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View Full Version : Thorim: Rogues should I spec throwing specializat?



Flang
05-27-2009, 07:53 AM
I had an argument with someone on another forum, and so I figured instead of continuing the argument, I would pose the argument to those on this forum.

Make your rogues spec Thrown Specialization and you'll have almost no spells being cast in arena ^^

Right... and totally gimp their ability to do damage on the other 95% of raid content. No thanks. http://www.mmowned.com/forums/images/smilies/yuck.gif

Ever heard of Dualspec?

Are you serious? So you are suggestioning someone should:

(a) waste $1k gold so they can beat 1 boss in Ulduar
OR
(b) waste one of their two specs on 1 boss in Ulduar

Both are equally retarded, especially when it isn't going to guarantee a win. Fail advice is fail. Rationalizing is almost just as bad. http://www.mmowned.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I'm sorry but if you think dual spec is a waste, or rogues with the imp FoK spec is bad, you are terrible at this game, when you're top 25 US then you can talk about strats kid.

Learn to read. I never stated dual spec is a waste. It's a waste to dual spec, just for one talent just to down phase 1 of one boss, which doesn't even guarantee a kill. Dual specing, for one phase, for one fight is asinine.

Secondly, there is no way any serious raiding rogue would put FoK in their spec. I dare you to post such a suggestion on any serious raiding forum, and link the post here. The only time that is ever suggested is when people are being sarcastic or joking around. This is how a real combat rogue's PVE spec looks like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0xZMgVoxcxoru0xRtx)

Lastly, it's ironic you are suggesting I be in a 'top 25' guild before talking strats, as if any of top guilds need special tricks to beat this bos. Please... Thorim phase 1 isn't even hard to begin with. You don't need tricks to beat it. Mass dispel + AOE = a joke fight. The only time it even remotely becomes difficult is hard mode 25m. However... that's phase 2... not phase 1. I mean seriously, what's next... suggesting we start specing prep on some bosses too? Let's get real here.

L2P 'kid', before spreading misinformation.

So your guild wipes on yogg and you think you're good, sorry that's not how it is, you're terrible at this game, having a rogue with imp FoK makes it a lot easier for the rest of the arena group, specifically when doing hard mode (The thing that requires skill that you will never do) making P2 a lot easier, considering your healers won't be oom for healing dps that's taking extra damage from mobs being up to long from heals getting through.

I'm sorry your terrible guild can't get anywheres, no reason to rip people who bring up good ideas to make boss fights easier by the means of exploits. Either way, go drink some bleach, these forums would be a lot better if you did that.

At this point I just lolwtf'ed... and decided to post the conversation here. Was I being a bit arrogant? Sure. However, I simply am not a fan of misinformational posts.

xKhellendrosx
05-27-2009, 07:57 AM
Honestly on my rogue for dualspec I actually have one spec for most bosses 7/51/13 and another spec just for trash/interupts with 18/53, with a glyph for FoK in the offspec.

Having that cast interuption is seriously helpful for Thorim, Razorscales add phase, and Iron Council on Brundir. Essentially the only thing the rogue would be missing going 18/53 is Relentless strikes which will hurt their dps some, but it will not be impossible to overcome.

timtim89
05-27-2009, 08:50 AM
Well i havnt done Thorim yet but im sure u have more than one rogue raiding with you so ask him to start kicking the casts since u will need to be close to the mob to do Fan of Knifes and Deadly Throw.

Well thats my two cents:cool:

Akeber
05-27-2009, 11:13 AM
If you're way of thinking is "personal dps">"speccing for something to help kill the boss" then you're argument is 100% correct.

One of our rogues is always specced for throwing specialization for the very reason that it helps out in a few encounters, more than making up for the loss in personal DPS.

Killing the boss > topping the meters.

Grishmaluk
05-30-2009, 06:02 PM
can't even believe this conversation... a rogue with throwing specialization will not gimp his dps. the dps loss is way less significant than the blue guy seems to think, in fact, I have even dropped a point in precision to get the 100% bonus, though that doesn't stop me from topping the damage done. bottom-line, it's a reaaaally good talent, both on thorim and yogg-saron. If you know how to play rogue, you know this too. nuff said. oh yeah, it's in my main specc aswell, along with the FoK-glyph, to boost damage on yogg.

Zeider
05-31-2009, 04:10 AM
-deleted

Grishmaluk
05-31-2009, 02:12 PM
Is speccing into Throwing Specialization a bad suggestion? According to my spreadsheet, I lose 35 dps if I switch one point from precision. That's 0,5%dps... that means nothing. On Thorim, Yogg-saron, Razorscale and Iron Council it's waay more important to interrupt good than do 35 more dps. People need to understand that playstyle>specc and gear for dps.

Kaad
05-31-2009, 02:20 PM
I really hope everyone here is trolling this since it is such a bad suggestion.
I'll draw your attention to the posting contract you agreed on in order to post on this site

Have respect for fellow members' viewpoints. Just because you don't agree with what someone has said is no reason to insult them. This goes equally for the ever-cliche if you do X, you're bad. Explain why it's a bad idea instead of the ad hominem attack.

and then... I say why not have it in a dual spec? that's what the rogues in my guild do, simply to use in the encounters where it could be useful (razorscale and thorim mostly).

interrupting a hundred spells is nothing to complain about.

Zeider
05-31-2009, 03:01 PM
So where in my post did I call this person bad, I merely stated that, in my opinion as a raiding rogue, I did not find this to be a suggestion that should be taken seriously. At no point did I insult anyone.

Also, since I assume you want me to be more constructive on this I will.

35dps is the equivalent if not a bit more of upgrading a piece of Naxx gear for a piece of Ulduar gear. This also does not account for you adding FoK to your rotation, this would cause a few things to happen, you drop your rupture or SnD due to lack of energy of using FoK to interrupt things that will not cause your raid to wipe or instead of a FoK you could of used another cp builder. This results in far more of a dps loss then a meager 35dps from your spreadsheet, and will lead to your under performance of your main role, which is doing damage to a single target (except on Vezax, where we get to keep the raid from dieing via kick).

Grishmaluk
06-01-2009, 07:37 AM
So where in my post did I call this person bad, I merely stated that, in my opinion as a raiding rogue, I did not find this to be a suggestion that should be taken seriously. At no point did I insult anyone.

Also, since I assume you want me to be more constructive on this I will.

35dps is the equivalent if not a bit more of upgrading a piece of Naxx gear for a piece of Ulduar gear. This also does not account for you adding FoK to your rotation, this would cause a few things to happen, you drop your rupture or SnD due to lack of energy of using FoK to interrupt things that will not cause your raid to wipe or instead of a FoK you could of used another cp builder. This results in far more of a dps loss then a meager 35dps from your spreadsheet, and will lead to your under performance of your main role, which is doing damage to a single target (except on Vezax, where we get to keep the raid from dieing via kick).
You are talking words of truth. Of course I'm not spamming FoK on every encounter. On Thorims addphase and on Yogg-sarons phase 1 and 3 I am however. Though I guess I wouldn't do it on yoggie if not for the Throwing specialization. On yogg phase 3 you usually have 2-3 immortal guardians up. Those casts "Drain Life" FoK+TSpc is IMBA for interrupting it. Plus when there's 3 targets or more FoK does more damage than single target. I also hit Yogg-saron with the FoK, which tbh can't be bad either. I hope you now see the logic in speccing it. Especially for Yogg-saron.

Brucimus
06-01-2009, 09:27 AM
People with shit attitudes like this Zeider guy is why the Worldofwarcraft.com forums are unreadable.

Did you really come to the forums to find a bunch of people who agree with your viewpoints?

Zeider
06-01-2009, 03:39 PM
Apparently reading comprehension is a hard thing to come by these days. I am not looking to push my view point onto others, or even "Bringing my shitty attitude", I am simply stating that from the research I have done and from my experiences in all of these Ulduar fights, this seems to be a unnecessary dps loss.

So please, stop attacking me personally and try to not derail the thread.

@grishmaluk. It is true that you get more overall damage when using FoK on 3+ targets, but when you're trying to burn an add down quickly FoK isn't normally the best option. Think of it like this, you're hitting everything around you for about 7-9k after a FoK (taking into consideration that both weapons crit with a wound poison going off as well) for 50 energy. You may be able to get 2, 3 at most of these off before that mob dies, so that's about 16-19k give or take from FoK. Now lets look at SS + Evisc, say you get 2-3 SS's off on an add, and a 2-5 point Evisc off, for me that is roughly 6-7k a SS, and 8-11k evisc (remember you have a damage buff during Yogg) 20-35k damage, in the time that you do 16-19k with FoK.
Note, these were numbers off the top of my head, I'll check my guilds WWS when we kill yogg tonight.

Grishmaluk
06-01-2009, 03:57 PM
Yes of course. However you can't kick more than one target every ten seconds. With FoK You get those fast interrupts on EVERY Life Drain, instantly. I have the PoV where I feel that my single target DPS won't be the thing needed for us to down the boss. However my very fast life drain-aoe interrupts can be just that. And the damage is a good bonus to that. Today we downed yoggie for the first time, and I want to believe that my fast and reliable interrupts was one factor in that kill.

Also I have a little fun fact to share. On Auriaya, you can actually interrupt the Sentinel Blast CAST thanks to the lag effect on the interrupt. If you FoK in the end of the fear cast, the interrupt will actually occur at the beginning of the Sentinel Blast cast, even if you're feared meanwhile. I Could show how I mean with a movie on wednesday.

Churles
06-01-2009, 04:33 PM
Yes of course. However you can't kick more than one target every ten seconds. With FoK You get those fast interrupts on EVERY Life Drain, instantly.

Your not the only one on the adds and interrupting everything should not be your focus. Dpsing the add down so they don't hit the tanks as hard and getting back to yogg is what you should look to do.


Also I have a little fun fact to share. On Auriaya, you can actually interrupt the Sentinel Blast CAST thanks to the lag effect on the interrupt.

I would hope that you have at least one warrior in the raid who berserker rage's the fear and pummels/shield bashes it.


As stated before, a rogue's job is to do single target dps, so I would stop lowering your damage, to help on fights that should already be easy enough to deal with.

Zeider
06-01-2009, 05:54 PM
Not sure how other guilds do Auriaya, but our MT doesn't get feared and interrupts every sentinel blast, which is way more reliable than hoping you can get it via a bug/lag.

Rak
06-01-2009, 10:53 PM
Interrupting the drain life is only required so you can position the mobs properly in my experience. The actual amount of healing from it is very trivial. You need constant single target burst to stay ahead (having 3 guardians up is bad), and in our raids typically the tanks interrupt almost all of the life drains just so we don't have to take longer to position them.

On Auriaya, as said, warriors handle the interrupt every time because it's reliable.

In the Thorim arena, you need to burn individual mobs quickly and you can stunlock all of them so heals aren't a factor to begin with. Even doing hard mode, interrupts have never been any kind of issue because they just aren't that difficult, but on the other hand sometimes we don't have enough single target burst to keep things under control and have to better balance the group for that.

Grishmaluk
06-02-2009, 06:24 AM
Of course you can kill Thorim, Auriaya and Yogg-Saron without the interrupts. However I'm talking about ways to make the fights easier, not harder. If you interrupt say 50 times in Thorims Arena:
Runic Lightning: 45 yd range, 1.5 sec cast; strikes an enemy with a blast of runic lightning, inflicting 7875 to 10125 Nature damage. and
Runic Mending: 40 yd range, 2 sec cast; heals an ally for 18500 to 21500, then heals for an additional 6000 every 1 sec for 15 sec.
it would count for more than the percent I miss. I usually FoK spam the whole add phase, with my autoattacks on the Champion when he's down. It usually works out dandy.

On Yogg-Saron I'm not so experienced I guess.. perhaps the single target DPS would work out better, even if I feel that attacking the assigned add with autoattacks and FoK+(interrupting every drain life), the second add with FoK+(interrupting every drain life) and Yogg-Saron with FoK does more damage. If there's only one add up though I don't FoK for logical reasons. And since we never were out of adds I don't know how to reply to that :P

On Auriaya I guess I just do it because it's super easy... it's super easy for the warrior too, sure, but just in case :P

Akeber
06-02-2009, 07:59 AM
Why is it that every dps class seems to scoff when you ask them to stop trying to top the meters and do something that will benefit the raid. There are/have been/will be lots of things that are done on boss fights that reduce an individual's dps/damage done that is strategically beneficial to the raid as a whole. Anything that helps get a progression kill is good, despite whatever personal DPS loss you may see.

Kazeyonoma
06-02-2009, 08:14 AM
Hey.

This isn't the wow forums. Take your shitty attitudes and personal attacks out of here.

Spec what your raid wants you to. If you want to do it for the good of the raid at a loss of DPS more power to you. If your raid needs your single dps to be higher, then so be it.

Closed.