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Bigtime
05-22-2009, 02:32 AM
I've been playing with a new raiding guild. I've been appointed as raid leader, largely thanks to my in-depth knowledge of the encounters (thanks Tankspot!).

Although I feel like I may be getting ahead of myself, I have concerns about the guild. Basically, myself and maybe 4-5 others are skilled players who understand boss encounters and can execute them properly. We have maybe 3 mediocre players and 2 total bads. While the 3 mediocre ones show signs of improvement every raid, the bads remain bad.

I explain the boss fights in detail, but they are incapable of executing anything properly besides a tank and spank fight... we have one-shotted Patchwerk every week, but still wipe on Grand Widow Faerlina because the bads repeatedly kill the Worshippers first. They fail every retard check in Naxx... they die on Heigan within the first 15-20 seconds every attempt without fail, they shoot spores from range on Loatheb, they die on Frogger every attempt without fail, they just stand there on Grobbulus and die due to their own cloud... they just totally suck.

It's obvious that when we get to the Four Horsemen, Thaddius etc. we will most likely hit a brick wall due to the bads. We don't have the gear to "8-man" encounters like that yet, and there's no reason why we should have to.

As a raid leader/GM, how do you deal with bads when a lot of the group shows a large amount of promise?

Martie
05-22-2009, 02:37 AM
Get some more raiders would be the obvious answer...

On the other side, you could take the ass-approach, and call them out, by name, every time they screw up. Make sure they all know they are screwing up, and put punishments on repeated shows of stupidity.
(We have a few people in our raids that sometimes have issues swapping targets in time - I try calling them out on vent by name, reminding them to swap targets. It works, they do seem to realize after a few tries that they should pay a bit more attention.)

In a worst case scenario, kick them from the raid and replace them with puggers. Make clear to them that they are not performing up to spec and that they are getting another chance in the next raid.

bludwork
05-22-2009, 08:19 AM
Have you considered changing the atmosphere in your raids? The symptoms you describe tells me the bads don't take raiding seriously they probably laugh and drop dumb things because the raid/guild leaders aren't hammering the concept of "no stupid allowed" when doing boss encounters.

Ayne
05-22-2009, 09:16 AM
I think the key is to determine if they are really "bad" players, or do they not understand what is expected and or what to do?

I had a friend of mine just start playing the game recently, he rolled a paladin, because he played one for 7 years in EQ. He had no idea of how to play the game, or what to do. At first glance, you could easily assume that he was just a bad player, but what he really needs is some guidance. We were all noobs at one point (when the game first came out, I stacked spirit on my Tauren Warrior because I wanted to regen my health faster for example) but it was through experience, research, and feedback from other players that helped us.

You may really have some just flat out bad players that are doing nothing to improve themselves and aren't taking guidance or direction at all. If that is the case, they need to be replaced ASAP. Its not fair to the rest of your crew to allow them to continually cause issues.

Before taking the steps to fix it, and creating the drama that it will cause, do some research on your own to verify what type of players you are actually dealing with.

Lyco
05-24-2009, 01:58 AM
Be selective.
Recruit 10 new members, and keep only the best ( which might be just 1 or 2 players ).
In my oppinion it's not worth holding 8 great players back because 2 slackers are just leeching of your raids.

Twilíght
06-04-2009, 04:32 PM
I think the fact that you go through the tactics thoroughly to each boss should be enough. Not to sound harsh to any new raiders as I am one myself but if you honestly have no clue how to go about the raid, don't go. Even if you have a fair idea and are capable of executing what is needed of you with as much accuracy as possible then that should do the job until you have a proper feel for the raid. In my opinion you should first talk to the two 'bads', there could be an underlying reason why they are so. In the meantime try to find replacements. You could have a few trial runs with different players to see which fits in properly with your group.

Cookie
06-05-2009, 06:03 AM
Punish the bads, ie -dkp, failbot, having them sit out on raids and reward the people who do well, +dkp or free gems/enchants from the guild bank or prio on spots.

Don't have enough members to sit them out? Pug their spot or start recruiting more. People who repeatedly screw up on simple things like which target to dps obviously do not care, and shouldn't be taken to a raid.

Don't have dkp? Use a loot prio system similar to suicide kings where as soon as you screw up once, you drop to the bottom of the prio list. The good people will most likely only drop there once or twice in the rare event that they screw up, while the bads will just stay at the bottom permanently.

Theotherone
06-05-2009, 12:31 PM
I can only imagine how they do on Thaddius. I tend to think the comment about them not taking this seriously is probably the pretty close to true. My 10 year old plays and has completed Naxx, OS (reg and heroic), VoA (reg and heroic) and is plugging away at H Nax - this isn't rocket science. Then again it's a game and one should have fun, my advice would be to speak with them frankly and in private. If they really don't take it seriously - and thats fine; it's a game - they should bow out because they're being unfair to the rest of the group. If they want to participate, then in fairness they should make a real attempt to learn the fights.

If it's not focus, then they're just morons and you since you can't unlearn stupid, they have to go or you'll lose your good people.

Dhalphir
06-12-2009, 07:03 PM
Only you know whether they are truly bad and have no desire to improve, or are just ignorant and nobody has given them any guidance.

But if they're truly bad, at least have some fun with them at their expense, make them feel as useless as they are, while you look for replacements.

"Oh look, <name> exploded his cloud in the raid again. Good job man."
"Oh hey, you died to Frogger again. Congrats, you still suck"

And so on and so forth. Amuse yourself at their expense, if they continue to show no desire to improve.

twoswords
07-07-2009, 11:45 PM
I've been playing with a new raiding guild. I've been appointed as raid leader, largely thanks to my in-depth knowledge of the encounters (thanks Tankspot!).

Although I feel like I may be getting ahead of myself, I have concerns about the guild. Basically, myself and maybe 4-5 others are skilled players who understand boss encounters and can execute them properly. We have maybe 3 mediocre players and 2 total bads. While the 3 mediocre ones show signs of improvement every raid, the bads remain bad.

I explain the boss fights in detail, but they are incapable of executing anything properly besides a tank and spank fight... we have one-shotted Patchwerk every week, but still wipe on Grand Widow Faerlina because the bads repeatedly kill the Worshippers first. They fail every retard check in Naxx... they die on Heigan within the first 15-20 seconds every attempt without fail, they shoot spores from range on Loatheb, they die on Frogger every attempt without fail, they just stand there on Grobbulus and die due to their own cloud... they just totally suck.

It's obvious that when we get to the Four Horsemen, Thaddius etc. we will most likely hit a brick wall due to the bads. We don't have the gear to "8-man" encounters like that yet, and there's no reason why we should have to.

As a raid leader/GM, how do you deal with bads when a lot of the group shows a large amount of promise?

Make a group outside of the raidtime and speak to them about it. Ask them how they feel and how it comes that they keep doing the same mistakes over and over. At this point you also need to mention to them that if they do not shape up they will be spoiling it for the rest of the raid and you can not have that; if they dont wisen up they will not get invited to the raids.

Its harsh, but its the only way. This is how I found out that one of my raiders who never improved mostly watched TV during the bossfights. (Yes, he kept dying.)

EDIT: Have someone else of the same class talk to them and see if they can help. If they still dont show improvement after that...tell them they will need to stand over a raid or two, then let them try again. If they are still just as bad..tell them you can no longer give them a spot.

Gilitemara
07-11-2009, 03:52 PM
How to deal with bads and keep your core group together?

Good question. How to either make the bads better or remove them in such a fashion that you do not alientate the rest of your raid group?

I think this is the gist of what you are asking. I have found in such situations that if the answer is not obvious then you do not have enough information.

They make alot of mistakes, but why? I see 2 possible reasons.

1. They do not know what to do.
2. They know what to do but are incapable of doing it.

If they do not know what to do, why don't they? Do they not understand your directions? English is their second language? They do not pay attention? Something else?

If they do know what to do but are incapable of doing it, then why not? Lack of skill? Lack of concentration? Playing on a poor computer? Something else?

Once you know the answer to these question the decision should be easy, but how to go ahead an implement your decision and do they least harm to your group?

I expect you will either be able to help them by getting them to understand how much harm they are doing to the group by being unprepared or by teaching them something simple they have missed somewhere. If not you will have to ask them to leave or not invite them anymore. Either way it needs to be done in a way that they rest of the Raid group understands your decision and supports how you have done it.

Repeatedly embarrasing someone until they leave will upset others in your Raid group. Pointing out mistakes so everyone can learn is useful. It is alot like being a player/coach of an athletic team. You lead the team and you are part of it. It becomes your responsibilty to point out errors and try to help everyone learn and improve from them. And occasionally replace players who are hurting the team.

How you make your decision will be based on your style. There are alot of succeesful coaches out there who have very different styles. Given that this is not a professional game your approach will have to be more like that of a recreational league than the majors.

Sort of a "Well Bill you have dropped 4 out of the 5 fly balls hit to you this game and you do not seem to be getting any better. I talked to the guys and we would actually like to make it to the playoffs this year so I have decided to bring Mike in. If you get some practice and start making those catches I am sure we will have a spot for you next year."

Sedgewick
08-16-2009, 10:37 PM
I'd have to agree. Make it known days before the raid that you expect everyone to come prepared and educated on the boss fights. Then simply have EnsidiaFails running during the raid. Every time a name popped up on that list, everyone would see who was dropping the ball. It's hard to have upset feelings when you're replaced due to facts and numbers. Classic L2P before you raid.

I guess it just depends upon how sensitive the guild is.