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View Full Version : Stam stacking the thing or what?



Trysha
05-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Hello the name is Trysha (pally tank on Burning Blade) and I had a few questions and such.

I realize atm that Paladins produce the most threat. (lil disclaimer)

Wotlk release I made a pally to be prot come raiding time. We entered Naxxaramas threat was not a problem what so ever, and it satyed that way till about half way through 25 man Naxxaramas. I had to do a different spec and I made sure that I was hit/expertise capped (for dodge), and I picked my threat up again. And I continued with that same basis and have been doing fine ever since.

But I have a few questions. When I look around at all the other tanks on Burning Blade that all stack stamina every socket is stam with one trinket being Essence of Gossamer. I think to myself "they must not have good dps because seems to me that they couldn't produce nearly as much tps as me" but yet some of them are in great guilds with great dps. Is stam a viable thing to stack I know for pallies it gives us SP , but other than that I don't see anything else it gives us. I ask this too because the bosses sure do hit hard in Ulduar (well.... some do) and going for avoidance (for me) means no threat what so ever. And if stam allows good threat production and allows me to soak the hits I most certainly will change, but I would like to know if anyone has done some testing on it.

I make sure I am hit/expertise capped with over 1700 BV unbuffed for threat.

Is stam good for threat or is everyone on my server not doing things right.

Warlikes
05-24-2009, 05:11 PM
Let me ask you a question. How many fights do you actually need that much threat on.

The only time you need to focus so much on threat is when the dps is getting buffed and you are not. those fights you simply have a second set of gear for.

Mutt
05-24-2009, 06:22 PM
hello Trysha, if you look into your Prot Talents you will see "TOUCHED BY THE LIGHT" this talent right here increases your spell power by 30% of your stamina. This is a pure result of Paladin Threat. More stam = more threat as you know already, but also in ulduar the bosses do hit VERY HARD, but you cant always rely on avoidance, if your avoidance doesnt work for two hits, you will killed no way around it. With the stam you will be able to soak up hits. You should go by the 3hit rule(you can take 3 hits without dieing). stacking avoidance drops you down to the 2hit rule.

Aethelas
05-24-2009, 10:57 PM
When it comes down to things remember you're there to take the beating first, put out loads of threat 2nd.

Surviving 3 hits? So that'd be 3 x 18-23k ish hits roughly equalling to 60k health then? As far as I've seen it's about being able to take that second hit in Ulduar if you're a warrior or paladin - the third hit is so incredibly far off for me currently I don't think that'll be reachable with the gear from current content.

AthanasÓa
05-24-2009, 11:32 PM
Well I think Mutt means the right thing but he has a little mistake in his post ;).
You should go by the 3 hit rule, yes.
So that you can get 2 hits without heal (the 3rd hit kills you :eek:)
If you stack avoidance through your gems you would go down to only survive 1 hit (the 2nd would kill you) and u don't really want that

Muykalo
05-24-2009, 11:52 PM
Well I think Mutt means the right thing but he has a little mistake in his post ;).
You should go by the 3 hit rule, yes.
So that you can get 2 hits without heal (the 3rd hit kills you :eek:)
If you stack avoidance through your gems you would go down to only survive 1 hit (the 2nd would kill you) and u don't really want that

Agreed :D

In Ulduar u must have enough HP....

eg. Hodir use "Frozen Blow on you"

This skill.... Avoidance can't help u

(except Frost resist) XD more Hp can help u on surviving and help your Healer to get comfortable spam heal on U

Aethelas
05-25-2009, 04:14 AM
Ah, we essentially mean the same in that case - entirely my bad! If you intend to only die on the third hit we have similar objectives.

Lizana
05-25-2009, 09:06 AM
A dead tank does no threat. Stam stacking is about survival not about threat.

Arkunsun
05-25-2009, 10:58 AM
Hello the name is Trysha (pally tank on Burning

I make sure I am hit/expertise capped with over 1700 BV unbuffed for threat.


This brings up a question I've been curios about. Admittedly I'm pretty ignorant of how Paladin Mechanics work for tanking but I was under the impression that they didn't need the expertise soft cap. Because their abilities are "Spells" they are not subject to dodge or parry wouldn't they be ok to ignore expertise in favor of hit (threat) or stamina (EH)?

Trysha
05-25-2009, 11:08 AM
Concencrate, exorcism, and Holy sheild are the only things pertaining to magic with a prot paladin. Seals, Judgements, etc. are under expertise

tuffmuffin
05-25-2009, 11:09 AM
This brings up a question I've been curios about. Admittedly I'm pretty ignorant of how Paladin Mechanics work for tanking but I was under the impression that they didn't need the expertise soft cap. Because their abilities are "Spells" they are not subject to dodge or parry wouldn't they be ok to ignore expertise in favor of hit (threat) or stamina (EH)?

From talents and glyphs alone Paladins can get 16 expertise, so they'd only need 10 from gear to hit the soft cap which is easily done. Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous are considered melee attacks, so at least hitting the soft cap is beneficial.

Arkunsun
05-26-2009, 06:37 AM
From talents and glyphs alone Paladins can get 16 expertise, so they'd only need 10 from gear to hit the soft cap which is easily done. Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous are considered melee attacks, so at least hitting the soft cap is beneficial.

Thanks, I'll pass that info along to the Pally tanks in my guild.

Hengist
05-26-2009, 07:03 AM
From talents and glyphs alone Paladins can get 16 expertise, so they'd only need 10 from gear to hit the soft cap which is easily done. Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous are considered melee attacks, so at least hitting the soft cap is beneficial.
Shield of the Righteousness is considered a melee attack? Since when? As far as I know only Hammer and white melee from paladin's arsenal can be parried.

Maat
05-26-2009, 09:39 AM
Slightly off. HotR cannot be parried, only dodged/missed. Shield of Righteousness can only miss. So regarding threat, with the minimum expertise (talent+SoV glyph=16) the stat is not terribly valuable for paladin.

On the other hand being parry-gibbed is a very real danger on various bosses, but even on Vezax where it hurts the most, I feel gearing for additional expertise is a waste as a protadin vs. additional stamina/avoidance/armor. In absence of the SoV glyph... maybe I would, but it's such an overbudget glyph.

However I do still use the hit/exp badge ring in my MT set as I still believe 200+ hit rating is still valuable and recent gear upgrades are lacking it (plus i keep losing defense rating... stupid druid rings)

MT set so far has around 1100 BV unbuffed but 35.3k hp and 55% avoidance. No one in my guild has complained about my threat except on dps gimmick fights like Hodir and Vezax and for those -rare- cases we have those threat reduction abilities people stopped remembering that they have. When my dps start outgearing me again I'm sure I'll sing a different tune.

Hengist
05-26-2009, 10:44 AM
Slightly off. HotR cannot be parried, only dodged/missed.
Sorry fior not being clear, the HotR parry is reported as "deflect".

tuffmuffin
05-26-2009, 11:29 AM
Shield of the Righteousness is considered a melee attack? Since when? As far as I know only Hammer and white melee from paladin's arsenal can be parried.
Ahh my bad there. I don't have a Pally tank myself so I was going off what I've been told by the one in my guild :(

Maat
05-26-2009, 01:39 PM
Oh my bad, I totally forgot the Deflect change, but Deflects don't cause parry-hasting at least. Expertise is merely a slight threat boost for HotR.

HotR is still only my 4th highest damage ability, even with T7 2-set. For example in a recent Ignis in EH/AV gear, ~210 hit, 18exp:

Melee: 144k (expertise+hit, low threat)
SoR: 136k (hit)
Seal+Judgement of Corruption w/T8 2-set: 124k (hit for judgement)
HotR w/T7 2-set: 81k (expertise+hit)

No one died from over-threat despite everyone being pretty much in melee range. I didn't die since my OTs were doing a good jorb keeping the creator stacks under 3 despite the post-patch aggro weirdness. I guess what I'm getting at is that my threat seems fine despite only being ~75% of the way to hit cap and soft exp cap, and the rest of my stats can go to stam.

Eetabeetay
05-29-2009, 08:36 AM
When it comes down to things remember you're there to take the beating first, put out loads of threat 2nd.

Surviving 3 hits? So that'd be 3 x 18-23k ish hits roughly equalling to 60k health then? As far as I've seen it's about being able to take that second hit in Ulduar if you're a warrior or paladin - the third hit is so incredibly far off for me currently I don't think that'll be reachable with the gear from current content.

No, you might not be able to survive 3 hits, but with more hp, it will take less healing in between to get u high enough to survive that 3rd hit. Assuming that you're not wiping, you should have heals on you and its very very very unlikely that you will take 3 hits unavoided back to back. I have 46k raid buffed HP. Now say I'm on a boss that hits for 20k normal hit - I get 3 unavoided hits in a row. Well the first two would bring me down to 6k hp - which means that in 4 seconds time i would need 14k in healing (assuming a 2 second swing timer). A tank with only 41k raid buffed hp would need 19k healing in 4 seconds. If there's any additional damage going on at the same time, such as on Steelbreaker last for Iron Council Hard Mode, that extra 5k hp buffer can make a world of difference.

neomasterc
05-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Im currently a DK tank with 31.5k hp unbuffed, bout 28% dodge, and 20% parry.
with raid buffs+flask i have bout 40k hp.
should i continue to gem for stam? as i wont get 2 shotted by most bosses (cept for maybe like hodir, but im not the frozen blows tank).
gemming for avoidance not only makes me take less dmg in most boss fights but also have more rune strikes=more threat.

Lizana
05-30-2009, 12:54 PM
If your running 10 man, sure stack something else, if your doing 25 man, Most bosses can still 2 shot you

jere
05-30-2009, 02:10 PM
Concencrate, exorcism, and Holy sheild are the only things pertaining to magic with a prot paladin. Seals, Judgements, etc. are under expertise

Just wanted to clarify this as incorrect.

While Consecration, exorcism, and Holy shield are all 'spells", judgements are not under expertise (as stated above). Tanking seals are affected, but only in the sense that the melee swing has to land to do what the seal does (though that is pretty moot for SoV as it has to land sometime outside a 15s widow to fall off).

Basically:

Expertise
HotR (Deflect is reduced by expertise and is the replacement for parry)
Melee
Seal Application Attempts (melee strike has to land afterall)

Melee Hit -- 8% cap
Melee
Shield of Righteousness
HotR
Hammer of Wrath
Taunt (17% cap though)
Judgement

Spell Hit -- 17% cap
Holy Shield
Consecration (yes it is now affected by hit -- not so much in BC days)
Exorcism
SoV stack application (assuming the melee hit lands)
SoV 5-stack damage

That's not an exhaustive list

As for is it worth it to stack Expertise to a certain cap, well that is up to the person honestly. I try to hit the dodge cap, but that isn't hard (as expressed above). For threat reasons, there are much better stats to stack. Check this thread out for more details:
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=20823)

Martie
05-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Im currently a DK tank with 31.5k hp unbuffed, bout 28% dodge, and 20% parry.
with raid buffs+flask i have bout 40k hp.
should i continue to gem for stam?
Yes you should.

Undeathguy
05-30-2009, 11:15 PM
Isnt it better to gem avoidances, as its better to not take the hit than to take the hit, even if you have a little more health.

Warlikes
05-31-2009, 12:03 AM
Sure its better not to take the hit. But the problem is you cant control when you take a hit. Avoidance is not something that is going to be there every hit. The only thing you can depend on to be there every time you take damage is health and if you have more health left after the hit then you need less healing to take the next one. But avoidance verse stam has been argued into the ground in other threads already.

Tharr
05-31-2009, 12:22 AM
I think it's better to stack health so you comfortably survive then go for avoidance or threat. How much health that is I leave up to each and everyone to figure out themselves since I can't say what you fight or how your raid looks or how good your healers are and whatnot.

Generally though, healthstacking works. Avoidance does to, as long as you don't neglect your health. And as always, different fights require different gear.

Martie
05-31-2009, 12:49 AM
Isnt it better to gem avoidances, as its better to not take the hit than to take the hit, even if you have a little more health.

At 50% avoidance, there is a 25% chance a boss will hit you twice in a row.
At 60% avoidance, there is a 16% chance a boss will hit you twice in a row.

Nothing you can do will make it unlikely that the moss hits you twice in a row. Stamina stacking increases your chances of surviving those two with minimal healing. (For a DK even without healing in many cases.)