Kerg

05-28-2009, 10:37 AM

First of all, I am usually an EH first guy. But I do value Avoidance. EH saves you from spike damage. But often the reason you take spike damage in the first place is because you get a string of 3 hits in a row from a boss, and fail to avoid at least one. So I think as you focus on high EH, you should also keep stacking avoidance as well, wherever you can pick it up, so you end up taking spike damage less often.

Anyway, that is not the topic of my thread.

My concern is that many people may be getting the perception that, because Avoidance in WotLK is now subject to diminishing returns, stacking Avoidance is bad now. Like the more they get, the worse it is to get more. I’ve seen people say that avoidance trinkets suck because after you factor in diminishing returns, the effect you get is not nearly as good as you would think. This is very flawed thinking, because what often fails to get mentioned is that, although Avoidance is subject to diminishing returns, it is also at the same time subject to significant increasing returns.

For example, when you are at 0% Avoidance, 100% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/100 = 1%. But when you are at 50% Avoidance, only 50% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/50 = 2%. Effectively, adding +1% Avoidance at 50% is worth TWICE as much as adding it at 0%.

At 75% Avoidance, adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/25 = 4%. Effectively worth 4 TIMES as much as adding it at 0%.

This is basically the reason for the WotLK Avoidance nerf, IMO. Blizzard was worried that tanks (or rogues :)) would be able to exploit the game by stacking Avoidance to ridiculous levels by popping trinkets, etc., and thus would be getting hit so infrequently it would make keeping the tank alive trivial.

Anyway, I ran some numbers based upon Satrina's formula here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html) for calculating Avoidance.

It is not a perfectly linear balancing out effect like Armor is, as Satrina's famous example way back when showed, but in my example, it still canceled out the diminishing returns effect. In fact, as you’ll see, I am still getting slightly increasing returns from adding any form of Avoidance.

I used the values currently on my gear. I added base 9.96% Dodge, 10% Parry, and 5% Miss for a naked warrior with the two +5% avoidance talents.

Agility from Gear: 44

Defense Rating from Gear: 717

Dodge Rating from Gear: 512

Parry Rating from Gear: 176

Dodge: 26.48345%

Parry: 18.13830%

Miss: 9.41599%

Total Avoidance: 54.03774%

I then calculated the Avoidance added by hybrid gems (X & 12 Stam.) at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.07505%

+8 Defense Rating: +.12693%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.14012%

+8 Parry Rating: +.11597%

Then I calculated how much Avoidance those same gems would add to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.11366%

+8 Defense Rating: +.20373%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.21216%

+8 Parry Rating: +.16952%

There you can see the Diminishing Returns effect. Adding +8 Dodge Rating to a naked warrior you get +.21216% Avoidance. Adding it to my Naxx/Ulduar gear only nets me +.14012%. So adding Dodge Rating now nets me only about 66% of the Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

HOWEVER, when I compare the Effective Avoidance gained, i.e. the % reduction in blows that will actually hit me, given my current level of Total Avoidance, the differences are MUCH MUCH smaller. And in fact, not only is there not a decreasing return, there is actually a slight increasing return.

Effective Avoidance added from those gems at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.16329%

+8 Defense Rating: +.27616%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.30486%

+8 Parry Rating: +.25232%

Effective Avoidance added from those gems to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.15147%

+8 Defense Rating: +.27150%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.28273%

+8 Parry Rating: +.22591%

As you can see, comparing Effective Avoidance, current gear vs. naked, the numbers are very close, and in fact, not only are there no diminishing returns in terms of Effective Avoidance, there are slightly increasing returns. Adding Dodge Rating now nets me about 108% of the Effective Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

Of course, I’m sure this is nothing new to the administrators of this site or those who understand how it works (and btw, I have been a big fan of this site for a while :)). But I thought I’d share my example, because there is a lot of misinformation out there, and nowhere did I find this explained clearly.

Note: If anyone wants to see my math, I can post it. And if anyone sees any flaws in my calculations, feel free to point it out so I can correct it. Thanks.

Anyway, that is not the topic of my thread.

My concern is that many people may be getting the perception that, because Avoidance in WotLK is now subject to diminishing returns, stacking Avoidance is bad now. Like the more they get, the worse it is to get more. I’ve seen people say that avoidance trinkets suck because after you factor in diminishing returns, the effect you get is not nearly as good as you would think. This is very flawed thinking, because what often fails to get mentioned is that, although Avoidance is subject to diminishing returns, it is also at the same time subject to significant increasing returns.

For example, when you are at 0% Avoidance, 100% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/100 = 1%. But when you are at 50% Avoidance, only 50% of all blows are hitting you, so adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/50 = 2%. Effectively, adding +1% Avoidance at 50% is worth TWICE as much as adding it at 0%.

At 75% Avoidance, adding +1% Avoidance reduces the chance that you avoid an incoming blow by 1/25 = 4%. Effectively worth 4 TIMES as much as adding it at 0%.

This is basically the reason for the WotLK Avoidance nerf, IMO. Blizzard was worried that tanks (or rogues :)) would be able to exploit the game by stacking Avoidance to ridiculous levels by popping trinkets, etc., and thus would be getting hit so infrequently it would make keeping the tank alive trivial.

Anyway, I ran some numbers based upon Satrina's formula here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html) for calculating Avoidance.

It is not a perfectly linear balancing out effect like Armor is, as Satrina's famous example way back when showed, but in my example, it still canceled out the diminishing returns effect. In fact, as you’ll see, I am still getting slightly increasing returns from adding any form of Avoidance.

I used the values currently on my gear. I added base 9.96% Dodge, 10% Parry, and 5% Miss for a naked warrior with the two +5% avoidance talents.

Agility from Gear: 44

Defense Rating from Gear: 717

Dodge Rating from Gear: 512

Parry Rating from Gear: 176

Dodge: 26.48345%

Parry: 18.13830%

Miss: 9.41599%

Total Avoidance: 54.03774%

I then calculated the Avoidance added by hybrid gems (X & 12 Stam.) at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.07505%

+8 Defense Rating: +.12693%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.14012%

+8 Parry Rating: +.11597%

Then I calculated how much Avoidance those same gems would add to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.11366%

+8 Defense Rating: +.20373%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.21216%

+8 Parry Rating: +.16952%

There you can see the Diminishing Returns effect. Adding +8 Dodge Rating to a naked warrior you get +.21216% Avoidance. Adding it to my Naxx/Ulduar gear only nets me +.14012%. So adding Dodge Rating now nets me only about 66% of the Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

HOWEVER, when I compare the Effective Avoidance gained, i.e. the % reduction in blows that will actually hit me, given my current level of Total Avoidance, the differences are MUCH MUCH smaller. And in fact, not only is there not a decreasing return, there is actually a slight increasing return.

Effective Avoidance added from those gems at my current gear level (54.03774% Total Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.16329%

+8 Defense Rating: +.27616%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.30486%

+8 Parry Rating: +.25232%

Effective Avoidance added from those gems to a naked warrior (24.96000% Avoidance)...

+8 Agility: +.15147%

+8 Defense Rating: +.27150%

+8 Dodge Rating: +.28273%

+8 Parry Rating: +.22591%

As you can see, comparing Effective Avoidance, current gear vs. naked, the numbers are very close, and in fact, not only are there no diminishing returns in terms of Effective Avoidance, there are slightly increasing returns. Adding Dodge Rating now nets me about 108% of the Effective Avoidance I got from my first Dodge Rating pieces added when naked.

Of course, I’m sure this is nothing new to the administrators of this site or those who understand how it works (and btw, I have been a big fan of this site for a while :)). But I thought I’d share my example, because there is a lot of misinformation out there, and nowhere did I find this explained clearly.

Note: If anyone wants to see my math, I can post it. And if anyone sees any flaws in my calculations, feel free to point it out so I can correct it. Thanks.