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Karisita
05-26-2009, 01:25 PM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&n=Karisita)

My healers were complaining when I was on the first boss in the spider wing of Naxx, and when I had to pick up and OT against Archaevon, that I was too squishy... my TPS is more than adequate, I haven't had anyone but a 3k dps mage once pulled off of me... I'm starting heroics and have 6 emblems at the moment, if I could get my guild together I could probably do one a day, or maybe 3 or 4 on the weekend (not both) so I suppose I can reasonably attain between 9 and 30 emblems a week. (wide spread, I know.)

I don't do PvP for personal reasons, so unless the benefits are just completely undeniable, it's probably best not to suggest I pvp.

Is there anything particularly wrong with my spec, or any suggestions on gear to get me up to par as quickly as possible?

Taninor
05-26-2009, 01:38 PM
First things first, your not crit immune. You need to be at 540 defense.

Taninor
05-26-2009, 01:43 PM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12354807336&sid=1 (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=44188)

is a very good pre naxx gearing guide, i suggest you follow it. You have a lot of holes in your gear.

Bastien
05-26-2009, 02:12 PM
First things first, your not crit immune. You need to be at 540 defense.

530 defense is sufficient for heroic 5-mans. 540 minimum for Naxx and later raids.

Taninor
05-26-2009, 02:31 PM
530 defense is sufficient for heroic 5-mans. 540 minimum for Naxx and later raids.

He's running nax, which is a raid zone. He'll need 540 defense to tank and ot raid bosses.

Bastien
05-26-2009, 02:56 PM
... I'm starting heroics ....

It's a bit vague. Either way, his armory is showing 501 defense, so he's got some work to do to get to the minimum.

Karisita
05-26-2009, 06:10 PM
Well thanks to your pre-naxx build list and what little gold I had laying around, I'm now up to 519 def, but yes, I've got a little ways to go... I've gone through heroic HoL several times, though I've yet to be able to find a group to go anywhere else. Thanks to Wrath, there's tanks dime a dozen in my server where they used to be rare. So it's hard to find a group now. I appreciate your advice, and I'm gonna try to keep building off of this list. (though I've got a few epic crafted items, that the list doesn't have, like my Titansteel Helm, titansteel bonecrusher, Titansteel sheild wall... but the rest of the def rating should come soon, granted that I can get the money for it.

Minibell
05-27-2009, 04:06 AM
At 519, as mentioned that's not def "capped" for heroics. Grind HOL (regular, not heroic) for the seal, and enchant/gem for defense, even over stam at this point. You're missing a def weapon, the one I used for a long time was from the Flipper quest in Zul'Drak. It's less dps, but more def/avoid, which for you is clearly more important at this time. Also you can pick up the JC crafted ring and necklace, which are fairly cheap now depending on the Dragon Eye cost on your server. Also you're a BS without the extra gem slots, which is kinda criminal in my book, enjoy the fruits of your grind! ;)

Once you get 535, grind the easier heroic dungeons (UK, VH, etc) for badges to fill in the rest of your gear.

Karisita
05-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Mini - reason I didn't have the extra gem slots was because you caught me in the middle of changing my wrists, I actually gemmed them this morning with the solid sky sapphire, which is ... well... pretty much every gem I have. Together with enchants and some more of the gear upgrades I found on one of the replies, I don't need to ditch my titansteel bonecrusher, which from what I've read is one of the best weaps I can get outside of raid content.

But in a related question, what's the DPS benchmark for 10 man naxx? I'm RLing my guild's first attempts and I need to know where the cutoff is, as me and my assistant both have very very different numbers.

NecroNetics
05-28-2009, 12:03 AM
Mini - reason I didn't have the extra gem slots was because you caught me in the middle of changing my wrists, I actually gemmed them this morning with the solid sky sapphire, which is ... well... pretty much every gem I have. Together with enchants and some more of the gear upgrades I found on one of the replies, I don't need to ditch my titansteel bonecrusher, which from what I've read is one of the best weaps I can get outside of raid content.

But in a related question, what's the DPS benchmark for 10 man naxx? I'm RLing my guild's first attempts and I need to know where the cutoff is, as me and my assistant both have very very different numbers.

1500+ is what I try to look for.

Fetzie
05-28-2009, 04:10 AM
But in a related question, what's the DPS benchmark for 10 man naxx? I'm RLing my guild's first attempts and I need to know where the cutoff is, as me and my assistant both have very very different numbers.

Patchwerk is kind of the dps benchmark in naxx, you either can kill him, or you cant. If you cannot kill him, you will not complete abomination wing, and you will therefore also not kill kel thuzad. If you have the dps to kill him within the berserk timer, you have the raw dps at least to clear the place.

in 10 man he has 4 320 000 health on a 6 minute berserk timer. This means your raid needs 12000 raid dps to kill him (4 320 000 health/360 seconds).

Starting out your tanks will do around 1300 dps, and you have two of these. Therefore your dps need to cover 9400 dps.

If you take 5 dps and 3 healers they therefore need to do at least 1880 dps each.

If you take 6 dps and two healers the dps need to do 1567 dps each.

Bear in mind that a fresh 80 with raid buffs should be doing at LEAST 1700-2000 on this stationary dps burn.

I hope this could help.

Karisita
05-28-2009, 07:16 AM
That's great, thanks guys. With a little tweak to our hunter we've got her performing around 1500 active, 1750 stationary, up from 800. It took me quite some time to convince her to look at her spec and shot rotations to make sure she was maximizing her dps... *mutters* But she almost doubled her DPS by respeccing, without any gear changes. WOOT!

And this will settle the debate with my co-worker with me on the winning side. :D Thanks guys!

Theotherone
05-28-2009, 09:34 AM
Couple suggestions - get rep with Argent Crusade for the head enchant and with Sons of Hodir for the shoulder enchant. Rule of thumb is 4 defense = 1 defense rating (I know it's 4 and change, but the coversion is close enough for governement work); right now you're at 516 defesne rating which means you need to beg, borrow and steal about 96 defense to get to 540. Enchant your chest for defense = 22; Titanweave your cloak for 16; Argent head enchat = 20 (I think); Hodir = 20; grind reg HoL to get Seal of Pahtheon it drops off first boss so kill, reset, kill again etc = 64 defense; socket bracers and gloves and gem 16 def each (Thick Autumns Glow); you're real close and can get over the top with a little effort and creative enchanting/gemming.

Then you can farm the heroics Iron Dwarf Paultrons from H HoL (again first boss), etc.

Good luck.

Astemus
05-28-2009, 10:32 AM
I actually gemmed them this morning with the solid sky sapphire, which is ... well... pretty much every gem I have.

I'll try and be as nice as I can about this, but you may be reading that tanks should be gemming for stamina for ULDUAR... Not starting out as a tank. People in game may be obsessed about your health, but they are assuming you are meeting the minimum requirements to tank, which you are not. You need to ditch all those stamina gems and put defense in. Also, you should have the defense meta gem not the stamina one. You need to walk before you can run, and you're crawling with that gear.



I don't need to ditch my titansteel bonecrusher, which from what I've read is one of the best weaps I can get outside of raid content.

No, you never read that, maybe for a rogue... who knows about them though. No one who has ever tanked would tell you that. Ditch it like it's cursed, I'm serious. That was a pure waste of gold, you might as well sell it to a vendor. There is NO WAY you should ever use that again. Seriously. Sell it. Like, now.


I'm RLing my guild's first attempts and I need to know where the cutoff is, as me and my assistant both have very very different numbers.

This is gonna sound mean, but you have no business in naxx yet. You are severely lacking in gear, not to mention obviously reading the wrong websites. Do you and your guild a favor, and go back to normal dungeons to get your rep up and find some decent gear, then move to heroics. THEN maybe think about naxx. Trust me, if you go to naxx the way you are now, you're going to do nothing but ruin everyone's night, unless for some reason you have 3 overgeared healers spamming you and some brilliant DPS.

And seriously, titansteel bonecrusher? Really? I hope you've already taken that thing off. People are laughing at you when they inspect you.

Karisita
05-30-2009, 08:07 PM
Brutal.

But there is some good advice here.

However given that my blade of the empty void and hammer of quiet mourning are both gone now when I replaced them with the bonecrusher, maybe you could give some advice of what to replace it with.

Let me counter with a little advice for you. Being an asshat isn't impressing anyone.

Moving on, theotherone, thanks, I'll be making these updates, and hopefully you'll see me staunchly ignoring Astemus being in Naxx and other ten mans within the next week or two...

Warwench
05-30-2009, 08:50 PM
I think his advice was pretty spot on considering a 20 minutes spent reading the required threads on this site would set you straight.

Start here --> http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41907-frequently-asked-questions.html

Then here --> http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f206/41778-encounter-locations-recommended-raid-progression.html (pay close attention to the raid zones you should be trying before naxx, ie Arch and Sarth)

This is a must have --> http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/41986-cider-s-easy-540-defense-gear-guide.html

Then this --> http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/40491-wotlk-prot-warrior-guide.html

and lastly, everyone in your raid should watch all the movies on the site for each encounter you plan to do. Everyone.

when you've read all that, you should have a fair idea of what needs to be fixed, so fix it. Come back and ask more questions as you go along.

unless you do some of your own home work, and put in the effort to learn yourself, your only going to get harsh replies to any really basic questions you ask..

As for weps, the Flipper quest, or the Infantry Assault Blade, or H UP last boss.

Karisita
05-30-2009, 09:17 PM
The first several responses were simply advice and info, which I was more than happy to receive. And a level of harshness I'm prepared to accept, and even your own post has an edge to it, it's blunt and honest, but I've got no problem with it. I spent all my time researching boss abilities, damage, gimicks, etc. I never thought to look for general guides to raiding. And I was pointed to a lot of good information by the people here. I appreciate that. Doesn't make him any less of an asshat, given that he didn't really give any information that wasn't already mentioned.

Norik
05-30-2009, 09:32 PM
Second the motion on referencing Ciders defense gear guide. And not trying to be an asshat, but you are going to get hit like a truck and your going to die allot in Naxx 10 until you make a few improvements, and honestly, if you put in some serious effort you could have quite a few rep awards and some better gear in less then two weeks and be Naxx ready.

Im not a hardcore player by any means, a little more then casual. Myself and 10 other guildies went into Naxx roughly 2 weeks after the expansion and I was ready to go in just a bit higher gear then what you have now. I think the only two epics I had where my shieldwall and combat shotgun and maybe some rep awards.

Hope you find your way and you have come to a great place to learn.

BWarner
05-31-2009, 02:01 PM
Quickly running over, if you failed to read the links listed above:

You're using two DPS trinkets, a DPS mace (I know it was mentioned, but bear with me), and dps enchants out the whazoo. Seriously, attack power is essentially useless for tanking. Don't enchant for it, don't wear trinkets for it, it's extremely poor form. You get little to no tanking benefit from it, and you cannot, in all honesty, afford the wasted trinket/enchant on the AP over Stam, Dodge, Defense, what have you.

Naxx10 being doable within a week or two? Absolutely. Just work on those Heroics and that Rep.

Good luck with it!

(Note - the best ease/performance ratio weapon you can get at this point would be the Infantry Assault Blade, from the first boss in H UK. It will definitely hold you over for a long while.)

Karisita
05-31-2009, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the confirmation on the infantry assault blade. I went to heroic UK last night, and I'm going back tonight if I can find a group. We steam rolled the place so I can't imagine it's going to be too hard.

I've been grinding wyrmsrest accord for a while, and started argent crusade a few days ago, but they both have crap for dalies. And Wrath has crap for instances that yeild rep. Oh well.

Davout
05-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Thanks for the confirmation on the infantry assault blade. I went to heroic UK last night, and I'm going back tonight if I can find a group. We steam rolled the place so I can't imagine it's going to be too hard.

I've been grinding wyrmsrest accord for a while, and started argent crusade a few days ago, but they both have crap for dalies. And Wrath has crap for instances that yeild rep. Oh well.

Argent Crusade Tabard, its buyable at friendly, you wear it in a Northrend dungeon and your rep goes up on anything that you kill. Makes the rep grinds go much faster

VerticalEvent
06-01-2009, 07:31 AM
This might help
Loot Rank for WotLK (http://www.lootrank.com/wr.asp?Cla=1&Gem=3&Str=40&Arm=6&Sta=78&bar=6&Agi=65&Def=80&mhit=30&Dod=75&blv=45&blr=15&par=70&Exp=60&Ver=6&i1=0&i2=0&i3=0&i7=0&i8=0&i9=0&j1=0&j2=0&k1=0&k2=0&k3=0&k4=0&k5=0&k6=0&k7=0&k8=0)

It's a link for Tanking gear for a Warrior, only involving 5-man instances, as well as buyable/craftable gear.

Berzerker
06-01-2009, 08:35 AM
You've still got some quick/easy farmable ups out there you may want to grab a group and grind like mad on:

Silver-Plated Battlechest - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44407) -- from quest in Utgarde Pinnacle - can be done on regular. Gauranteed reward, and ups your chest by 13 stam and 18 defense. This'll get you by until you get the Wyrmrest rep for Breastplate of the Solemn Council - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44198).

Seal of the Pantheon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36993) -- drop from Loken in regular HoL -- run it, kill him, reset, run it again. You'll annoy the hell out of your group if it takes very long to drop, but it'll buy you a lot of wiggle room on defense. DO NOT SELL IT even when you get enough other gear to stay uncrittable without it -- as you shift from blues to purps, you'll see a lot of fluctuation in defense. This is your stop-gap, until you get Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292) from Thaddius (10-man). You'll also want the added defense if you try using a frost-resist set for Sapphiron later on.

Also, get the quest chain in Coldarra and go through Oculus on normal, to do the entire quest line in there. That'll net you a small upgrade on wrists (Bracers of Reverence - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44341)) and a chance to pick up a second defense ring (Dragonflight Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36961)) from the final boss. Or skip trying to get the ring to drop and get the Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643) made :P

And make sure you're wearing a rep tabard while you're doing any level 80 or heroic dungeon (if you're close to where you wanna get with one rep, carry a second tabard to switch when you hit what you need). Pick up the regular daily for a little added rep as well. Makes getting to revered with Argent and Wyrmrest a little quicker. As far as Argent dailies, you can also do Pa-Troll out in zul'drak for a decent chunk of rep each day (focus on getting good enough to get it done in time for the bonus quest at the end of the 4 sub-quests for an extra boost of rep), and then the Wyrmrest defense daily. Other than those, I believe it's just a matter of grinding dungeons with those tabards...

Crossied
06-01-2009, 08:54 AM
Grats on getting def capped.....after those brutal posts. lol. Now what you need to work on besides stam is your hit rating and expertise. If you can't hit the boss you can't keep threat.

Theotherone
06-01-2009, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the confirmation on the infantry assault blade. I went to heroic UK last night, and I'm going back tonight if I can find a group. We steam rolled the place so I can't imagine it's going to be too hard.

I've been grinding wyrmsrest accord for a while, and started argent crusade a few days ago, but they both have crap for dalies. And Wrath has crap for instances that yeild rep. Oh well.

Grind 80's dungeons and wear a faction tabard; the rep comes quickly. I found the only real grind was Hodir, no tabard, but they do have 6 dailies and Relics of Uldar so it moves along.

Biggensak
06-01-2009, 02:10 PM
Good progress so far, you've got the DEF cap covered and now it's time to start looking at kicking the hit/expertise in the pants. You can afford to swap some DEF for hit/expertise at this point in your gearing - shield block really isn't worth the investment if you are trying to gear toward Nax raid tanking (keep the bits you have until you get upgrades in each slot). I'd suggest you grind some rep with Wyrmrest to get the tanking chest and boots.. huge def/expertise item for filling the threat gap.

Breastplate of the Solemn Council - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44198)
Sabatons of Draconic Vigor - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44201)

You already have honored and can pick up the Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44188) right now (hit > block value for Nax tanking).

You can also pick up the tanking legs from the Argent Crusade quartermaster, Special Issue Legplates - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44240).

Doing the Northrend loremaster achievement after you hit 80 will net you a ton of cash, some decent blues and a lot of rep to make the instance rep grind less painful. It didn't take nearly as long as I expected and was a lot more interesting than doing the standard dalies.

As far as Epic gear upgrades, the engineering shotgun, rings from JC and Obsidian Sanctum-10, leatherworking cloak, cloak drop from Uldar, and the BoE valor bracers are all good options that may be available for a good price depending on demand on your server.

Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643)
Signet of the Accord - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40426)
Cloak of the Iron Council - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45322)
Durable Nerubhide Cape - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43565)
Bracers of Dalaran's Parapets - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40734)
Armor Plated Combat Shotgun - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41168)


Also, lots of good badge options available with BoH's from running heroics to fill in the gaps even if you aren't getting the drops you want. Depending on you rate of incoming Badges of Honor I'd probably pick the neck (Chained Military Gorget - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40679)) and then the gloves (Heroes' Dreadnaught Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39622)). I'm progressing through Uldar and find the gloves are still hard to replace and just haven't found a better option for the neck slot yet so I consider these pretty good long term bets.

Khek
06-02-2009, 12:02 PM
Hi Karista,

I'm probably going to repeat some of the advice that's been given to you already, so please bear with me.

First, I'm going to link some fairly easily obtainable gear for ya.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=41168) - get the mats together to make this. You are a miner, so you should be able to obtain most of the mats. The rest of the mats you can get by selling ore that you mine for the gold.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=40701) - this takes 35 heroism badges at the vendor. It's a great starting shield with good stats.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=36993) is a great starting trinket. It is found in HoL normal.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=40683) is a 40 heroism emblem purchase from the vendor.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=40734) - save about 1,000g (give or take depending on the server) and watch the trade channel. Many people offer these for sale since they are BoE.

As for your enchants, most of them are now decent, but you are still using the attack power enchant on your gloves. I'd strongly suggest that you replace that enchant with something like:

Formula: Enchant Gloves - Threat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33153#teaches-recipe) - old world BC enchant, but easier obtainable mats.

or

Formula: Enchant Gloves - Threat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33153#teaches-recipe) - WotLK enchant. Mats are more expensive so you may want to wait for better gloves.

The emblem vendor also has T7 gloves and chest for sale for badges. There is also a nice belt located in the same vendor. So, run heroics like a madman. That's what I did. I ran 3-6 per day every day that I could until I could purchase everything I needed.

Lastly, why don't you have vigilance? It is an awesome little threat boost tool. You should seriously consider it. Placing vigilance onto your highest threat dpser will transfer 10% of their threat to you and reduce their damage taken by 3%.

Karisita
06-02-2009, 01:33 PM
without trying to sound like I know everything... Khek... the reason I don't have Vig is because for one, I'm already doing double to triple the threat of the best dps'ers I've run with, and if I'm doing my job, they shouldn't be getting hit much. Instead I specced for Cruelty and Armored to the Teeth for more crit, because that was at the time generating more TPS than vig. But I was talking to my chanter about swapping threat onto my gloves, and then speccing for Vig and Imp Spell Ref (for the heroics I've been running lately, as there's tons of magic damage.)

I greatly appreciate everyone's suggestions, and I'm trying to follow them as quickly as possible, I'm grinding Wyrmrest Accord as quickly as possible, but right now I'm even being hit like a truck in H UK and H HoS. If anyone can figure out why I'm taking 6k rend ticks I'd appreciate it, as would our pally healer.

Theotherone
06-02-2009, 01:50 PM
I'm a Frost DK tank, so this may not apply to warriors, but it seems to me, as someone else pointed out earlier, you need to switch up gems/enchnats. Dont' enchant or gem for AP; also don't gem for Parry you'll pick it up as you advance. Focus on your Dodge. Get your gloves the Armsman's enchant (stamina and parry). Enchant your boots for Stamina and your bracers for Defense. This should free up some gem slots for Dodge and/or Stamina. You should be fine for H UK, but H HoS is tough. Also, your trinkets are dps, your first spend on emblems of heroism should be the Mirror of Truth - IMHO.

Personally, I like avoidance - the easiest hit to heal is the one that misses.

We all went through this expensive process of learning what gear/spec/enchants/gems worked best for us. Hang in there.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Theotherone)

Karisita
06-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Part of the problem as a warrior is that if I'm not getting hit, I'm getting rage starved. So it's a careful balance to avoid getting too much avoidance to where I'm not getting rage, vs getting hit too much. For me the biggest problem in UK is the dragons, they have a rend that's doing 6k+ to me per tick. Though I'll admit pally heals can be awful slow.

Now that I've hit def cap, and I've got a few points to spare, I'm going to remove some of my def gems for stam or parry, plus with a few of the easy upgrades I'm aiming for... like that trinket from HoL reg, I can free up more of my ench and gems for stam. But I think at this point I'm short on damage reduction, of some sort, because those damn rends are tearing me apart. Then again maybe it's just that the heals are too slow and small...

Mind taking a look?

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&n=Laurithian)

That's my regular pally healer.

Edgar
06-02-2009, 04:09 PM
530 defense is sufficient for heroic 5-mans. 540 minimum for Naxx and later raids.

It's 535. It would be 530 if heroic bosses were level 81.

Malavar
06-02-2009, 05:24 PM
Regarding Astemus' response to using the Titansteel Bonecrusher for tanking:


Ditch it like it's cursed, I'm serious. That was a pure waste of gold, you might as well sell it to a vendor. There is NO WAY you should ever use that again. Seriously. Sell it. Like, now.

And seriously, titansteel bonecrusher? Really? I hope you've already taken that thing off. People are laughing at you when they inspect you.

What a completely inappropriate response and yes, most definitely, you sound mean and rude to boot. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the Titansteel Bonecrusher, as I've been using it for months in raids (10 and 25 man, OS, Naxx, VoA, both MT and OT) without any issues. Even more so, just do a search on the forums here using Titansteel Bonecrusher as the keywords and you'll find posts talking about the benefits and disadvantages of using it (yes they're are obviously tradeoffs in using it).

To simplify this though, if you need every bit of defense you can scrounge together, yes most definitely get one of the other tanking weapons that have defense bonuses via faction grinding or heroic dungeon runs. However, if you've lots of cash on hand (I do) and don't need the extra defense, grab it until you can acquire the Red Sword of Courage.

Put another way, if you raid a lot, ya don't waste your money or mats on it because you'll probably get a decent weapon pretty soon. However, if you don't raid that often like me (just twice a week) but have a decent amount of cash from your professions, ya grab it to tie you over.

Berzerker
06-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Now that I've hit def cap, and I've got a few points to spare, I'm going to remove some of my def gems for stam or parry, plus with a few of the easy upgrades I'm aiming for... like that trinket from HoL reg, I can free up more of my ench and gems for stam. But I think at this point I'm short on damage reduction, of some sort, because those damn rends are tearing me apart. Then again maybe it's just that the heals are too slow and small...

dodge instead of parry. Parry's got a very steeply climbing curve for diminishing returns with a fairly low cap. See http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html for more details on it, or just to plainly hear it from someone that knows a LOT more about this than I do.


As far as the dots, the only way I know to reduce dot damage is resilience, which is a pvp stat. I would actually recommend more of trying to get more CC to help cut down some of the damage you're having to soak up -- sheep the humanoids with the dragons, or get a rogue to help keep the dragon stunned to cut down on how much collateral damage you're eating, and the rends won't seem so big. (Getting a group to use CC may be an uphill battle for some of the folks used to AOEing everything, but it'll keep you alive) Try to work in some Enraged Regeneration to help offset the rend damage as well -- hots are a great counter to dots.

May also kick around the idea of swapping your glyph of cleaving for one of heroic strike -- it pairs very nicely with Incite and Glyph of Revenge, and you're looking at swapping a cleave that hits 3 targets for 20 rage for heroic strikes (that you should already be using at LEAST on the free ones) that cost 9 rage (if any), and have the chance to generate 10 rage back. Makes for more target changing on AOE pulls, but also more threat per rage, overall, which may help with your rage starvation, on top of helping your dps on single-target pulls.

Karisita
06-04-2009, 05:20 AM
I'm not having the rage starvation issue yet, though it comes close sometimes, I've rarely run out of rage in heroics. Sometimes when we mispull because the mage jumps the gun on the poly I wind up having to run around all willy nilly picking up targets with rage I don't have. But in the end, I've usually got enough rage to do what I need.

One of my major issues is that I have to PuG 2 spots every time we run. Why? Well because we've only got three regulars at this point, which sucks, because we have the 80s to do it, they just aren't on. And the biggest problem with PuGing in heroics is that most people are already mostly geared, looking for quick runs through easy heroics just to get badges. When we take our time, mark out targets and strategies, people get killed, then the pugs drop.

Crossied
06-05-2009, 07:48 AM
I don't want to sound rude or like i'm being a jerk, but why do you mark targets in heroics? If the people in the group, Tank and dps, know how to play their toon and the game you shouldn't have to mark things up. You could also just let them know to attack the target you're on untill you get enough aoe aggro up. IMO, but it sounds like you have some people in the group that don't do much instances/raids. Also if the 2 pugs are mostly gear/over geared for the runs they should know what target to dps down, they don't need the marks. When I tanked Heroics I asked if anyone was new to the instance....if someone was then I just let them know the fights a little and tell them to dps what I target. If they end up pulling aggro on something I don't have targeted they die. I pull it back a few times but if they keep doing it I just let them die, then the mob comes back to you. After someone dies a few times they realize they should probably listen to the tank. Hope I have helped out in any way.

Droknathar
06-05-2009, 08:10 AM
"Let me counter with a little advice for you. Being an asshat isn't impressing anyone."



Impressed me. He was completely honest with you, something others probably aren't willing to be. Keep in mind you are the one that is asking for advice, and getting chewed out will help you in the end. You really should not be in Naxx, not yet. Following his advice will get you somewhere. And as far as a weapon you can get to replace the bonecrusher, do herioc UK up to the first boss(trash mobs shouldn't be a big problem and the first boss is a spellcaster). Also, sounds to me that if your dealing with a hunter that can only do 1500 or so dps at level 80 you should probably cut her, or at least have her go back and do the regular instances with you.
You're probably also not rage starved because your getting hit really hard or getting hit really often. And when you do need rage on an AoE pull do yourself a favor and hit challenging shout and berserker rage.

Droknathar
06-05-2009, 08:27 AM
As for your pally healer.
Seems to me they have to much mp5; not enough spell haste, crit or power.
Gotta realize paladins mp5 comes from crit so there's no reason to gem or gear for it like a resto shaman (debatable by shamans of course). They could stand to either regem for intel like most pally healers or gem for crit and spellpower, either one works. Gear makes a differance there though. Main thing he/she doesn't need to do is get more mp5. The biggest thing I see is simply the lowly 11.68% crit, that needs to go up by a lot or they need to have as close as possible to 100% uptime on sacred shield (which they should have anyway, it's how the pally healers I know have close to 100% crit with FoL).

junkilo
06-05-2009, 11:30 AM
wow you got in naxx10 with 22k HPs?!

I got towed through 25-man as a total scrub once and it was torture.

Nowadays most folks are expecting you to be in almost all iLVL 200+ epics with all the best enchants for starting naxx. I'm not saying its required, but you wont be classed as a scrub out the gate with the power gamer scene being what it is. I'm speaking to PUGs however.

Karisita
06-05-2009, 10:56 PM
Drok, it's not the honesty that I had a problem with, in fact if you read the rest of the post around the bit you quoted, I thanked him for his honesty. It's all in presentation. Beating me over the head with what was wrong did nothing. In fact I refined everything, absolutely everything but the raw information out of his post. And if you check my armory, I've already gotten the sword out of H UK. The only place I get rage starved is in the dragons area with the handlers and dragons, and even then it's only at the beginning of the fight, right when everyone thinks it's okay to unleash AOE's.

Crossied: Tons of reasons why I mark targets. 1) It's good practice for raiding. Which is where I'm attempting to go. 2) I'm having problems with people attacking the wrong targets WITHOUT marking them, so to get everyone on the same page, I mark. 3) When we're already wiping, sometimes on trash mobs, anything which makes the run go smoother is preferable. 4) We aren't bringing people who are overgeared. We're bringing people looking for gear and badges who don't have time to do it with a regular guild. Most of the time there's at least one or two that have never been, or haven't seen the encounter on heroic.

Junkilo: When I went, it was because another guild that we work with was short a tank. They had had their boomkin use his furbutt 2nd spec, and brought in one of their hunters, but when their hunter was only doing 700 dps, they kicked him out, put the boomkin back, and asked me to come. I wasn't ready. I was well aware of that. And the encounters there only served to bring it home, since at the time I only had 501 def, buttloads of stam, but that doesn't help if every other time I'm hit it's a crit.

I'm putting off starting raiding a little longer. I want to get my gear sorted out first before we start bashing our heads against a ten man.

Thedom
06-06-2009, 12:23 AM
To address another problem your spec makes almost no sense. You have impale and other threat stats but left out deep wounds which for threat/damage while tanking (which in naxx is what you need to go towards) and still havent realized what a great buff vigilance is. In naxx you will aoe trash, people will pull off, and vigilance is a great tool that gives you extra threat and makes them take less damage AND refreshes your taunt. If you want threat and damage get a true deep wounds build and keep working. You have learned your priorities with defense first and now I would just encourage you to work on that spec.

Sasha
06-06-2009, 08:54 PM
I didnt' read all the threads.

here's what I basically see and suggest:
1. Sump all the dps gems/enchants for survival, Defense until you hit 540 (I'd do 541 if possible to eliminate any math rounding errors), then Stam/HP all the way up as hard as you can. Dodge > parry/block when/if you can get it.
2. On the warrior gear guide go for the EH set.
3. lose a point in the arms tree (improved charge..I'd probably dump both points) and pickup vigilance. Use it....it's worth having....

Other than that I dont' see any glaring issues. If you do those suggestions you'll be fine up until you start hitting uldar where things hit ALOT harder. You'll also note that as you get better gear your +def will go up as well.

Karisita
06-07-2009, 03:07 PM
Ok Sasha and Thedom, I can see where you're going there, I didn't think about Vig's ability to help me build AOE threat, which admittedly is the Warrior's biggest downfall...

So having taken that into account, what do you think of this talent build?

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000020000000000000000000000303000000000000 000000000000053351225000012520330113321)

Khek
06-08-2009, 04:16 AM
Hey again Karista,

I checked your linked spec and have a couple of pointers to throw your way, if you are willing to chew them over.

You say that you rage starve at the beginning of some pulls due to AOE happy dps'ers in your groups. (Welcome to the club! Boy do I know how that feels.) What I am going to suggest is that you drop the armored to the teeth points and the Impale - in the arms tree. That's going to give you 5 points. I'd strongly recommend (from my own personal experiences) that you pick up the improved Bloodrage in the prot tree, as well as vigilance. Vigilance as others have stated helps you significantly with AOE threat. Improved bloodrage will give you more to initially work with. Pop Bloodrage before you charge in and the ticks will help with initial threat, plus give you the rage to thunderclap and go to town.

The extra two points you have left over, I'd put into cruelty - for more crit.

With all this said, you should also try mouseover macros. You can devastate -and- revenge targets that you are not currently targeting, for threat. It's quick, easy and I'd be happy to teach you if you need the help.

Lastly, I think that your healer may be your biggest issue. I run with a resto druid as my heals and I never have a problem with bleeds. Druids have a huge advantage over pally's in that they have HoT's. Maybe you should try another healer?

Gromblee
06-08-2009, 04:58 AM
Hmmmm..... rage starved at the begining of a pull? I usually charge in a pull if I can to give me the rage to TC then get a shockwave out by then you have enough incoming damage to keep me in rage thru the battle. I currently tank in Ulduar and still not have much problems with rage starvation in heroics. DPS must learn to give a warrior a few seconds or they will pull and die if they are the same gear level as the tank.

Karisita
06-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Khek, thank you for taking a moment to look it over. I can see your point, but I almost always get the chance to TC and Shockwave at the beginning of each fight, IF I get the chance to charge. Sometimes my DPS jumps the gun or we get SURPRISE agro from a pat coming around a corner or something. Or more so lately... one of my party members runs up for loot and agros everything. After I specifically say don't run in front of the tank... Anyway, that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is that I'm having some trouble sometimes keeping agro over the mage I usually run with, and sometimes one of the hunters. (the mage does 3k dps and the hunter does 2.4, the mage is ulduar geared, the hunter is post naxx.)

So I would think all the AP and crit I can get is useful right now, particularly with me loosing AP trinkets I never should have had in the first place.

I get what you're saying about our healer, but how's he supposed to get geared for raids if I can't get him thru heroics? And if he tries to run on ret mode, he gets shit dps (600) and he doesn't want to have to regear for ret when he's primarily holy.

Malavar
06-08-2009, 09:58 AM
Karisita, with regards to your response to marking targets, good on ya, as you're absolutely right, it breeds good raiding behaviour. I'd recommend letting PUGs know up front though that you'll be doing this and if they don't like it, they don't have to join your group. An alternative option is to looking at getting a marking mod to speed up the process (i.e. something simple like Lucky Charms (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info8642-FuBar-LuckyCharms.html) or more complex like Magic Marker (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info9110-MagicMarker.html)).

As for your spec, instead of telling you what you should have specifically, I'm just going to mention some ways of making your spec flexible to your needs.

1) Instead of applying points to talents that improve rage efficiency (i.e. Focused Rage), just utilize a Glyph of Revenge and Glyph of Heroic Strike as a base. These two glyphs utilized together will give you tons of rage, as they work off each other, to the point that you can gain rage when using Heroic Strike.

2) Your third major glyph provides the flexibility for your spec, often corresponding to the spec approach you've chosen for optimization but it doesn't have to if you want mix things up. So if you want a spec that's really high on dmg mitigation, go for the Glyph of Blocking. High on threat? Go for Glyph of Vigilance. High AoE potential? Grab the Glyph of Resonating Power (to improve your Thunderclap utilization).

3) If you absolutely must give up one of these two base glyphs (i.e. Revenge, Heroic Strike), ditch the Heroic Strike because the Revenge always guarantees a free followup rage attack with Heroic Strike. For example, some peeps like taking both Glyph of Last Stand and Glyph of Shield Wall along with a spec that takes advantage of them (see examples below). If so, just ensure you keep the Glyph of Revenge because if you don't, you most definitely will have to allocate points to increase your rage efficiency (point #1).

4) Improved Charge is great as a base talent because it helps in many ways. Not only does it help at the very start of a fight when you're usually rage starved, it also helps in the middle of fight. For example, if a mob breaks off to attack a caster, take advantage of the incident by charging it and increasing your rage in the process. The only time I'd sacrifice this talent is if I was going to max out my dmg mitigation.

Alright, here's some examples using the guidelines above.

15/5/51 (w/ Glyph of Vigilance) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVMc0fZhbZVItrx0zidczsGo:boA)

7/13/51 (w/ Glyph of Blocking) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVMZhEZVItrx0zidczsGo:bod)

5/13/53 (w/ Glyphs of Last Stand & Shield Wall) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZhEZVItrx0didczsGo:brT)

All said and done though, no single spec is THE spec to end all specs. Why? Because your needs will change based upon your gear and the dungeons you're running.

For example, if you have next to no hit rating, you'll probably have to drop more points in rage efficiency talents to make up for it because you're hitting less and thus not getting as much rage. If you have next to no expertise rating, you'll have to boost your dmg mitigation because bosses will parry you more and thus hit you faster (so more dmg per cycle).

Same applies to dungeons being run, some might require more threat, some more AoE effectiveness and others more dmg mitigation. So as you evolve from heroics to Naxx and then eventually to Ulduar, you'll see your spec needs changing.

Karisita
06-08-2009, 10:28 AM
Malavar, thank you for one of the most helpful and flexible peices of advice given to me thus far... if you don't mind I'd like to quote you here in my blog.. yeah I know, seems odd for someone who's having troubles like mine to be writing a blog, but it's about the struggle of getting to raiding, something I haven't seen much, if any, of. So the advice you've given me is uniquely suited to my blog. And I like hearing flexibility instead of viability.

You can look for some changes to my spec most likely this evening, if not tomorrow... right now I'm at work and don't have the time to rework it.

Karisita
06-08-2009, 10:32 AM
crap, just realized that the spec I posted wasn't my new one, but my old one. >.<

Will correct that by pulling the url from Talented tonight.

Malavar
06-08-2009, 11:12 AM
With regards to your gear Karisita, not sure if you're using it or not but Gear Wishlist is a site that makes things pretty easy to figure out what you need to work on. Here's your character below.

Karisita / Gear Wishlist (http://gear-wishlist.appspot.com/wishlist?character=Karisita&realm=Shadowsong&region=us&site=Wowhead)

Feet: I just noticed you reached Revered with Wyrmrest Accord, thus you can now purchase Sabatons of Draconic Vigor (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44201) which should allow you to swap out one or two defense gems for stamina instead and still maintain your 540 defense cap.

Back: Note that higher items listed on the Gear Wishlist are not always better (especially as a caster). I'd recommend wearing the Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44188) (Wyrmrest Accord, Honored) over your current cloak because the Resolution cloak gives you both hit rating and more defense, thus allowing you to swap out defense gems for stamina (especially your meta gem).

Chest: Instead of a defense enchant, get the +275 Super Health enchant to your chest piece when you can afford it, as you'll probably have that chest piece for a while. If you need more defense (so you can swap out defense gems for stamina gems), see the shield defense enchant below.

Head: Get the Arcanum of Stalward Protector head enchant when you obtain Revered with Argent Crusade. In the interim, if you have the cash, get something like the Arcanum of the Eclipse Moon via Wyrmrest Accord Honored (or the equivalent from another faction), as it gives you 30 extra stamina. And as noted above, get a stamina meta gem when you get the chance.

Wrist: Get a cheaper +12 Fortitude enchant on your bracers to carry you over until you get better bracers and can apply the +40 Major Stamina enchant to them.

Shield: Gear Wishlist shows you had Titansteel Shield Wall before your current shield. If so and you spent 35 emblems on your current shield, that's too bad, as you could have put those emblems to much better use purchasing other gear like the Valor Medal of the First War (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40683) trinket which would have been a huge boost for you, as you have no tanking trinkets right now. Anyways, you probably have that shield for a while, so apply the +20 defense enchant to it when you can afford it. Simply put, if I'm going to apply defense enchants at all, the first two places I look at applying them are my cloak and shield.

Trinket: Besides the already suggested Seal of Pantheon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36993) from Halls of Lightning, run Heroic Azjol Nerub to get Essence of Gossamer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37220), another great tanking trinket. Actually both Azjol Nerub and Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom both have a lot of tanking gear drops in them, so they are good heroics for a tank to run again and again.

Hands: Get Armsman enchant (+2% threat, +10 parry rating) if you can afford it, as you might have those gloves for a while.

Shoulders: Finally if you're going to drop a substantial amount of money on the AH for any single piece of tanking gear, I'd recommend getting the Wapach's Spaulders of Solidarity (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44312) shoulders when they're selling cheap, as they'll boost your defense and expertise dramatically.

PS. Feel free to blog about anything I said but one final piece of advice though. Don't take anyone's words straight off, even mine. Only by testing out a spec and seeing how it works with your play style will you know if it works or not. For example, I'm always willing to sacrifice a bit of stamina, if I can improve my threat generation, as I like riding on the edge a bit. It's just the way I like to play the game.

PSS. Oh, one last thing which you may or may not be aware of. How you setup your action buttons can make a huge difference on your tanking performance as well (i.e. threat/rage generation, dmg mitigation).

Karisita
06-08-2009, 02:42 PM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3500200023000000000000000000000301000000000000 000000000000053351225000010521330113321)

That should be the talent spec I wanted someone to look at, but I'm thinking of changing it more..

ok, I want to leave that one there so people can see it, but I also have this one, it's only a little tweak, but I think better overall for rage at the beginning of fight.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502200023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000253351225000010521030113321)

Gromblee
06-08-2009, 06:55 PM
If you are running with a Ulduar geared mage he should know he has to throttle his DPS to your threat ability. With your gear there is no possible way you can hold a mob if he opens up. Same is true with the hunter..... sad but true a group can be limited to their tanks ability to hold aggro. DPS that jumps the gun can and will cause wipes if not controlled. In Naxx25 gear I have had problems with wipes in heroics usually pinned down to a DPS that scatters a group or is not aware of position and pulls more groups than we can handle. Threat is nessary to have but survivability is key without it you will not survive the encounter anyway. As a tank YOU need to control the tempo of the group for the survival of all. Use all tools you have available and learn as much about the craft as possible.

Norik
06-08-2009, 07:49 PM
Just popped in to see how your doing. Checked your armory and see you have made some major advances.
Gratz on the Shotgun ! That will be one of the best investments you will ever make as far as length of using an item.
Honestly, I think you would do OK with a similar geared group in Naxx 10. No it wont be pretty, and you wont steam roll through it. But where is the fun in that?
At this point Id keep working on the rep items/ badge gear and maybe keep an eye on the AH for a cheap pair of the Valor Bracers.

Karisita
06-08-2009, 09:32 PM
My healer said the same thing tonight, said I was SO much easier to heal... we actually went from Utgarde Keep and Nexus to VH last night, yes our mages were overgeared, but we wound up getting the elemental guy, the one you have to kite away from the lightning orbs.... we wiped once because I didn't know the fight. Then after ten seconds of someone explaining it to me, I did it easy. And my healer thanked me. I could stiill use some work, like those deathdealers... I saw them in my server for 550, which was an amazing price given the mats... and I didn't think to ask my guild leader for a loan of gold.