PDA

View Full Version : Unbreakable - Adaptable Raid Composition



Horaxe
05-18-2009, 08:46 AM
Overview
Recently, I was considering the effects of dual-specs on raiding. This issue has become especially pertinent considering my guild is in the process of moving from 10 to 25 man raids. Since we are at a recruitment/build up phase, it was time for consideration of what classes we need. As such, spent a lot of time researching. So, I sat down and worked with mmo-champion's raid comp tool (MMO-Champion RaidComp (http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/)) and below is the result. This, is what I'm looking for when I'm looking at possible recruits. And I wanted to share my ideas with all of you, and explain why I'm thinking this way. See below for further explanation.

Goal Raid Composition: link (http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=15euq00000jsf3ncai4mhod69god690000000000)

Tank Group:
[T] Death Knight
[T] Druid
[T] Paladin
[T] Warrior
[D] Warlock
* 2 (if not 3) of the tanks will be DPSing most of the time, and should have a second spec with appropriate gear.
* Warlock needs 3 points in Improved Imp.

DPS Group (Melee):
[D] [Rogue (Assassination)
[D] Warrior (Arms)
[D] Paladin (Retribution)
[D] Death Knight
[D] Shaman (Enhancement)

DPS Group (Ranged):
[D] Mage (Arcane)
[D] Mage (Arcane)
[D] Priest (Shadow)
[D] Druid (Balance)
[D] Shaman (Elemental)

Heal Group:
[H] Priest (Holy)
[H] Shaman
[H] Paladin
[H] Druid
[D] Hunter

Heal Group:
[H] Priest (Discipline)
[H] Shaman
[H] Paladin
[H] Druid
[D] Hunter


Legend:
[T] Tank
[D] DPS
[H] Heals


0==}======> Exposition v1.0 <======{==0

Stacking
You might be wondering, why this setup in particular? Why so many tanks, why so many healers? Etcetera. First, a big part of my method here is to future proof the roster. By that I mean, if DK tanks get nerfed into the ground, and become suddenly laughable for progression content. We have 3 other tanks to fill the gap. The same applies of course for the other tanking classes. Also, different tanks excel in different areas, if for instance we find Druids make the perfect tank for a particular encounter. We have one. Same goes for the others, this allows for great flexibility, the raid can adapt; unlike a guild stacked with 4 Warrior tanks.

This also allows for a breather, tanking can be stressful (progression tanking especially) and the last thing we want is our resident meat shields becoming burnt out. Having the four switching in different tanking configurations, allowing this or that tank the ability to DPS rather than tank keeps the tanks fresh.

Another valid point, is that having 4 geared tanks for 25s means we have 4 tanks to do 2 separate 10 man instances as well. Which is great in the event of new instances such as 3.1's release of Ulduar.

Similarly, healers are in the same boat. Some fights may be very healer heavy. In which case, it's possible and likely that all 8 healers would be employed, or even some of the DPS switching to their secondary heal spec to help. Conversely, other fights may be simply DPS races, in which case one or more healers may switch to DPS specs. Likewise, having such flexibility with specs allows for stacking DPS, etc for hard modes as needed.

The Spread
In setting up this goal list, I wanted to ensure a reasonably even spread in character classes. Admittedly, there are times where this falls short in the list. Only 1 Rogue, 2 DKs, but 4 Druids and 2 Mages? Well, the first consideration is the tokens used for tier armor:

I tried to make this as even as possible, 3x8=24. So someone has to be the odd man out with 9 people competing in their bracket.

Token A Breastplate of the Wayward Vanquisher (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45634) - 1 Rogue, 2 Death Knight, 4 Druid, 2 Mage [9 people]
Token B Breastplate of the Wayward Conqueror (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45632) - 4 Paladin, 3 Priest, 1 Warlock [8 people]
Token C Breastplate of the Wayward Protector (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45633) - 2 Warrior, 2 Hunter, 4 Shaman [8 people]

My goal here is to present a balanced roster in every sense of the word, and minimize competition for loot. No one likes rolling against 12 DKs, 3 Druids, and 4 Rogues. And that kind of group isn't going to be adaptable either. So, if you are reading this and have any questions, corrections, or concerns: please let me know. Criticism is welcome, that's one of the reasons I posted it here. Thanks for reading, hope this was in some way helpful.

Lyco
05-19-2009, 11:41 PM
Afaik imp commanding shout overwrites the warlocks imp.
Besides that 4 tanks really is overkill, Possibly have them run as DPS off, but your 4th tank will just get bored because on bosses he'll be doing nothing.

Besides that it seems like a solid setup. This is what we use:
MMO-Champion RaidComp (http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=u2edf3stjnmbq94mbq9ihg66o000000000000000)

Horaxe
05-20-2009, 05:59 AM
Hmm, not sure about the Imp buff and Commanding Shout not jiving together, but it's something I'll definitely be looking into. As for the rest, all of the tanks have a second spec for DPS (there's a not about it just under the tank group). The reason for having all 4 is diversity and to keep tanks fresh, one guy can switch out on particular fights if he's not suited to to AE tanking for example.

brutus009
05-20-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm approaching 80 and building a ten man team that will rely heavily on dual spex as well. I like what you've done here.

As a ten man team, I'm being sure to recruit one candidate from each class, and will ask each member to maintain a Best-In-Slot list to do our best to ever avoid wasting loot.

Best of luck!

RPZip
05-22-2009, 08:46 AM
Hmm, not sure about the Imp buff and Commanding Shout not jiving together, but it's something I'll definitely be looking into. As for the rest, all of the tanks have a second spec for DPS (there's a not about it just under the tank group). The reason for having all 4 is diversity and to keep tanks fresh, one guy can switch out on particular fights if he's not suited to to AE tanking for example.

Commanding Shout definitely overwrites the Imp buff.

You really can't support 4 fulltime tanks; we've got 3 and we still have one respeccing for DPS on nearly every fight, sometimes two. Recruit a <insert class here> with an offspec tanking set and the ability to do it competently, but don't plan on having 4 real tanks. It just won't work. I'd agree with going for one of each class for flexibility, but you will certainly end up with one of them on fulltime DPSing duty if not two of the "tanks".

8 healers is almost always overkill as well; use a Boomkin or Elemental Shaman for offspec healing (Ret or Enhance or Feral can also work, but in my exprience melee tend to not make very good healers).


I tried to make this as even as possible, 3x8=24. So someone has to be the odd man out with 9 people competing in their bracket.

The Vanquisher tokens have a 40% drop rate, and the other two have 30%, so you can actually get almost perfect gear distribution with 10 Vanq and then 7 or 8 for the other two.

Horaxe
05-22-2009, 12:48 PM
Our current situation is me as MT (Blood DK) warrior who has BIS DPS gear (pre Ulduar) with a solid Naxx 25 tanking set. Our Paladin is our other tank and has a ret set. So, that leaves us looking for a Druid, since the Pali isn't always there, and sometimes he just plainly doesn't want to tank. I'm looking for another "full time" tank. The warrior and pali are fine doing DPS 90% of the time, but perfectly capable of tanking when called upon. So ... that's how I'm designing our raid force. As for the healers, I feel it's understood that most healers will have a secondary DPS spec (yes, most not all) for example, we have one Shaman with a great heal set and Enhance set. She will likely be going Enhance most of the time, but be able to sub in to heal when needed. So, I'm thinking 6 "core" healers most likely, and then the rest DPS that "can" heal in a pinch. I just don't want to break it down to the point of saying "you have to be this spec AND this spec. And I expect you to work on gear for both" I just don't think that's entirely right, and not the environment I'm trying to foster. So, to clarify. I'm looking to get a minimum of 8 people in the raid that "can" heal. Not 8 people, who will always be healing.


The Vanquisher tokens have a 40% drop rate, and the other two have 30%, so you can actually get almost perfect gear distribution with 10 Vanq and then 7 or 8 for the other two.

This is a very interesting point, in light of other things I could see possibly dropping the other warrior and adding a second rogue or something. Or possibly a Mage, but I'm not sure. A few places like that I'd say it is the dreaded "bring the player, not the class" I'd look for a rogue/mage whoever does the most DPS.

minrog
05-24-2009, 12:35 AM
It looks like you are already sitting on 7 melee DPS so if you feel like swapping in a Rogue/Mage I would pick the Mage. It seems like there is way too much spell power/caster itemization and much lower levels of leather melee gear.