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View Full Version : is Block THAT bad?



J4yk
05-26-2009, 05:17 PM
well, i have been raiding some naxx and OS lot in my block value set, it started mostly because its fun to see the 12k shield slams, but looking through my logs it realy provides a pretty good amount of mitigation, im sitting at about 1800 BV or so un-buffed, and ive been seeing some prety high blocks 4-6k area sometimes as much as 9k. and when i think of 9k damage mitigated before armor sounds good to me. is it really that bad?

Rhyseh
05-26-2009, 05:30 PM
The problem with block is that in order to get it into values that will actually help you have to sacrifice a number of other stats to get there and although those big critical blocks are nice they are not a reliable form of mitigation and will happen infrequently, giving the warrior the image of being spikey, which is harder to heal.

Hengist
05-27-2009, 12:32 AM
Block isn't bad, its just worse than alternatives - if you get stamina instead, you will increase your time to live in a more reliable way, without any random factor, also stamina helps against magic damage too. If you would get armor instead, you will still mitigate only physical damage, but it would be 100% reliable and scaling with the strength of hit - while block is very good at mitigating small hits, it is not small hits which usually kill tanks, but huge bursts of damage. In Naxx incoming damage isn't really high, so you can block the solid % of it, but in Ulduar block becomes silly.

Kerchunk
05-29-2009, 06:32 PM
It's easy to illustrate the issue with Block.

Imagine Block absorbed 100% of all damage 50% of the time.
Imagine Generic ability absorbs 50% of all damage 100% of the time.
Imagine a boss that hits for 50k.

The Warrior tank will go something like this:
Hit for 0.
Healed for 0.
Hit for 0.
Healed for 0.
Hit for 50,000 and killed.

The Generic tank will go something like this:
Hit for 25k.
Healed for 25k.
Hit for 25k.
Healed for 25k.
Hit for 25k.

etc., etc.

The problem with Block isn't the AMOUNT of mitigation, it's the reliability and predictability. We have no control over when or if we will block, so relying on block to keep us alive is basically just like flipping a coin over and over hoping it will keep coming up heads.

Lizana
05-29-2009, 06:46 PM
To better illustrate the point...

Think of blocking an attack as the same as being shot in the kneecap... Not bad enough to kill you but it still freaking hurts...

Avoidance is just avoiding the bullet... and EH is having a couple buddies in between you and the shooter to soften the blow and reduce the chance you will die...

Martie
05-30-2009, 07:09 AM
I've been disappointed at block too recently, though it still has its uses.

In 10man Ulduar, for example, I volunteered to go on adds during our ignis and Razorscale tries, and my blocking helped a lot.

And by a lot I mean that it almost completely negated the damage they dealt - the XT bots were doing no damage on a block, the ignis bots were doing double digit damage on a block, and I was blocking about all their blows.

Of course, this is a very specific situation, and using a block set for some adds is weird. Still, when going for achievements, it can be helpfull if you need fewer healers.

Pluekiller
05-30-2009, 07:51 AM
The Warrior tank will go something like this:
Hit for 0.
Healed for 0.
Hit for 0.
Healed for 0.
Hit for 50,000 and killed.


Isn't this a model for avoidance?

Warwench
05-30-2009, 08:30 AM
it's a model for anything that works 100%, some of the time.

Blizz needs to ignore block as it's own mechanism and just take a step back and say.

Do all the tanks have roughly the same chance to avoid 100% of the damage from an attack ?

if they get hit, do all the tanks reduce roughly the same % of incoming damage?

do all the tanks have the same number of cool downs that modify either incoming damage the same, or modify chance to take damage at all teh same?

then they can set about making those things roughly equal, in uniqe and interesting ways.

There are a few ways to make 5, 5+0, 1+4, 2+3, etc etc.. same as there are many ways to add flavor to classes to have them do the same things in the end.

in the end, the classes need to have roughly the same number being subtracted over time from their HP.

They really need to take a look at what numbers their encounters call for, and then adjust all the classes in diff ways to get to that.

Bung
05-30-2009, 09:47 AM
I have a block set and an avoidance set. I only use the block set in situations where the physical damage is always 4k or less. So heroics (except bosses). Trash in naxx and Loetheb fight. Rest of the time i'm in avoidance gear.

protonly
05-30-2009, 03:51 PM
The problem with Block isn't the AMOUNT of mitigation, it's the reliability and predictability. We have no control over when or if we will block, so relying on block to keep us alive is basically just like flipping a coin over and over hoping it will keep coming up heads.

Well the amount of mitigation is only part of the problem. Unless the warrior critically blocks and has shield block up then the odds are the warrior isn't blocking anything harder than a wet fart. The only way for block to have value is for the blocked value to be high relative to the attack blocked.

The 9k block is great but you're relying on a proc and a buff. Static avoidance/mitigation should never assume procs or buffs, even if they are self buffed (unless the self buff is non-expiring and non-expellable like a stance). It's great but I'd rather dodge the attack myself :D

orcstar
05-30-2009, 04:00 PM
then the odds are the warrior isn't blocking anything harder than a wet fart.
You've poisoned me:
From now on, Loatheb will be known as the boss of many wet farts :P
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Ok guys: who's up for tanking old wet farty?

Odok
06-01-2009, 02:51 PM
I dunno. If you can reach the unhittable cap with block then block effectively translates into bonus armor, which is extremely helpful.

I don't think anyone is really downplaying block. It's just that you usually end up having to choose between block and dodge/parry, and dodge/parry is just the better thing to itemize.

Molohk
06-01-2009, 03:12 PM
I dunno. If you can reach the unhittable cap with block then block effectively translates into bonus armor, which is extremely helpful.

This is just not the case because block mitigates a flat ammount while armor mitigates a percentage of the unmitigated hit. So unlike armor, this means block is less effective the harder you're getting hit. Becoming unhittable does overcome the disadvantage of the block RNG, but that's not the only disadvantage of block.

That being said, block isn't terrible, you just can't rely on it to save your butt on the hardest fights in the same way you can rely on avoidance or armor.

Odok
06-01-2009, 03:43 PM
This is just not the case because block mitigates a flat ammount while armor mitigates a percentage of the unmitigated hit. So unlike armor, this means block is less effective the harder you're getting hit. Becoming unhittable does overcome the disadvantage of the block RNG, but that's not the only disadvantage of block.

That being said, block isn't terrible, you just can't rely on it to save your butt on the hardest fights in the same way you can rely on avoidance or armor.

Yeah but armor scales exponentially up to a point that warriors can never hope to reach compared to a feral tank, for example. Block helps to bridge that gap a bit. Most warrior tanks are around, eh, 64% reduction fully buffed. I have around 1500 black value. Against a 20k hit, that's around 0.75% damage reduction. That's the equivalent of ~1000 armor. On a critical block that doubles.

I won't disagree that the RNG is what really bends block over though. I'd much rather take a guaranteed 200 armor or 200 health over the possibility of blocking more.