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Velestin
05-23-2009, 01:42 AM
My guild does loot council. We have a steady 10man Ulduar group going. The two tanks are me a Frost DK tank and a blood DK tank(Respecced from frost). The other DK usually MT's. I was wondering what you thought about them making the decision that the MT gets all of tanking loot for progression and then OT gets it? I didn't think it was right and think it should at least be rolled between us.

One of his reasons was progression and that some fights didnt require a OT. I wasn't aware that for progression the MT gets all of the tanking loot. Just doesn't seem fair that OT gets seconds.

We are very close in gear and naxx25 man geared. He has few items better then me though.

Any thoughts on this please. =/

Shadoesbane
05-23-2009, 04:31 AM
i would saythat your MTs gear is a bit more critical than the OTs .. i would also say .. that unless the item is an upgrade for your MT than he should let it go to one of the OTs .. I would also ask you guild leaders what are the long term plan s for gearing your OTs .. in my guild we are trying to get a farming 10 man goin in Naxx so that we can gear up the other guildees .. so .. i think that the core of that group needs to be geared well enough to complensate for anyone whos gear is lacking .. but i think i would ask your guild leader what the plans are cuz we could all speculate about it .. and he could answer it

Ossix
05-23-2009, 04:49 AM
There are good arguments both for and against main tank gearing. If your guild chooses to give the MT priority on tanking loot, that's a reasonable decision. The question is, are you comfortable with the guild's loot system? If you are, stay. If you aren't, talk with the guild leadership about it. You may want to consider looking for another guild.

Personally, I'd be fine with the MT getting loot priority if there were a formal system like DKP where the MT was allowed to spend into the negative so they could get loot first. I'd be comfortable with that because I knew I'd eventually be able to catch up. I wouldn't be comfortable with MT gearing in a loot council system because I wouldn't have a built-in guarantee that I'd eventually get my fair share of loot.

That's just me, though. What matters is your feelings. What is it about the idea that makes you uncomfortable. Are you not confident that the guild will progress and that you will eventually get loot? Are you worried that the MT will leave the guild, putting all that gear the guild gave him to waste?

Also, how long have both you and the MT been with the guild?

Oblivion
05-23-2009, 04:58 AM
I'd done the MT/OT thing for awhile in a former guild. Being OT in a guild that used loot council, I had to accept that the MT would get priority in anything that was an upgrade, due to the fact that he was tanking the most important role or most difficult role of each fight and that as an OT, I wouldn't always be needed to tank. I came to something of an unspoken understanding with the MT at the time, he had priority on tanking gear that was an upgrade, I had priority on off-spec DPS gear that was an upgrade.

As for feeling like you're being passed over often, its just something you'll have to come to terms with. The majority of the time, the MT will get the glory and the status that comes with the gear, you need to be able to shrug that off and be willing to do(and enjoy, ideally) the quiet, dirty work that most people overlook. As an OT, you could argue that you're just as important to the guild's success as the MT. But it's a can of worms you're better off not opening.

All that said, I personally find the MT/OT thing a little archaic. I prefer to rotate tanks evenly so everyone is involved and being an officer in my current guild, I try to use the best tank for each fight, taking into consideration the mechanics and each class and player's strengths and skill-set. You can try to touch on that subject with your guild leaders if you're unhappy or feeling like a second-tier tank, or you can off-spec for DPS and on fights that don't require an OT, have some fun that way.

Lizana
05-23-2009, 04:40 PM
I am a MT, i am also a raid leader and a guild GM. Yes my guild uses MT loot priority. This means if a piece is an upgrade for a primary use tanking set then i have the loot before anyone else even has a chance. And all tank loot is handed out via raid leader. Does this mean that my OT's have to wait for a second drop to get it, yes it does, but this also means that the guild has a MT available to them for every raid no matter what. I have missed a whole 4 raids in over a year of raiding every day. No other tank can come close to that. I spend hundreds of gold every week buying flasks, scrolls, reagents ect for the raid. No other raider comes close to that. I am the first one in and the last one out of every raid, no other guildie comes close to that.

Is my system "archaic" and outdated, maybe, but my guild believes in rewarding those who put in the time and are willing to work for their gear.

I get gear to help everyone else get gear, unless you as OT are willing to say screw every other aspect of the game except helping the guidlies, i will continue to believe i deserve the loot before them . MT isnt just a raid role its a guild role.

minrog
05-24-2009, 12:07 AM
It is an archaic system that is still around for a reason. It amuses me when I see people ushering in new eras of "loot for everyone" or "death of the MT".

If your MT is very reliable you can gear up that 1 person in half the time it takes to gear up 2. If you have 3 tanks in the raid and 4 or 5 off tank capable players you're talking about slowing down your full gearup time by 3 to 8 times. If it's naxx and you don't give a shit fine but if the content is hard enough that you don't want to spend 3 months waiting for one of your tanks to have a full set you need to concentrate the drops.

My guild doesn't do it this way but sometimes I wish that we did. It takes us a long time to trivialize the encounters (not only due to the loot system) and our tank roster is too fluid for anyone to get well geared until the stuff we are fighting is behind by a tier. If you're an OT in a MT-first system keep in mind that most other systems are going to have slower progression rates than you are used to. You might have a bigger piece of the pie but the pie itself will probably be smaller.

Lyco
05-24-2009, 01:56 AM
Depends. If your MT dies alot he should get prio ( as he clearly isn't geared enough for your healers to keep up ) but if his TPS and Survivability are fine then just roll fairly.

Also remember you'll get the loot eventually, don't cause drama because you didn't get a certain piece of gear on the first drop.

Durandro
05-24-2009, 02:26 AM
Personally I think there should be a degree of balance involved, though the Main Tank should get priority most of the time.

Situations where an item that's a minor upgrade to the MT but a huge upgrade to the OT may warrent the OT getting the item instead, depending on their overall gear level. Having an overgeared MT and an undergreared OT is sometimes a bad thing, especially if you have to tank two hard hitting targets at once.

Though this is up to the loot council, and any agreements between the tanks on which items should go to who. But is it worth starting fights over? Of course not. Ultimately, if the boss goes down then everyone is a winner. And if you down the boss consistantly over a period of time then everyone will get their gear sooner or later.

Its up to whoever chooses who gets what item to carry out their task responsibly and in the best interest of the guild as a whole. There's no point having an MT who's BiS when all your OT's are in substandard gear that doesn't protect them enough to do their jobs. Though quite how you'd get BiS equipment if that was the case is another matter.

Lizana
05-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Depends. If your MT dies alot he should get prio ( as he clearly isn't geared enough for your healers to keep up ) but if his TPS and Survivability are fine then just roll fairly.
.

You do not gear for what your raid can farm clear, you gear for the content your guild is wanting to do. I will be geared enough as a tank when i can MT Arthas, until that day i am still undergeared...

Kataztrophe
05-24-2009, 09:33 PM
I'm an MT and my guild uses Loot Council. I used to be in a guild for over a year as an OT that had MT priority as well. Although now I have MT priority, I know when to pass. If you have an "honest" MT who wants his raid to succeed then the OT should not have to worry about much. If something drops and it would benefit another class better or is a substantial upgrade for an OT, then it's a simple pass. I've been in the OT's shoes before so I know how it is.

The only items I believe that should definitely go to an MT first are weapons (my threat > my OT's threat on trash), an item if it completes a valuable set bonus, or trinkets that boost stamina by a large margin (example - Heart of Iron).

Kataztrophe
05-24-2009, 09:37 PM
I'm an MT and my guild uses Loot Council. I used to be in a guild for over a year as an OT that had MT priority as well. Although now I have MT priority, I know when to pass. If you have an "honest" MT who wants his raid to succeed then the OT should not have to worry about much. If something drops and it would benefit another class better or is a substantial upgrade for an OT, then it's a simple pass. I've been in the OT's shoes before so I know how it is.

The only items I believe that should definitely go to an MT first 95% of the time are weapons (my threat > my OT's threat on trash), an item if it completes a valuable set bonus, or trinkets that boost stamina (example - Heart of Iron).

slackhoid
05-27-2009, 07:16 AM
I think this MT vs. OT thing is quite aged. With our small guild (only 6/14 Ulduar10) we always switch OT and MT roles depending on the encounter. Being DK I take care of Ignis adds, I OT XT pummellers because I can help AOEing the repair/bomb bots. So we just select roles based on which one has better tools for the role. The other tank is a warr (not even in our guild, but I'm glad he chooses to raid with us weekly) with gear a bit below mine, I'm the raid leader and guild master, but I've never even considered pulling any priority. We council and we roll if needed (I think we have rolled once on Ulduar tank items) and there has just been no issue. There are plenty of tank drops in Ulduar and tanks seem to be gearing faster than others anyway.

"MT role is more critical". Well, I some cases this maybe true gearwize, but so far I've found that in Ulduar the OT role is often much more fun and requires much more from player; gathering multiple adds after being slag-potted in Ingis or trying to survice 5 pummellers in XT while being chain-bombed just before tantrum.

Andwrand
05-27-2009, 07:55 AM
I didn't think it was right and think it should at least be rolled between us.

I think a lot of the post have cover the same points i would make, but i would say this is a question you should ask your guild leaders instead of telling the tankspot community that you didn't like who got the gear. Lets be honest, the item(s) will most likely drop again in a future raid.

Biggensak
06-01-2009, 06:55 AM
As a guild/raid leader and tank in our Uldar-10 progression team I find the simple "roll /need for primary spec upgrades" avoids most of the loot drama. People in our core group are good about speaking up when a particularly important in slot upgrade pops up and making sure drops are being distributed where they make the most sense for furthering our raid capabilities which helps a lot.

I am not of the mindset that any one of the 3 standard raid roles (tank/heal/dps) contributes any more than the other. It doesn't do me much good as a tank to be able to survive another 10 seconds on a fight if our DPS is not going to beat the enrage timer or our healers are going out of mana early. Perhaps in hardcore min/max raiding in a hardcore guild at the edge of the progression envelope there is a justification but for a majority of guilds I think loot favoritism toward tanks/healers is shortsighted.

As a guild/raid leader I think there's considerable value in making sure sure everyone understands their contribution is valued equally and that every week they show up only increases their odds of picking up some gear upgrades. I'm not sure about the rest of the guild leaders out there but summer and endgame burnout seem to be causing some attendance problems for raids. The more reason to give everyone to show up, the better. :)

trl
06-02-2009, 08:29 AM
i agree that the MT should be Upgrade priority in all raids period. As the Secondary MT in my guild i get the scraps and left overs then the OTs get whats left. So if you want priority either step up your game, voice up to your guild, or whine cry and find somewhere else. respect and the rewards for it are earned not give to you.

shez
06-10-2009, 09:41 AM
If you're talking about 10man, we have been doing ulduar 10man with a naxx10/25 geared OT, and half of the encounters he'll be dpsing, so i think giving loots to MT helps progression better than sharing the loots with another tank which does not tank all the time, but of course it may not seem fair to the OT.

In my guild, all 10man loots are just rolls, but if its better than stuff in 25man my OTs will pass for me, I also tend to pass stuff which drops in 10man to my OT since i get loot prioity in 25man.

A lot of fights are multiple tanks, but then a lot of them are still boss/add or single tank encounters.

I can take anything i want but i do not do that i if a piece is a major upgrade to 1 of the OTs, I will pass, if its just my offset, i'll also pass. I also let them have dps gear before me because they do dps in fights which only needs 1 tanks, and i will always be tanking in 25man guild run.

I had a lot of OTs who left the guild after gearing, and I have been in this guild for almost 2 years being 1 of the founders of the guild, and i'm very realiable, if I'm not available, which only happened a few times over 2 years, somoene in guild would have access to my account, so its not likely that i will gquit with all the gear.

Its true there's nothing i can't tank in ulduar 25 with naxx gear.. it just make it harder for healers, say we can take 1-2 more dps in place of healers. I did notice a difference with me being more gear on fights like general.

I think 1 very important point in MT priority is that you have to trust the MT won't get geared up then jumpship, i've seen that happen.

Cookie
06-11-2009, 11:45 AM
If there's MT prio only on tanking gear, it isn't too bad since so much gear drops and so often, that you'll get yours in no time. But if he's also getting token prio or is taking sidegrades over you when you would get a huge upgrade, then I would say that it's gquit time.

However, I do hope your guild is giving you prio on offspec gear, since theres some encounters in Ulduar 10 which need only one tank, so giving you dps gear before other people get their offspec gear does benefit the raid.

And btw, if your guild actually had 2 different classes as tanks, like druid/dk or warrior/dk, you wouldn't have this big a problem.



And as for gearing up the MT because he "needs" it, well there've been hard modes which were downed the first weeks Ulduar was released, which proves that the gear in Ulduar isn't really a necessity for completing the raid, it just makes life easier.

Muffin Man
06-11-2009, 12:02 PM
One of his reasons was progression and that some fights didnt require a OT. I wasn't aware that for progression the MT gets all of the tanking loot. Just doesn't seem fair that OT gets seconds.

The situation is probably aggravated since you're both DK's, but a few comments.

Getting tanks geared up fast is going to be important for hard modes (although Thorim, Iron Council tax both tanks close to equally). Even for normal modes Mimiron and Vezax are pretty demanding on the tank (singular) so it couldn't hurt for progression.

Since you're running 10 man it's likely you'll stay close behind the MT gearwise. Smaller loot tables means a better chance things will drop again. I've gotten pretty well geared running as the backup OT (the rest of the time I raid as arms).

Last, Naxx/25 gear -> Ulduar/10 gear isn't the biggest upgrade (and the KT loot is generally better both in ilvl and itemization, although I'm speaking as a Warrior) so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

GravityDK
06-12-2009, 04:46 AM
I would gear the MT and OT equally. For roles, use a tank corps, swap around who MTs which fights.

Freya for example, MT her is not the "glory" role of typical tank. It's pretty easy.

Daavos
06-12-2009, 10:01 AM
My guild does loot council. We have a steady 10man Ulduar group going. The two tanks are me a Frost DK tank and a blood DK tank(Respecced from frost). The other DK usually MT's. I was wondering what you thought about them making the decision that the MT gets all of tanking loot for progression and then OT gets it? I didn't think it was right and think it should at least be rolled between us.

One of his reasons was progression and that some fights didnt require a OT. I wasn't aware that for progression the MT gets all of the tanking loot. Just doesn't seem fair that OT gets seconds.

We are very close in gear and naxx25 man geared. He has few items better then me though.

Any thoughts on this please. =/

Hmmn... I generally find loot council to be the worst system as the players who are on the loot council, despite their honest intentions, usually end up social engineering the loot to themselves and are able to come up with a rational explinations. ie "We have to gear up the MT first"

Gearing up you're MT first, is putting a lot of trust and raid energy into one player. What if your "MT" can't make a raid? Loses interest in the game, or just isn't a very good tank. Also "Some" tanks who get geared quickly look at the rest of their guild and see their Nax purple guild mates as the reason they can progress and skip and join a new guild.

In your case as the OT you have a unique position, because you should be allowed to roll on Tanks and DPS gear. If it is acceptable for the MT to grab all the tank gear for progression, then it is also acceptable for you to sit at the table for DPS gear, because if you only need one tank, then "proggession" says you should have above average dps gear.

IMO there should never be a Guild MT and OT. Your MT is the player tanking the boss at the moment. It doesn't mean they're the MT for everything.

Molohk
06-12-2009, 10:13 AM
It really depends on how your raid is composed. I agree pretty much with Daavos, in my guild there's no real MT/OT roles, we have 3 tanks (warrior, pally, DK) and we want all of them to be able to tank any encounter (and off-spec dps when needed), mostly because we're not that hardcore, and we don't want to force any of the tanks to be there 100% of the time (the 3 of us like to take a day off every now and then). Because we are a bit laid back, mature, and we don't really carry slackers in the raid, we just go by free-rolling and it's not uncommon to see someone pass on an item to someone else who needs it more.

Salloman
06-12-2009, 11:13 AM
My 2 cents for whatever its worth:

2 issues:

1: Loot council, it works or its doesnt, enough said, im not a fan for this reason.

2. I dont see the same importance in a Defined MT/OT roles in WOLK. I would on certain encounters suggest that your OT should be the better geared and your MT not so much. Meaning the roles are reversed and such. You have your tanks, they need gear and the best possible gear at that. Chances are, in an encounter if your OT dies cause their gear is lacking, then the raid fails? And the same holds true for your MT, then they should be treated equally. *shrug... but you get my point. Priority to the MT has advantages, but sharing it equally also has advantages.

protonly
06-16-2009, 09:24 PM
Another issue hinted upon is the plight of the off-tank. They're needed to handle adds/trash in some situations and needed to dps/heal in other situations. For all guild/raid intents, they are dps/heal as main spec and tank as secondary spec since the reality is they only need them for certain situations.

How the hell do you gear up? You have to roll/spend dkp on every item since you have, basically, two "main" specs. How do you handle tier tokens? Does the RL/GM tell you how to spend that token (does he even have the right?) [Hey if they pay for the gems and enchants, I'll spend it how they want...otherwise it is my choice]