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silvertusks
05-20-2009, 07:04 AM
My guild is experiencing a problem that may be familiar to many of youÖWe have a solid core of about 15 raiders but the other 10 seem to be a constant rotation of new or semi-casual players. It is stated in our recruitment post and on our web site that we want consistent people interested in raid progression but this is rarely what we get. So we end up taking less then optimally geared people, gearing them up then they decide to go to a faster progressing guild or decide they donít really want to raid. We are stuck doing Naxx 25 over and over because we canít get enough people on consistently with the gear required for Ulduar. (Other then Flame) I donít get many responses from our recruitment post on our realm form so we end up taking a lot of referrals. (Usually under geared) The long time members are starting to show the stress of the same old routine ever week. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to build a solid reliable core when you are not the top tier raiding guild on your server?

Venatori
05-20-2009, 08:14 AM
We have the same problem. What I've been doing is just keep trying, but while you wait do some 10 man Ulduar. This should keep the loyal people happy and they'll get experience with the bosses. It'll also hopefully get the rest of your guild in gear when they see a bunch of you in Ulduar and they wished they could be there.

Anyway, good luck to you as we're in pretty much the same boat!

veneretio
05-20-2009, 08:19 AM
My guild is experiencing a problem that may be familiar to many of youÖWe have a solid core of about 15 raiders but the other 10 seem to be a constant rotation of new or semi-casual players. It is stated in our recruitment post and on our web site that we want consistent people interested in raid progression but this is rarely what we get. So we end up taking less then optimally geared people, gearing them up then they decide to go to a faster progressing guild or decide they donít really want to raid. We are stuck doing Naxx 25 over and over because we canít get enough people on consistently with the gear required for Ulduar. (Other then Flame) I donít get many responses from our recruitment post on our realm form so we end up taking a lot of referrals. (Usually under geared) The long time members are starting to show the stress of the same old routine ever week. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to build a solid reliable core when you are not the top tier raiding guild on your server?
Breakdown the whole process.

How were the last 5 people for raiding recruited?

How many raids did they go to?

Why exactly did they leave?

What's your vent chatter like?

How strong of raid leader do you have?

What's your loot system like?

How welcomed are new members into established 10 mans?

How welcomed are new members into 5 mans?

Add anything else that's sorta relevant that you can think of. There's so many factors for a guild that need answers before we can properly advise you. The guilds that work aren't keeping 1 big secret. It's a lot of little things that keep the ball rolling. New guilds usually need to rely on creating a respectful community with fair loot under a charismatic leader. If you're lacking any of those 3, you'll lose people.

Squirrelnut
05-20-2009, 08:23 AM
We were in a similar situation and although our approach is tough and definitely won't work for everyone it has worked very well for us... We merged with another guild.

Basically we really lucked out in finding another guild that was in basically the same situation as us with around 15 core players that were mainly Heals & some DPS while we were mainly Tanks & DPS so we fit together perfectly.

We made a new guild that everyone joined and took a few officers from each of the old guilds so that there were limited power struggles etc and combine loot council with a new DKP system so that everyone started out on the same foot.

There have been some issues and some players ragequit because they had to sit out (we now have around 30 people wanting to raid, a nice change) or weren't pulling their weight but in the end it worked really well and we were able to progress through Thorim 25m our first night. We continue to have issues trying to find our core but at least now we have a much larger pool of players to draw from to figure out who wants to be dedicated and those who don't care or prefer to be more casual can basically get the boot :P

I expect we will get some nice attempts in on Yogg 25m this week w00t

Warwench
05-20-2009, 08:23 AM
Silver, the best chance you have of getting this worked out is to answer Vene's stuff above, he's pretty good with this stuff. The more detail you can give him, the better he will be able to help you.

Dubzil
05-20-2009, 08:30 AM
We have been having the same kind of issues. We do a few things to help with attendance:
1) implement loot system that gives priority to people based on attendance (we do free rolls, if you show up all 3 raid days the previous week you /roll 100, if you miss a day its /80, if you miss 2 its /60, miss all days its /50)

2) guild bank repairs help a TON with attendance on progression. A lot of people don't want to show up, get no loot and just have a nice 200g repair bill. We have been selling hodir's BoE shield as well as 25 man 3 drake mounts, naxx25 runs for abyss crystals to sell.

This has helped a lot so far, Once we have the attendance will will switch loot system based on attendance AND preformance, but for now we really need people to show up, so its based solely on attendance.

hbombs
05-20-2009, 08:30 AM
With the ease of content (although that is changing quickly with ulduar) you will find that there are many guilds in your position. Its even harder for the better guilds to recruit solid members.

I hate to say it but a merger might help. Dont pick some established guild cause only a few will make it. Find a guild in your position and give it a shot.

It is a huge risk your taking im not gonna lie. But I have to imagine it will be hard finding new members so easily with summer right around the corner.

Squirrelnut
05-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Most mergers I expect wouldn't work, ours was ideal because our two guilds were in virtually identical situations with players complimenting eachother combining heals/dps with tanks/dps, good officers and clear raid days, times, rewards.

The 2 GMs (one has to be fine with relinquishing that role to become an officer) and officers really need to be on the same page and want to take the same approach with things for a merge to be even remotely viable but if you can find something like we did it can work really well and instead of recruiting for a month and possibly losing some people while you wait we got to jump right back into 25m Ulduar progression.

silvertusks
05-20-2009, 11:25 AM
Thank you for all the replies so far. We did absorb a small guild with good people about a month ago but we were very lucky to know the people and 90% of them joined with us. Other then that we have gotten 2 from the realm recruiting post and the remainder from referrals in the guild.

Veneís Questions:
How were the last 5 people for raiding recruited?
1 from Realm form post, 4 from friend referrals

How many raids did they go to?
I know the latest 2 attended our last raid which was the first since they joined. As for older then that I canít say for sure since I didnít invite most of them. I am seeing a need to have EVERYONE app on the web site here.

Why exactly did they leave?
1 rage quit when he switched mains and his new toon went back to initiate level and could not roll on an item.
We has a bunch leave because they only want to PvP. A few left because they sold their toons.

What's your vent chatter like?
Light Ė Some strat talk, mostly non-game related chat. On new Ulduar content its mostly strategy talk.

How strong of raid leader do you have?
We are lacking here. We donít have a consistent person for strategy; itís usually the person who has done the most research. I handle the pace setting and getting people to focus.

What's your loot system like?
Open rolls by rank: members and above then initiates then off spec.
226 level items and above are loot council.

How welcomed are new members into established 25 mans?
No real initiation. We are usually a few short so new people get into the raids on their first night.

How welcomed are new members into established 10 mans?
We have a core U10 team with maybe 2 or 3 spots that change per week. Any other 10 mans are up to the guild members to organize.

How welcomed are new members into 5 mans?
Donít have any regularly scheduled 5 manís any more. Most people donít need any gear from 5 mans. Those that do are encouraged to make groups during non raid times.

veneretio
05-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Based on your responses, I'd first say, you don't have a lot to worry about. Recruitment is a slow process and by the looks of it, you haven't seen a lot of turnover really. Things like people wanting to PvP or quitting the game are issues for all guilds be they established or not.

Big issues I'm seeing:
1. Someone needs to step up and be THE raid leader. By the sound of it, this could be you if you just did your research before hand. If you're not up for it, that's fine, but you really need an established person here that knows what they're doing consistently. A raid leader is expected of a raid guild so without one you're just going to seem very unprofessional to anyone looking for a raid guild.

2. You need to solve mains and alts. By the sounds of it, you allow the switching of mains without too much hassle. My recommendation would be to stop allowing this immediately and only allow someone to change mains or even their role (tank, dps, healz) if an officer or the raid leader gives them the opportunity. It's near impossible to run proper raids when you've got people relearning how to play every month.

3. Simplify your loot system. As much as I hate Loot Council, either go with it completely or not at all. I'd recommend looking into EPGP as I've heard great things about it. Sticking to rolls could work too, but you'll never get anywhere my saying "we're only doing it for crappy items". Ultimately, the worst thing you can do is create this perception that some items are so good that you don't want to put them up to chance b/c the result is people really make getting those items there goal. You need to create an atomsphere where you're getting items to raid not where you're raiding to get items.

4. Make a 2nd 10 man team. Once you can get 2 going side by side it makes it way easier to keep a 25 man going. Not just b/c you'll have 10 more people raiding frequently, but also b/c you'll have another person or two that's comfortable with leading if they need to. You're really alienating people by offering only a single 10 man especially newer guild members that are looking for a place to belong. During our most stable time in TBC, we were running 3 10mans consistently as well as an alt 25 man giving endless options for people to prepare for the real 25 mans.

I know I've left you with a lot to think about, but most of all, you really just need to create consistency. That's what all the best guilds have going for them. They aren't where they are b/c they have the best players always, but instead b/c they treat the players they have fairly and consistently. I'll leave you with a few other ideas that we use....

- We open up the gbank for repairs on heavy progression nights.
- We provide the mats for all enchants to gear acquired in raids. 10 mans help facilitate this by donating all enchanting mats acquired via DEing back to the gbank
- We provide all the glyphs.
- We give away BOE epics/blues.
- We pay for respecs if people need to do them to aid the raid for 1 night.
- Way give away gold for /rolls for first time boss kills. The longer the kill has taken, the more we give. (Kael back in the day was like 5000g+ between a few people)

One final thing, the best people I ever recruited over TBC were from pugging with my healer friend constantly. The 2 of us being able to give 3 dpsers an amazing 5 man experience over and over gain got us more quality players than we ever got waiting for applicants to read our recruitment posts. (try to get them to hop on vent especially)

Best of luck.

Kelstet
05-20-2009, 01:12 PM
Big props to veneretio, I couldn't have said it better myself, I also echo the last part. Pug 5's with a solid guildie, heal/tanks does seem to work best, unless that's not what you are looking for, then I'd say leave the slot's open as fitting and see what breaks out. People that pug with you will see your ethics and how you treat others and alot of times be attracted by that. I can't tell you how many I've gotten just getting out there and tanking some stuff. If nothing else you find some non guildies you can rock with during down time.

Additionally getting another solid 10 man going, if not 2 will help immensely because you create solidarity for those guys, and gals that are going to be running with you on your 25 man adventures. Keep at it, it can be tough but ultimately it's rewarding if that's where you want to be.

I run the raiding schedule for a casual guild where we raid two nights a week, one night for 25's and one for our 2 10's to run and honestly, it's been working well thus far.

Kel

silvertusks
05-22-2009, 06:53 AM
Vene, thank you for your response. I agree that our main issue has been our inconsistency. I have put a lot of rules into place in the past week to attempt to address some of the issues.
- No alts in raids unless we someone to fill in.
- Loot rules to reward the dedicated, consistent raiders first. Giving dibs to member and above over trials.
- Getting all the officers on the same page with new rules so they are applied consistently
- Getting guild members informed on vent before raids and on the web forms.

Raid leading. Has been too ad-hoc. Iíll explain some then someone else will fill in some more details, etc. I havenít been happy with the way it has been going. I need to step up here.

As far as recruiting goes, I hadnít thought of the 5 man pug way. When we used to pug people for Naxx 25 or OS25 I remember we picked up a bunch of people that way.

Also, I am trying to get another Ulduar 10 going so that more people can get experience in their and also not feel left out. We also usually have a Naxx 10 on the weekend for to help gear up people.

Your entire feed back was excellent. I have started many of your suggestions and plan in incorporating more into my plan. We have good officers that will go along with all this as well.

Thanks everyone. Iíll try to post back with an update in a week or 2.

Lyco
05-22-2009, 11:32 AM
Also the most important thing is a healthy community in the guild. Don't allow for any form of flaming, and never tolerate bastards to stay in your guild.

It has to be a fun place to be. You'll raid at night, but most the time you spend in a guild will be just chatting away while you're questing/farming/idle in dalaran.

Get that family feeling going!