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View Full Version : blood tank: hs heavy or ds heavy rotation?



wazdaa
05-24-2009, 12:41 PM
Hey,
i've had an argument with another blood tank on my server over it. so i'd like to see what you people think about it.

With DS heavy rotation i mean: hs>hs>ds>ds hs>pest>ds>ds (or 3xhs, 4xds, 1xpest)
with HS heavy rotation i mean: hs>hs>ds>ds hs>hs>hs>hs>hs>pest (or 7xhs, 2xds>1xpest)

first of i'll post the calculations i've made concerning the dps and therefor tps of hs and ds. i hope some ppl will take the time to check if these calculations are correct.
calculations assume 2 diseases on target and they are being refreshed with glyph of disease.
build used is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcErVh0Ic0ofssxhxZ0gh) in other words
things that buff hs specificly:


Subversion - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49491) =>9%crit
Bloody Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49395) =>+45% dmg
Might of Mograine - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49534) =>+45% critical strike dmg bonus
Sudden Doom - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49530) => 15%chance to proc death coil
Sigil of the Vengeful Heart - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45254) => +380dmg on death coil (if used)
Bloody Vengeance - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49504) => +9% physical dmg (assuming 100% up time for simplicity)

things that buff ds specificly


Improved Death Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62908) =>6%crit; +30%dmg; +50%healing
Might of Mograine - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49534) =>+45% critical strike dmg bonus
Glyph of Death Strike - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43827) => +25%dmg (if used)
Sigil of Awareness - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40207) => +315dmg (if used)
Bloody Vengeance - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49504) => +9% dmg (assuming 100% up time for simplicity)


so the calculations
hs dmg:
1.09*(((x+0.09)*2.45+(1-(x+0.09))*1.45(1.2((((y+(z/14))*1.04)*a*0.5)+368)))+0.15*(2*x+(1-x))*1.15*(443+0.2z+b)where x is crit chance in 0.xx form
y is weapon dps
z=ap
a=weapon speed
b= bonus from sigil of vengeful heart
when assuming 45k hp, 5kap, 20%crit and Inevitable Defeat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40406)

that translates to:
3961dmg without sigil of vengeful heart => 5743threat
4039dmg with sigil of vengeful heart => 5857threat

ds dmg:
1.09*(((x+0.06)*2.45+(1-(x+0.06)))*c*1.3*((((y+(z/14))*1.04)*a*0.75)+222.75+b)where x is crit chance in 0.xx form
y is weapon dps
z=ap
a=weapon speed
b= bonus from sigil of awareness when using it ofc.
c=1.25 when using glyph of DS
when assuming 45k hp, 5kap, 20%crit and Inevitable Defeat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40406)

that translates to:
3336dmg without glyph or sigil => 4837
3951dmg without glyph but with sigil => 5729
4170dmg with glyph but without sigil => 6047
4938dmg with glyph and sigil => 7160

ds healing:
1.5*0.1*dwhere d is max hp

that translates to 6750 healing => 4894threat

so putting it together
DS glyph + sigil of awareness
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 65445threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 45869threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 64309threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 54521threat

DS glyph + sigil of vengefull heart
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 61335threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 41759threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 62881threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 53093threat

DS glyph
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 60993threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 41417threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 62083threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 52295threat

Sigil of vengefull heart
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 56495threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 36919threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 60461threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 50673hreat

Sigil of awareness
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 59721threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 40145threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 61447threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 51659threat

'Nothing'
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 56153threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 36577threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 59663threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 49875threat

caveat i didn't factor in blood gorged, bc quite frankly i don't really have an idea on how to factor in the armor reduction and rather hard to really estimate a good uptime on the extra dmg, however since both of these effect benifit tps through dmg rather then tps through healing i'd imagin it would even enlarge the difference between ds heavy and hs heavy rotation. which brings us to boss armour, since that reduces dmg and therefor tps from dmg it favours tps through healing favoring the ds heavy rotation.

conclusions:


DS heavy rotation has the potential to be the strongest, but to do so requires glyph, sigil and the unlikely situation of 0 overhealing.
DS heavy rotation takes the biggest hit of overhealing, but even hs heavy rotation takes a significant hit when overhealing. (or when heal aggro is spread over multiple mobs)
sigil of vengefull heart is no good, sigil of awareness trumps it in every aspect.
DS heavy rotation scales better, but bc of the heavy reliance on overhealing (and my experience of a lot of overhealing) is unlikely to ever overcome a hs heavy rotation
DS heavy rotation is easier on the GCD's
since healing is a substantial tps source stamina might also be considered a tps stat for blood dk's
when using hs heavy rotation it's probably better to opt for glyph of RS then the DS one

To me from this results it would seem hs heavy rotation is better however i'd like to hear your opinions bc i might oversee other pros on cons since threat isn't everything. i'd also appreciate some feedback on the calculations and maybe some suggestions concerning the 2 caveats since they might totally flip over the results although i doubt that.


GZ

waZDaa

Vanthus
05-24-2009, 03:58 PM
Those results are only for that specific build and glyph of disease.
One glaring problem is in that build you don't even have toughness, which for tanking I would consider far more important than stretching DPS.

I am still not sure personally if Glyph of Disease is worth using a 0 damage skill and 2 talent points for (plus the glyph spot). I use it in my aoe build but not in my single target build.

In my blood build I pretty much ignore DS and use those talent points elsewhere, and my threat and dps is as high as I have ever had it (for single target). I have reached over 2k dps on single bosses even as an OT (no RS).

wazdaa
05-24-2009, 11:46 PM
forgot to fill out the points in frost tree, fixed link now there. hower i believe that the skills that boost HS and DS are incorporated in most blood builds and how the other points are filled in is of less importance in this matter.

I've always taken glyph of disease for granted, but i might indeed have to look into a bit more.

Satorri
05-25-2009, 06:58 AM
Aye, it is entirely possible to get all the appropriate buffs for both strikes from Blood and still fill out all the strong lower tree survival talents (i.e. Toughness, Anticipation, and Imp IT).

Side note, Vanthus, if you are playing a Blood tank and you stack health (as is significantly rewarded. It is downright foolish not to talent DS as it hits for a heavy amount with that and heals for laughable values. I average 7200 heals in Ulduar and the way I use it I range from 40-50% overhealing only. And my healers love me, I require less healers assigned to me which makes our raids substantially easier to organize (which I am a part of). DS usually constitutes about 50-60% of my own effective heals, and my total healing done on me is usually 3rd after the 2 healers regularly assigned to me, and is about 30-50% (depending on which fights) of the total value they put out on me. I digress though.

Wazdaa, nice work, I'm not going to parse out the formulae since the numbers seem to be about right for a crit adjusted average with Sudden Doom factored in. Bear in mind on Blood-gorged, that it should buff the two strikes equally except for DS's healing threat. I think the appropriate conclusion from a statistical standpoint is that neither rotation has a significant value over the other for raw threat numbers in every situation. Here is some food for thought that isn't encompassed purely in threat (personally I don't get tested much on threat, I'm more concerned with survival in Ulduar, which is always an active endeavor):

1.) HS costs 1 rune where DS costs 2. This has two aspects where it will become apparent. 2xHS = 20 RP and 3 sec to fire off. 1xDS = 15 RP and 1.5 sec to fire off, but it also requires 2 runes to be ready and sets 2 runes to the same CD. More HS's cast will result in faster RP build up (though I'm not thrilled with DC as its poor damage makes it really only worth interjecting in rune blackouts or while kiting out of range of the boss, i.e. Ignis). HS spam will not leave run blackouts the same way DS will.

2.) HS can hit two targets. If you are dealing with 2 or more targets even if you are not tanking both (again Ignis trash comes to mind) position yours next to the other and HS will help dps both and give you second threat on the other tank. This will net you more threat, though I wouldn't compare in a general way.

3.) DS is major healing value. I'll preface this by saying I don't use a single set rotation. You could say I use both of the ones you listed above, but more accurately I adapt my moves in real time adjusting for the situation and what is available to me. Simply, I use DS in one of 2 modes. When I don't need healing this will be used to turn over FU pairs for more death runes. Whether I use death runes for HS or DS is unimportant as I actually have the choice, and no matter what runes are up I can do either (DSing will just refresh them as Death runes, no opportunity lost). This side of it is what makes my overhealing upwards of 50%. On the other side, when I need healing, which is often as a tank =), I will use this when the timing is right to bump up my own heals. It works very well and I've gotten used to timing it so that my overhealing is negligible in these instances. Functionally, I rarely have more than two healers focusing on me at any given time (curse you Mimi and your plasma!) in 25s, and they generally expect that I will be contributing heals like another healer, so we work well as a team.

4.) Because of how I spent my points, I did not take Sudden Doom, I shifted the points to MoM after working it out to be a rather stronger gain on threat (and buffs both strikes so I can use them interchangeably as I do). I've found that HS spam still sits a head above for cruising threat when heals are not required, and if there is a second target it just offers more.


On a side note, IF you roll blood and use DRM to make use of lots of Death runes, Glyph of Disease is too perfect. I've found that HS spam with 1 rune to refresh diseases is a VERY powerful and versatile method. When I was Unholy, or when I switch to Frost now, I really feel the requirement of recasting IT and PS to refresh diseases. For them though, those are worth casting. Frost has a hefty IT, and Unholy has both a strong PS and IT. For Blood neither is particularly note-worth, so a one-click refresh leaves you a second rune to HS/BB or Rune Tap or Mark of Blood, etc, and it smooths out the rotation delightfully. Glyph of Disease is non-negotiable for me.

Keep up the good work!

Feanorr
05-25-2009, 11:17 AM
I didnt check all your math but it seem to be correct.

However, 2 thing to take into account: first, from my wws report, I would consider 50% overhealing on DS to be more accurate; 0% overhealing will never happer imo. And, from your math, even in best situation (DS glyph and sigil), the DS heavy rotation only win with 0% overhealing (and even there, it barely over the HS one).

Second, you have to consider what other glyph you can take over the DS one. I dont know exactly what your other glyph are but I assume glyph of disease and glyph of vampiric blood (too great for survival to pass imo). And, again from my wws report, you will gain more threat with a glyph of Runestrike than with the glyph of DS.


By the way, I dont use the glyph of disease anymore, for 2 reason. First, the threat difference isnt that huge (again, for me at least) between 1HS and 1 IT + 1 PS (I just took the direct damage not the diseases one's of course). And using a major glyph for this minor difference isnt worth it imo.
Second, with the glyph of disease, I was often with some rune up but not usable (exemple: 2 unholy rune up but the 2 frost one not). The reason may be lag, or one or 2 parry, but it was happening a lot. So I was "wasting" rune.

So I replaced it with the glyph of DnD to improve my AOE threat. I may change it for the DS one though.


Niniel

Molohk
05-25-2009, 01:26 PM
It's worth pointing out that using a DS heavy rotation could potentially open GCDs for dumping RP that unused go unused in a HS heavy rotation. Even without glyph/sigil for DS, it seems clear that even with a HS rotation, in high RP situations, overall threat could benefit from using DS instead HS, by allowing an extra GCD for DC dump (ie: DS+DC > HS+HS). For me, this could translate into using DS instead of HS when my RP comes close to 75-80.

So I agree with Satorri, the real value lies in having the option to chose between the two strikes dynamically.

Thanks for the numbers mate, keep up the good work.

Qhorin
05-25-2009, 02:18 PM
I dont use glyph of disease for the same reason as Feanorr. From what I have experienced you dont really gain much threat, if any. Look at it from this perspective, you gain a single rune by refreshing with pestilence but gain no additional threat. Does 1 extra heart strike make up the threat of PS + IT? Not in my personal experiance, especially when you figure in the extra threat you could gain by using either glyph of DnD or Death Strike instead. The Runes I am using at the moment are VB, Rune Strike (amazing with 2 piece T8 bonus), and DS. I am pretty happy with the setup, single target threat is very high and AoE is passable when needed. If they would add a higher threat modifier to Blood Boil in our talent tree somewhere (maybe in bloody strikes) I think blood would be a near perfect tree.

I really do think that DRM is pretty close to a required talent, you can still use a DS heavy rotation and easily switch to HS heavy when required. It also allows you to keep your blood runes on constant cooldown and still have runes available for VB, Runetap, or Mark of Blood if needed. DRM just provides too much flexability to be ignored.

Satorri
05-26-2009, 05:44 AM
I did out the math a while back with my DK in his current Blood tanking set, and found that glyph of DS was the exact same value as glyph of RS (actually very slightly better) until I get the 2 pc t8 tanking set bonus then the bonus stacks with glyph of RS and makes it a larger improvement. This is actually without drawback since the healing of DS no longer is based on the damage of the strike and that's what I'm more interested in from DS.

The funny thing about using a DS-focused rotation is that you do create more rune blackout voids to use, which typically is where you can dump RP freely. The problem is though, if you're focusing on DS you'll want to glyph it, which means to get the most damage out of it you'll want 75+ RP every time you strike, so that's not a good pairing with lots of RP dumping.

Esch
05-26-2009, 08:24 AM
The funny thing about using a DS-focused rotation is that you do create more rune blackout voids to use, which typically is where you can dump RP freely. The problem is though, if you're focusing on DS you'll want to glyph it, which means to get the most damage out of it you'll want 75+ RP every time you strike, so that's not a good pairing with lots of RP dumping.

Check me, but Glyph of Disease (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43827) only goes to 25 RP before it 'caps'. I normally try to do DS with 40 RP up, so I make sure I can get in RS procs and still maximize DS damage output. I can't see why you'd want 75+ RP unless there is some mechanic change I'm not aware of with this glyph.

Molohk
05-26-2009, 08:44 AM
Well, DC uses 40 RP, RS uses 20, and DS needs 25 to make the best use of the glyph. That means you can only use DC when you have around 80 RP, to make sure you always stay above 25 and you have enough RP for RS.

wazdaa
05-26-2009, 10:01 AM
i took 100% overhealing and 0 overhealing bc that way it's easy to see how big a contribution the healing is to your tps. and it's easy to work out to 50% healing, just devide the difference between the two by 2 and add it to the 0 healing (for the ppl who didn't pass math :p)

indeed after the mats i'm using more a combination of both. before i was under the impression that hs-heavy pulled way more tps and therefor better to not substitute to many ds's in. now i let the situation decide more.

as to putting in more dc's in rotation ds-heavy has 2 more free gcd so at best they can put out 2 more dc's. (1dc = 2887 threat in this gear setup) Hower like mentioned before the window to use them is rather small at least when using glyph of DS

i myself am only getting to the point where rs glyph is getting better then ds glyph (cursed exams, harsh watching from sideline while your guild conquers ulduar) but ofc it's a very valid point that you could swap in glyph of RS instead of DS one. that's reason why i calculated it without glyph aswell.

also on other forum someone pointed out a very valid point: healing increase effect. 6% healing from trees, disc priest or prot paladins and vampiric blood. if i have some more time (though that won't be any time soon) i'll add those aswell and do some research to at least try to factor in blood gorged aswell.

Satorri
05-26-2009, 10:54 AM
Guardian Spirit stacks with those as well. =)

Glyphed, Guardian Spirit can be up 17% of the time (10 sec per minute) for the 40% heal increase.

Mecer
05-26-2009, 12:23 PM
An aside wrt to Glyph of disease, a blood tank, does not have the deep Frost and Unholy talents that make either IT or PS damage the equivalent to Heart Strike. I would even go as far to say that the combination's damage is smaller than 1xHS (with all the talents in the blood tree that buff it).

Also if we are talking GCD and rune blackout, you are saving a full GCD for a RP dump, heart strike, or Death Strike. The later two which need both diseases up for maximum effectivness.

Appart from numbers the additional flexibility of being able to refresh both diseases with 1 button, while on the move, or when popping Blood Tap, weighs heavily in my mind. And yes DRM is an excellent talent when combinded with this glyph and HS.

Satorri
05-26-2009, 01:23 PM
To make this discussion a little more grounded in numbers I pulled an old WWS of mine. As Mecer said, you trade 2 runes (F, U) for 1 rune (B) cost, and 2 GCDs for 1 GCD. With a lot of single rune spending this can functionally allow for more HS's, though I'll treat the second CD as if there is not another run coming available any quicker, so it'll be only saved for an RP spend or a survival skill.

From my 25-man raid buffed average values (see Osyras in my characters if you aren't sure of my talents):
IT = 974 (16% crit rate, 4% miss chance)
PS = 952 (29% crit rate, don't ask me how, but on 54 hits that's what happened)
HS = 2007 (29% crit rate, +45% crit value)

so the crit/hit adjusted values for damage are:
IT = 1085 (*frost dmg, so not buffed by Blood)
PS = 1228
(IT + PS = 2313)
HS = 2851

Add to that, for the additional CD:
DC = 1561 (11% crit, 3% miss, should be about the same as IT but I don't use either much)

I also do not use Sudden Doom which would add a decent margin to HS threat.


Simply, this is strong support for Glyph of Disease, though I would use it anyway for the sake of simplicity in rotation, getting back extra free CDs makes for a lot more flexibility.

Feanorr
05-26-2009, 03:59 PM
hum you are gaining a GCD if you compare IT+PS vs Pest only; but if we want to compare threat we have to compare It+PS vs Pest+HS (because pest alone product 0 threat). So you replace IT + PS by Pest + HS. Same number of rune, and same number of GCD.

Then, it's only a matter of damage and I know that 1xHS is a little more threat than IT+PS (direct damage only since in both case diseases are still up). But like your math show it the difference isnt huge.
And I gain a major glyph who, I think, largely compensate (I didnt do the maths though).
About Sudden doom, I dont have it so for me it's not a factor, but even with it, I am not sure than it will make up for let say a glyph of DS (assuming our 2 first glyph is VB and RS).

And about the rotation, like I said, it make thing more complicated for me; maybe because of lag or I am too slow I dont know, but I always ended with some free runes not usable with the glyph of disease; it's not happening without it.

Satorri
05-27-2009, 06:09 AM
It's certainly not mandatory, or a HUGE deal equating "zomg nub why don't you use it?!"

It is nice, and it fundamentally changes the sequences you can accomplish and the investment. It also capsulizes blood's threat a little more. The spec compared to Frost (which is almost exclusively single staggered big hits) and Unholy (which has lots of tiny passive fast ticks punctuated with big nukes) it does lots of small cuts. IT/PS staggers two small hits over the two GCDs, and GoDisease just let's you wrap those into one big hit.

It's hard to explain or illustrate, but I think it actually gets me smoother rotations because of the insertion of tanking CDs, trinket clicks, and all the single rune spam. I've also been playing with the intrigue of side-effects. For example, if you set diseases and switch targets to one with no diseases and hit Pestilence, it will refresh all the other diseases even though your current target has no diseases. Limited usage, but it's in my bank of items yet to find their use. =)

Krenian
05-27-2009, 07:27 AM
The more I read about tanking the more I realize I know too little for my liking. I'm going to have to seriously read on some stuff considering I may have to tank a lot more often than I thought I was going to be.

Mecer
05-27-2009, 07:49 AM
I dont think Satorri (thank you btw for the numbers) or I are saying its a 'mandatory', but for us the proof is in the numbers. I personally hate reapplying diseases as Blood, hell my spec even includes Epidemic for the additional 6s (2 full rune cycles without having to hit pestilence, is nice), so the additional flexibility and speed GoDiseases gives me is priceless. I almost never have free runes down when Im in a grove so the ability to pop Blood Tap in a pinch to refresh both diseases helps.

I guess my point is that not only do the threat numbers of HS outweigh IT+PS for a Blood tank, but the flexibilty bonus permits tighter cycles and more adaptabilty in alot of situations.

Appologies to the OP for the derailment of this thread.

wazdaa
05-27-2009, 12:36 PM
Appologies to the OP for the derailment of this thread.
np it's relavant, bc refreshing diseases is part of any rotation.