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Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:26 PM
So, there has been a fair amount of talking about the classes lately, and their relative strengths and values since Blizz actually opened the doors to class/spec quasi-equality among tanks. The kindly moderators here at TankSpot opened the doors to constructive discussions, revoking the previous restriction on class comparison, in the interest of helping. The one requested value that I ask people continue to respect is: this is for the sake of constructive discussion only, please refrain from baseless arguments or superlative "X is so much better than Y."

I'm going to be reproducing some of my explorations from another thread that were buried under a lot of other material and have been requested as their own stand alone thread. If the moderators see fit this can be removed or relocated, but I'll try to continue on with my work here outside of the other diversions.

As a short preface, I think this is valuable edification for tanks to see some of their own mechanics discussed with numbers, for tanks to see their co-tanks mechanics discussed, and for the sake of recognizing the strengths of each tanks for the sake of your raids to best match the tools you have to the needs of the raid instance.

And as my universal disclaimer: in almost all matters the variation of the player's skills and use of their abilities, and the nuances of a living breathing raid encounter will always outweigh the tiny details of class abilities and generalized simulations.

This thread is for the sake of discussion about how each of the 6 principle tank classes work (Prot Warriors, Prot Paladins, Feral Druid Bears, Blood DKs, Frost DKs, and Unholy DKs). Please forgive that this will not always be straight to the point as much of my work is freeform and not pre-plotted. I have a tendency to discover what is important as I work it out so my methods tend to steer themselves.

Feel free to read and comment, but please keep input constructive and coherent, and whenever possible real numbers and stats are appreciated.


Thanks for reading!
Satorri

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:27 PM
I think it is worthwhile to discuss and educate the community about the capabilities and skill sets of each tank class/spec. That said your method is cursory, subjective, and very much reductionist.

So, rather than starting with what you think each tank is good at while admitting you don't know more than half the options well at all, why don't we compile how each class works and what tools they have?

There are 6 tank class/specs, mind you, suitable for heavy end-game tanking:
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin
Bear-oriented Feral Druid
Blood Death Knight
Frost Death Knight
Unholy Death Knight

I make a point to separate the DK specs because each one operates very differently, has it's own strengths and weakness, and even it's own tanking tools and CDs.

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If you want to compare important tanking factors there are many items and some of the class specs work in particularly unique ways. Here's a very brief summary in terms of survival:

Warriors = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/parry/block. Warriors get 10% dmg reduction just from being in defensive stance. They can get 10% more armor from gear, 5% dodge, 5% parry, and 5% block directly from talents, along with +30% block value. They have a 30% chance to crit-block for double their normal block value. They get +6% to Strength, +6% to Stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. Against magic they get 6% spell dmg reduction and can get improved Spell Deflection (normal version can reflect a single spell cast on 10 sec CD, improved it can reflect from the four closest party members and reduces your chance to be hit with spells by 4%). Warriors get a few different CDs.
Shield Block = 100% block chance for 10 sec, with double the base block value, on a 1 min CD, talentable down to 40 sec CD.
Shield Wall = 60% less damage taken for 12 sec on 5 min CD. Talents can reduce this to 4 min CD (glyph commonly used can reduce the CD by 2 min more but reduces it to 40% dmg reduction).
Last Stand = talented this increases the warrior's health by 30% for 20 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed it is only a 2 min CD.

Additional special skills, warriors can intervene a target which will reduce their threat by 10% and take the next melee/ranged attack instead of the target on a 30 sec CD. Warrior's method of applying the de-hasting melee debuff to targets is improved Tclap which hits unlimited targets in a 10 yrd range (*fact check please*). Warriors can provide AP reducing shout (as can Lock's curse, Hunter pet special, and Bears) and health increasing shout (as can Lock demon and dps warriors).

Paladins = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/block/parry. Paladins rely on Righteous Fury for threat buffing, which talented reduces all damage taken by 6%. They get 3% additional reduction in all damage taken by another talent, and when their health is below 35% health they take 30% less damage from everything on top of those. They get 6% less spell damage taken from a separate talent, this represents the only specific anti-magic ability. They get +15% strength, +14% stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. They also receive the standard 5% dodge and parry, +30% block value, and +10% armor from gear. From talents they have a 10% chance on being hit to increase their chance to block by 30% for 10 sec or 5 blocks, and can increase all healing effects on themselves by 5%. For CDs:
Holy Shield = +30% chance to block for 10 sec or 8 blocks on 8 sec CD.
Divine Plea = with one of the fancy new glyphs this not-survival move becomes an additional survival factor reducing all damage by 3%. Combined with Guarded By the Light, this can be up 100% of the time in any single fight.
Divine Protection = 50% all damage reduction for 12 sec, 3 min CD. With prot talents it is reduced to a 2 min CD.
Lay on Hands = gives a target (tank possibly) an amount of health equal to the pallies' max health (for the tank restores them to full health, can crit >.>) and a chunk of mana. 20 min CD can be talented down to 16 min which also makes it buff the targets armor by 25% for 15 sec, and can be glyphed to trim 5 more minutes off the CD to a minimum of 11 min CD fully buffed.

Pallies can Hand of Protection to make a target immune to physical damage for 10 seconds on a 5 min CD. They can Hand of Salvation to reduce friendlies' threat on a 2 min CD. They can also hand of Sacrifice to take 30% of the damage for the target until it's transferred the tank's full health. A prot tank's aura's increase healing effects on everyone affected by 6%, though this is exclusive with Resto druid's tree aura. Pallies can increase party/raid members' fire, frost, or shadow resists by 130, or armor by 1200 (1800 with prot talents), though these can be offered by any pally in the raid. Prot pallies can provide Blessing of Sanctuary which reduces all damage taken by 3%, though that buff can be provided to other tanks in the same raid with a prot pally and it does not stack with a warrior's vigilance or a Disc Priest's Renewed Hope. Judgement and Seal of Light can restore health to the tank, though this too can be provided by other pallies in the raid. Pally's melee de-hasting ability is applied with their judgment so it is functionally single target only.

Druid = Druids wear leather gear and get a big armor buff from being a bear (370%, fully talented it is 588%). Druids cannot parry or block, only dodge. In addition to the armor buff, bear form increases the druid's stamina by 25%. Talents give the bear +10% armor from gear, +10 Expertise, +10% dodge, +16% stamina, +6% Strength, +6% Agility, and 6% reduced chance to be crit. Bears get an ability called Savage Defense which is essentially a shield block type ability. When they crit they get a damage shield equal to 25% of their AP (functionally block chance = crit chance and block value = 25% of AP). This works out a bit different than block since it does not feature in the hit table, instead it is simply saved for the next hit (block is only possible if the strike isn't a miss/dodge/parry, but if you DO dodge, it doesn't store up that block that could've been for the next swing), bears do not have talents to buff this ability like warriors and pallies can buff their shield block ability. Bear CDs are as follows:
Barkskin = Bear's answer to the other class's protection abilities, this reduces all dmg taken by 20% for 12 sec, on a 1 min CD.
Frenzied Rejeneration = the bear converts up to 10 rage per second into health at a rate of 0.3% total health per point. Lasts 10 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this also increases all healing effects on the druid by 20%. Note, this ability consumes rage so it is at the expense of dmg threat.
Survival Instincts = +30% health for 20 seconds on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this becomes +45% health.

Bears have Leader of the Pack that will allow them to regen 4% of their max health every time they crit, but this is graned raid wide by any feral druid in the party/raid. Bears provide the AP reducing ability that warriors do. The bear de-hasting debuff is applied by maul and mangle, so it is on restricted numbers of targets. Since you can only hit 1-3 targets at a time and requires two hits to stack it and one to maintain after that, it is not easy to maintain it on pulls with many targets.

Death Knights (general) = DKs wear plate armor with no shield. They can dodge and parry, but not block. All DKs normally will take +15% armor from gear, +5% dodge, and 5% all dmg reduction that will be functionally up 95-100% of the time (requires both Blood runes on CD once every 10 sec). Specific additional details depend on tree. Frost Presence increases the DK's armor by 80% and health by 10%. DK's get 25% of their Strength as parry rating which buffs their parry chance by a noticeable amount (~4-7% depending on gear at 80). All DKs share 2 main survival CDs:
Icebound Fortitude = 20% dmg reduction buffed by defense (~35% at 540 def) for 12 sec on a 1 min CD.
Anti-magic Shell = reduces all magic damage by 75% for 5 sec or until it absorbs 50% of the DK's total health.

Death Knights' melee de-hasting ability is applied with Frost Fever which is easily maintained on all targets in range and lasts 15-21 sec per application depending on talents.

Blood = from the blood tree you can get +8% Strength, +6% Stamina, and +6 expertise. Also one talent will give the DK a chance equal to his parry chance to take 45% less damage from direct damage spells (as opposed to periodic spell dmg). Another reduces the damage of any hit that takes the tank below 35% health by 15% on a 15 sec hidden CD (only procs on hits larger than 5% of total health). Otherwise Blood relies heavily on self-healing to offset damage. 3 CDs, 0-2 passive effects, and one common ability are used for this. The CDs are:
Vampiric Blood = increases the DK's total health by 15% and increases all healing effects on him by 35% for 20 sec (30 sec with glyph). 2 min CD.
Mark of Blood = for 20 seconds or 20 hits, the enemy target affected heals who they damage for 4% of their total health. This heal triggers immediately after the damage like Earth Shield and Prayer of Mending so it won't overheal unless the hit is smaller than 4% and can be used to support other tanks and raid healing.
Rune Tap = restores 10% of the tanks total health on a 1 min CD. Talented this becomes 13/16/20% of total health on a 50/40/30 sec CD (glyphed 22% on the tank and 10% to everyone else in the party).
DK's have Death Strike which restores 5% of their health per disease on the target which will heal for 50% more (next patch) for a Blood DK. Two less common talents allow the DK to regenerate 4% of his damage done as health while tanking, and another can proc Blood Worms to heal the tank for small amounts as they do damage.

Frost = from the Frost tree you can get +3% miss, +2% all dmg reduction, and 5 expertise. A special talent allows you a 30% chance when taking magic damage to get 50 resistance to that school of magic for 18 seconds, and that can stack up to 3 times and multiple types can be applied at the same time on individual timers (i.e. fire, frost, nature, arcane, etc). Frost buffs the duration of Icebound Fortitude up to 18 seconds, and has one CD only that it adds to the mix:
Unbreakable Armor = all damage taken is reduced by a value equal to 5% of the DK's armor (~1k-1.6k depending on gear, glyph increases that value by 20%) for 20 sec on a 2 min CD.
Frost DK's have access to Death Strike though it receives no buffing from Frost and is not the preferred threat tool for the cost.

Unholy = from the Unholy tree, you can get 6% magic damage reduction, buffs AMS to reduce magic damage by 100%, and adds 2 CDs to improve survival:
Anti-Magic Zone = this zone absorbs 75% of magic damage taken by all inside for 10 seconds up to a maximum buffed by AP (14-20k total dmg but will reduce the full 75% on every target from a single burst even if it surpasses the total allowance).
Bone Shield = this applies 4 charges (6 glyphed). So long as at least one charge remains the DK takes 20% less damage from everything. Each time the DK takes damage a charge is consumed, though charges have a hidden CD (~2 sec). Shield lasts 5 min otherwise and has a 2 min CD.
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Let's look at some passive buffed highlights:
Warriors = +6% Str, +6 Expertise, +6% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block, +30% block value. 10% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmge reduction. 30% chance for double value block.

Pallies = +15% Str, +6 Expertise, +14% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +30% block value. 9% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmg reduction, 10% chance per hit to get +30% block chance for 10 sec. +5% heals on self.

Bears = -6% chance to be crit, +6% Str, +6% Agi, +10 Expertise, +25/16% Stam (+45% combined), +10% armor from gear, +588% armor from gear, +10% dodge. Crits create a damage shield equal to 25% of the bear's AP to act as a physical damage shield.

Blood DKs = +6% Str, +6 Exp, +6% Stam, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge, 25% of Str as Parry rating. 5% all damage reduction with an additional maintained 5% all damage reduction. Chance equal to parry chance to reduce direct spell damage by 45%. Hits that take you below 35% are reduced by 15% on a 15 sec CD. Self-heals can be substantial and 'passive'.

Frost DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +3% miss, +5% dodge. 7% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained. 30% chance on spell dmg taken to stack 50 resistance to that school for 18 sec, can stack up to 3 times.

Unholy DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge. 5% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained, 6% magic reduction.


Beyond the passives, all the class/specs get a big dmg reducer:
Warriors = 60% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 5 min CD (talented -1 min to CD, glyphed becomes 40% dmg reduction and -2 min to CD)
Pallies = 50% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 2 min CD.
Blood/Unholy DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD.
Frost DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 18 sec, 1 min CD.
Bear = 20% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD (glyph affects pvp only reducing chance to be crit further while it's up)

Warriors and Pallies get very short CD abilities that buff their survival well:
Warriors get guaranteed big blocks for 10 sec every 40, 25% uptime used on CD.
Pallies get much 30% higher block chance and blocks do reflective damage, 100% uptime on a single target, more targets reduce the uptime.

Bears, Warriors, and Blood DKs get a big activatable health buff. Bears' is +45% for 20 sec every 3 min. Warriors' is 30% for 20 sec every 3(2) min. Blood DKs' is +15% health for 20(30) sec every 2 min and comes with a +35% all healing buff.

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Now, using 8.5 tanking gear sets (only gear not trinkets, rings, necks, or weapons) to get an idea about how passive multipliers break down for mitigation and health:

Bears
Armor = 2400 * 1.10 * 6.25 = 16503 (+482 agi = +964 armor)
Stam = 530 * 1.16 * 1.25 = 769 = 7505 health
*7 non-meta sockets (3/2/2 RYB)

Warriors
Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
Stam = 671 * 1.06 = 711 = 6934 health
*7 non-meta sockets (0/3/4)

Paladins
Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
Stam = 671 * 1.14 = 765 = 7469 health
*7 non-meta sockets (4/2/1)

Death Knights
Armor = 9538 * 1.15 * 1.80 = 19744 (note: DKs cannot get shields)
Blood Stam = 697 * 1.06 = 739 = 7208 health *1.10 = 7929 health
Frost/Unholy Stam = 697 = 6790 health *1.10 = 7469 health
*7 non-meta sockets (2/1/4)

Armor Discussion
Shields at this level are just shy of 8k armor, so bears actually end up slightly the lowest for armor from gear even though they will have much more agility and therefore armor than the plate wearers will, and will likely be able to get more armor buffing on itemization since they don't need defense and they get a lot of value from Agi which will be distinctly better buffed for them in raids. DK's bonuses put them slightly ahead of the others in total armor value thanks to the multipliers, though they do not have a block-type mitigation effect like the other 3 tank classes.

Health Discussion
Warriors get the least straight health from stamina, but they also rely on it the least in their survival mechanics. Pallies, Bears, and Frost/Unholy DKs have about the same from core pieces, but again, Bears will likely pick up more from additional pieces since their multipliers are significantly larger than the other classes. Pallies gravitate towards stamina because it works well with Ardent Defender and Touched by the Light (30% of Stam = Spellpower for a big threat buff), so they will likely pick up stamina items the same way, but they won't get quite as much mileage as bears will. Blood DKs get the most from core gear by a small margin, and will get ever so slightly higher value for stam stacking than Pallies, though Bears multipliers will still out-pace them by a decent margin. Blood DKs of all the class/specs arguably get the most out of stam stacking since they have 4 self-healing abilities they rely on to functionally mitigate damage that scale on total health, and Blood DK's are unique in the tanking kingdom for that reliance on self-heals. I haven't mentioned it previously, but DKs can also use Rune of Stoneskin Gargoyle which will increase their stam by another 2%.
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Avoidance is hard to put a finger on as it diminishes and there are a variety of different non-set pieces that vary in value greatly for what they buff. Let me see what I can pull from core gear values, as we can say that anyone could get the other non-set pieces regardless of class/spec (though again, different classes value stats differently). I'll include Block % on this list, though they aren't avoidance they're easier to track here. Also, still speaking passively not factoring CDs.

Bears
Def Rating = 0
Dodge Rating = 0
Agi = 455 (note: druid weapons will likely also have high Agi values)
*+10% dodge
*damage shield is based on crit and AP for frequency and intensity respectively

Warriors
Def Rating = 257
Dodge Rating = 217
Parry Rating = 60
Block Rating = 51 = 3.11%
Block Value = 166 + (443 Str / 2) = 388
*+5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block
*30% chance block value will double on block

Paladins
Def Rating = 268
Dodge Rating = 153
Parry Rating = 147
Block Rating = 80 = 4.88%
Block Value = 136 + (491 Str / 2) = 382
*+5% dodge, +5% parry
*10% chance on hit to +30% block

Death Knights
Def Rating = 294
Dodge Rating = 165
Parry Rating = 227 + (390 Str * 0.25) = 325
*all DKs = +5% dodge
*Frost +3% miss
*all DKs have access to personal runes that add avoidance/Def skill but don't effect the diminishing returns, this is +4% parry or +25 def skill (=1% miss, 1% dodge, 1% parry) with +2% stam.

Obviously the formulae are all rather messy and depend on what non-set pieces you are using so you know how diminishing returns break down. At a glimpse though we can tell that Warriors have about 30% more dodge on their core pieces, DK's will have 5 times the warrior's and over double the pally's parry rating, and the DK will have the most dodge/parry buffing from Def. DK's get the least % from talents but will get a nice buff from their rune (almost making up for that). Bears will rely very heavily on their Agility, though they match the Warriors and Pallies for raw avoidance from talents. In the wash, and based on conversations with tanks of other classes, I'd expect the avoidance values to go roughly in this order for similar gearing and gem/chant focus:
DK > Bear > Warrior/Paladin
Though I also expect the spread from highest to lowest to only be on the order of 4-8% at most.
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The last comparison I'll touch on today is cooldowns. Each class/spec has their own unique tools to use through adversity. Again we'll disregard trinkets since these could/should be universally attainable and different classes will like different trinkets for their own reasons.

Obviously, Bears have the least survival CDs, most of their CDs are threat focused. Barkskin is the smallest of the protection abilities, but it is on a fast timer like DKs. Survival Instincts gives them a significant health jump, and bears are already primed to have the largest health pools by a margin. Bears get the ability to regenerate a reasonably large amount of their health on a moderately long CD. Frenzied Regen is worth 3% max health, per second, for a total of 30% max health over 10 seconds in the best case. Glyphed this value alone increases to 36% plus it buffs other incoming heals. The 3 min CD leaves this as more of a once or twice per big epic boss fight. Bears are for all intents and purposes, designed to have a higher survival baseline before CDs.

Paladins also sport a pretty small number of CDs but they are very potent. Their protection skill, Divine Protection, is solid at 50% and a 2 min CD, and glyphed they can take a voluntary hit to their own threat to get another 20% damage reduction for 10 sec on a 2 min CD with Hand of Salvation, though this has it's own risks of course. Holy Shield as an always up ability is very powerful against one or two targets as it is functionally up 100%. Against very large pulls it won't last quite as long though it is not an extreme reduction. Like Shield Block for Warriors this value increases noticeably against faster swings with smaller individual hits. Lay on Hands is about as collosal a save as you can get, but it is the only remaining 'tank' ability on such a long CD. It's amazing the moment you need it, but it can't be used casually.

Warriors have versatile CDs that can suit a variety of needs. The Warrior protection CD, Shield Wall, is the biggest among the tanks, even though glyphed it matches Pallies, unglyphed it is a HUGE value but only usable half as often. Shield Block has a reasonably high coverage at 25% for ensuring that anything not avoided is blocked, making warriors pretty regularly capable of taking less physical damage particularly through fast swinging bosses or lots of small hits. Spell Reflection is a powerful ability in certain situations even if the target is immune to the effect being reflected.

DK's originally were the CD tanking class. Smart rotation of CDs for coverage was essential as they would otherwise take noticeably more damage than any other tank. Things have changed and times have shifted. DK's still have very useful CDs but they are far less essential. IBF rings in as the most pivotal core ability. Compared to the equivolant talents for Pallies and Warriors it is very powerful thanks to its 1 min CD, but you'll find looking over the values that this is to make up for the wealth of other survival tools that the other classes have, which is most notably the ability to block. Each tree has its own system of CDs that it relies on. Frost is by far the least CD dependent, though it sports a longer duration IBF and Unbreakable Armor it will take less damage without cooldowns. Unholy relies entirely on Bone Shield for the bulk of the mitigation work, and while it works well in good gear it requires a fair amount of attentiveness to get the full value. So long as it is up Unholy is remarkably durable, and it is fantastic against large count pulls and multiple damage sources that come simultaneously. Blood, as I mentioned, is unique among the tanks as it uses self-heals to off-set damage taken. Used to their fullest these heals can actually put the Blood tank at a higher effective mitigation level than the other two specs, but that hinges heavily on the degree of the damage being taken, the skill of the tank timing the heals well, and frequent use of the additional heals. Vampiric Blood may be the single most powerful CD available in 25-man raids, as a Blood tank with a significant health pool will be able to be healed through just about anything for 30 sec.
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Threat is a completely different matter, and I'll respond tomorrow with more on that, probably.

I don't think any of the classes stands noticeably above the others, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses that match well or poorly with the different challenges available. No tank is incapable of tanking some particular scenario, and no tank is TOO good at tanking something particular, Blizz has seen to that.

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:28 PM
irst things first, I was reading through my crit from yesterday (thanks for catching some of my slips, can't believe I forgot barkskin =O) and some clear themes came out. The rough classifications might be useful to people to see not some absolute value of tanks but rather identify their strengths, their niches:

Warriors, Frost DKs = the balanced tanks. You can focus on part of their abilities to suit particular needs, but you can just as easily buff a different survival method with the same effectiveness. They may not be the top of the heap in any single method, but that they ARE versatile makes them a real tanking asset. While they can be tailored to meet more specific needs, these tanks excel at mixed paces and scales of damage, and at taking a relentless fast swing timed beating.

Bears, Blood DKs = the massive meat shields. These tanks can get the best effect from REALLY trumping up the health pool and stacking health like it's a job. If the tank is going to take big hits infrequently, this is a good tank for it.

Unholy DKs = The avoidance tank. DK's have the potential to sport the highest avoidance of any tank class, and for Unholy Knights Bone Shield plays VERY well with avoidance. The supreme avoidance tank is ideal for fights like XT or Ignis where you will take big single swings and when one of those misses the fight becomes that much easier.

Protadins = these are a little tricky within my gross generalization above. They will stack health because it is a versatile stat buffing their threat as well, they have strong shield block abilities making them great for fast attacks like the balanced tanks, though they tend to do better when you play up one of those two aspects rather than avoidance. Paladins I'd also deem the 9 lives tanks. With Lay on Hands, Ardent Defender, bubbles, and the ability for high block coverage, they can be very hard to kill and can catch themselves from the brink of death very noticeably.

These are GROSS generalizations, and there are crossovers (Bears combine the high health pool with generous avoidance and a block ability that gets saved up to play nicely with said avoidance, for example, making them also fit into the first and third categories as well).



Now the thing I wanted to touch on, far more briefly than yesterday's tirade is threat!

Tanking Threat Styles

The reason I am very reluctant to talk about threat is because that is a game not dictated as much by being smart in your setup prior to a fight and a sideline activity during the fight (note: active tanks use CDs very deliberately to survive better than the folks who just stand there and get hit), but really threat has EVERYTHING to do with the player activity. A hard working tank will out threat anyone who is slow on their toes, regardless of class, spec, and often regardless of gear (barring extreme differences). The aspect on threat that matters is not that we beat each other in threat, but that we stay ahead of the dps, that is the critical measurement of threat generation.

What I do want to focus here is on the tools the tanks use, where their strengths lie (yes Warriors and Blood DKs can tank groups they just work a little harder for it than a Pally or Unholy DK), and what assignments they are best suited for on threat demands. In general there are 4 very general threat needs in a raid environment:

1.) The Big Boss = this is the giant boss who has 200 mil health and you will be fighting for the next 10 minutes (hyperbole aside you know who I'm talking about). This fight usually has more demands of its tank on survival and all that matters is that the tank can roll ahead of the dps on the long stretch, dps can start slowly or take pauses it won't be the end of the world.

2.) The Bruiser/Nuke-site = this is the nasty single monster, add, or boss phase, that needs to be killed quickly. The longer it is up the more strained the raid will become as this mob plies its ability. Against this target you need 'snap' threat, someone who can open up with a big burst and the moves to keep ahead of a fast burn for a short period.

3.) The Crack Squad = a small group of 3-5 mobs. Usually this squad will have a bruiser and/or caster or mobs of varying concern and ability. Here the tanks will have to know the priority and communicate the order to the dps. Here, for whatever reason, you need to focus at least one or two of the mobs down first to avoid their threat. This usually requires attentive threat on one or two targets first, with support threat on the additional targets. Here the tank needs to be able to spill over on additional targets while keeping leading threat on the active target (here's an example where a good tank makes a difference as they can be building 90% on the main target 50% on the second target and better than baseline threat on the others).

4.) The Swarm! = these pulls are filled with large amounts of small mobs. Here they're all equally a nuisance and any one or two wouldn't be an issue at all, but en masse they can tear through a not-tank. Here the needs are large target-count threat without specific needed focus. If one or two come loose, it's not the end of the world or an instant one-shot, and often the tank just needs to switch to these targets to pull them back in.

Strategies on these pulls can vary, and in raids you're rarely tanking alone, but these are good examples for illustrating the relative strengths of each class.

I want to compare just the tools of each class. Please bear in mind that player use of these abilities will make all the difference and will be the defining difference between success and failure. Any class/spec can tank any of the above situations but the ease of it can be roughly determined by class/spec.

Warriors
Warriors are about as versatile with threat tools as they are with survival tools. The general tools:
Shield Slam, Devastate = these are the single target hammers that the various mechanics will support as the central mainstay of your active rotation.
Revenge = this is the mechanic that has a positive feedback with survival and makes the threat difference between being the target and not. Dodge/parry/blocks let you get a hard hitting cheap hit.
Heroic Strike = this is functionally a buffing/dumping threat element. It does not interrupt your normal move set, but can be applied additionally to convert rage build up into threat. The more abuse the tank takes the more available this ability is.
Shockwave/Cleave/Tclap = The aoe tools. Shockwave allows both a conal threat for as many people as you can group effectively, with a stun that actually supports stable positioning and a bit of mini-cc for easing the pull. Cleave is the multiple target substitute for Heroic Strike where you can pay a bit more to get a slightly smaller hit on more than just the one target. Tclap, aside from being a key debuff, allows the warrior to get a bit of snap baseline on an unlimited target count in range. Because of the CDs on Shockwave and Tclap, these abilities aren't ideal for large pull tanking, but used well they most certainly do the job.
Damage Shields = not an active move, whenever the warrior takes a hit (read: not avoids), the attacker takes damage. This is a positive buff to any number of targets, but helps form strong foundation threat on off-targets and large groups so the warrior is covered as they do the target switching dance.

Warriors, played well, are phenomenal burst tanks. Compounded with Shield Block, trinkets, sharp gearing, and Sword and Board, Shield Slam can spike almost ridiculously to set up a HUGE immediate threat lead. The other tools have very powerful feedback mechanisms as a main tank, where avoidance will buff your threat with cheap big hits of Revenge (further supporting Shield Slam), and taking hits will fuel the warrior's rage allowing more liberal use of heroic strikes. Warriors are monsters on snap threat (class 2), strong on focusing while holding off targets (class 3) and carrying bosses indefinitely (class 1), and are weakest at large counts of small mobs (class 4) though with smart use of Tclap, damage shields, strategic Shockwaves, and tabbed cleaves those pulls are pretty easily accomplished. Warriors also sport an AoE unclassified taunt that can be a clincher in an unexpected pull or if large groups start to fragment.

Bears
Bears are a very interesting tank class in that they're designed to have gear itemization like dpsers. Obviously when focusing on Bear'ing you will load in survival values like health, armor, and avoidance, but the gear will come with distinct amounts of crit, haste, and AP which most other tanks won't get so directly. Currently, only bears get the benefit of Agility itemized on their tanking gear (*cry*) as well. Bear's use the following tools for their threat:
Maul = the equivalent of the Warrior's Heroic Strike, this does not interrupt the bear's other moves but can be layered on to burn extra rage into threat. Glyphed this will hit two targets which can be veyr nice for supporting multi-target tanking as bears have no cleave (bear with me, =D).
Mangle = while buffing your and your raid's bleeds, this ability adds a nice spot of damage as well. Used with Berserk this becomes a cleave for a short period allowing the bear to set up shot on multiple targets at once.
Lacerate = a stacking bleed with bonus threat (*fact check* still there?) on application. Originally somewhat akin to a warrior's devastate in spam in the holes, but now used rather less on non-single target needs.
Swipe = this is THE aoe ability. Now thankfully for bears this is omni-directional, albeit short ranged. Swipe allows the bear to anger everything around it, and as opposed to Tclap the semi-analogous ability from warriors it does not have a CD, so in sufficient rage situations it can be used pretty heavily.

Bears can setup really powerful rolling threat on one or two targets and they can do it fast enough that you can miss that it isn't big bursty threat, per se. Bears generally have to work the hardest for aoe threat as they don't have a lot of tools for it and if mobs are carelessly scattered by quick aoe dps, it can be harder for the bear to reliably setup long term threat until they're recollected. Bears, like warriors, do sport an unclassified unlimited target-count aoe taunt. Bears excel on single targets (class 1) and small group focused threat (class 3), they are strong with bruisers (class 2) though they don't burst the same as warriors so they take a second seat in terms of quick switch snap threat, and they are slightly weaker than warriors on large groups (class 4). Given the opportunity to collect the pull well, bears can cover the swarms just fine, but if dps are careless and rush the pulls it can be a full-time job for the bear to keep it under wraps.

Paladins
Paladin's threat tools nowadays are more significantly small group oriented, but they're relatively the same with groups of 1-3. The paladin primary tools are as follows:
Judgment = this is one small burst slipped into the mix of other abilities. Often the debuff it applies is what is more important, but it is a definite threat in application when it is used.
Shield of Righteousness = single target big smash that scales nicely with the paladin's block value. This allows the Protadin to support larger burst on a single target beyond the other multi-target abilities. This supports snap threat, though not quite to the scale of Shield Slam for warriors.
Hammer of the Righteous = this hits 3 targets, not unlike cleave, though it hits rather harder than a warriors cleave for a relatively cheaper cost. This ability makes it very easy to tank 3 targets, but with careful targeting it can also be used to support better than base aggro on 5 targets at a time.
Avenger's Shield = hits 3 targets at range, slowing their movement and silencing them. This is one of the more expensive abilities but it can be very powerful in setting up pulls or for buffing threat where mana/damage or plentiful.
Consecration = this sets an aoe at the protadin's feet that ticks continuously on anyone standing on it for it's duration. This sets a solid baseline and does not require active targeting to maintain.
Exorcism = while not specifically a 'tanking' ability this is a terribly valuable ranged threat tool which can set a substatial chunk of threat on a single target, and automatically crits on undead.
Seal of ____ = seals contribute a great deal to threat, or to utility with less threat. This ranges from the Martyr/Blood which is less ideal for tanking since it hurts the paladin but does strong damage, to Vengeance/Corruption which sets stacking dots on multiple targets and buffs judgement damage per stack (and applies on each target of HotR!), to Righteousness which is just solid and consistant threat buffing. Seal of Wisdom can be used to buff mana if needed, Seal of Life for a little extra healing, or Seal of Justice, infrequently in the need of keeping mobs from running (don't know that happens in raids ever any more). Seal choice is support threat, but it adds up.
Holy Wrath = only usable on undead and demons, but this is a big aoe burst and stun. It is important when you need it, though it is expensive. As this expansion has a significant undead theme, this cannot be forgotten or discounted.
Holy Shield = the original reflective damage shield. Holy Shield will be up a significant proportion of the time and every shield block will do reflective damage. As Protadins will block a large amount of what they don't avoid this is very valuable.

Protadins, relatively speaking, have a LOT of tools, but they are fairly un-nuanced. What I mean is, you have a list of big hits and you just have to focus on the ones that suit your needs in each moment, there is little required by way of setup to do bigger hits. Protadins, it must be noted, have a very important ability in Avenging Wrath when it is used. For the duration their damage (threat) will be markably increased, this is not a common tanking ability in terms of scale, though Bears do quite well with Berserk and King of the Jungle buffed Enrage. Using the controlled bursts Paladins excel at bruisers and nuke hits (class 2), they are very strong when played well against swarms (class 4) and bosses (class 1), and they tank focused fire within groups better than average (class 3). In terms of threat, relative to the Warriors and Bears, Paladins are much stronger in all situations, though there seem to be two vital aspects to better than average pally threat. First, with all of the many tools the tank who picks the optimal tools for the situation on each CD can do better than the one who spams whichever they see first. Second, Protadins are the one tank who relies on mana. While they have strong tools to keep it coming in, Spiritual Attunement, Judge of Wisdom, BoSanc, and now rolling Divine Pleas, but should mana run low from lack of attention or bad luck, it can severely dampen the Protadin's threat for a period. This can be vulnerable in situations where mana is drained, sapped, or blocked.

Death Knights (general)
At the core, the DK class has a great many tools that it shares whether it is dpsing or tanking, so in some respects threat plays out like dpsing, but that is not quite accurate. Death Knights, regardless of spec, do rely on their diseases for damage and effect buffing. This can be used differently by different specs though. At the core are the following threat tool elements:
Icy Touch / Frost Fever = IT is a ranged shot of frost damage that applies the essential Frost Fever for a dot and melee de-hasting. This will not be much threat for Blood/Unholy, but it is better with frost, and the disease will add up when maintained and allowed to tick continually on all targets.
Plague Strike / Blood Plague = a melee range, rough equivalent to IT, this strike doesn't do too much damage, but the disease it applies is another key factor that can be setup up and allowed to roll on all targets to buff foundation threat.
Rune Strike = this is the DK's answer to Revenge for Warriors. It triggers when the DK dodges or parries. It hits for a very large amount and has bonus threat to boot. This becomes a massive feature in every spec's threat as gear improves. Most DK's macro this ability into their other moves since, like Heroic Strike and Maul it fires 'on next swing.' It is worth noting it replaces the melee swing and cannot be dodged or parried.
Death and Decay = this is a fixed aoe zone that does damage per second with bonus threat, though it comes at a high price. Unlike the pally consecration it can be targetted and dropped at range. This is a valuable tool though it is most potent for Unholy, a valuable utility for Blood though easily used more sparingly, and is least required for Frost, though it can be used to good supportive effect.
Death Coil = this consumes runic power for a decent amount of damage and can be used at range. As moves go this is a bit low on damage and is best used when at range to add a little threat and in rune blackouts (GCDs where all 6 runes are on CD). It is rarely better than a move costing runes. Frost will rarely ever use this as Frost Strike replaces is mostly (except for ranged utility). Blood's will not hit as hard though it is the only use for RP, and Unholy's hits the hardest though it is really only used as described above.
Blood Stike = this is a simple one rune hit that scales with diseases. It is used by Frost and Unholy to convert Blood runes, but is replaced in almost all situations by Heart Strike for Blood.
Blood Boil = alternative to Blood/Heart Stike this will hit an unlimited number of targets within range of the target with a burst. It hits smaller than HS on each target but the lack of limit on count makes it very valuable for large groups. It benefits from having a disease on the target, but not per disease. It hits harder for Blood and Unholy but it is not uncommon for Frost to buff aoe threat either.
Beyond these each spec will use it's own set of abilities and methodologies. There is some overlap, and mechanics are not wholey different, but identifying the spec of the DK tank your with will help you understand the flavor of their strengths and styles.

Blood
Blood moves and buffs focus on physical damage. The usual focus moves are as follows:
Heart Strike = this is the primary spam, costing 1 blood rune. It hits two targets for a pretty heavy hit, and triggers several side effects depending on the finer points of the spec. The damage is distinctly increased for each disease on the target.
Death Strike = this is a very powerful tool in the Blood Knight's arsenal for both threat and survival. In addition to a reasonable amount of damage it restores 5% (7.5% in the next patch with talents) of the DK's total health per disease. This healing threat should not be disregarded. Protadins will average 4% or so of their threat from mana gains, and Blood DKs can average upwards of 4-6% of their threat from heals.

Blood gets a relatively small contribution from disease ticks, but having them both set and maintained is key to setting a solid foundation to threat, and without two diseases on the target threat is decreased from the other moves as well. Relative to other class/specs Blood is about on par with Bears and slightly behind Warriors on large group aoe threat, though, like both, with hard work the Blood Knight can still hold threat just fine. Like bears, it does take a bit of collecting and foundation to hold well. Blood is not bursty relative to other tanking classes, but like bears it rolls very solid long term threat.

Frost
Frost relies more heavily on spell effects and procs. Frost gets a lot of benefit from Frost Fever, but the only particular value it gets from Blood Plague is for the additional dot and a bit of damage buffing on Oblit, BS, and BB when it is used. The primary Frost tools are as follows:
Howling Blast = this is an unlimited target heavy hitting frost blast. With full buffing this is a huge single hit on every target it hits, though it has an 8 sec CD. With talents the CD can be refreshed with Oblit. On aoe pulls there is no other class/spec that can burst to this degree on as many targets.
Obliterate = this is a massive single target smash and a mainstay of frost's method. It hits marginally harder than HB but only hits the one target.
Frost Strike = this melee swing hits extremely hard as assited by the fact that it is frost damage and ignores armor completely. It cannot be dodged/parried/blocked either which helps buff its total effect against bosses nicely. This does not just replace DC as an RP use, it actually makes it very valuable for a Frost tank to have more RP and use it preferentially.

Frost uses double-rune cost moves heavily and generates a lot of space for RP dumping. Among the DK specs this is the most bursty and can match a warrior for heavy burst threat. Often times though the fastest threat comes at the expense of cruising threat down the road. Even for this fast burst it is best done with Frost Fever preset. Frost DKs are very strong on target switching burst threat. Frost's threat profile is very spikey as a result of relying on single large hits over many small hits.

Unholy
Unholy's backbone is in stacking dot effects. Unholy's diseases will tick substantially harder than the other two specs, as will it's DnD. To go with that Unholy uses the following tools:
Scourge Strike = Unholy's big truck move. This will hit quite hard, and as shadow damage it ignores armor completely. Generally speaking this is a primary item to spam when possible, though it is used more to fill between other CDs than it is used preferentially to other moves.
Corpse Explosion = this uses RP to detonate a corpse (doesn't work on elementals and mechanicals, stupid Udluar >.>) doing a burst of shadow damage to all mobs in the area. This is a very valuable burst tool on class 4 pulls where the fight won't last long and burst is essential.
Unholy Blight = point for point, after RS, this is the most damage for your RP, provided it can tick out its full duration. It hits an unlimited number of targets in close range and ticks every second. This passive set-and-maintain damage makes the DK a walking threat zone. This is generally worth having up at all times except in the case of aoe groups that will die in less than 8 seconds (where CE is better use first and on CD).

Unholy's nature buffs some of the standard moves very nicely, particularly BB and DS. BB will get a nice buff from Unholy's spell dmg buffing, and DS will benefit from the third disease. Setting both diseases, DnD, UB, and pinging BB and CE is ludicrous amounts of unlimited-target threat that I haven't seen matched by the other classes. What's more it is almost entirely passive (up to BB and CE) allowing the Unholy Knight to then focus on the important primary targets. Unholy, a bit more than the other DK specs, takes a bit of wind-up to set things in motion, but once it is set up the threat formidable and unmatchable for shear volume on large aoe pulls.

DK's vary spec to spec. Blood is very powerful against Boss and Bruisers (classes 1 and 2), is strong against focused groups (class 3), and is weaker against swarms (class 4). Frost is powerful snap threat on multiple targets making it exceptional for bruisers (class 2) and swarms (class 4), though the bursty nature of its threat make it slightly idealized for cruising on bosses (class 1) and focused threat on group pulls (class 3). Understand though, like protadins, Frost Knights will do these very well, it's just not as smooth and requires a little more attentiveness to keep it consistant. Unholy is extraordinary for large swarms (class 4) and focused groups (class 3). Provided sufficient setup Unholy Knights can hold bosses just fine (class 1), though they are not ideal for Bruisers and snap threat (class 2).
================================================== =

I want to stress this again as people throw around a great deal of undeserved superlatives.

Any tank class/spec can tank any encounter in the game perfectly effectively. Smart teams will use their tank that best matches the particular challenge of the fight, and understanding the tools can help you match the tanks well.

When it comes to tanking, player skill trumps all else for the largest contributing factor to performance. In terms of survival that player skill is 80% preparation in setting up your gear well, and 20% in positioning pulls smartly and using your CDs at the right time. In terms of threat, the player skill is entirely about attention to detail. Picking up targets effectively, putting threat where it's needed as it's needed, and using the right tools for the situation make the difference between a good tank and a great tank.

We are fortunate to play a game that can include such a variable and interactive level of play.

Krenian
05-27-2009, 01:29 PM
Er...Satorri?

6 tanking classes? >.>

EDIT: ooooh...you confuzzled me. That's four tanking classes, but you broke one down in three. May wanna add Unrelenting Assault then as a seventh btw >.>

Edit 2: I borked your thread >.< Sorry!

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:29 PM
**Bear with me, I'm sandboxing a bit.

So as an addendum to what I did above, I constructed sets using all 5 pieces of the t8.5 tanking sets, and first I added identical and average non-set epics (bracers, belt, boots, neck, rings) to match for both, and then added appropriate weapons for each. All items are 226 level (232 weapons), so no hardmode gear. I also made a second warrior set with more block gear. I did take Rune Edge for the DK set since that would be an ideal survival weapon and would provide additional armor from the Agi. I tried to avoid pieces with too many additional sockets that could leave too much open, and I left off trinkets as there are no Ulduar trinkets with armor and so those will be used to boost avoidance, health, or defense as the individual needs. I'm working on the assumption that most people aren't socketing agility so I'll disregard gems for now as well.

Here's the comparison: (from left to right)
DK Tank / Warrior Tank (non-block) / Warrior Tank (block focus) (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=46118:46119:46120:46121:46122:45166:45825 :45111:45538:45112:45326:45233;46162:46164:46166:4 6167:46169:45111:45825:45166:45538:45326:45112:404 00:45137:45110;46162:46164:46166:46167:46169:45139 :45542:45111:45326:45247:45262:40400:45110:45137)

So for a quick comparison,

Armor
DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13500 x 1.15 x 1.80) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
= 29069

Warrior (general set) = 22272 (21390 multipliable)
= (21390 x 1.10) + 882 (non-multx) + 0 (Agi)
= 24411

Warrior (block set) = 21390 (all multipliable)
= 21390 x 1.10
= 23529

From the slightly dated, but still accurate calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.html/):

So against a boss (83):
DK = 63.6%
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

Warriors get 10% all dmg reduction in Def stance. DK's get 5% from Frost Pres, and can upkeep 5% from Blade Barrier (we'll call it 100% uptime for simplicity). So, both have that 10% additional and we'll call that a wash.

That puts the DK at a 4.1% edge over the general set and 5% over the block set.

The DK's set will have about 9% miss, 27% dodge, and 22% parry (taking generic talents, and average values), for a total of 58% avoidance.

To factor out block we need to know the % possibility and the value blocked:
Block chance is added in the hit table below miss/dodge/parry and above regular hits. So, if your miss+dodge+parry is greater than 100%-block chance your block chance will be shrunken (but you'll never take an unblocked hit). From the gear sets avoidance (without accounting for trinkets which will be at most 1.5-2% dodge/parry each, or gems) is only about 23% dodge, 15% parry, and 9% miss, totalling less than 50% so reasonable block chances will not be close to occluded even adding trinkets and pure avoidance gems. We'll round up to 50% for a round number to consider when we factor in Shield Block. Block chance factoring block rating and defense rating should be about (note this doesn't factor using block related trinkets):
General set = 17.6%
Block set = 24.0%

For block value, you take half your strength and add your block value from your shield and gear, and multiply by 1.3 (talent). For the two sets presented:
General set = 1079
Block set = 1420

Block value can 'crit' at a 30% chance and double the block value on that block. For Shield Block it has a 10 sec uptime on a 40 sec CD or a 25% uptime. During that time 50% of the swings taken will be blocked (the 50% not avoided).

So, let's create the scenario. The boss, fully de-hasted has a 2.4 sec swing timer and a 50k unmitigated hit.

Here's a very general breakdown:
DK
From armor and stance/blade barrier, hits that connect will do 16380 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 84 will connect, all for full value. On average that's 2867 dps incoming.

Warrior (gen)
From armor, hits that connect will do 18225 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 51 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 26 normal blocks, 16 will be reduced by 1079, 8 will crit and be reduced by 2158. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2158, and 8 will be reduced by 4316. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17146, 16067, and 13909 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3501 dps incoming.

Warrior (block)
From armor, hits that connect will do 18630 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 61 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 36 normal blocks, 25 will be reduced by 1420, 11 will crit and be reduced by 2840. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2840, and 8 will be reduced by 5680. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17210, 15790, and 12950 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3546 dps incoming.

At these numbers it may look like the DK has a bit of an edge, but here's where napkin math fails. Shield blocks reduce incoming damage by a static amount and block chances don't diminish. Borrowing from a friend's actual block set, if the warrior had 24k armor (61.3% dmg reduction), 31% block, and 1491 block value, with 49% avoidance, using the same metric as above:
200 swings
98 swings avoided
30 unmitigated swings for 17415
33 normal blocks for 15924
14 normal crit blocks for 14433
17 shield block normal blocks for 14433
8 shield block crit blocks for 11451
============================
Total incoming dps = 3306

And using only my passive values as a Blood DK, I have 30.7k armor worth 66.8% reduction, and 52.5% avoidance. Again, same scenario:
200 swings
105 swings avoided
95 unmitigated swings for 14940
============================
Total incoming dps = 2957

This does not account for use of trinkets, CDs other than Shield Block, or raid buffs (which will scale differently). At least these are real numbers.

A further curiosity, as his block set uses Lavanthor's Talisman (+440 bv for 20 sec on a 2 min CD), if he uses that on CD, matching it with Shield Block every time he can (which would be 50% of the trinket's used duration), that's 50% of the Shield Blocked blocks get +440 and 50% of the non-SB'd blocks get +440. Copying down from the above and adjusting the values slightly:
200 swings
98 swings avoided
28 unmitigated swings for 17415
33 normal blocks for 15924 (16 for 15484)
14 normal crit blocks for 14433 (7 for 13553)
17 shield block normal blocks for 14433 (8 for 13553)
8 shield block crit blocks for 11451 (4 for 9691)
============================
Total incoming dps = 2161 (use of that trinket on CD, with optimal timing and results gave a HUGE reduction, a full 33%)

So, to compare, my one trinket, the JC crafted Monarch Crab, gives about 7.6% dodge on use, for 10 sec every 2 min. Conveniently the two trinkets are the same level. Again, I'll pull down my numbers from above:
200 swings
120 swings avoided
80 unmitigated swings for 14940
============================
Total incoming dps = 2490 (notice here the reduction is not as sizeable, the block value trinket in the block value set results in a much more significant reduction though it does so by taking more hits for smaller values. He actually takes 102 hits many of which are blocked while I only take 80 hits).

I'll spare some of the repeat math, we'll take (removing trinkets again) that the real BV set functionally reduces the average swing damage by 3030 on the functional average block chance of 36% (31% buffed by Shield Block on CD).

So, let's consider 2 different scenarios. Before our boss had a 2.0 sec (2.4 de-hasted) swing time and a 50k unmitigated hit. So let's try:
Boss A: 1.0 sec swing timer, 25k hit
Boss B: 3.0 sec swing timer, 75k hit
Note, all 3 have the same unmitigated dps of 25k.

I'll keep using the real numbers from above, I'll just refer to them as DK and Warrior. So we'll take an 8 min window, for Boss A dehasted (1.2 sec swing) that is 400 swings, and for Boss B (3.6 sec swing) that is 133 swings.
DK
Boss A = 190 swings connect for 8300
Boss B = 63 swings connect for 24900
============================
Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3285
Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3268

Warrior
Boss A = 204 swings not avoided: 144 blocked hit for 6645, 60 connect for 9675
Boss B = 68 swings not avoided: 48 blocked hit for 25995, 20 connect for 29025
============================
Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3203
Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3809

So, for the DK swing speed and scale doesn't make much difference. For the Warrior, as makes sense logically, faster swings are more greatly reduced. The faster the attacks the better the warrior fairs, and here the warrior surpasses the DK on Boss A, but falls behind on Boss B, worse than the original average swinging boss, though it's all within a reasonable margin.


(crit post to be continued with consideration for Bears and Paladins)

Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. =)

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:29 PM
To add to my previous considerations I wanted to look at the distinction in the blocking style of a Paladin and the Savage Defense tool for Bears. **Disclaimer: I know Savage Defense isn't working fully as intended right now, and I'll need some input to understanding exactly how it procs, but I'll give it a start.**

To continue the same boss comparison, here are our 3 bosses:
Boss A = 25k unmitigated, 1.0 sec swing speed
Boss B = 50k unmitigated, 2.0 sec swing speed
Boss C = 75k unmitigated, 3.0 sec swing speed

I'll pull real stats from a few more of my well-geared tank friends:
Protadin: (we'll add imp Dev aura and BoSanc) 27220 armor (64.1% dmg reduction), 52.6% avoidance, 16.5% base block chance, 1316 block value (+458 for 5 sec after judging, judging on CD that's 5 sec out of every 8, or 62.5% uptime or 1602 avg block value), we'll assume 100% uptime on Holy Shield. Redoubt proc will vary with boss attack speed. 12% all damage reduction (he doesn't have Glyph of Divine Plea so I'll leave that out).

We'll take an 8 minute window on each boss.

Protadin
Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
210 swings avoided
*1 swing every 12 sec will proc redoubt on avg so, we'll give it an 83% uptime, so we'll average the effective block rate as 71.5% which is more than the unavoided swings, and we'll count every hit that connects as a block*
190 blocked swings hit for average 6296
=========================================
Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
105 swings avoided
*1 swing every 24 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 42% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 59%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
95 blocked swings hit for average 14194
=========================================
Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
70 swings avoided
*1 swing every 36 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 28% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 55%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
63 blocked swings hit for average 22092
=========================================
Boss A = 2492 incoming dps
Boss B = 2809 incoming dps
Boss C = 2900 incoming dps

Bear: 33073 armor (68.5%, he is heavily geared for armor), 46% avoidance, 34.4% crit chance (for proc chance), 4652 AP (for shield size), all in bear form. We'll say 3 out of every 4 GCD's is a move that can crit (let me know if that's too conservative or not enough). That means a shield will proc roughly once every 6 secs, and will absorb 1163.

Bear
Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
184 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 5 hits, so ~20% block chance*
80 hits shielded hit for 5767
136 hits connect directly for 6930
=========================================
Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
92 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 2.5 hits, so ~40% block chance*
80 hits shielded hit for 12697
28 hits connect directly for 13860
=========================================
Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
61 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 1.7 hits, so ~60% block chance which is more than avg avoid so we'll say all unavoided are shielded*
72 hits shielded hit for 19627
=========================================
Boss A = 2925 incoming dps
Boss B = 2925 incoming dps
Boss C = 2944 incoming dps



Some big themes and little revelations come out of this for me. Paladins seem to be reasonably, on average, able to block everything they don't avoid. With significant block value that can make for signficant protection. I did give the pally a bit of an edge the others didn't have in allowing a couple buffs like BoSanc and Devo Aura, but a prot pally won't likely be without that. Bears are capable of scary amounts of armor, I see from inspecting my friend, and I did not expect how SD would work *in theory.* It has an interesting interplay with incoming attack speed. The slower the attacks the more likely the bear is to block everything (it's logical but it hadn't occured to me like that). Obviously because bears have no talents or ways to buff that block value beyond just AP, the block value has the capacity to be somewhat smaller than the shield tanks, but it is not by much.

Overall themes to pull in, not surprisingly, Warriors and Paladins do better and better on incoming damage the faster and smaller the attacks (a la trash or just fast swinging bosses), though relating this to trash will change things slightly for the protadin. The warrior should remiain unphased, but if the paladin takes more than 1 physical swing per second, factoring avoidance, he may actually slip from 100% uptime on Holy Shield.


Some valuable assumptions to note for aspiring tanks or folks who didn't read every little detail or between the lines:


All bosses were fully dehasted (20%, as opposed to the unbuffed 12%). Without any de-hasting (Tclap, Frost Fever, Infected Wounds, or Judge of Just), or with unimproved dehasting the bosses would have swings as follows:

Boss A = 480 swings (0%) / 429 swings (12%) / 400 swings (20%)
Boss B = 240 swings (0%) / 214 swings (12%) / 200 swings (20%)
Boss C = 160 swings (0%) / 143 swings (12%) / 133 swings (20%)

De-hasting is very valuable, and getting full-improved dehaste will
save an appreciable amount of damage.


Warriors are using Shield Block on CD, Paladins are using Holy Shield on CD. Both these abilities will fall off pretty quickly in how much they save you depending on how sharp you are in using them.
Bear bubbles are tricky as they actually proc off of what the bear does for threat, not incoming attacks. That said it's possible to get a range of effect depending on how the bear tanks. I'm assuming Lacerate crits cannot proc the effect, though I'm also assuming the bear is using Lacerate regularly but not spamming it. It was hard to account for Maul/melee swings and Mangle/Swipe. On multi-target pulls I'm assuming Swipe crits on each additional target can increase the proc chance, but on bosses I think my estimate was probably still conservative.
CD's are a major tool and the different classes use CDs differently. DKs can IBF on CD and it is a significant degree of protection, and each spec has its own long CD that is used differently. Paladin's long CDs are somewhat less accessible though they are HUGE when they're used (LoH is about the biggest lifesaver you could have as a tank). Bears don't have much by way of survival CDs, with only really a threat-sacrificing self heal, health boost, and a protections skill at half the value of the DK's on the same CD. Warrior CDs actually have the most variety, and can cover the most situations, but they are still on a slightly longer CD.

It's an odd thing, looking at these numbers you'd expect the warriors to be taking the most damage, but I've never seen that really to be the case. I suppose it's easy to be misled by A.) the vagueries of this very general simulation, B.) the difference in the gear sets of the avatars selected (the warrior was in his block/threat set, and I happen to know he uses different sets when he needs to be more durable), and C.) there are always factors that are not well-accounted for.


I'll repeat my interests and concerns here, a big part of the reason I've filled this thread with long-winded, detailed discussions is that, rather than giving people grounds for a pity party, I want people to see the difference in how each class works. I want people to appreciate that the differences between each class/spec is not as severe as you might think, or may be led to believe by the gross generalized complaints you hear. The game is nowhere near imbalanced. Are there details that could be adjusted or balanced a little closer? Sure, but no one is without value and no tank is incapable of any tanking assignment, you are just often best suited by picking the class that matches the challenge best from your *team*. And if you don't play on a team (how you know: you don't cooperate or strategize, you just run in and try to Rambo it), I'm sorry you're missing out on the best quality of the endgame world.

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:33 PM
Just for you Tony I edited my initial post. I'm trying to adjust some of the public thinking on tanking away from DK's being considered an appropriate single category for tanks in these kinds of discussions. Each of the three specs plays very differently and has very particular flavors when it comes to where they fit best on tanking assignments.

shiz98
05-27-2009, 03:02 PM
Warriors, Frost DKs = the balanced tanks
Balanced = bad. If you don't excel at something, you'll be replaced by someone who does it better. It's not good to be "balanced" in WoW raiding, because you will be replaced, especially with the introduction of dual spec. Now fortunately, tanks are balanced closely enough that skill overcomes any slight advantage one tanking class has in any niche, so there's no issue here. I just thought it was important to bring up :)

Overall though, I'm not sure you can compare tank performance by looking at averages. In an average scenario, the tank really shouldn't be dying. Don't get me wrong - damage accumulated over the course of the fight is an important number, for sure. The more valuable comparison, however, is how tanks perform at extremes. It is at extremes that class abilities make a difference. If your raid is heavily damaged, you're down a healer or two, and adds are running loose, you will notice the difference between a DK and a druid, a paladin and a warrior, or even among the different DK specs. The average numbers may tell you they're equal, but in that situation they most certainly are not.

Vlad
05-27-2009, 03:34 PM
Does the calculation below take into account the upcoming armour nerf to DK's?

Armor
DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13500 x 1.15 x 1.80) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
= 29069

Warrior (general set) = 22272 (21390 multipliable)
= (21390 x 1.10) + 882 (non-multx) + 0 (Agi)
= 24411

Warrior (block set) = 21390 (all multipliable)
= 21390 x 1.10
= 23529

From the slightly dated, but still accurate calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.html/):

So against a boss (83):
DK = 63.6%
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

Esch
05-27-2009, 03:56 PM
No. The change to Frost Presence was announced after Satorri's original post. The revised numbers are:

DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13500 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
= 24840

DK = 60.7% (2.6% reduction)
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

(warriors noted for comparison again)

Martie
05-27-2009, 04:42 PM
The assumtion that every hit is blocked (as you did for paladins and druids) doesn't quite work out.

I should dig up some of my programming skills and write a program to brute-force your numbers for you, I'll send you a private mail once I have it up and running.

jere
05-27-2009, 04:56 PM
Satorri,

Just some nit picks:

Our health and damage mitigation numbers are multiplicative, not additive (tested this many times):

Health: 1.06*1.08 = 1.1448 or a 14.48% stamina multiplier, not 14%
Mitigation: (1-0.03)*(1-0.06)*(1-0.03) = 0.884446 or a mitigation of 11.5554%, not 12%

If you are doing the "9%" one, it is (1-0.03)*(1-0.06) = 0.9118 or 8.82% mitigation, not 9%

Vlad
05-27-2009, 08:06 PM
No. The change to Frost Presence was announced after Satorri's original post. The revised numbers are:

DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13500 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
= 24840

DK = 60.7% (2.6% reduction)
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

(warriors noted for comparison again)

Hmm I'm confuzzled, my base eligible armour is 13400 so if I use that calc it should look like this?
DK = 13916 on set (13400 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13400 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (what is this?) (non-multipliable) + 268 (Agi, I'm not using HoW for this)
= 25806 how did I end up 1k higher when I started with less base armour?

I dont have anticipation included, and even so using my current frost presence my armour in gome reports 24834, with anticipation it's 28519 and with HoW it's 28829.

Raddik
05-28-2009, 01:39 AM
DK's have Death Strike which restores 5% of their health per disease on the target which will heal for 50% more (next patch) for a Blood DK.

I supossed that this will be implemented with 3.1.2 but I have noticed that it isn't.... ¿¿when does this will be implemented?? The tooltip is already mentioning that 50% increased healing in live, but it doesn't works that way :mad:

Satorri
05-28-2009, 05:56 AM
I'll work my way up from the bottom on responses. =)

Raddik, this is in fact the way it works now. My DS's (talented from Blood is the important part) heal me for 7300 in raid buffs.

Vlad, the formula here is:
Final armor = [Armor from gear that has an armor weight, i.e. Plate x 1.15 (toughness) x 1.60 (/cry Frost Pres)] + (Armor from rings/neck/trinkets/weapons) + (Agility x 2)

I didn't account for racial base agility, HoW, socketed agility, etc either. And Esch, I'm not sure how, but your math came out low, that formula changed to 1.60 from Frost Pres works out to be 25964 armor or 63% reduction. It's not going to kill us, but it is a nerf, about 3k armor for well geared DKs.

Jere, you are of course correct, but I short-handed and did all the classes that way for simpler formulae. The correct damage reduction values are:
Warrior = 10% (def stance)
Paladin = 6% (righteous fury) x 3% (Shield of the Templar) = 8.82%
Bear = 12% (Protector of the Pack
DK = 5% (Frost Pres) x 5% (Blade Barrier) = 9.75%

And it is worth noting that BoSanc/Renewed Hope/Vigilance are multiplicative as well, meaning they won't quite be a full 3% either. The protection CD, Barkskin, IBF, Divine Protection, and Shield Wall are applied to damage after these mechanics as well (multiplicative). So for a quick example, after armor a DK takes, say 20k from a hit, Blade Barrier is up, in Frost Pres, and he pops IBF:
= 5% x 5% x 41% = 53.25% so the hit is now 10650

Martie, that would be really cool to share. I made very simplifying assumptions. The block everything idea is merely a big number statistical average of course. Because Redoubt and Savage Defense depend on a random chance there will be gaps simply because you don't have a regular interval on the proc, you will have attempted procs in the hidden CD (for Redoubt, I don't know if Savage Defense is restricted that way) and you will miss procs afterward. Anything you can bring to the table to give us a more realistic (but graspable) feel for this data would be great. If you need more exact variables I can give you less pretty math more like the real thing.

And Shiz, I disagree with the severity of your first statement. Balanced is not bad. I understand your point though. When you're dealing with min/max hardcore raid construction (like what was required for Sunwell) you will want to match the best possible tank to the situation and the tank who's not best at anything will be left behind. The reality is that this is not Sunwell and there is no tank who canNOT tank anything currently in the game. One may make it marginally easier than another, and maybe that margin is significant when you're first learning it or if you're trying it with other challenges (like running short on heals). Generally speaking, balanced is anything but bad, and it is actually VERY valuable to a new faction of the raid world. Specifically, I'm talking about the small groups of friends who raid. Guilds consisting of 10-12 people who just like playing together. They don't have access to any possible tank, so having a balanced tank will let them put their best foot forward on all the fights they don't have an optimal match for. This is the beauty of what Blizz has opened up to their customers.

On your second comment, my intent, initially, is not to use this as a X vs Y vs Z analysis, it is simply for the sake of illustrating how tank mechanics work. If you understand the mechanics better you understand how the tank break down. I'll go one farther and say that you don't need healers to die or for it to be a make or break situation to see class differences, you will see them on the status quo, and in both normal and emergency situations player skill with their character will FAR FAR outweigh any nuancy difference in these numbers. Tank A takes 2% more damage than Tank B on this fight, in theory? But Tank A also happens to use his CDs very smartly, has a good sense of timing and positioning, and so actually in 7 out of 10 fights he averages taking 8% LESS damage. That's the way things tend to work in the 'real' (game) world.

Maelstrom
05-28-2009, 06:18 AM
In "health discussion" where you are discussing tank CDs, there's a typo with divine protection:

"Their protection skill, Divine Protection, is solid at 40% and a 2 min CD"

It's 50% on a 2 minute CD which makes it 10% more than a glyphed shield wall, I think it's right elsewhere in the posts though :).

Also why is Glyph of Divine Plea excluded from the calculation? It's a flat 3% reduction to all damage, which is pretty huge for a constant effect. I guess perhaps excluding all glyphs is easier from a modeling PoV, although I think divine plea is unique in being the only global damage reduction glyph available to any tank.

Also hey, first time poster!

<3

Satorri
05-28-2009, 06:37 AM
I actually want to clarify one small aspect for any readers who may not understand all the funky math or who have trouble following the formulae.

Each stat has its own effect and place in the calculation of your damage. I'll explain the rough sequence the calculation goes through. Bear in mind this is actually over-dissected and all of this happens in a moment. The different categories are not so split out, I just did this for ease of the reader:



Each boss has a designated 'unmitigated' damage value for their swing, special ability, etc. All of them usually have a small damage range (roughly +/- 5%, though some have a much bigger range, like XT).
The boss attacks and the system handles the chance to hit (see hit table discussions for more specifics). Assuming he does not miss, you do not dodge or parry, the computer assesses damage from that unmitigated value. We'll call that number D.
Now it's time for the defender's stats to kick in. Armor is first and is a set factor usually on the order of 58-68% physical damage reduction, so the factor the damage is multiplied by is 100%-Armor%. We'll call this number A (will be a number like 0.3562). So the damage is now D x A.
The game scans through your static and passive damage reduction from talents and stances first and multiplies each factor. We'll call the stance factor S, this includes Defensive Stance, Frost Pres, Protector of the Pack, and Shield of the Templar. So the factor, S, like above will look like 0.9500. The damage is now D x A x S.
The game now scans through active long term buffs, like Righteous Fury, Blessing of Sanctuary, Vigilance, etc. We'll call this factor L, and will, like the above reducers be 100%-BuffReduction%, so a number like 0.9700. The damage is now D x A x S x L1 x L2 x ...
The game now looks at short duration or quick use buffs, like Renewed Hope, IBF, Shield Wall, Blade Barrier, etc. These quick buffs are the factored on the remaining damage. We'll call these values Q for short. They are factored the same as all those above. The damage is now D x A x S x L1 x L2 x Q1 x Q2.

So to use that, identify each of your reduction buffs and add them on one at a time. We'll take a boss swing of 100k for ease. And we'll imagine a fictional DK.
The DK has 30k armor, so it reduces damage by 66.32%. A = 0.3368
She has Frost Pres which reduces the damage by 5%. S = 0.9500
She has Blessing of Sanc which reduces damage by 3%. L = 0.9700
She has Blade Barrier up reducing damage by 5%. Q1 = 0.9500
She popped IBF so the damage is being reduced by another 40%. Q2 = 0.6000

So, the formula for actual damage taken will be:
Dmg(Actual) = (100,000) x 0.3368 x 0.9500 x 0.9700 x 0.9500 x 0.6000
= 17,691

For those not fluent in math, the order in which you multiply these numbers doesn't matter, it will always come out to the same value (Associative Property).

If the attack is blocked, it adds a separate non-multiplicative value. A static amount to reduce the hit, this value is equal to your block value. So we'll do the same as above with a Protadin:
The Pally has 28k armor, so it reduces damage by 64.77%. A = 0.3523
She has SotT which reduces the damage by 3%. S = 0.9700
She has Blessing of Sanc which reduces damage by 3%. L1 = 0.9700
She has Imp Righteous Fury which reduces damage by 6%. L2 = 0.9400
She popped Divine Protection to reduce another 50%. Q1 = 0.5000
And she blocked with a block value of 1500.

So, the formula for actual damage taken will be:
Dmg(Actual) = [(100,000) x 0.3523 x 0.9700 x 0.9700 x 0.9400 x 0.5000] - 1500
= 14,080

As opposed to above, the multiplications must happen first (still regardless of order within), but the subtraction of the shield block value does not occur until after the multiplications. This does actually work well in the favor of shield block-capable classes since % multipliers somewhat reduce each others' effective reduction, the static block value is not functionally altered by any other survival mechanics.

So, to restate an old and pretty well-known fact, hopefully with a bit more basis for the not-well-read-theorycrafters, this is what people mean by these bonuses being multiplicative instead of additive. Taking the Pally from right above:
Additive: 64.77% + 3% +3% + 6% + 50% = 126.77%
Multiplicative: 35.23% x 97% x 97% x 94% x 50% = 15.58% gets through (or 84.42% reduction)

Gehn
05-28-2009, 08:13 AM
I'm an id10t who doesn't read the whole thing...

Great job!

jere
05-28-2009, 03:41 PM
It's Commutativity silly goose, not Associativity.

Associativity deals with the order of the operators themselves while commutativity deals with the order of the operands themselves. You really aren't moving "multiplies" as much as what is being multiplied.

/randommathnuttiness

Nadir_
05-28-2009, 03:53 PM
Protadins = these are a little tricky within my gross generalization above. They will stack health because it is a versatile stat buffing their threat as well, they have strong shield block abilities making them great for fast attacks like the balanced tanks, though they tend to do better when you play up one of those two aspects rather than avoidance. Paladins I'd also deem the 9 lives tanks. With Lay on Hands, Ardent Defender, bubbles, and the ability for high block coverage, they can be very hard to kill and can catch themselves from the brink of death very noticeably.

Lay on Hands is a poor survivability cool down since it's on the GCD. Morever, it has a 15 minute glyphed cool down meaning you're using it roughly once every three encounters, which is not acceptable for progression raiding.

Ardent Defender is great for trash. You won't hear many Paladins signing its graces when a boss's single hit is on the range of 18-22k thus skipping AD's effective range entirely.

Paladins are the easiest tanks to kill in hard mode encounters because large burst damage is what kills tanks. Since we have a 50% damage reduction every two minutes and tank gib abilities occur more frequently than this, this makes Paladin an inferior tank.

I wish there were a fast hitting, moderate damage encounter. Algalon seems like a fast hitting, high damage encounter where even GC himself admits that DKs are great at tanking.

Vlad
05-28-2009, 03:56 PM
Vlad, the formula here is:
Final armor = [Armor from gear that has an armor weight, i.e. Plate x 1.15 (toughness) x 1.60 (/cry Frost Pres)] + (Armor from rings/neck/trinkets/weapons) + (Agility x 2)

Ahh yes racials, I knew I was missing something.
I guess 3k isn't great but it's not the end of the world. It'll mean I'll be about 29-30k armour fully raid buffed, I don't really get to tank atm anyways.

Satorri
05-28-2009, 04:28 PM
Of course you're right Jere, but if I put in some parentheses to try to explain it I'd be right. >.> /fumbles with the edit key

And, Nadir, many defensive CDs are on the GCD, and many used to have very long CDs, that doesn't diminish their value, it just limits their use. LoH is a very powerful ability (thus the long CD), and there are few skills that could actually truly have this sort of life saving effect for a tank without giving up threat entirely (also a Pally move). I don't think anyone will argue that it is somehow going to be used in constant rotation, but it is a tool in the arsenal.

I don't think anything you descirbed makes pallies a particularly 'inferior' tank, hard modes in Ulduar will put any tank to the test. If you have any numbers or more descriptive examples to back up your statement though, please do share, that is what this thread is about (actual examples, not unsupported qualifying statements).

jere
05-28-2009, 05:24 PM
From a practicality point of view, he is spot on about LoH. The long cooldown makes it not so good for hard mode progression. It becomes more of an emergency type cooldown, rather than one used to combat a particular fight mechanic. Fights like Steelbreaker typically require multiple cooldowns in hardmode, so depending on your raid makeup, that can disconcerning to say the least.

Divine Protection is a better candidate for a predictable cooldown used to tackle hard mode fight mechanics, but it is our only one aside from glyphed HoSalv, which can't really be used as predictably in encounters like Hodir hard mode, where threat matters too.

Satorri
05-29-2009, 05:45 AM
Quite so, but thankfully LoH is in your arsenal no matter what so it's foolish not to have it on your bar and pull it out when it really matters. Hodir and Steelbreaker are actually not fights where I'd likely use it, since you're expecting your health to plummet (/cuddle anti-magic shell) and healers are expecting to hit you with their hardest.

jere
05-29-2009, 05:54 AM
I don't think anyone was suggesting removing it from our bars. I think the concern is more that we are just saying "it's a cooldown" without really quantifying what kind of cooldown it is used for. In a class comparison style thread we have to be careful to actually compare apples to apples. Otherwise, we start getting a lot of generalized statements/arguements.

Predakhan
05-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Bear bubbles are tricky as they actually proc off of what the bear does for threat, not incoming attacks. That said it's possible to get a range of effect depending on how the bear tanks. I'm assuming Lacerate crits cannot proc the effect, though I'm also assuming the bear is using Lacerate regularly but not spamming it. It was hard to account for Maul/melee swings and Mangle/Swipe. On multi-target pulls I'm assuming Swipe crits on each additional target can increase the proc chance, but on bosses I think my estimate was probably still conservative.

I am pretty sure that right now Savage Defense is proccing with Lacerate crits which is why Bears take primal gore.

Satorri
05-29-2009, 07:30 PM
I thought it may be possible, but I kept talking myself out of it because it seemed too good. Can anyone confirm?

jere
05-30-2009, 06:20 AM
Darksend might be able to if you are able to snag him. There is probably a thread at EJ on it too somewhere.

minrog
05-31-2009, 02:54 AM
The cooldown discussion is probably the most important aspect of the guide with the T8 raiding content. I stumbled upon this guide while searching for ways to survive a Mimiron plasma burst without having any T8 set gear.

We fought him tonight in 10 man Ulduar for a long time and our two tanks were a Paladin and a Warrior. We eventually had the Paladin switch to full time healing (bringing our healers to 4: Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Holy Priest, Holy Paladin) and I couldn't find a way to live through the 3rd Plasma Burst.

The only advice I was able to find had to do with accumulating a 4 piece set of Tier 8 and getting Hand of Sacrifices. That or getting a Discipline Priest to handhold me with Pain Supression. It's far more likely that I'll be sidelined indefinitely because I'm unable to tank the encounters without begging for outside intervention from specific classes and talent specs. At least my Paladin tank friend can still raid if he's willing to go Holy lol.

The other thing I wanted to add was under your tanking scenarios you failed to mention the steady stream of monsters as a mechanic. Akin to the Brann event in HoL or on Gothik where a new monster comes into range every half second or so for 2 to 5 minutes. The cooldown on TC and Shockwave mean 2/3 or more of the mobs have to be hit manually with a single target attack. There is a reason why we took Paladin OT's to Mount Hyjal to kill the trash waves in there. While they made it better by not including many encounters that use it the flaws in the tanking haven't been fixed for the Warriors yet and all it takes is an entire Raid Dungeon based around 1 second pulse aoe tanking for it to surface again.

Nicki
05-31-2009, 06:08 AM
Lay on hands isn't a cooldown one can rely upon, I think you think more of it then there is to think of it.

1. Its on the GCD meaning chances are its not always the easiest thing to use in a pinch.
2. Healers heals nullify the effect almost always
3. Most times when lay on hands saves you you outgear the content.
4. In most cases where cooldowns are useful, lay on hands is really ineffective. This is due to the nature of these specifics (Sarth breath one shots tank, Vezax darkness) These hit for too much for a single even well times 40k heal to save the day.

I just think some realism is needed LoH isn't that good and really with holy paladins being more or less able to spam 10k heals every 1.7~ seconds. At best you look at getting a single 100% effective heal but critting needn't have a >.> next to it. After all of TBC and most of wrath it remains my least used cooldown for tanks (when not holy as holy I use it on tanks because of the improved talent and the fact it returns mana to me with the glyph etc. or im oom). I am more likely to use LoH to give mana to a caster than to save a tank. Its a once in a blue moon cooldown that you may find useful once in a while...



While they made it better by not including many encounters that use it the flaws in the tanking haven't been fixed for the Warriors yet and all it takes is an entire Raid Dungeon based around 1 second pulse aoe tanking for it to surface again.

It wasn't one second pulse that made warrior tanking hard before 3.0. It was not being able to hit 12 things. Warriors are incredibly good at dealing with instant spawn tanking a place where paladins struggle due to the tick nature of consecration.

All you have to ask yourself is could you tank hyjal after 3.0? Chances are you could and could do it with flying colours. Warrior AoE tanking may not be perfect but i'd say its not the nature of mobs that need to be tanked that are the flaw, its the scaling. When all warriors got shockwave and thunderclap at 70 (the new improved versions) we completely destroyed paladin tanking. Shattered halls turned into a cake walk. If anything is wrong its the scaling not the dungeon design. In paladins case they can be completely ruined by mobs running too fast over consecration and casters. As a warrior you have tools to combat these situations.

Noteably the only thing that would make an encounter problematic for warrior tanking would be 4 waves of adds spawning 2 seconds apart. Prehaps theres room for a floor after effect from shockwave or thunderclap just to avoid this problem.

Satorri
05-31-2009, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. No one is questioning the limitations of Lay on Hands, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a CD that Protadins have at their disposal which *may* save their lives. That simple. That said it is the one tanking ability that will reset your health to full, period. That may not mean as much depending on when you use it, but it is unique and very powerful, there is a reason there are the limitations to its use that there are.

You could say the same thing of a great many other tanking abilities from all 4 classes, you only suffer from under-valuing it to the point of never using it, should you make that mistake.

The argument that tanks providing heals in any form is 'wasted' because that's the healers' job is just plain foolish, short-sighted, and ignorant. Ask your healers if it's a bad thing if you require less healing.

The joke about it critting is, if you're using it on yourself, it will restore your full life, critting is comical because it will only translate into 50% overhealing at least (more since you'd have to have no life), and as a prot pally the chances of you using it on someone with less health than you is slim unless you're with a tank who stacks more health. Lighten up and smile a little. =P

Esch
05-31-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. No one is questioning the limitations of Lay on Hands, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a CD that Protadins have at their disposal which *may* save their lives. That simple. That said it is the one tanking ability that will reset your health to full, period. That may not mean as much depending on when you use it, but it is unique and very powerful, there is a reason there are the limitations to its use that there are.

I think the point he's trying to make is while LoH is a solid ability, the cooldown, net effect and 'after damage' aspect doesn't compare with a mitigation talent. Like Rune Tap, it's useless if you died from the spike damage, and preemptively using it won't affect the mitigation of an infinitely large hit.

Raddik
06-02-2009, 03:39 AM
My DS's (talented from Blood is the important part) heal me for 7300 in raid buffs.

My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15%

About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?

slackhoid
06-02-2009, 04:21 AM
My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15%

About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?
It does not need to be with Vampiric Blood. The biggest DS Heals I've seen seen as Unholy tank is around 6700. My ~44K raid buffed is nothing spectacular and it is by no means gemmed/enchanted for max health, I actually just swapped away some stam gems for expertize) Blood gets more stam buff from talents, so 7300 DS heal is quite achievable in good gear without Vampiric blood.

Talk about big heals; as unholy I have perma-pet with AOE resist; Death Pact heals me nearly 18k and pet is quite nicely available even in AOE heavy encounters. This has saved me just countless times; healers can go out of range/LOS occasinally (dodging Molgein runes or LOS-issues during Ayriya fear are perfect examples such situations) specially while we are just learning the encounters.



The argument that tanks providing heals in any form is 'wasted' because that's the healers' job is just plain foolish, short-sighted, and ignorant. Ask your healers if it's a bad thing if you require less healing.

Could not agree more. My healers love me because they know I can and will make every effort to help them (would be very stupid of me not to for example during tantrums or Frozen blows). Many encounters in Ulduar require lot of raid healing and why not help healers to focus other players too. This true more than ever when your group does not outgear or even undergear the encounter.

We run 10-mans only with very small guild and almost always without optimal raid composition and having everyone alive is usually what beats enrage timers ja gives us progress.

Satorri
06-02-2009, 06:30 AM
My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15%

About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?

Blood tank =) I stack heavy heavy health, I've been working hard on that. It really plays well with the mechanics. Larger span for Blood-gorged damage buff, great big DS, Rune Tap, and Mark of Blood heals, and (if I had it) bigger range for Will of the Necropolis. Playing with the WoWhead I should have over 50k raid buffed before Vamp Blood once I have a more complete set of Conquerors level gear!

Nadir_
06-03-2009, 06:34 AM
I guess what irks me the most (of course not in this thread) is that I've heard many other tank classes claim that LoH is Paladin's "Last Stand." It's a 15 minute glyphed CD that does nothing to increase our survivability versus the most dangerous tank killing moves in hard mode encounters - ie. things that hit higher than our raid buffed health.

I'd trade the ability to use LoH for Last Stand in a heart beat. I don't think many Warriors, DKs, or Bears would say the same thing in reverse.

Honorshammer
06-03-2009, 06:50 AM
I did give the pally a bit of an edge the others didn't have in allowing a couple buffs like BoSanc and Devo Aura, but a prot pally won't likely be without that.

I think this decision will lead to incorrect conclusion. The BoSanct damage reduction is provided by other classes (Priest's Renewed Hope) and Devo can be applied by a Paladin of any stripe (tell you don't have at least 1 Paladin in your 25 man raid).

This was the same mistake the Deveopers made in Beta and why we had to fight so hard for the additional 3% DR on Shield of the Templar. They were comparing a Tankadin with BoSanct to a Warrior without, but as soon as you pair that Warrior with a Paladin to give him Sanct, it's no longer a valid comparison.

Honorshammer
06-03-2009, 06:52 AM
Lay on Hands can be a lifesaver, but it's cooldown is so long you really have to think for a second about whether or not your are going to use it, and sometimes that delay will get you killed.

I also can't count the number of times I've used my Lay On Hands and then had a 15k Holy Light bomb from our Paladin healer land.

serrasin
06-04-2009, 05:06 AM
I may have missed it, but I did not read any mention of Divine Sacrifice. While it may not be relevant to main tanking a boss, it is nonetheless a valuable utility for protecting the raid and felt that it might be worthwhile to give it some attention.

Satorri
06-04-2009, 06:32 AM
The discussion above was just about baseline tanking tools. I mentioned Div Sacrifice for the sake of protecting the group, but not for protecting the tank. Tank teams can be very powerful if you use tools like that well (I use my Mark of Blood to support my co-tanks).

And Honor, I usually don't hesitate when I use LoH. Sometimes that means I don't get the biggest effect I could, but I don't feel bad about it either. =) A tool not used is truly a waste of an asset.

I had another idea for a consideration to equivocate about, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

One thing that did occur to me last night was talking shop with my warrior friend before we did Ignis. Despite my armor nerf (/cry they chopped 2.5k armor off =( ), I was sitting at 31k armor (next time I'll have MORE I got the super armor pants from Kolo25), a full 2.5k above him. And we had a laugh, I said, "but you have shield block!" to which he said, yeah but that doesn't help so much against giant boss swings, and I thought to myself, "self," I says, "the armor difference is a tiny %, what block value/rate would he have to have, based on boss swing size of course, to match my % from the little extra armor?"

So, here's the base numbers:
My armor = 31,000 (67.1%)
His armor = 28,500 (65.2%)

*The difference is 1.9% reduction in physical damage*
Pulling our 3 bosses above:
25k every 1.2 sec, 50k every 2.4 sec, 75k every 3.6 sec

DK taken per swing = 8225 (A), 16450 (B), 24675 (C)
Warrior non-block per swing = 8700 (A), 17400 (B), 26100 (C)

So the difference per swing is 475 (A), 950 (B), 1425 (C)

Taking his ~30% block chance and 30% chance for the block to crit, that means the block value needed would be: deltaswing = 0.30 x (0.3 x 2 x B + 0.7 x B) + 0.70 x 0

or B = 2.564 x delta swing, where B = base block value

to make up the difference. So plugging that in:
Boss A = 1218
Boss B = 2436
Boss C = 3654

So, against the boss swinging very quickly the block value to bridge the gap is very achievable, but the difference is beyond reasonable achievement for the average swing or way beyond for the slow swinging boss. *IF you were relying on block alone to bridge the armor gap.* Note: this does not account for Shield Block which will pull the average block value up distinctly if it is used heavily.

The other aspect that shield bearers and Blizz are not so fond of, is that you are (like avoidance used to be seen) relying on a random chance, so some swings will hit more softly and some will hit harder. Though, people who parrot GC's extreme example of 50% of the swing damage are misusing his hyperbole.

I'll be interested to see how they change blocking as a mechanic, I'm sure it will be interesting now that we know they're digging into it. I've generally been quite happy with Blizz's designs when they bring their more current system-minded turn at things.

anamiac
07-02-2009, 12:59 AM
Druid = Druids wear leather gear and get a big armor buff from being a bear (370%, talented it is 492% or 403% *fact check please*). Druids cannot parry or block, only dodge. In addition to the armor buff, bear form increases the druid's stamina by 25%. Talents give the bear +10% armor from gear, +10 Expertise, +10% dodge, +16% stamina, +6% Strength, +6% Agility, and 6% reduced chance to be crit.
Since Improved Mark of the Wild now gives +2% to stats, druids who take this talent will see +18% stamina, +8% strength, and +8% agility.

bashef
07-02-2009, 05:20 AM
This is an interesting thread, and well researched, full of lots of useful info for the uninitiated as well as talking points for people more comfortable with these ideas, and (remarkably) devoid of silly/biased/emotive class comparisons... so thanks!

The one thing I would say is that where numerical comparison is concerned, you have focused on expected damage taken per second. This is perfectly legitimate to explore, but as you and others will I'm sure agree, what kills tanks is spike damage, not sustained damage over time. Very rarely is it the case that damage taken over time exceeds heals received over time leading to the slow death of the tank; assuming nobody did anything stupid (a la not dispelling fusion punch dot) the most likely cause of tank death will be the case where the tank takes massive damage very quickly, and for whatever reason healers are unable to respond during the burst. A simple generic example would be a parry leading to two melee swings in quick succession; specific encounters will also have environmental factors or special attacks leading to similar scenarios.

In that vein I think there are a lot more interesting questions that crop up (although I'm not suggesting you should attempt to answer them since it would be extremely time-consuming at best and intractable at worst! It's just worth noting that this is where really meaningful comparisons apply). These issues are crystallised in the answers to questions like: what is the probability that two (three/four) melee swings taken without heals received will result in tank death? (Or equivalently what is the probability that special attack + melee swing immediately after kills the tank?)

The answers to questions like these depend on a lot of things... also it would be more interesting to consider the case where attacks are not avoided/blocked (as well as the probability of this happening) since this will be the situation that kills the tank.

Of course all of these sound like worst-case expected-time-to-live issues... which they are. This is of course the principle that underlies effective health gearing: not because it's the most efficient way to reduce expected damage taken (avoidance is better for that) but because it reduces the chance of death when your avoidance fails. This is why so many people prefer (blood) death knights and druids for progression encounters, all other things being equal.

Anyway, again thanks for the post, it was an entertaining read - I just wanted to mention this stuff since I didn't notice it anywhere in the original post and I thought it an important point to mention in a thread like this.

Satorri
07-02-2009, 07:06 AM
You are right of course, the healing capacity of healers against steady damage in is not a competition at all with tank mitigation and potential healing power. Spike damage is what kills because it catches healers off guard, but that is a skill in an of itself, to know when to expect spike damage (since the RNG has all but been taken out of it with Crushing Blows).

I think one of the major reasons people favor effective health when they're nitpicking over details (I know plenty of people who just want to run behind a "good" tank, a strong player, they're less concerned with their gearing method) is that they don't understand that value of Avoidance in what you're talking about, sequential hits. At least, many have the idea that it is good but don't understand how to read the numbers.

I think it is worth touching on, though I won't get into the deeper implications right now.

First off, something worth being able to see plainly, is from basic probability. If you have an X% chance of something (refreshing the possibilities on every roll, i.e. draw card, replace card, shuffle, draw card, instead of draw card, set card aside, draw again), there is a simple formula to find out your chances of succeeding that chance multiple times in a row. That is X^(number of times in a row)%.

So, for example, if you have 60% avoidance, the mob has a 40% chance to hit you once, 0.40^2 = 16% chance to hit you twice in a row, and a 0.40^3 = 6.4% chance to hit you 3 times in a row.

To make it easy to read as a field:


Total Avoidance Chance to be hit in a row:
(miss+dodge+parry) 1 time 2 times 3 times 4 times
30% 70.0% 49.0% 34.3% 24.0%
35% 65.0% 42.3% 27.5% 17.9%
40% 60.0% 36.0% 21.6% 13.0%
45% 55.0% 30.3% 16.6% 9.2%
50% 50.0% 25.0% 12.5% 6.3%
55% 45.0% 20.3% 9.1% 4.1%
60% 40.0% 16.0% 6.4% 2.3%
65% 35.0% 12.3% 4.3% 1.5%
70% 30.0% 9.0% 2.7% 0.8%
So, if a well geared tank is somewhere between 50% and 60% total avoidance (which is attainable without avoidance trinkets or gems in 226 gear), you have a nearly non-existant chance to get hit 4 times in a row, and a pretty reasonable chance not to take 3 in a row. It's the word chance, of course that people get skittish about.

Find a healer who actually wants your incoming damage not to be interrupted (even unpredictably). =)

To relate that to my easy napkin math of incoming dps, and let's see what we get. Resurrecting Bosses A-C, and we'll give our tank 60% damage reduction from armor, and the full de-haste value:
Boss A hits for 10k every 1.2 seconds
Boss B hits for 20k every 2.4 seconds
Boss C hits for 30k every 3.6 seconds

If our tank has 55% avoidance (45% chance of first hit, 20% second, 9% third, 4% fourth), looking at our 8 minute window worth of attacks (400 swings from A, 200 from B, and 133 from C).

First off, over the full 8 minutes:
Boss A will only actually land 180 hits
Boss B will only actually land 90 hits
Boss C will only actually land 60 hits

Of the successful hits, 1 out of every 5 will be followed with another in sequence (invoking perfect statistical performance):
Boss A will have 36 hit pairs (72 of 180 hits)
Boss B will have 18 hit pairs (36 of 90 hits)
Boss C will have 12 hit pairs (24 of 60 hits)

Of those hit pairs, roughly 1 in 11 will be followed by a third (note: not exclusive to the hit pairs above):
Boss A will have 3 hit strings (9 of 180 hits)
Boss B will have 2 hit strings (6 of 90 hits)
Boss C will have 1 hit string (3 of 60 hits)

Suffice to say most of the times you will not see 4 hits in a row from any of the above bosses (though it can certainly happen it'll be a rare exception without mitigating circumstances like bad positioning or debuffs reducing avoidance).

We'll pull numbers back out to say that (rough approximation):
Boss A will get 3 strings (9/180), 33 pairs (66/180), which leaves 105 single hits, and 220 misses.

Boss B will get 2 strings (6/90), 16 pairs (32/90), which leaves 52 single hits, and 110 misses.

Boss C will get 1 string (3/60), 11 pairs (22/60), which leaves 35 single hits, and 73 misses.

We'll keep chaining that down to more digestible values:
Boss A = 3 times per fight he will do 30k damage in 4.8 seconds (6250 dps), 33 times per fight he'll do 20k damage in 3.6 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 105 hits it will be only 10k damage over 2.4 seconds (4167 dps).

Boss B = 2 times per fight he will do 60k damage in 9.6 seconds (6250 dps), 16 times per fight he'll do 40k damage in 7.2 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 52 hits it will be only 20k damage over 4.8 seconds (4167 dps).

Boss C = 1 times per fight he will do 90k damage in 14.4 seconds (6250 dps), 33 times per fight he'll do 60k damage in 10.8 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 105 hits it will be only 30k damage over 7.2 seconds (4167 dps).

Notice that the dps levels for them are all the same, and that for my model static model of boss dps (varied with swing speed) the range will either come in short bursts or large hits spread over a slightly longer timeline. In grand average thinking, this is what you can expect for incoming damage, it's just not rhythmic which would allow your healers to fully predict it.

The more of these levels of complexity we add, the closer we get to the real thing. I think a lot of this may be helpful to know, or more, the ideas are useful to have. Ignorance still reigns in many discussions I see about WoW mechanics and their effects on gear choice. You can't fault people, of course, for not understanding the trickier mechanics, and practical application of avoidance is a tough one with the scary word, "chance."

I like to try and make more acceptable explanations and real numbers available to people who have trouble following the more complicated modelling and giant tables of values. Hopefully this thread continues to inform people so they can base decisions on somewhat more effective values and less on unsupported editorial of equally unknowledgeable people (played Telephone lately, very informative about how communication can work, or go bad).

headknocker
07-02-2009, 09:32 AM
Nice summary. One minor point and one suggestion. Minor point, glyph of seal vengence will produce 10 expertise and is probably worth a mention. Realize that you're not trying to provide a definitive list of glyphed functions, but is relevant to both threat and (slight) damage reduction from reduced parry haste and is commonly used.

Suggestion, has anyone seen a time to live view of the multiple tanking classes post 3.1? I've seen a good one at 3.0.8, but nothing since.

bashef
07-03-2009, 06:47 AM
Satorri - another great example of trying to bring unfamiliar and uncomfortable concepts (people who don't work with statistics don't usually have a great grasp of it!) to a more general audience.

Your examples in this case are a bit out though, so I think make the situation seem less dangerous than it is; I should also preface this by saying that I like avoidance as a tank, but do understand why effective health minimums must first be met in order to face an encounter, and in fact you probably want a comfortable cushion before looking to gear for avoidance.

What I wanted to take issue with is the damage that hit pairs and hit strings represent, or more specifically the period in which the damage occurs:


Boss A = 3 times per fight he will do 30k damage in 4.8 seconds (6250 dps), 33 times per fight he'll do 20k damage in 3.6 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 105 hits it will be only 10k damage over 2.4 seconds (4167 dps).

Boss B = 2 times per fight he will do 60k damage in 9.6 seconds (6250 dps), 16 times per fight he'll do 40k damage in 7.2 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 52 hits it will be only 20k damage over 4.8 seconds (4167 dps).

Boss C = 1 times per fight he will do 90k damage in 14.4 seconds (6250 dps), 33 times per fight he'll do 60k damage in 10.8 seconds (5556 dps), and for the other 105 hits it will be only 30k damage over 7.2 seconds (4167 dps).
If Boss A hits for 10k every 1.2 seconds, then a set of two hits in a row represents 20k damage taken in 1.2 seconds: you've multiplied the swing speed by three for your examples, but in fact the period over which you take the damage is just a single swing. To clarify: boss hits you at the end of his swing, so at time t=0 you take 10k damage. The swing takes 1.2 seconds, so then at time t=1.2 you take another 10k damage. The total damage taken between t=0 and t=1.2 is 20k (a much more worrying 16.7k dps). Similarly, three unavoided hits in a row represents 30k damage taken over 2.4 seconds (12.5k dps).

Carrying on for bosses B and C, if you take two hits in a row from boss B, that's 40k damage in 2.4 seconds. Boss C is 60k damage in 3.6 seconds. These indeed do result in the same dtps as Boss A.

This is a seriously scary scenario. A 25 man Ulduar warrior/paladin will have ~45k health raid buffed. Boss B just took him from 100% to almost dead in 2.4 seconds (assuming heals didn't land in that period). He better get a couple of holy lights between t=2.4 and t=4.8 or another unavoided hit will kill him (and three unavoided hits in a row will happen, as you say, twice in a highly idealised "average" fight). Boss C will flat out kill any tank who doesn't recieve heals in the 3.6 seconds between hits 1 and 2.

The final point, as if this weren't scary enough, is the effect parry hasting has on these numbers. Let's assume a parry occurs in the range where the swing speed gets the full 40% hasting (we're talking worst case scenario after all). For boss A, this results in taking 20k damage in 0.72 seconds (27.8k dtps). For boss B, it's 40k damage in 1.44 seconds (giving healers a whopping 2.84 seconds to respond to 60k damage if the next hit lands as well - if they can't get off 16-17ks worth of heals in that period the tank dies). For boss C two unavoided swings with the second subject to full parryhasting is 60k damage in 2.16 seconds - this is less than the cast time of a realistically hasted holy light, so healers better have been pre-casting or even a two-hit string kills the tank. Three hits in a row is 90k damage in less than 6 seconds: pretty much guaranteed tank death unless cooldowns are used.

I realise these numbers are made up, and that the models are pretty simple - and furthermore, I'm absolutely not trying to make a point about gearing for effective health or anything like that. Rather, the point I was trying to make is that periods of extreme spike damage do occur even in run-of-the-mill situations (we haven't even touched upon encounter-specific examples such as fusion punch lining up with Steelbreaker's melee swing) and that any comparison of tanks in the average case must also acknowledge that they have differing capacities to deal with the extreme damage that occurs in almost all boss fights in the current endgame.

Satorri
07-03-2009, 07:00 AM
All good and true points. Though, the reason I used the full damage window instead of clipping to when the initial damage is taken is two-fold:

1.) These are general swings meant to be captured from the middle of a fight, the window starting from when the previous swing was avoided, potentially.

2.) That time before damage is taken should not be discarded unless your healers are reactionary healers (i.e. they wait for you to take damage before they *start* casting heals). The strongest healers will have a heal in queue before you take the first hit, if they require a long cast time.

In general, the state of the game is not that we can reasonably survive 3 hits in a row from most of the highest end, hard hitting bosses without heals, regardless of how much health we stack. The required effective health is a very jagged graph with teeth the size of hits we take (starting at 10k usually, which is a massive jump in health for a tank).

I appreciate your desire to make thigs scary (you must be from the US =D), but I do think the term "spike damage" is abused nowadays. Technically all damage comes in single large hits, but none of it is truly 'spikes' compared to the expected incoming damage profile (the amplitude of the damage if you look at damage on a chart).


For tanks it's all a big balance, and generally the discussions on the boards make it seem far more significant whether you gear to EH or avoidance, than it actually is. I just want to present players with the information without adding all the adjectives and encounter specifics to scare them. People will get there and develop their strategies, and they will involve a lot of work from both healers and tanks. That's the fun part. =)

Tazncazper
07-03-2009, 12:16 PM
(370%, talented it is 492% or 403% *fact check please*)


Its 413% with talents and 415% with the meta

Satorri
07-04-2009, 05:36 AM
How did you get that amount? That's neither additive nor multiplicative.

Did you read it somewhere or just do math from your own gear?

Warwench
07-04-2009, 06:26 AM
this is a great post, it's extremely hard to follow however, but i think thats partly because of the immense scope of what you are trying to do.

blizzard needs to realise, all these numbers at the end of all this math, need to be the same. It;s not ok to have 3300vs 2900 incoming DPS, it's not ok to have 7000 health vs 8000 health.

Things, after all is said and done, have to be very similar. the mechanics have to be about the same complexity to use, the end results have to be about the same, damage taken, damage done, threat done, all gotta be about the same.

jere
07-04-2009, 06:56 AM
How did you get that amount? That's neither additive nor multiplicative.

Did you read it somewhere or just do math from your own gear?

If he is correct, it is additive:

DBF: 370%
TH: 10%
SotF: 33%
----------------
413%

Then 2% for meta

trezios
07-04-2009, 07:00 AM
In my opinion its extremely silly to place all 4 tanking classes in identical gear with different tier sets and base your calculations on that.

Each class should have multiple sets of tanking gear and choose the right combination of gear depending on the fight. Thus changing every single encounter based on the player's specific gear for that fight.

You've sort-of stated this, yet continue to post these calculations like they're fact, when they're based on unrealistic gearing.

Throwing math at stats doesn't mean its the correct math. This practice corrupts theorycrafting.

To "Staticise" (or to assume every raid encounter is static) is ignorant. You've basically done that.

In regard to "Warwench (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../members/warwench.html)" Blizzard has stated they want to keep each tanking class unique. Not homogenize them into the ground. If they were extremely similar, that would really defeat the point of having 4 tanking classes.

jere
07-04-2009, 07:24 AM
So I popped up my druid in healing gear (to get rid of enchants/etc.), but still in feral spec

Before bear form I have 2644 armor (184 of which is from agility). This value already has the Thick Hide modifier of 1.1 in it, so I haven't gone back to figure out, but I am fairly sure there is a 1.1 multiplier there.

In Dire Bear form, I have 15559 armor (again, 184 of which is from agility).

I have no items with bonus armor or armor enchants and no meta.

So (15559-184)/(2644-184) = 6.25 multiplier

That seemed high to me, so I started trying to play with the skills/talents: DBF = increases by 370% and SotF increases by 33%. But then I remembered that the wording of the dire bear tooltip said "increased by 370%. If it had said increased by 100%, we would have multiplied by 2, so 370% increase = 4.7

4.7*1.33 = 6.251

Maybe darksend can comment, but that seems to make the armor multiplier be:
4.7*1.33*1.1 = 6.8761.

I am assuming the meta is also a 1.02 multiplier, but wasn't able to test that.

From my character sheet stuff, they seem multiplicative.

Tazncazper
07-04-2009, 09:41 PM
How did you get that amount? That's neither additive nor multiplicative.

Did you read it somewhere or just do math from your own gear?


i just added

Bear Form 370%

Thick Hide 10%

SoTF 33%

is 413%

plus meta is 2%

Tazncazper
07-04-2009, 10:02 PM
I thought it may be possible, but I kept talking myself out of it because it seemed too good. Can anyone confirm?



I can post a WWS from a 25 naxx i did if u wanna check the numbers



I Just looked at the WWS and in the last 25 naxx I did Savage Defense was up 16% of the time with it being applied a total of 2,501



Also looked at a 10 ulduar I did last week and it was up 17% of the time for 1,677 times applied

Satorri
07-05-2009, 05:14 AM
Mmm, nice checking Jere. And sorry Taz, somehow I was leaving out a factor. /facepalm

So, multiplicative based on Jere's testing, factors:

Dire Bear Form (370% in tooltip) = 4.70

SotF increases the value in Bear form by 33%, so:

Talented Dire Bear Form = 6.251

Thick Hide will apply before the change (needs to be multiplicative), but since we only care about in Bear form, the full armor modifier (only applying to core gear, and not bonus armor, necks, rings, and trinkets, or weapons):

Fully talented Bear tank armor modifier = 6.876 (7.014 with Meta)

That's a multiplier of 588% (601% with meta)

Laborious, but if a couple other bear tanks could record their caster form armor, agility, bonus armor (rings/trinkets/necks/weapon), and their dire bear form armor, and provide that here, I'd appreciate that, just a couple should do fine for quick checks.

Satorri
07-05-2009, 05:38 AM
Warwrench, truthfully that's neither realistic nor necessary. There are two angles on why.

1.) Not every situation requires the same of a tank, that's why in the past different tank classes were much more specialized. Every was good at their niche and weaker than the others at theirs. Blizzards changes appreciate the fact that when you combine REALLY hard encounters with the requirement that you carry 4 different tank classes, you're shutting down more than 80% of the raiding community who likely cannot get all four tanking classes to the same level. Instead they wanted all the tanks to be able to tackle any encounter, not necessarily perfectly equally, but close enough that it won't be win or lose just based on what sort of tank you have in your group.

2.) The player factor heavily out-weighs the stats and the numbers game when it comes to fine differences. I'm a big fan of napkin math and approximation, you'll notice that's about 90% of what I do on the boards. I do not use simulators or complicated algorithms because in the 'reality' of gameplay the nuances of positioning, skill of the tank in using their abilities and their cooldowns, the distinctions of gear level (since we don't all have the same set of gear, smart tanks play to their strengths and the same class can be played more than one way), and the almighty power of latency combined with the somewhat random factors of scripts (not just the RNG) and pathing, all combine to make the 5% variabilities we math out in ideal circumstances with dumbed down numbers and simplifying equations, a small factor.

The funny thing is that the tanking classes, on paper, have all had roughly the same survivability through most of Wrath, the problem comes not from baseline, but from special situations and flaws in the assumptions Blizz made of players. Take DK's for example. Originally they wanted DKs to be CD driven, they were substantially squishier than other tanks at the base, but if you (took and) used your defensive CDs frequently, pretty much on CD, you would end up at the same level as other tanks. The problem, of course, is that only the more experienced tanks really understood how to do that, and even then, if you missed your window to apply your next CD, you'd be in danger of taking a much higher beating, whereas chaining CDs smartly could leave you with as little as 5-10 sec per minute with that added invulnerability. They wanted to fix this to make DK tanking a little less open to danger and inconsistency if players didn't master this little nuance. Thus our armor was bumped, and our CDs weakened.

Then came the almight Ulduar PTR Patchwerk test. The discovery was surprising. DKs were designed to be the 'avoidance' tank. Other tanks have heavier health/armor or the zippy block mechanism, but we were supposed to just plain avoid if we played well (i.e using both blood runes every 10 sec, Blizz assumed 100% uptime, rightly). The problem was that you could take a boss that scaled to infinity. As the hits became bigger and bigger, Block becomes insignificant, and armor/health become meaningless. It comes down to no tank being able to take 2 hits in a row. Suddenly the DK had a very noticeable advantage. Scroll to the previous page and look at the difference in taking 2 hits in a row for a tank with 50% avoidance next to one with 65% avoidance, and there was why our avoidance got pulled down.

Now we look at the current Live and PTR setups. Plainly put Blizz has tried to preserve our CDs somewhat without giving us TOO much uptime, IBF alone stands at a 1 min CD, others at 2 min, but they are arguably still stronger than any other class's single CDs. Next to that, even after pulling our armor back down to what it used to be on Frost Pres, we can still have more armor, more health, and our CDs next to the other classes (Bears can beat us on the first two pretty handily but their CD's are not nearly the same). So, we're getting a big baseline nerf stick.

Does it hurt? Yes, honestly I don't care about the armor, I'm only saddened by it because I've been working very hard as a meatshield tank which involves picking up gear piece after piece that adds 200 health here and 100 health there, and I've clawed my way up to over 37k before buffs. It feels good to see that payoff. This patch, even after I fix all my gems to epics, will still lose me 2k health. It makes things more even, sure, but I feel like all my work just became insignificant, all that I picked up just lost value and put me way back to months before.

I think Blizz is probably doing a fine thing to avoid DK dominance among the hardcore min/maxers who look at numbers like this thread's and say, "oop, sorry [warrior/druid] you're out, the DK's in" but I still shed a tear for my personal tank strategy getting hammered down. =)

Take all these theorycraftings with a grain of salt. The point of this thread is not to demonstrate dominance, even advantage (I don't believe there is one), the point is to demonstrate the basic class mechanics and what they are best suited to, maybe provide the information that will allow people to gear or play to their strengths, or allow them to be clever and find inventive ways to do things, now that they don't have to slog through the fundamentals with a calculator.

Tazncazper
07-05-2009, 12:57 PM
Caster Form armor= 9033
AGI= 980
stam= 1733
health= 24,567
Dodge= 30.20%
Defense= 418
that is in caster form

Armor
Rings= 490, 448
Trinket= 850
Back= 490
Neck= 336
Weapon= 714

Dire Bear form

29506

stam 2384
health 31,077

Dodge 40.20%


Let me kno if i forgot a factor

jere
07-05-2009, 01:34 PM
***stats***


That fits my results then.

The 490 cloak has 154 base armor (affected by DBF and SotF) and 336 bonus armor (not affected):

Bonus Armor : 2*980+490+448+850+336+336+714 = 5134 bonus armor.

9033-5134 = 3899 AC

DBF & SotF:
3899*6.251 = 24372.649

Final Bear Form:
24372.649 + 5134 = 29506.649

Satorri
07-06-2009, 05:51 AM
Sweet. Ilike having things figured out when that's possible, I'll ammend my original post.

Mawini
07-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Excellent thread, as usual.

I would like to note that although you would definitely be correct in stating that a warrior's shield slam does typically cause more damage than a paladin's Shield of Righteousness (especially when shield block is up), I do believe that the conversion of the damage to holy and the threat multiplication of holy damage through RF would put the threat value well ahead of the warrior's ability.

Satorri
07-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Actually, to that I have two things to point out:

1.) Righteous Fury is a frequently misunderstood spell. It increases the threat caused by "Holy spells." Note, this is the holy school of magic, not just spells that show up on the Holy spell tab in your spell book. (That's not being pointed out for you, that's for others who aren't familiar). I assume, since it does Holy damage and EVERYTHING a pally does seems to be in the holy school, that SoR is included.

2.) However, Righteous Fury is Paladins' answer to Warriors' passive threat bonus in Defensive stance. All tanks get the same multiplier in the end. Ultimately there is no comparison to draw between the two abilities because they are used by two separate classes and you will never be choosing between them.

jere
07-06-2009, 02:38 PM
As a note, RF fury does the following:

Increases threat generated by all holy damage attacks and healing spells by 2.717x

Increases all other damage by 1.43x

The tooltip says 1.9, which is correct, but all tanks get an invisible baked in 1.43 modifier as well, making it 1.9*1.43 = 2.717 multiplier for holy and a 1*1.43 = 1.43 for melee.

Healing spells generate 1/4 threat for paladins, so the multiplier for healing spells is 0.67925 (as opposed to .25 without RF).

It's all listed here:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/39761-some-paladin-threat-values.html

Mawini
07-06-2009, 02:51 PM
To my knowledge, all tanks do not get the same multiplier in the end.

RF actually has 2 components.

Similar to defensive stance's 1.495 multiplier (with defiance), RF has a base threat multiplier of 1.429. This applies to white damage and any school magic damage done by the paladin. Additionally, there is a 1.9 threat multiplier on holy damage alone. These total to a 2.717 threat multiplier for holy damage.

Hence the significant difference in threat output from the 'shield slam' from each class, even when factoring in shield slam's innate threat value (which I could find documented nowhere, but would assume to be sub-500). I believe the design of this greater scaling was due to the warrior class having so many innate threat abilities and paladins having essentially none, but I cannot confirm what the guys at Blizzard were thinking.

Edit:
Looks like I'm too slow. Heh.

jere
07-06-2009, 03:03 PM
To my knowledge, all tanks do not get the same multiplier in the end.

RF actually has 2 components.

Similar to defensive stance's 1.495 multiplier (with defiance), RF has a base threat multiplier of 1.429. This applies to white damage and any school magic damage done by the paladin. Additionally, there is a 1.9 threat multiplier on holy damage alone. These total to a 2.717 threat multiplier for holy damage.

Hence the significant difference in threat output from the 'shield slam' from each class, even when factoring in shield slam's innate threat value (which I could find documented nowhere, but would assume to be sub-500). I believe the design of this greater scaling was due to the warrior class having so many innate threat abilities and paladins having essentially none, but I cannot confirm what the guys at Blizzard were thinking.

Edit:
Looks like I'm too slow. Heh.

Warriors also get the 1.43 baked in salv multiplier as well, making their multiplier around 2.0735x rather than 1.495. Also, remember that the 2.717x multiplier for paladins only applies to our holy damage portion. Our melee damage is a significant chunk of our DPS, but because it doesn't get the full RF benefit, the threat for melee is much smaller in comparison to the rest of our threat sources. The warrior stance multiplier applies to all warrior threat equally and warriors still have some baked in innate threat values (which paladins don't typically). I.E. the values work out pretty close in the wash.

Check the warrior threat guide for more info:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html

Mawini
07-06-2009, 03:15 PM
Thanks, that's why I read this site.

Satorri
07-06-2009, 06:02 PM
And Frost Pres for DK's is a solid 2.0735 multiplier the same as Warriors, applied to all threat (healing included, though our healing is the standard half-threat divided among all enemies).

DK Threat Values can be found here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/40485-death-knight-threat-values.html)

Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

Maelstrom
07-06-2009, 07:17 PM
Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

To stop wacky situations where you could hold aggro by standing still and healing yourself ("PLATE AND HEALS, WTF"). Although it doesn't seem enormously feasible now, it's more of an old-world solution to an old-world problem :).

jere
07-06-2009, 08:15 PM
Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

Yep (not considering RF that is). It's been that way since forever (original beta maybe? been so long ago that I cannot remember now).

Jaydn
07-07-2009, 04:51 AM
Heyho, you've forgotten the Glyph of Salvation :)

Glyph of Salvation - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45747)

It's been used from a lot of progress-paladins for another CD. The lost thread isn't a big problem with a cancelaura-macro or the bigger threat-generation

Greetings

Satorri
07-07-2009, 06:03 AM
First page Jaydn, first massive post in the discussion on Pally mechanics. =)

And thank you Maelstrom and Jere, you learn something new every day! It makes sense when you think about it, especially in old world content/spells/gear. Now it's a little stickier to try to heal tank, particularly since avoidance has become as big a feature as it is, and you cannot avoid while casting (SO glad they took the cast time off Avenger's Shield).

DwayneDibley
07-07-2009, 08:29 AM
A very interesting thread (although I must admit to have not reading it all word for word).

You don't seme to highlight the fact that all classes have a de-haste ability, yet only warriors and druid have an attack power debuff. Paladins will be getting an AP debuff in 3.2, but DK's are being left out in the cold on this one.

Another thing when comparing CD's is the cost of using them. Most DK CD's have a runic power or rune cost for using, which can mean you can't always pop one when you want to, or you need to be conservative with your resources. If memory serves me correctly, warriors for example have no resource requirements on their cooldowns (ie. 20 rage for last stand/shield wall).

Your comparisons are very interesting, but I bet the one most people would want to see is a comparison of EH of the 6 classes in T8 loot after the 3.2 patch. This could include the guaranteed reductions from blocking factored into the calculation.

GravityDK
07-08-2009, 01:14 AM
Hell of a read, I'm about half-way through, but quite useful. I learned about warriors (never played one).

Interesting you decided to generalise Unholy tanks into 'avoidance' tank. Obviously that's because their big cooldown gains so much from avoidance, rather than them having any more to begin with (because Frost DKs have more).

Satorri
07-08-2009, 06:52 AM
There are two slightly weird things that I didn't really come to realize until I started digging in to it:

1.) It's a fine distinction, but Bone Shield is not actually improved by avoidance. It's duration is prolonged, but it will not actually take any more hits. The increase in survival you get from the extra avoidance, is just from the avoidance itself. In general, Bone Shield is strongest when you are taking multiple sources of damage in very short time spans (i.e. trash or multiple source stacked hits like Frozen Blows).

2.) Frost gets more avoidance, but avoidance actually reduces the effectiveness of Unbreakable Armor. Again, the avoidance is giving you more survival value than you lose on the CD, but it's something to consider if you are a Frost tank stacking avoidance, or if you are in the habit of popping an avoidance trinket-effect when you use UA.


I call Unholy knights avoidance tanks, of course, as you said, not because they have more, but because they of all DK's want to be hit the least. They don't have Frost's shear passive mitigation, nor Blood's potent heal reactions to damage, they only have their Shield that will soak a limited number of hits, then they are as squishy as they come. More avoidance does mean you have a longer window where Bone Shield will be up when it matters, and will limit the windows where it just isn't available.

Leechkin
07-08-2009, 10:22 AM
1.) It's a fine distinction, but Bone Shield is not actually improved by avoidance. It's duration is prolonged, but it will not actually take any more hits. The increase in survival you get from the extra avoidance, is just from the avoidance itself. In general, Bone Shield is strongest when you are taking multiple sources of damage in very short time spans (i.e. trash or multiple source stacked hits like Frozen Blows).

This is correct, but only a limited view of the strength of bone shield. An avoidance value of 60% will almost always result in actual avoidance of 60%, but it doesn't determine when you are avoiding. The strength in bone armor is that none of its mitigation is wasted in avoidance. While this might not seem like much, I had one instance of tanking thorim where I avoided every attack for the duration of my vampiric embrace. My avoidance for the whole fight was not any higher than normal, I just got extremely unlucky (lucky?). This is an extreme, but it highlights how bone shield retains its value as avoidance increases while other CD's diminish in value.

Jaydn
07-08-2009, 09:30 PM
First page Jaydn, first massive post in the discussion on Pally mechanics. =)


Ah sorry, i've forgot: its missing in the summary in post #2.

You just say: "They can Hand of Salvation to reduce friendlies' threat on a 2 min CD" but it's a normal tanking cooldown, like divine protection or LoH

Satorri
07-09-2009, 05:51 AM
Well, it's not quite like them, not everyone takes it, that section is for baseline stuff everyone has by default. It does have a drawback for use. It does merit mention of course, which it gets. =)

GravityDK
07-09-2009, 06:12 AM
This is an extreme, but it highlights how bone shield retains its value as avoidance increases while other CD's diminish in value.

Yeah, that's a good one-liner on it.

Jaydn
07-09-2009, 06:54 AM
Well, it's not quite like them, not everyone takes it, that section is for baseline stuff everyone has by default. It does have a drawback for use. It does merit mention of course, which it gets. =)

Hum, not one tankadin i know has improved lay on hands, but i think it's ok how it is. Patch 3.2 will chance a lot.

But your work is great, thank you :)

Satorri
07-28-2009, 03:52 PM
bumping to keep data handy