to 26.45, which is a 1.07% gain).

I am curious what you mean by this phrase. How does 16 dodge conver to 1.07% dodge.

Are you talking about referring your time to live?

GravityDK
06-30-2009, 02:36 PM
I'm talking about the relative gain "(ie. I go from 26.17 to 26.45, which is a 1.07% gain)."
I slightly updated my post to make that more clear.

Kazeyonoma
06-30-2009, 02:36 PM
he's talking about % before / % after gains.

so like he had 26.17 dodge, then he gemmed 16 dodge, and his dodge went to 26.45 that's a .28% increase

.28 / 26.17 = .010699 or 1.07% gain.

Tarigar
06-30-2009, 02:42 PM
I guess my confusion began where he went from comparing a health gem to a dodge gem with no tie from what it can see... but it could be my brain is hurting since I worked till 3:30 am and was back at 9 am.

Nadir_
06-30-2009, 02:50 PM
A downside to avoidance stacking that we don't always talk about is the nature of main tank healing in WoW. Basically, it's a preemptive spam fest. Healers almost constantly have a heal in the pipe for a tank at 100% HP, especially in fights where 2-3 shots are guaranteed to happen. I believe you're going to get far more out EH until healers have to conserve their mana and heal reactively. More fights need to be like Vezax hard mode when it comes to how healers manage their mana.

Splug
07-01-2009, 03:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, does this change our line of thinking in terms of gearing/geming at this point? Or is it still Effective Health is king until you are farming Algalon kind of stuff?I doubt it. Nadir's post on page two sums it up well:

A downside to avoidance stacking that we don't always talk about is the nature of main tank healing in WoW. Basically, it's a preemptive spam fest. Healers almost constantly have a heal in the pipe for a tank at 100% HP, especially in fights where 2-3 shots are guaranteed to happen. I believe you're going to get far more out EH until healers have to conserve their mana and heal reactively. More fights need to be like Vezax hard mode when it comes to how healers manage their mana.Until holy paladins can be run dry of mana, or at least damage is dealt in finer levels of granularity, avoidance is subpar. As long as tank healing can sustain maximum throughput, and said throughput is high enough to counter the income damage throughput, the goal is simply to make the event window large enough that the coarse granularity of damage and heals do not exceed the breadth of the window. The changeover to avoidance preference is not going to come from a new viewpoint or realization of avoidance mechanics, but from a paradigm shift in the way boss damage and tank healing are administered. The Illumination and replenishment changes in 3.2, as well as new raid content, may provide that; we shall see.

-Splug

Kerg
07-01-2009, 04:14 PM
Just out of curiosity, does this change our line of thinking in terms of gearing/geming at this point? Or is it still Effective Health is king until you are farming Algalon kind of stuff?


A downside to avoidance stacking that we don't always talk about is the nature of main tank healing in WoW. Basically, it's a preemptive spam fest. Healers almost constantly have a heal in the pipe for a tank at 100% HP, especially in fights where 2-3 shots are guaranteed to happen. I believe you're going to get far more out EH until healers have to conserve their mana and heal reactively. More fights need to be like Vezax hard mode when it comes to how healers manage their mana.


Like I said, in TBC you could stack avoidance to like 80% pre-Radiance, and even on Brutallus, the hardest hitting boss, he'd only hit for 7k MH and 3.5k OH, when tanks had 22k+ life. You didn't have Vezax hitting you for 60% of your life each swing. You didn't have Patchwerk hatefulling for 70% of your OTs' life bars every second. Even Hodir's individual hits hit really hard, over 20k apiece. You simply can't rely on avoidance preventing X-hit long strings--because the X required to survive has decreased, yet actual reachable levels of avoidance makes those Xs impossible to prevent.

When I posted this thread, I was in no way saying people should start stacking avoidance instead of EH. EH is still king. I would never consider using a 16 Dodge gem, unless we come across another fight like Bloodboil where a max avoidance set is optimal (because of the avoidable stacking debuff), and then those gems would be for a special set just for that encounter.

But I see a LOT of comments going around the forums, all the time, on the WoW forums and on here, that are just plain wrong. Comments like, "After 20%, adding more dodge is really bad because of diminishing returns." Like avoidance is okay at low levels, but then diminishing returns make it less and less useful because you get less % per rating.

No.

It's almost as bad as the old "... must get 25% Block so Shield Block will push Crushes off the table." I know you remember those. :)

My calculations and graphs were done to show that avoidance essentially DOES NOT diminish in terms of the benefit you get per rating point. More avoidance is always useful, no matter how much you currently have.

But I swear there are a lot of people out there that think that gaining 1 Stamina at the expense of 30 Dodge Rating is a good tradeoff. Haha. :)

The person above showed two good examples, Vezax and Hodir. They hit hard. The healers are healing pre-emptively, maybe canceling at the last minute if a hit is avoided, maybe not if mana is not an issue.

But in both of those fights, there are also bad things hitting the healers and forcing them to move. Shadow Crashes and Mark of the Faceless in the Vezax fight. Blue runes on the ground in the Hodir fight. Maybe 2-3 healers assigned to you have to move at the same time. If so, there may be a delay in healing reaching you. You get hit for 20,000, then 20,000, then 20,000 again... if all your healers are moving at once or are slow reacting, or whatever... if you avoid one of those 3 hits, you live, if not, you die. That's where avoidance is still beneficial.

So continue stacking EH. It's more reliable. It's necessary for hard-hitting bosses if you want to reliably beat the encounter.

But don't entirely ignore avoidance. Maybe use some 8Dodge/12Stam or 8Def/12Stam gems to pick up some socket bonuses.

Besides, most of the time when you are making a decision on gear, you're not trading avoidance for stamina or armor anyway. You're usually deciding between avoidance or threat stats, Expertise, Block Value, or Hit vs. Defense, Dodge or Parry. If you're not having trouble holding threat, go for more avoidance, IMO. The Ulduar crafted belt and boots are good examples. Tons of avoidance on those pieces, in addition to high EH. They are great pieces. And adding more avoidance is never bad, and its benefit does not diminish.

Forklift
07-01-2009, 08:16 PM
Kerg, absolutely. The conventional wisdom that avoidance diminishes to near-uselessness or even just inferiority as you get more of it is wrong. Each avoidance stat gets better the more of the other you have, and gives you just as much benefit the more of itself you have.

The problem is, of course, it's not all that great to begin with.

(Although I disagree--we're often choosing between avoidance and stam. Socket bonuses are the biggest example: would you trade 6 stam for 8 defense? What about 3 stam for 6 dodge? Also you choose between armor and avoidance often, rings, Saronite Plated legs, etc.)

jere
07-01-2009, 08:34 PM
Yep. I think people just have a hard time with absolute versus relative values when it comes to stuff like this. The DR only applies to the absolute value, but when you look at the relative value, you see you got a nice increase, regardless of the DR on the absolute.

Kerg
07-01-2009, 09:08 PM
(Although I disagree--we're often choosing between avoidance and stam. Socket bonuses are the biggest example: would you trade 6 stam for 8 defense? What about 3 stam for 6 dodge? Also you choose between armor and avoidance often, rings, Saronite Plated legs, etc.)

Yeah, I agree, gems are the biggest example.

But on the 8 armor slots, usually same level gear has the same armor (Saronite Plate Leggings being the exception), and roughly similar stamina. Most of them have defense, too, in similar quantities. The main differing factor on those pieces (and those are by far the highest stat pieces) is usually they pick 3 of the following stats: Dodge, Parry, Block Rating (lawl), Block Value, Expertise, or Hit. That's what I was referring to.

For rings, cloaks, and necks there are a handful of high armor pieces so you can trade one of the above for more armor, which is an EH vs. avoidance choice. Stamina on those pieces is fairly similar, though.

So I still say the majority of the time when you're talking about trading bulk stats, it's threat vs. avoidance, not EH vs. avoidance. And I see people stacking threat stats through the roof at the expense of avoidance (maybe because they believe avoidance is gimp due to diminishing returns), when in all of WotLK threat is a joke in all but 2-3 fights, Vezax, Hodir, and maybe Malygos, and that is due to the hyper buffs that the dps gets in those encounters. For the rest of the fights, there are a lot of wasted threat stats people are stacking that would be better used for avoidance, IMO.

If you're not close to getting threat pulled off of you, more threat stats are 100% useless. And even in fights where it is, it's often easy to solve that problem by telling your hunters/rogues to throw you some misdirects/tricks. Easier than telling your healers to play better. :) At least that has been my experience...

Here is my armory if anyone is interested in how I gear...

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet+Crusade&n=Kerg)

I doubt anyone would call me an avoidance tank. :) But I do usually go for the gem bonuses with Regals/Endurings if I can't cheat out of it with a JC gem (won't be possible in 3.2).

Satorri
07-02-2009, 05:50 AM
While I disagree with using it as justification that EH is somehow better, I think Nadir's point is a very important one.

I took a couple of holy pallies to a 10m Vezax, they hadn't done it before. You become immediately aware just how much holy pallies do NOT have to be remotely careful with their mana to be most effective. Blizz is making a big move to fix that (halving Illumination), I hope it does some of the trick. Having been a healer and a tank, loving both, and being a game mechanic nut and strategist, it pains me that the most effective Holy Pally method is to spam to the tune of 60-80% overhealing.

All said, I trust to Blizz. They don't always get things just right the first time (who does?) but they're always trying to course correct in a good direction, and more often than not they do so in a pretty careful way.

PS PEESE BLIZZ DON'T TAKE ALL MY HEALTH!! TAKE ALL THE ARMOR YOU WANT, BUT SPARE MY HEALTH!

>ehem< 'scuse me

Kazeyonoma
07-02-2009, 09:47 AM
I think the core situation here then is... the OP is preaching to the choir.

The people who are most engaged in this thread, already understand that the DR on avoidance wasn't to make avoidance useless, but to make it scale more linearly as you got more of it (like armor does, although not exactly on the same curve). The people you're trying to clarify this for, will hopefully see this and understand the discussion at hand, and not just look at it at face value and say "Well, Kerg said I should stack avoidance because avoidance isn't terrible after all!"

Everything that is done for our specific classes always has to be UNDERSTOOD before doing it. Even EH stacking. It's just easier for the common player to say "SO DO I STACK STAM OR DODGE?" and get a 1 line answer. That's where the underlying problem is, not the OP, the discussion goers, or probably the majority of the tankspot community.

Transfel
07-02-2009, 11:15 AM
>.> skim doesn't equal read apparently.

At 60% avoidance (which is not terribly hard to reach), your chance of being hit 3 times in a row is only 6%.

I think that's the point here, effective health always has its stalwart proponents, though some of them think it's because avoidance is a poor investment.

Not to be rude, but I would like to see a warrior tank with 60% avoidance.

Also, assuming you can reach 60% avoidance, 6% chance to get hit 3 times in a row means that on a boss fight it is very likely to happen. Let's just use an imaginary boss that hits for an average speed of 2.00 after calculating in parry haste and thunderclap. Let's say he takes about 3 minutes to DPS down. That's a total of 90 swings, and we'll separate that into 3 swing segments. That means 30 3-swing segments, and a 6% chance for one of those to be a 3-HIT segment. That means at least twice, almost guaranteed by the percentages, you will get hit with a 3-hit streak.

Now, if you have geared for avoidance so that you manage to somehow reach 60%, you're very likely going to have very low EH which means that this inevitable 3-hit streak will kill you, or bring you dangerously low.

Moral of the story is that a healthy balance is necessary. It's tough to focus purely on EH because your hitpoints (as a warrior) will never be high enough to rely on exclusively, and it's tough to focus purely on avoidance because that will never be enough to rely on either.

Going back to the original post, what he said is all true about the 1% at 50% is more like 2%, but it doesn't really mean much because of the fact that you really aren't going to reach much higher than say 55%.

I am speaking from a prot warrior standpoint of course. I won't get into how druids can pull off way more EH/avoidance...

Tarigar
07-02-2009, 11:18 AM
Not to be rude, but I would like to see a warrior tank with 60% avoidance.

If you include the bosses chances to have you dodge/parry/miss his attacks then yes it is done. I am running close to 70% avoidance with those numbers.

Porcell
07-02-2009, 04:27 PM
If you include the bosses chances to have you dodge/parry/miss his attacks then yes it is done. I am running close to 70% avoidance with those numbers.

Not sure if you aren't in the right gear on your armory or not, but I don't see how 9.x miss, 26.x dodge, and 18.x parry adds up to 70%. Looks more like 55%ish avoidance.

Unbuffed I'm at a little over 57% avoidance in my standard boss tank threat gear, which might nudge a bit closer to 60% with buffs.

Molohk
07-02-2009, 05:03 PM
I have 59% unbuffed and I'm wearing mostly 213 and 219 items without gearing specifically for avoidance (it helps that I'm currently specced frost), so I'm sure you can go well beyond 60% if you gear for avoidance and you have gear from Ulduar 25.

Nadir_
07-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Not to be rude, but I would like to see a warrior tank with 60% avoidance.


60% raid buffed sounds about right for a well geared Ulduar 25 plate tank.

If a tank has 70% avoidance, they're either misunderstanding block (it's not avoidance) or they have a dodge gem in every slot. I'm tempted to try such a setup because it can yield the lowest possible DPS taken in simulators like Rawr, but then I shy away from it once I realize that it'd cost me 10k or more HP.

Kerg
07-02-2009, 10:41 PM
Not to be rude, but I would like to see a warrior tank with 60% avoidance.

Also, assuming you can reach 60% avoidance, 6% chance to get hit 3 times in a row means that on a boss fight it is very likely to happen. Let's just use an imaginary boss that hits for an average speed of 2.00 after calculating in parry haste and thunderclap. Let's say he takes about 3 minutes to DPS down. That's a total of 90 swings, and we'll separate that into 3 swing segments. That means 30 3-swing segments, and a 6% chance for one of those to be a 3-HIT segment. That means at least twice, almost guaranteed by the percentages, you will get hit with a 3-hit streak.

Now, if you have geared for avoidance so that you manage to somehow reach 60%, you're very likely going to have very low EH which means that this inevitable 3-hit streak will kill you, or bring you dangerously low.

Moral of the story is that a healthy balance is necessary. It's tough to focus purely on EH because your hitpoints (as a warrior) will never be high enough to rely on exclusively, and it's tough to focus purely on avoidance because that will never be enough to rely on either.

Going back to the original post, what he said is all true about the 1% at 50% is more like 2%, but it doesn't really mean much because of the fact that you really aren't going to reach much higher than say 55%.

I am speaking from a prot warrior standpoint of course. I won't get into how druids can pull off way more EH/avoidance...

I think the best way to gear is for high EH, but adding avoidance wherever you can get it without sacificing too much EH for it, i.e. a few 8dodge/12stam & 8def/12stam gems here and there to pick up socket bonuses, especially stamina socket bonuses. And then from high EH pieces that also have high avoidance on them, like the crafted belt and boots from Ulduar. I run with about 56% unbuffed, with 35K hp.

But using your example of 6% chance to avoid 3 hits in a row if you have 60% avoidance... I think you also have to look at it from your healing perspective, too. As long as your healers can stand still and spam heal you without running out of mana, you're likely going to survive those 3 hits in a row anyway, provided you have good EH.

But say Vezax, for example. Healers randomly get hit with Shadow Crash and Mark of the Faceless and have to stop and run. Say you have 3 healers, and 5% of the time, you will get unlucky and 2 of your 3 healers are moving out of bad shit at once and not healing you for 3-5 sec. That's when a 3 hit in a row streak can kill you, because the single healer left can't keep you up fast enough.

But if you avoid one of those three, you live. So 5% of the time, you have a healing lapse, but 94% of those times you will avoid a 3-hit string and live through it. Due to your healthy avoidance, there is only a 5%*6% = 0.3% that both bad events will coincide, a 3-hit string during a time when healing has lapsed.

Compare that to the guy with only 50% avoidance, and his 12% chance to get a 3-hit string. In that same scenario, he has a 5%*12% = .6% chance to get 3-shotted when a lapse in healing occurs. Twice as much.

GravityDK
07-02-2009, 11:26 PM
The point is, gemming for avoidance is usually not a good return compared to stamina. Itemisation for avoidance is nice though. That what I tried to say here, a posts back (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50733-diminishing-returns-avoidance-not-really-2.html#post246888).

Satorri
07-03-2009, 06:47 AM
Gravity, no no no! Bad Gravity. =P

Did you not read the post that started all this? Avoidance is not an inferior value for survival value, nor does it become worse, it actually gets better.

I think what people are forgetting is that neither gearing for EH nor avoidance is THE way to do it. The *needed* balance between the two is dictated by a simple consideration:

Ideally, you need to have enough health to take the number of hits you will take in the time required for heals to land.

Very general I know, but I'll try some specifics. If XT hits you for 20k every 2 seconds, having 50k health and 40% avoidance means you can take 2 hits in a row without avoiding or dying. The third hit will kill you if it lands. The chances of taking a 3rd hit with 40% avoidance is about 13%, meaning without heals more than 1/10th of the time you will die. Alternately if you have 35k health and 70% avoidance, the second hit will kill you if it lands, but you only have a 9% chance to get hit twice in a row. So the latter tank actually has a slightly better chance to survive a string of hits. But then you look at what that means for healers. The tank with high health and low avoidance has a 6 second window (3 swings) to get healed back up, while the high avoidance low health tank only has a 4 second window. Note: the slowest big heals have a 2.5 sec cast time, if the healer was purely reactive healing, the tank would take the first hit, and the healer(s) could queue the big heal, and the tank would get hit again before the heal landed, so the avoidance tank would be in trouble if he fell in that 9%. Then again, if the healers are used to healing you, they likely are used to patching you up quickly or pre-cast/canceling.

These are really extreme examples. Most tanks will fall totally in the middle. Full Ulduar gear without gems or enchants one way or another will get most tanks about 50-60% avoidance and 36-40k health in raid buffs. Your gems, enchants, and trinket choices after that will constitute usually somewhere up to 5-8k health or 4-10% avoidance, at the extremes. Generally, I don't think you can really go wrong.

In the current state of things healers don't particularly care if you take steadier streams of damage and have high health, or if you take less steady damage and have slightly smaller health, they just adapt to what you bring to the table. It is more often class-skills not related to your gearing that make the difference of what class is better matched to which fight.

And as a DK, the smartest thing to gear for has everything to do with your tree. Each tree has specific synergies that scale better than the others. Blood scales best with heavy health stacking, Frost with extra armor, and Unholy with added avoidance. Will a Frost tank who stacks health over everything fail to tank well? Of course not. Will a Blood tank who stacks avoidance? Of course not. It's all tiny margins, and statistics and idealities will usually appear much bigger than the difference in practical application.


The point of this thread is simply to highlight that, contrary to the (oddly prevelant) belief, Avoidance is not a horrible, deficient value, not worth stacking. And as Kaze pointed out, most of the people discussing it here, know that. Hopefully, people who don't come along and read this to get edumacated.

Chamenas
07-06-2009, 05:42 PM
The point is, gemming for avoidance is usually not a good return compared to stamina. Itemisation for avoidance is nice though. That what I tried to say here, a posts back (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50733-diminishing-returns-avoidance-not-really-2.html#post246888).

So, Satorri's point, to your point is: Gemming for avoidance is just as good of a return if not a better return than gemming for stamina. However, due to game mechanics, stacking either without a healthy balance of the other increases your susceptibility to bad luck and dying.


At least, that's what I'm getting from all of this.

GravityDK
07-07-2009, 12:39 AM
Gravity, no no no! Bad Gravity. =P

Did you not read the post that started all this? Avoidance is not an inferior value for survival value, nor does it become worse, it actually gets better.


Heh Satorri you're cool :)

So yep I read the whole thread (checked maths on a few pages too).
But here's where I diverge a little from your summary:

I did a simulation in google spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rg5mNq-6NUh97NIyJqggNVg) (be sure you're using one by Hammerjudge or revert using version history in case it was fiddled). My summary was:


For me, a 24 stam gem gains me 0.79% health (using 3.2 DK mechanics).
A 16 dodge gem provides a relative gain of 1.07% dodge (ie. I go from 26.17 to 26.45, which is a 1.07% gain).

BUT how much benefit does that give me to avoiding three hits in a row, if I swapped 3 stam gems for 3 dodge gems?
Only 0.55% less likely to have three hits (I'd get 9.94% chance with dodge gems, compared to 10.49%).

What it showed me is this:

at the 50 to 55% avoidance level, gemming for avoidance gains you a moderate effective increase in avoidance of three-hits, and thus I'd go for stamina still
at higher avoidance, gains from avoidance gemming become awesome, I think that's around 60%+


So I'm agreeing with the theme of the thread if you're over about 60% avoidance already.

Satorri
07-07-2009, 05:59 AM
Heh, ok, but on the other side of your dodge vs health comparison, the health you lost from those gems was (3 pure health to pure dodge?) trading 72 stam (792 health) for 1% dodge.

1% more dodge is a 0.55% smaller chance of getting 3 hits in a row, for your avoidance

*but*

800 health is also far far less than a single hit in the scenario where the 3rd hit would kill you.

So neither will save your life, only give you a slightly improved chance of living, just through different means. =)

It's all a very close trade-off, and generally, I'd play to mechanics of your tree to judge which side is more valuable to you. I champion avoidance to the people who seem to think it's weak, but I stack health harder than the day is long because I'm a Blood tank and that's where I derive the most value. Conversely, Unholy would get a lot more mileage out of heavy avoidance. Frost is a middle of the road type deal. Armor is where you get most buffing but you rarely get the chance to give up much else to take more armor, so you can buff stam or avoidance as you see fit and probably make good use (interestingly avoidance diminishes the value derived from Unbreakable Armor, though it also replaces it with an equal or higher survival chunk).


I'm feeling the inspiration for another big side by side inspection, I need to take some time to rev up the napkin (o' math) holder, and get my thoughts in order. I've long just left it that health and avoidance are oranges and carrots, but I think I may be able to make some sort of a comparison, if only for my own value system.