PDA

View Full Version : Four Tanks Side by Side.



Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Needs More Salt: Tanks Side by Side (http://randthotgen.blogspot.com/2009/05/tanks-side-by-side.html)

Re posting this and looking for input. What are the strengths and weaknesses of your tanking class?

I will break down each tank individually in time but I need to understand them first. I have a pretty good idea on Paladin and Warrior tanking and their pro's and con's. DKs and Druids I have very little knowledge about how a 3.1 tank works let alone the in's and outs.

I made a little chart weighing the strengths and weaknesses of the four classes in several catagories:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z-_7E_aFHmY/Sg3yZ8okMHI/AAAAAAAAABA/LZTuUWROWfY/s320/Tanks.JPG (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z-_7E_aFHmY/Sg3yZ8okMHI/AAAAAAAAABA/LZTuUWROWfY/s1600-h/Tanks.JPG)



Damage Mitigation: The more damage you can avoid taking, the better it is for your healers, and you will stay alive longer. This is typically melee damage. Paladin's typically take the least damage overall with blocks and high armor. Druids and Warriors take similar amounts of incoming damage depending on the uptime of a druid's Savage Defense; Druids have higher armor, so I would assume their damage intake will be lower. DK's are made to be avoidance tanks, so they will get hit harder when attacks land as they typically have less armor than the other classes.




Total Health: The more health you have, the bigger hits you can take before you die. This stat is most useful for bosses who deal large blows very slowly. After 3.1 DK's and Druids got big HP nerfs but they still have the largest health pools of all the tanks. Paladins are next since their stam coefficient is higher than Warriors.




Avoidance: How often the boss Misses/Dodges/Parrys when he tries to attack you. Avoidance is typically a secondary category to gear for as it is based on random chance. If you fail to avoid several attacks in a row, this could end up killing you if you cannot mitigate the damage or if the incoming damage is more than your total HP. DK's win this round, followed by Druids with their crazy high dodge rate. Paladin's typically have more avoidance than warriors ceteris paribus as agility gives us more dodge than warriors, although I don't see much plate with agility on it. I need to get some data for the warrior/pally avoidance.




Cooldowns: If you can use cooldowns to prevent/mitigate a large incoming attack, the less likely you are going to die. The more cooldowns you can use, the better your chances of surviving. Warriors have some of everything including their buffed shield block. DK's have short cooldown but potent abilities, which edges them out against warriors. Druids have a couple tricks. Paladins have one talent, with one glyphed not as good cooldown (Hand of Salvation).




AOE Tanking: Sometime or another you will need to tank more than one angry at a time. This may be 2, or may be 20. The less GCD's you need to use to keep them under control, and not get eaten by them, the better. Paladins shine in this category as we take less damage from many angrys beating on us while maintaining threat. DKs have very good/best AoE threat, but take more damage due to being avoidance tanks with not as much armor. Druids have swipe spam, and can take less damage with higher armor. Warriors have a lot more going for them in terms of AoE tanking than they used to including Damage Shield, Shockwave(Long CD), TClap, as well as Deep Wounds on crits (Thanks Warriors for the info)




Threat: The tank needs to be the most threatening person in the raid to an angry. If you cannot keep more threat than the DPS, they will be taking hits instead of you. Paladins have the highest threat due to our threat abilities being magical in nature and not mitigated with boss armor. DKs have some magic damage, Druid/Warriors bleed which is reduced by armor.




Moblility: A tank needs to be able to intercept incoming new angrys as well as get away from bosses when they become too dangerous to tank. The ranking is very tough as each class excells in a various movement type. Warriors take this one as they can charge angrys and friendly players. Druids have have the ability to close the gap quickly with enemies, but have to go kitty dash to get away from a boss quickly; this leaves them vulnerable. Paladins and DKs have passive run speed talents; DKs can also bring angrys to them instead of intercepting them.




Raid Assistance/Buffs: Some tanks bring raid buffs and can cast spells to assist your raid in completing your tasks better. Paladins edge out warriors as we have Hands of XYZ, Divine Sacrifice, and BoSanc. Warriors can Intervene, Sunder Armor, Vigilance, and have a few more tricks to help out the raid (Shouts etc). Druids have a buff (MotW, Leader of the Pack), and DKs do very little to provide additional raid support.

Hopefully those categories are sufficient to rate how well your tank performs. I will be updating this table as I research more about the abilities of other classes.

*edited to add more information with more of my assumptions

loquatious
05-15-2009, 01:16 PM
I dont really understand what you are basing your numbers on - just sort of a SWAG?

For example Mitigation warrior 3 DK 1 - death knights have more armor than warriors, near parity and once routine cooldown rotation is included as good or superior to Warriors.

Death knights rank under warriors for Cooldowns? Hell no :)

I would quibble about most of your rankings honestly and if the details are wrong then the result will be misleading

hbombs
05-15-2009, 01:18 PM
looks like paladins win damnit!

edit: as I suspected the OP is a pally :)

Dubzil
05-15-2009, 01:19 PM
^-- yeh, when did warriors get 4 cooldowns? DK cooldowns have been better than warriors since they came out. Shield wall, Last stand, ???, ??? shield block i wouldn't really consider a cooldown, more of an ability, with a 4piece T8 it is a mini shield wall to magic, but before you have that its hardly considered a cooldown.

phaze
05-15-2009, 01:25 PM
^-- yeh, when did warriors get 4 cooldowns? DK cooldowns have been better than warriors since they came out. Shield wall, Last stand, ???, ??? shield block i wouldn't really consider a cooldown, more of an ability, with a 4piece T8 it is a mini shield wall to magic, but before you have that its hardly considered a cooldown.

It's a ranking, not a count. The OP feels that Warriors come out on top for tanking cooldowns.

To the OP: taking a simplistic view of each class and their abilities isn't very useful information for direct comparison between each stat. You can't 'average' them together that way.

Dubzil
05-15-2009, 01:26 PM
It's a ranking, not a count. The OP feels that Warriors come out on top for tanking cooldowns.

To the OP: taking a simplistic view of each class and their abilities isn't very useful information for direct comparison between each stat. You can't 'average' them together that way.


ooh, okay then, that graph is just a lil confusing as well as a little rediculous. Avoidance pally vs warrior.. they have the exact same thing from tallents, and can wear the same gear, they are even for avoidance.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Yea sorry, the 1,2,3,4 is just a relative ranking of the four classes. 4 is the best, 1 is the worst.

Warriors iirc have Shield Wall, Last Stand, Frenzied Regen?

I suppose DK cooldowns are more potent than Warriors....

hbombs
05-15-2009, 01:43 PM
Our enraged regeneration is just about always used with last stand at the same time. Since its based off max health it will tick for a while lot more when used after last stand is popped.

grido
05-15-2009, 01:47 PM
Needs More Salt: Tanks Side by Side (http://randthotgen.blogspot.com/2009/05/tanks-side-by-side.html)



AOE Tanking: Sometime or another you will need to tank more than one angry at a time. This may be 2, or may be 20. The less GCD's you need to use to keep them under control, and not get eaten by them, the better. Paladins shine in this catagory as we take less damage from many angrys beating on us. DKs have very good AoE threat, but take more damage due to being avoidance tanks. Druids have swipe spam, and can take less damage. Warriors dont really have anything outside TClap and cleave.



Warriors also have shockwave and damage shield, which helps for AOE tanking also if any of them crit they can bleed if you are speced into deep wounds. Which I thought would at least put us above the druid on AOE tanking?

Theotherone
05-15-2009, 01:48 PM
What's the underlying data to support the rankings? How was it developed? Where was it obtained? What variables were taken into account e.g. use of cooldowns, the spec, was the gear the same, were the trinkets equal; are we talking magic or melee damage? Etc. At its heart WoW is based on numbers and the numbers tell the story, without the underlying data it's hard for the math geeks (no offense) to review your work and let the rest of the community decide its value.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 01:49 PM
Warriors also have shockwave and damage shield, which helps for AOE tanking also if any of them crit they can bleed if you are speced into deep wounds. Which I thought would at least put us above the druid on AOE tanking?

Yea, but Shockwave is on such a long cooldown, and Shield block isn't spammable. Druids just have to spam swipe for the most part.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 01:53 PM
What's the underlying data to support the rankings? How was it developed? Where was it obtained? What variables were taken into account e.g. use of cooldowns, the spec, was the gear the same, were the trinkets equal; are we talking magic or melee damage? Etc. At its heart WoW is based on numbers and the numbers tell the story, without the underlying data it's hard for the math geeks (no offense) to review your work and let the rest of the community decide its value.

These numbers are not absolute, but just relative the other tanking classes. For the most part I am using tanking Ulduar bosses as my reference. There are way too many variables with spec/damage type/gear to craft a model that uses hard math, although I am a fan.

For the most part, I am just trying to weigh the strengths and weakness of each class relative to each other. If you see an error or a problem, I would love to discuss it.

CKaz
05-15-2009, 02:09 PM
Yea, but Shockwave is on such a long cooldown, and Shield block isn't spammable. Druids just have to spam swipe for the most part.

Salt no offense, but this is something that you should probably step away from, short of a EJ-like math-intensive 4tankplaying intervention.
Grido said damage shield, which is something you talent, not activate.

Damage Shield - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=58874)

And as Grido mention most of us have, including myself

Deep Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12867)

Noting that Damage Shield, Shockwave, and Thunder Clap can all Crit and produce Deep Wounds.

However more to the point this breakdown/setup/assignment/averaging is just... bad.

Muffin Man
05-15-2009, 02:18 PM
As mentioned, damage shield is passive, whether or not shield block is up. I'm pretty sure Warrior AoE is better than druid AoE even after the swipe changes.

I'm also pretty sure that DK AoE is better than Pally AoE since DnD is basically equivalent to Consecration and after that DK's have other unlimited target aoe abilities while Pally AoE abilities after that have a target cap (Hammer, Avenger Shield, Holy Shield).

As far as cooldowns, DK's are the best hands down. Warrior and Druid cd's are similar, they have a health increase, and damage decrease and a life regen. With an edge to Warriors (I know Druids scoff at barkskin while Warriors swear by Shield Wall), especially if you count shield block (although no Warrior does).

From the numbers I've seen DK's mitigate more damage than warriors (I'm talking wws parses of Dmg In). Warriors get a 10% d-stance reduction, but DK armor via frost presence was designed to equalize that difference. Then Blade Barrior got changed to give them 5% damage reduction and afaik their frost presence bonus was unchanged (well the magic damage part got nerfed?).

As far as raid buffing, you left out Warrior shouts and pallies bopping people (yes, I've seen tanks do it). But I'd still put Pally, Warrior at #1 and #2 with the following huge caveat.

Druids seem split on whether or not BRez is something they can safety do during a fight or not. Ulduar fights are quite friendly to bear tanks brezzing people though, basically all of them except FL have gaps where you can brez (Ignis, Freya, Auriaya only for the OT though). So depending on how you count brez, Druids probably should pass Warriors for raid buffage.

DK's basically replace 1/2 an Enh Shaman... at best.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 02:27 PM
Stuff

Thanks, I thought only your offensive ablilities could cause Deep Wounds. Tclap sounds a little weird inflicting a bleed but w.e

I know this method looks like crap, but I am just trying to rank tanks according to what they do well and what they don't just for my own sanity as a quasi raid leader e.g. what classes work best for tanking certain situations.

Kininye
05-15-2009, 02:38 PM
Do runs with the tank.
Make a judgement call.
BOOM! They're ranked.


Yes, some of them have some advantages in some areas and disadvantages, but they're mostly minimal.

Being good as a tank is defined by mentality, not mechanics.

Reichsadler
05-15-2009, 02:53 PM
These numbers are not absolute, but just relative the other tanking classes. For the most part I am using tanking Ulduar bosses as my reference. There are way too many variables with spec/damage type/gear to craft a model that uses hard math, although I am a fan.

For the most part, I am just trying to weigh the strengths and weakness of each class relative to each other. If you see an error or a problem, I would love to discuss it.


Hey Salty,

As you have it currently laid out I think it could be considered somewhat conjecture. I think it would help with your comparison if you where to include how you derived the rankings for each category. Since you state that you may have limited understanding of the other classes, if you list how you are coming to your conclusions, other people with a better understanding of other classes or different experience could weigh-in to offer additional data that you might not have considered when you arrived at your findings.

Bluepepper
05-15-2009, 02:58 PM
I think that the ranking chart is a great idea, but the ranks have to be backed up by some empirical evidence. Also, just a suggestion, what about adding mobility (i.e., ease of engagement, Deathgrip, charge, intercept, etc.)? I agree with Kininye on the fact that although the ranking system is great in helping tanks identify some strengths and weaknesses the single biggest factor in determining a tank's actual ranking versus theoretical ranking is their skill level. Skill Level can't negate the weaknesses, but can help offset them.

I'd really like to see this developed further, it's a start and it looks promising.

Wapner
05-15-2009, 03:10 PM
This honestly appears to be nothing but a highly opinionated comparison post trying to prove that one tanking class is the "worst" and another is the "best" (aren't these against the forum rules?). If you backed it up with some information about how you obtained these numbers, and maybe your personal experience on each tanking class, people might take this information with a little more than a grain of salt.

Stengel
05-15-2009, 03:15 PM
I agree that this needs more math and information to be convincing.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 03:25 PM
I think that the ranking chart is a great idea, but the ranks have to be backed up by some empirical evidence. Also, just a suggestion, what about adding mobility (i.e., ease of engagement, Deathgrip, charge, intercept, etc.)? I agree with Kininye on the fact that although the ranking system is great in helping tanks identify some strengths and weaknesses the single biggest factor in determining a tank's actual ranking versus theoretical ranking is their skill level. Skill Level can't negate the weaknesses, but can help offset them.

I'd really like to see this developed further, it's a start and it looks promising.

Mobility sounds like a very good category. I think I will add it.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am not trying to say tank A > tank B, but I think it is good for everyone to know that all classes have strengths and weaknesses. I will add more dialogue to all the catagories as I have more time to spend. This is a first pass, and I know I skimmed in terms of what my assumptions are and the level of detail provided.

Dubzil
05-15-2009, 03:28 PM
it'll be interesting seeing where this goes, without making it a A>B tank thread, all you can really do is throw up each classes talent tree and ability lists, and put little descriptions next to them

Blueduck3285
05-15-2009, 04:12 PM
What exactly is your intention with making this comparison? Is it what others have stated, a way to easlier identify at a glance strengths of a class, for new tanks?

To be perfectly honist, because of the difference in mechanics between some of the classes, their scaling, and overall use of resourse, shouldnt be compared to one another. Everyone keeps saying "all things being =, why does x have a but y has b?". I play a DK, I have tanked as a warrior. I like the style and mechanics used by the DK better, but wouldnt say that a DK is better, or worse. They both do a job, just differently. I dont mind seeing a listing of strengths and weaknesses as stated by others, where is this information coming from? Whats its purpose? How did you come to your conclusion?

Just some thoughts.

Bluepepper
05-15-2009, 04:12 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=154&pictureid=393

Changes
I've made some alterations to you're table. I've left the rankings out until there's some facts and numbers provided. I've added another factor in ranking (Mobility/Ease of engagement).

The colors in the table are to represent what a player has control over (green) and what a player doesn't have control over (red).

Questions
Are there any other factors that should be placed in the table?

Any recommended changes?

Can someone provide some Theory along with actual numbers in order for us to fill out this table?

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 04:25 PM
What exactly is your intention with making this comparison? Is it what others have stated, a way to easlier identify at a glance strengths of a class, for new tanks?

To be perfectly honist, because of the difference in mechanics between some of the classes, their scaling, and overall use of resourse, shouldnt be compared to one another. Everyone keeps saying "all things being =, why does x have a but y has b?". I play a DK, I have tanked as a warrior. I like the style and mechanics used by the DK better, but wouldnt say that a DK is better, or worse. They both do a job, just differently. I dont mind seeing a listing of strengths and weaknesses as stated by others, where is this information coming from? Whats its purpose? How did you come to your conclusion?

Just some thoughts.

I agree, every tank has the basic tools to tank anything in the game, however I think some tanks shine more than other depending on the encounter.

I would rather have a warrior tanking Mimiron, as they have cooldowns to deal with the Plasma Bursts and can charge back in faster after a Shock Blast in order to keep the target stationary. I would rather have a Paladin tanking Vezax due to steady damage output, higher threat, healing bonus to stretch the healer's mana futher, as well as 15% runspeed for kiting him around.

True not every guild has four equally geared and skilled tanks around for raids, but they sometimes have these options when they want to make some encounters less painful.

no.fear3224
05-15-2009, 04:58 PM
So I made an account just to reply to this topic. I have tanked as both a Death Knight and a Druid so I do have a bit of experience to back me up. I would just like to ask why the Druid isn't considered a mobility tank as the warrior is? I swear it's just as easy for me to run to a few mob and Swipe him as it is for a Warrior to run to the same mob and Thunder Clap away. I could even Swipe spam any other mobs that are trailing behind me (like the Chow in Naxx).

Bring the player, not the Class

Blueduck3285
05-15-2009, 05:24 PM
Theres the problem, "Bring the player, not the Class" is what is ultimetaly being argued. One class may have an "easier" time with something because of their mechanics but that doesnt mean it cant be tanked by another class. Arguing whats easier and what simply just cant be done are two very different things.

Many people base their reasoning on "easier" rather than "doable". Warriors CAN tank 3D but DK's may have an "easier" time. Its all well and good to talk about some differences with cooldowns and such, but in the end its all subjective. DK's are more point of fact than anything. With 3 different specs comes 3 different flavors, not just in playstyle but cooldowns and mechanics as well. To just simply blanket all DK's under the same catagory is like comparing an apple to an orange. As Blood, I have different cooldowns that act in different ways compared to Frost and Unholy. The catagories themselfs are subjective, DK's unlike Pallies can place their DnD just about anywhere, for Grob, as I walk backwards, I have my camera zoomed out so that I can place a DnD behind me for him to walk through. That is mobility is it not? Pallies have a harder time with that encounter but it is doable, especially with the creep methed where little to no boss moving occurs.

Again I am just asking where this is all heading...

Jock
05-15-2009, 05:30 PM
Questions
Are there any other factors that should be placed in the table?

Any recommended changes?

Can someone provide some Theory along with actual numbers in order for us to fill out this table?

1) total hp is a stat that only matters for magic fights. EH is a better stat to compare

2) ranking on a 1-4 (best to worst) doesn't work. Example: Dks/druids have 50+k raid buffed hp when warriors have 40-44k at the same gear level. The difference between a dk and druid may be 1-2k hp whereas the difference between either and a warrior is closer than 6-10k. Ranking on a scale of 10 or 100 or something would be much more effective.

3) strike out all opinions. Find some math/wws reports people have done. There are tons out there.

4) ranking hp (even if you made it EH) and armor or cooldowns as equal categories doesn't work either. I was actually thinking about this earlier this morning, but 9 times outta 10 I'd take high the best cooldowns (look at the warlock pets pre 3.1 that had 100k hp).

5) Taking all 4 classes and going side by side by side by side is going to be very complicated math. Taking pairs of classes and going side by side is going to be much easier and if you develop a good system for that, you should be able to apply it to each of the pairs (6 pairs) of tanks to find out what works and what doesn't.

6) I'd use the following stats if I were going to do a comparison:

Effective health, avoidance, mitigation (armor + sbv/sbr), cooldowns (anything longer than 10 seconds include standard uptime-not all classes use their cds every time it's up like dks), threat, damage, aoe threat, scalability (see below).

To get a really good comparison, you would also have to use all three specs for dks. In addition, 2-3 sets of ilvl gear to account for scalability.

Jock
05-15-2009, 05:33 PM
Many people base their reasoning on "easier" rather than "doable". Warriors CAN tank 3D but DK's may have an "easier" time.

Figures you're a dk. To answer your question of where this is going.... dks can tank every fight and require less gear to do a better job at it than warriors do. The "separate but equal" philosophy that Blizzard has put out isn't working as intended no matter how much they back it. Warriors and to a smaller extent paladins and druids require more gear/skill to do what dk tanks can do. There is no way in the world that you can argue this mathematically with me as there are hundreds of posts out there proving me right. It's a problem the whole community sees and some people (the OP of this thread) are trying to prove (not that he does a good job of it).

Blueduck3285
05-15-2009, 06:02 PM
If you read the rest of my post, I didnt defend Blizz's "Separate but equal" but your to say DK's can do it with lesser gear isnt quite true. By lesser do you mean blues? The blues most NEW tanks pick up? The same set Warriors and Pallies can run with? If I walked into Naxx with that gear I would get crushed. And just for the recored, I have tanked as both DK AND Warrior. So dont bring up the whole "DK's are ignorent of other tanks blight because DK's are OP". Im getting tired of this and am trying to help out my Warrior, Pally, and Druid counter parts with Issues that they have come accross. Its not like Im sittin here saying "OMG why cant you do it... I can /sign DK". Im just simply trying to understand how comparing something as different as Night and Day helps in our quest to better persue a enlightend community of FELLOW tanks. As stated above, some people have pointed out the differences in DK's specs, even Warriors have vering specs for survivability, treat, and so on. Blank bundling of just Overall class mechanics doesnt show whats actually going on. Cider plays a warrior. I dont see him having great dificulties. You can say that some of these "short comings" can be lessend or even sidesteped by skill and knowhow. I dont discount the fact that there are some issues that need to be address, with my class included. I think there are some things that DK's have that we could use a "decrease" to bring us more inline with the other tanking classes.

I just get miffed when people try and compare apples to oranges. We all do the same thing, just in different ways, and "Ranking" best to worst only fulls "DK's are OP" or "Pallies are weaksause".


Figures you're a dk.

And statements like that just really piss me off. You dont know my past history of class playing. I have been playing since beta. Ranged dps, Warrior tank and DK are all part of my toon resume. Next time, leave that at the door if you dont mind.

Saltycracker
05-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Stuff

Effective health is a good measure of a tanks ability to take hits yes, but as far as I can tell, every tank has about the same effective health if they are all geared with similar iLvl stuff. A warrior and a druid can have about the same effective health, but a warrior will have a much harder time tanking Sarth breaths because he lacks the HP and the cooldowns to do so consistently. The classes are designed with an HP parity to compensate for other shortcomings (Druids with no parry/block, DKs with no block/lower armor)

Ranking on a 1-4 scale takes out a lot of the nuances of a 1-100 scale. There is much less point inflation, and it forces a clear 1, 2, 3, 4 candidate. These rankings might be subjective to your point of view, but I don't see any weighting system existing that doesn't have some form of personal opinion built into it. Even mathematical models are based on assumptions of the modeler.

Right now I am defining the scope of this question. I want to find evidence, WWS, math proofs as needed but right now I need to refine my question. I appologize if any of this looks like opinion or just plain wrong. If it is, let me know and I will try to find evidence behind my claims.

Please, take the Bliz likes my class best bickering into another thread. I am trying to have a real discussion among tanks to probe where our strengths and weaknesses lie. We all put a lot of time into our characters and we want to be able to be the best for every encounter. Even the best tanks know their limitations.

Pluekiller
05-16-2009, 06:21 AM
I would just like to ask why the Druid isn't considered a mobility tank as the warrior is? I swear it's just as easy for me to run to a few mob and Swipe him as it is for a Warrior to run to the same mob and Thunder Clap away. I could even Swipe spam any other mobs that are trailing behind me (like the Chow in Naxx).

Warbringer. Warriors can Charge, Intervene and Intercept in defensive stance.

Stengel
05-16-2009, 06:41 AM
I would compare the tanks using their most common tanking spec, wearing BiS Ulduar gear with full enchants/gems/raid buffs.

Instead of a scale it would be best to simply write the resulting number.

Areas that should be looked at are

- Effective hp against physical attacks, not including block
- Effective hp against magical attacks
- total avoidance
- Blocking against a fast (1 sec) and a slow (2.5 sec) attacker.

Threat and dps statistics should ideally be derived from sample wws since those can be quite different in reality than on paper.

A "cooldowns at a glance" list should be included, as well as a "raid buffs&debuffs at a glance".

Mobility also deserves some mention since I find it to be quite important as warrior in some situations.

I think this leaves multi mob tanking which could be quantified for each ability, say "Consecration: x threat and y damage per second on unlimited amount of targets within z yards."

Yes this is a lot of work for a single person... perhaps split the workload and ask volunteers to take up one part of it?

MouseDK
05-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Needs more evidence.

Hythloday
05-18-2009, 04:56 AM
Correctly specced, paladins have 3 cooldowns, Divine Protection, HoSalv, and Imp LoH. The last one will tend to mitigate 25-30% physical damage for 15 seconds.

Esch
05-18-2009, 08:55 AM
Figures you're a dk. To answer your question of where this is going.... dks can tank every fight and require less gear to do a better job at it than warriors do. The "separate but equal" philosophy that Blizzard has put out isn't working as intended no matter how much they back it.

Before I look at your armory, I suggest you look into fights. I can name a few off that top of my head where warriors are superiour to any other tanking class. Playing to the strengths of specific tanks is far better than assuming a DK is the defacto tank to toss at a boss. The catch is, sometimes X class is better on adds, trash or something other than the boss, but may be 'perfect' for the next boss you encounter. I'm currently fighting the defacto belief everyone other than a warrior is on OT, even though some fights would be considerably easier with that warrior elsewhere. Trade ups have proven that, though it's overlooked after the fact.


@OP - I skimmed the thread, but I did not you mention DKs bring no utility. I would have you look at Abominations Might, Improve Icy Talons and Ebon Plaguebringer. I specifically included AM when we lack enhancement shaman, and regularly employ EP as very effective debuff.

sicness
05-18-2009, 09:42 AM
Before I look at your armory, I suggest you look into fights. I can name a few off that top of my head where warriors are superiour to any other tanking class. Playing to the strengths of specific tanks is far better than assuming a DK is the defacto tank to toss at a boss. The catch is, sometimes X class is better on adds, trash or something other than the boss, but may be 'perfect' for the next boss you encounter. I'm currently fighting the defacto belief everyone other than a warrior is on OT, even though some fights would be considerably easier with that warrior elsewhere. Trade ups have proven that, though it's overlooked after the fact.


@OP - I skimmed the thread, but I did not you mention DKs bring no utility. I would have you look at Abominations Might, Improve Icy Talons and Ebon Plaguebringer. I specifically included AM when we lack enhancement shaman, and regularly employ EP as very effective debuff.

Go ahead and name those fights where a warrior is so much better. Off the top of my head the only two I can think of are Auriaya due to breaking fear and off tanking Brundir because of interrupts and stuns. All other fights all other tanks are generally equal when it comes to main tanking. And even if you look at them it's not such a significant advantage that other tanks are so outdone by warriors that you'll take a warrior over any other tank. Just as the poster you quoted took things out of proportion saying that warriors are inferior you did as well saying that warriors have such advantages. Blizz has actually done a great job when it comes to the MT role making it so you can decide on the person playing rather than their class.

Satorri
05-18-2009, 12:23 PM
I appreciate the sentiment but not the method.

I think it is worthwhile to discuss and educate the community about the capabilities and skill sets of each tank class/spec. That said your method is cursory, subjective, and very much reductionist.

So, rather than starting with what you think each tank is good at while admitting you don't know more than half the options well at all, why don't we compile how each class works and what tools they have?

There are 6 tank class/specs, mind you, suitable for heavy end-game tanking:
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin
Bear-oriented Feral Druid
Blood Death Knight
Frost Death Knight
Unholy Death Knight

I make a point to separate the DK specs because each one operates very differently, has it's own strengths and weakness, and even it's own tanking tools and CDs.

==================================================
If you want to compare important tanking factors there are many items and some of the class specs work in particularly unique ways. Here's a very brief summary in terms of survival:

Warriors = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/parry/block. Warriors get 10% dmg reduction just from being in defensive stance. They can get 10% more armor from gear, 5% dodge, 5% parry, and 5% block directly from talents, along with +30% block value. They have a 30% chance to crit-block for double their normal block value. They get +6% to Strength, +6% to Stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. Against magic they get 6% spell dmg reduction and can get improved Spell Deflection (normal version can reflect a single spell cast on 10 sec CD, improved it can reflect from the four closest party members and reduces your chance to be hit with spells by 4%). Warriors get a few different CDs.
Shield Block = 100% block chance for 10 sec, with double the base block value, on a 1 min CD, talentable down to 40 sec CD.
Shield Wall = 60% less damage taken for 12 sec on 5 min CD. Talents can reduce this to 4 min CD (glyph commonly used can reduce the CD by 2 min more but reduces it to 40% dmg reduction).
Last Stand = talented this increases the warrior's health by 30% for 20 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed it is only a 2 min CD.

Additional special skills, warriors can intervene a target which will reduce their threat by 10% and take the next melee/ranged attack instead of the target on a 30 sec CD. Warrior's method of applying the de-hasting melee debuff to targets is improved Tclap which hits unlimited targets in a 10 yrd range (*fact check please*). Warriors can provide AP reducing shout (as can Lock's curse, Hunter pet special, and Bears) and health increasing shout (as can Lock demon and dps warriors).

Paladins = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/block/parry. Paladins rely on Righteous Fury for threat buffing, which talented reduces all damage taken by 6%. They get 3% additional reduction in all damage taken by another talent, and when their health is below 35% health they take 30% less damage from everything on top of those. They get 6% less spell damage taken from a separate talent, this represents the only specific anti-magic ability. They get +15% strength, +14% stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. They also receive the standard 5% dodge and parry, +30% block value, and +10% armor from gear. From talents they have a 10% chance on being hit to increase their chance to block by 30% for 10 sec or 5 blocks, and can increase all healing effects on themselves by 5%. For CDs:
Holy Shield = +30% chance to block for 10 sec or 8 blocks on 8 sec CD.
Divine Protection = 50% all damage reduction for 12 sec, 3 min CD. With prot talents it is reduced to a 2 min CD.
Lay on Hands = gives a target (tank possibly) an amount of health equal to the pallies' max health (for the tank restores them to full health, can crit >.>) and a chunk of mana. 20 min CD can be talented down to 16 min which also makes it buff the targets armor by 25% for 15 sec, and can be glyphed to trim 5 more minutes off the CD to a minimum of 11 min CD fully buffed.

Pallies can Hand of Protection to make a target immune to physical damage for 10 seconds on a 5 min CD. They can Hand of Salvation to reduce friendlies' threat on a 2 min CD. They can also hand of Sacrifice to take 30% of the damage for the target until it's transferred the tank's full health. A prot tank's aura's increase healing effects on everyone affected by 6%, though this is exclusive with Resto druid's tree aura. Pallies can increase party/raid members' fire, frost, or shadow resists by 130, or armor by 1200 (1800 with prot talents), though these can be offered by any pally in the raid. Prot pallies can provide Blessing of Sanctuary which reduces all damage taken by 3%, though that buff can be provided to other tanks in the same raid with a prot pally and it does not stack with a warrior's vigilance or a Disc Priest's Renewed Hope. Judgement and Seal of Light can restore health to the tank, though this too can be provided by other pallies in the raid. Pally's melee de-hasting ability is applied with their judgment so it is functionally single target only.

Druid = Druids wear leather gear and get a big armor buff from being a bear (370%, talented it is 492% or 403% *fact check please*). Druids cannot parry or block, only dodge. In addition to the armor buff, bear form increases the druid's stamina by 25%. Talents give the bear +10% armor from gear, +10 Expertise, +10% dodge, +16% stamina, +6% Strength, +6% Agility, and 6% reduced chance to be crit. Bears get an ability called Savage Defense which is essentially a shield block type ability. When they crit they get a damage shield equal to 25% of their AP (functionally block chance = crit chance and block value = 25% of AP). This works out a bit different than block since it does not feature in the hit table, instead it is simply saved for the next hit (block is only possible if the strike isn't a miss/dodge/parry, but if you DO dodge, it doesn't store up that block that could've been for the next swing), bears do not have talents to buff this ability like warriors and pallies can buff their shield block ability. Bear CDs are as follows:
Barkskin = Bear's answer to the other class's protection abilities, this reduces all dmg taken by 20% for 12 sec, on a 1 min CD.
Frenzied Rejeneration = the bear converts up to 10 rage per second into health at a rate of 0.3% total health per point. Lasts 10 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this also increases all healing effects on the druid by 20%. Note, this ability consumes rage so it is at the expense of dmg threat.
Survival Instincts = +30% health for 20 seconds on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this becomes +45% health.

Bears have Leader of the Pack that will allow them to regen 4% of their max health every time they crit, but this is graned raid wide by any feral druid in the party/raid. Bears provide the AP reducing ability that warriors do. The bear de-hasting debuff is applied by maul and mangle, so it is on restricted numbers of targets. Since you can only hit 1-3 targets at a time and requires two hits to stack it and one to maintain after that, it is not easy to maintain it on pulls with many targets.

Death Knights (general) = DKs wear plate armor with no shield. They can dodge and parry, but not block. All DKs normally will take +15% armor from gear, +5% dodge, and 5% all dmg reduction that will be functionally up 95-100% of the time (requires both Blood runes on CD once every 10 sec). Specific additional details depend on tree. Frost Presence increases the DK's armor by 80% and health by 10%. DK's get 25% of their Strength as parry rating which buffs their parry chance by a noticeable amount (~4-7% depending on gear at 80). All DKs share 2 main survival CDs:
Icebound Fortitude = 20% dmg reduction buffed by defense (~35% at 540 def) for 12 sec on a 1 min CD.
Anti-magic Shell = reduces all magic damage by 75% for 5 sec or until it absorbs 50% of the DK's total health.

Death Knights' melee de-hasting ability is applied with Frost Fever which is easily maintained on all targets in range and lasts 15-21 sec per application depending on talents.

Blood = from the blood tree you can get +8% Strength, +6% Stamina, and +6 expertise. Also one talent will give the DK a chance equal to his parry chance to take 45% less damage from direct damage spells (as opposed to periodic spell dmg). Another reduces the damage of any hit that takes the tank below 35% health by 15% on a 15 sec hidden CD (only procs on hits larger than 5% of total health). Otherwise Blood relies heavily on self-healing to offset damage. 3 CDs, 0-2 passive effects, and one common ability are used for this. The CDs are:
Vampiric Blood = increases the DK's total health by 15% and increases all healing effects on him by 35% for 20 sec (30 sec with glyph). 2 min CD.
Mark of Blood = for 20 seconds or 20 hits, the enemy target affected heals who they damage for 4% of their total health. This heal triggers immediately after the damage like Earth Shield and Prayer of Mending so it won't overheal unless the hit is smaller than 4% and can be used to support other tanks and raid healing.
Rune Tap = restores 10% of the tanks total health on a 1 min CD. Talented this becomes 13/16/20% of total health on a 50/40/30 sec CD (glyphed 22% on the tank and 10% to everyone else in the party).
DK's have Death Strike which restores 5% of their health per disease on the target which will heal for 50% more (next patch) for a Blood DK. Two less common talents allow the DK to regenerate 4% of his damage done as health while tanking, and another can proc Blood Worms to heal the tank for small amounts as they do damage.

Frost = from the Frost tree you can get +3% miss, +2% all dmg reduction, and 5 expertise. A special talent allows you a 30% chance when taking magic damage to get 50 resistance to that school of magic for 18 seconds, and that can stack up to 3 times and multiple types can be applied at the same time on individual timers (i.e. fire, frost, nature, arcane, etc). Frost buffs the duration of Icebound Fortitude up to 18 seconds, and has one CD only that it adds to the mix:
Unbreakable Armor = all damage taken is reduced by a value equal to 5% of the DK's armor (~1k-1.6k depending on gear, glyph increases that value by 20%) for 20 sec on a 2 min CD.
Frost DK's have access to Death Strike though it receives no buffing from Frost and is not the preferred threat tool for the cost.

Unholy = from the Unholy tree, you can get 6% magic damage reduction, buffs AMS to reduce magic damage by 100%, and adds 2 CDs to improve survival:
Anti-Magic Zone = this zone absorbs 75% of magic damage taken by all inside for 10 seconds up to a maximum buffed by AP (14-20k total dmg but will reduce the full 75% on every target from a single burst even if it surpasses the total allowance).
Bone Shield = this applies 4 charges (6 glyphed). So long as at least one charge remains the DK takes 20% less damage from everything. Each time the DK takes damage a charge is consumed, though charges have a hidden CD (~2 sec). Shield lasts 5 min otherwise and has a 2 min CD.
==================================================

Let's look at some passive buffed highlights:
Warriors = +6% Str, +6 Expertise, +6% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block, +30% block value. 10% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmge reduction. 30% chance for double value block.

Pallies = +15% Str, +6 Expertise, +14% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +30% block value. 9% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmg reduction, 10% chance per hit to get +30% block chance for 10 sec. +5% heals on self.

Bears = -6% chance to be crit, +6% Str, +6% Agi, +10 Expertise, +25/16% Stam (*fact check* additive or multiplicative, 41% or 45% respectively), +10% armor from gear, +402% (492%?) armor from gear, +10% dodge. Crits create a damage shield equal to 25% of the bear's AP to act as a physical damage shield.

Blood DKs = +6% Str, +6 Exp, +6% Stam, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge, 25% of Str as Parry rating. 5% all damage reduction with an additional maintained 5% all damage reduction. Chance equal to parry chance to reduce direct spell damage by 45%. Hits that take you below 35% are reduced by 15% on a 15 sec CD. Self-heals can be substantial and 'passive'.

Frost DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +3% miss, +5% dodge. 7% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained. 30% chance on spell dmg taken to stack 50 resistance to that school for 18 sec, can stack up to 3 times.

Unholy DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge. 5% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained, 6% magic reduction.


Beyond the passives, all the class/specs get a big dmg reducer:
Warriors = 60% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 5 min CD (talented -1 min to CD, glyphed becomes 40% dmg reduction and -2 min to CD)
Pallies = 50% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 2 min CD.
Blood/Unholy DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD.
Frost DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 18 sec, 1 min CD.
Bear = 20% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD (glyph affects pvp only reducing chance to be crit further while it's up)

Warriors and Pallies get very short CD abilities that buff their survival well:
Warriors get guaranteed big blocks for 10 sec every 40, 25% uptime used on CD.
Pallies get much 30% higher block chance and blocks do reflective damage, 100% uptime on a single target, more targets reduce the uptime.

Bears, Warriors, and Blood DKs get a big activatable health buff. Bears' is +30(45)% for 20 sec every 3 min. Warriors' is 30% for 20 sec every 3(2) min. Blood DKs' is +15% health for 20(30) sec every 2 min and comes with a +35% all healing buff.

================================================== =
Now, using 8.5 tanking gear sets (only gear not trinkets, rings, necks, or weapons) to get an idea about how passive multipliers break down for mitigation and health:

Bears
Armor = 2400 * 1.10 * 4.92 = 12989 (+482 agi = 964 armor)
Stam = 530 * 1.16 * 1.25 = 769 = 7505 health
*7 non-meta sockets (3/2/2 RYB)

Warriors
Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
Stam = 671 * 1.06 = 711 = 6934 health
*7 non-meta sockets (0/3/4)

Paladins
Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
Stam = 671 * 1.14 = 765 = 7469 health
*7 non-meta sockets (4/2/1)

Death Knights
Armor = 9538 * 1.15 * 1.80 = 19744 (note: DKs cannot get shields)
Blood Stam = 697 * 1.06 = 739 = 7208 health *1.10 = 7929 health
Frost/Unholy Stam = 697 = 6790 health *1.10 = 7469 health
*7 non-meta sockets (2/1/4)

Armor Discussion
Shields at this level are just shy of 8k armor, so bears actually end up lowest for armor from gear even though they will have much more agility and therefore armor than the plate wearers will, and will likely be able to get more armor buffing on itemization since they don't need defense and they get a lot of value from Agi which will be distinctly better buffed for them in raids. DK's bonuses put them slightly ahead of the others in total armor value thanks to the multipliers, though they do not have a block-type mitigation effect like the other 3 tank classes.

Health Discussion
Warriors get the least straight health from stamina, but they also rely on it the least in their survival mechanics. Pallies, Bears, and Frost/Unholy DKs have about the same from core pieces, but again, Bears will likely pick up more from additional pieces since their multipliers are significantly larger than the other classes. Pallies gravitate towards stamina because it works well with Ardent Defender and Touched by the Light (30% of Stam = Spellpower for a big threat buff), so they will likely pick up stamina items the same way, but they won't get quite as much mileage as bears will. Blood DKs get the most from core gear by a small margin, and will get ever so slightly higher value for stam stacking than Pallies, though Bears multipliers will still out-pace them by a decent margin. Blood DKs of all the class/specs arguably get the most out of stam stacking since they have 4 self-healing abilities they rely on to functionally mitigate damage that scale on total health, and Blood DK's are unique in the tanking kingdom for that reliance on self-heals. I haven't mentioned it previously, but DKs can also use Rune of Stoneskin Gargoyle which will increase their stam by another 2%.
==================================================

Avoidance is hard to put a finger on as it diminishes and there are a variety of different non-set pieces that vary in value greatly for what they buff. Let me see what I can pull from core gear values, as we can say that anyone could get the other non-set pieces regardless of class/spec (though again, different classes value stats differently). I'll include Block % on this list, though they aren't avoidance they're easier to track here. Also, still speaking passively not factoring CDs.

Bears
Def Rating = 0
Dodge Rating = 0
Agi = 455 (note: druid weapons will likely also have high Agi values)
*+10% dodge
*damage shield is based on crit and AP for frequency and intensity respectively

Warriors
Def Rating = 257
Dodge Rating = 217
Parry Rating = 60
Block Rating = 51 = 3.11%
Block Value = 166 + (443 Str / 2) = 388
*+5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block
*30% chance block value will double on block

Paladins
Def Rating = 268
Dodge Rating = 153
Parry Rating = 147
Block Rating = 80 = 4.88%
Block Value = 136 + (491 Str / 2) = 382
*+5% dodge, +5% parry
*10% chance on hit to +30% block

Death Knights
Def Rating = 294
Dodge Rating = 165
Parry Rating = 227 + (390 Str * 0.25) = 325
*all DKs = +5% dodge
*Frost +3% miss
*all DKs have access to personal runes that add avoidance/Def skill but don't effect the diminishing returns, this is +4% parry or +25 def skill (=1% miss, 1% dodge, 1% parry) with +2% stam.

Obviously the formulae are all rather messy and depend on what non-set pieces you are using so you know how diminishing returns break down. At a glimpse though we can tell that Warriors have about 30% more dodge on their core pieces, DK's will have 5 times the warrior's and over double the pally's parry rating, and the DK will have the most dodge/parry buffing from Def. DK's get the least % from talents but will get a nice buff from their rune (almost making up for that). Bears will rely very heavily on their Agility, though they match the Warriors and Pallies for raw avoidance from talents. In the wash, and based on conversations with tanks of other classes, I'd expect the avoidance values to go roughly in this order for similar gearing and gem/chant focus:
DK > Bear > Warrior/Paladin
Though I also expect the spread from highest to lowest to only be on the order of 4-8% at most.
==================================================

The last comparison I'll touch on today is cooldowns. Each class/spec has their own unique tools to use through adversity. Again we'll disregard trinkets since these could/should be universally attainable and different classes will like different trinkets for their own reasons.

Obviously, Bears have the least survival CDs, most of their CDs are threat focused. Barkskin is the smallest of the protection abilities, but it is on a fast timer like DKs. Survival Instincts gives them a significant health jump, and bears are already primed to have the largest health pools by a margin. Bears get the ability to regenerate a reasonably large amount of their health on a moderately long CD. Frenzied Regen is worth 3% max health, per second, for a total of 30% max health over 10 seconds in the best case. Glyphed this value alone increases to 36% plus it buffs other incoming heals. The 3 min CD leaves this as more of a once or twice per big epic boss fight. Bears are for all intents and purposes, designed to have a higher survival baseline before CDs.

Paladins also sport a pretty small number of CDs but they are very potent. Their protection skill, Divine Protection, is solid at 40% and a 2 min CD, and glyphed they can take a voluntary hit to their own threat to get another 20% damage reduction for 10 sec on a 2 min CD though this has it's own risks of course. Holy Shield as an always up ability is very powerful against one or two targets as it is functionally up 100%. Against very large pulls it won't last quite as long though it is not an extreme reduction. Like Shield Block for Warriors this value increases noticeably against faster swings with smaller individual hits. Lay on Hands is about as collosal a save as you can get, but it is the only remaining 'tank' ability on such a long CD. It's amazing the moment you need it, but it can't be used casually.

Warriors have versatile CDs that can suit a variety of needs. The Warrior protection CD, Shield Wall, is the biggest among the tanks, even though glyphed it matches Pallies, unglyphed it is a HUGE value but only usable half as often. Shield Block has a reasonably high coverage at 25% for ensuring that anything not avoided is blocked, making warriors pretty regularly capable of taking less physical damage particularly through fast swinging bosses or lots of small hits. Spell Reflection is a powerful ability in certain situations even if the target is immune to the effect being reflected.

DK's originally were the CD tanking class. Smart rotation of CDs for coverage was essential as they would otherwise take noticeably more damage than any other tank. Things have changed and times have shifted. DK's still have very useful CDs but they are far less essential. IBF rings in as the most pivotal core ability. Compared to the equivolant talents for Pallies and Warriors it is very powerful thanks to its 1 min CD, but you'll find looking over the values that this is to make up for the wealth of other survival tools that the other classes have, which is most notably the ability to block. Each tree has its own system of CDs that it relies on. Frost is by far the least CD dependent, though it sports a longer duration IBF and Unbreakable Armor it will take less damage without cooldowns. Unholy relies entirely on Bone Shield for the bulk of the mitigation work, and while it works well in good gear it requires a fair amount of attentiveness to get the full value. So long as it is up Unholy is remarkably durable, and it is fantastic against large count pulls and multiple damage sources that come simultaneously. Blood, as I mentioned, is unique among the tanks as it uses self-heals to off-set damage taken. Used to their fullest these heals can actually put the Blood tank at a higher effective mitigation level than the other two specs, but that hinges heavily on the degree of the damage being taken, the skill of the tank timing the heals well, and frequent use of the additional heals. Vampiric Blood may be the single most powerful CD available in 25-man raids, as a Blood tank with a significant health pool will be able to be healed through just about anything for 30 sec.
==================================================

Threat is a completely different matter, and I'll respond tomorrow with more on that, probably.

I don't think any of the classes stands noticeably above the others, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses that match well or poorly with the different challenges available. No tank is incapable of tanking some particular scenario, and no tank is TOO good at tanking something particular, Blizz has seen to that.

Forgive me my Wall o' Text. I crittededed. >.>

Honorshammer
05-18-2009, 12:35 PM
I'd add that Paladins have a Minor Glyph that takes 5 minutes off the Lay On Hands cooldown. So base cooldown is 20 minutes, 15 with the Glyph, and 11 minutes with points in our Holy tree.

Darksend
05-18-2009, 12:41 PM
@ satorri

I only read over the bear sections because that is what i know and there are a few inaccuracies

1) savage defense is only physical damage same as block

2) you omitted barkskin 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds 1 min CD

3) savage defense unlike block is not on the same table as avoidance. Thus if you have sd and you either get hit and absorb some of the attack or it misses and you absorb the next attack. unlike block which is either you avoid you block or you get hit.

Honorshammer
05-18-2009, 12:46 PM
Satorri, you should post this as a guide. It's very well done.

Cordovān
05-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Frost DKs = +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +3% miss, +5% dodge. 7% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained. 30% chance on spell dmg taken to stack 50 resistance to that school for 18 sec, can stack up to 3 times.



I think you missed the +5 Expertise from Tundra Stalker

BTW Very very good post :)

Mammoth
05-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Very informative post Satorri, thank you for the effort. Feral Druid's have an additional cooldown: Barkskin, 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown.

I believe the OP's intentions were benign but it's hard to compare tanks without people jumping to the conclusion that ulterior motives are at play. Not every discussion is a veiled attempt to prove "Tank Class A" sucks or "Tank Class B" is overpowered. Sometimes a simplified chart with subjective rankings in an assortment of tanking abilites and attributes is just a simplified chart with subjective rankings in an assortment of tanking abilites and attributes.

Bragoon
05-18-2009, 02:14 PM
Paladin threat 4? Really?
Our pally tanks pulls 10k-14k tps on any fight he MTs.
I don't so apparently i'm bad ><

Kazeyonoma
05-18-2009, 02:29 PM
Bragoon, the higher the number the better in the OP's rankings. hence the average # being higher.

So pallies are top in threat.

Bragoon
05-18-2009, 05:53 PM
See that would make so much more sense :P

Jock
05-18-2009, 06:30 PM
Ranking on a 1-4 scale takes out a lot of the nuances of a 1-100 scale. There is much less point inflation, and it forces a clear 1, 2, 3, 4 candidate. These rankings might be subjective to your point of view, but I don't see any weighting system existing that doesn't have some form of personal opinion built into it. Even mathematical models are based on assumptions of the modeler.


Throwing up a 1-4 doesn't negate the scale? Also if you are trying to make a good overall encompass of how good the classes are at certain things, you need to go indepth. Going halfway is essentially a waste of time.

The large wall-o-text on the bottom of the previous page was a very good start and much more productive of a response than either of the two who seemed to care more about me attacking their methods than answers.

P.S. to whoever got really pissy... welcome to forums. I'm not your best friend, I'm a critic.

Kazeyonoma
05-19-2009, 09:31 AM
But remember, this is tankspot, not the WoW forums, so keep your "critiques" civil, or you can "critique" your way from the site.

Satorri
05-19-2009, 09:34 AM
First things first, I was reading through my crit from yesterday (thanks for catching some of my slips, can't believe I forgot barkskin =O) and some clear themes came out. The rough classifications might be useful to people to see not some absolute value of tanks but rather identify their strengths, their niches:

Warriors, Frost DKs = the balanced tanks. You can focus on part of their abilities to suit particular needs, but you can just as easily buff a different survival method with the same effectiveness. They may not be the top of the heap in any single method, but that they ARE versatile makes them a real tanking asset. While they can be tailored to meet more specific needs, these tanks excel at mixed paces and scales of damage, and at taking a relentless fast swing timed beating.

Bears, Blood DKs = the massive meat shields. These tanks can get the best effect from REALLY trumping up the health pool and stacking health like it's a job. If the tank is going to take big hits infrequently, this is a good tank for it.

Unholy DKs = The avoidance tank. DK's have the potential to sport the highest avoidance of any tank class, and for Unholy Knights Bone Shield plays VERY well with avoidance. The supreme avoidance tank is ideal for fights like XT or Ignis where you will take big single swings and when one of those misses the fight becomes that much easier.

Protadins = these are a little tricky within my gross generalization above. They will stack health because it is a versatile stat buffing their threat as well, they have strong shield block abilities making them great for fast attacks like the balanced tanks, though they tend to do better when you play up one of those two aspects rather than avoidance. Paladins I'd also deem the 9 lives tanks. With Lay on Hands, Ardent Defender, bubbles, and the ability for high block coverage, they can be very hard to kill and can catch themselves from the brink of death very noticeably.

These are GROSS generalizations, and there are crossovers (Bears combine the high health pool with generous avoidance and a block ability that gets saved up to play nicely with said avoidance, for example, making them also fit into the first and third categories as well).



Now the thing I wanted to touch on, far more briefly than yesterday's tirade is threat!

Tanking Threat Styles

The reason I am very reluctant to talk about threat is because that is a game not dictated as much by being smart in your setup prior to a fight and a sideline activity during the fight (note: active tanks use CDs very deliberately to survive better than the folks who just stand there and get hit), but really threat has EVERYTHING to do with the player activity. A hard working tank will out threat anyone who is slow on their toes, regardless of class, spec, and often regardless of gear (barring extreme differences). The aspect on threat that matters is not that we beat each other in threat, but that we stay ahead of the dps, that is the critical measurement of threat generation.

What I do want to focus here is on the tools the tanks use, where their strengths lie (yes Warriors and Blood DKs can tank groups they just work a little harder for it than a Pally or Unholy DK), and what assignments they are best suited for on threat demands. In general there are 4 very general threat needs in a raid environment:

1.) The Big Boss = this is the giant boss who has 200 mil health and you will be fighting for the next 10 minutes (hyperbole aside you know who I'm talking about). This fight usually has more demands of its tank on survival and all that matters is that the tank can roll ahead of the dps on the long stretch, dps can start slowly or take pauses it won't be the end of the world.

2.) The Bruiser/Nuke-site = this is the nasty single monster, add, or boss phase, that needs to be killed quickly. The longer it is up the more strained the raid will become as this mob plies its ability. Against this target you need 'snap' threat, someone who can open up with a big burst and the moves to keep ahead of a fast burn for a short period.

3.) The Crack Squad = a small group of 3-5 mobs. Usually this squad will have a bruiser and/or caster or mobs of varying concern and ability. Here the tanks will have to know the priority and communicate the order to the dps. Here, for whatever reason, you need to focus at least one or two of the mobs down first to avoid their threat. This usually requires attentive threat on one or two targets first, with support threat on the additional targets. Here the tank needs to be able to spill over on additional targets while keeping leading threat on the active target (here's an example where a good tank makes a difference as they can be building 90% on the main target 50% on the second target and better than baseline threat on the others).

4.) The Swarm! = these pulls are filled with large amounts of small mobs. Here they're all equally a nuisance and any one or two wouldn't be an issue at all, but en masse they can tear through a not-tank. Here the needs are large target-count threat without specific needed focus. If one or two come loose, it's not the end of the world or an instant one-shot, and often the tank just needs to switch to these targets to pull them back in.

Strategies on these pulls can vary, and in raids you're rarely tanking alone, but these are good examples for illustrating the relative strengths of each class.

I want to compare just the tools of each class. Please bear in mind that player use of these abilities will make all the difference and will be the defining difference between success and failure. Any class/spec can tank any of the above situations but the ease of it can be roughly determined by class/spec.

Warriors
Warriors are about as versatile with threat tools as they are with survival tools. The general tools:
Shield Slam, Devastate = these are the single target hammers that the various mechanics will support as the central mainstay of your active rotation.
Revenge = this is the mechanic that has a positive feedback with survival and makes the threat difference between being the target and not. Dodge/parry/blocks let you get a hard hitting cheap hit.
Heroic Strike = this is functionally a buffing/dumping threat element. It does not interrupt your normal move set, but can be applied additionally to convert rage build up into threat. The more abuse the tank takes the more available this ability is.
Shockwave/Cleave/Tclap = The aoe tools. Shockwave allows both a conal threat for as many people as you can group effectively, with a stun that actually supports stable positioning and a bit of mini-cc for easing the pull. Cleave is the multiple target substitute for Heroic Strike where you can pay a bit more to get a slightly smaller hit on more than just the one target. Tclap, aside from being a key debuff, allows the warrior to get a bit of snap baseline on an unlimited target count in range. Because of the CDs on Shockwave and Tclap, these abilities aren't ideal for large pull tanking, but used well they most certainly do the job.
Damage Shields = not an active move, whenever the warrior takes a hit (read: not avoids), the attacker takes damage. This is a positive buff to any number of targets, but helps form strong foundation threat on off-targets and large groups so the warrior is covered as they do the target switching dance.

Warriors, played well, are phenomenal burst tanks. Compounded with Shield Block, trinkets, sharp gearing, and Sword and Board, Shield Slam can spike almost ridiculously to set up a HUGE immediate threat lead. The other tools have very powerful feedback mechanisms as a main tank, where avoidance will buff your threat with cheap big hits of Revenge (further supporting Shield Slam), and taking hits will fuel the warrior's rage allowing more liberal use of heroic strikes. Warriors are monsters on snap threat (class 2), strong on focusing while holding off targets (class 3) and carrying bosses indefinitely (class 1), and are weakest at large counts of small mobs (class 4) though with smart use of Tclap, damage shields, strategic Shockwaves, and tabbed cleaves those pulls are pretty easily accomplished. Warriors also sport an AoE unclassified taunt that can be a clincher in an unexpected pull or if large groups start to fragment.

Bears
Bears are a very interesting tank class in that they're designed to have gear itemization like dpsers. Obviously when focusing on Bear'ing you will load in survival values like health, armor, and avoidance, but the gear will come with distinct amounts of crit, haste, and AP which most other tanks won't get so directly. Currently, only bears get the benefit of Agility itemized on their tanking gear (*cry*) as well. Bear's use the following tools for their threat:
Maul = the equivalent of the Warrior's Heroic Strike, this does not interrupt the bear's other moves but can be layered on to burn extra rage into threat. Glyphed this will hit two targets which can be veyr nice for supporting multi-target tanking as bears have no cleave (bear with me, =D).
Mangle = while buffing your and your raid's bleeds, this ability adds a nice spot of damage as well. Used with Berserk this becomes a cleave for a short period allowing the bear to set up shot on multiple targets at once.
Lacerate = a stacking bleed with bonus threat (*fact check* still there?) on application. Originally somewhat akin to a warrior's devastate in spam in the holes, but now used rather less on non-single target needs.
Swipe = this is THE aoe ability. Now thankfully for bears this is omni-directional, albeit short ranged. Swipe allows the bear to anger everything around it, and as opposed to Tclap the semi-analogous ability from warriors it does not have a CD, so in sufficient rage situations it can be used pretty heavily.

Bears can setup really powerful rolling threat on one or two targets and they can do it fast enough that you can miss that it isn't big bursty threat, per se. Bears generally have to work the hardest for aoe threat as they don't have a lot of tools for it and if mobs are carelessly scattered by quick aoe dps, it can be harder for the bear to reliably setup long term threat until they're recollected. Bears, like warriors, do sport an unclassified unlimited target-count aoe taunt. Bears excel on single targets (class 1) and small group focused threat (class 3), they are strong with bruisers (class 2) though they don't burst the same as warriors so they take a second seat in terms of quick switch snap threat, and they are slightly weaker than warriors on large groups (class 4). Given the opportunity to collect the pull well, bears can cover the swarms just fine, but if dps are careless and rush the pulls it can be a full-time job for the bear to keep it under wraps.

Paladins
Paladin's threat tools nowadays are more significantly small group oriented, but they're relatively the same with groups of 1-3. The paladin primary tools are as follows:
Judgment = this is one small burst slipped into the mix of other abilities. Often the debuff it applies is what is more important, but it is a definite threat in application when it is used.
Shield of Righteousness = single target big smash that scales nicely with the paladin's block value. This allows the Protadin to support larger burst on a single target beyond the other multi-target abilities. This supports snap threat, though not quite to the scale of Shield Slam for warriors.
Hammer of the Righteous = this hits 3 targets, not unlike cleave, though it hits rather harder than a warriors cleave for a relatively cheaper cost. This ability makes it very easy to tank 3 targets, but with careful targeting it can also be used to support better than base aggro on 5 targets at a time.
Avenger's Shield = hits 3 targets at range, slowing their movement and silencing them. This is one of the more expensive abilities but it can be very powerful in setting up pulls or for buffing threat where mana/damage or plentiful.
Consecration = this sets an aoe at the protadin's feet that ticks continuously on anyone standing on it for it's duration. This sets a solid baseline and does not require active targeting to maintain.
Exorcism = while not specifically a 'tanking' ability this is a terribly valuable ranged threat tool which can set a substatial chunk of threat on a single target, and automatically crits on undead.
Seal of ____ = seals contribute a great deal to threat, or to utility with less threat. This ranges from the Martyr/Blood which is less ideal for tanking since it hurts the paladin but does strong damage, to Vengeance/Corruption which sets stacking dots on multiple targets and buffs judgement damage per stack (and applies on each target of HotR!), to Righteousness which is just solid and consistant threat buffing. Seal of Wisdom can be used to buff mana if needed, Seal of Life for a little extra healing, or Seal of Justice, infrequently in the need of keeping mobs from running (don't know that happens in raids ever any more). Seal choice is support threat, but it adds up.
Holy Wrath = only usable on undead and demons, but this is a big aoe burst and stun. It is important when you need it, though it is expensive. As this expansion has a significant undead theme, this cannot be forgotten or discounted.
Holy Shield = the original reflective damage shield. Holy Shield will be up a significant proportion of the time and every shield block will do reflective damage. As Protadins will block a large amount of what they don't avoid this is very valuable.

Protadins, relatively speaking, have a LOT of tools, but they are fairly un-nuanced. What I mean is, you have a list of big hits and you just have to focus on the ones that suit your needs in each moment, there is little required by way of setup to do bigger hits. Protadins, it must be noted, have a very important ability in Avenging Wrath when it is used. For the duration their damage (threat) will be markably increased, this is not a common tanking ability in terms of scale, though Bears do quite well with Berserk and King of the Jungle buffed Enrage. Using the controlled bursts Paladins excel at bruisers and nuke hits (class 2), they are very strong when played well against swarms (class 4) and bosses (class 1), and they tank focused fire within groups better than average (class 3). In terms of threat, relative to the Warriors and Bears, Paladins are much stronger in all situations, though there seem to be two vital aspects to better than average pally threat. First, with all of the many tools the tank who picks the optimal tools for the situation on each CD can do better than the one who spams whichever they see first. Second, Protadins are the one tank who relies on mana. While they have strong tools to keep it coming in, Spiritual Attunement, Judge of Wisdom, BoSanc, and now rolling Divine Pleas, but should mana run low from lack of attention or bad luck, it can severely dampen the Protadin's threat for a period. This can be vulnerable in situations where mana is drained, sapped, or blocked.

Death Knights (general)
At the core, the DK class has a great many tools that it shares whether it is dpsing or tanking, so in some respects threat plays out like dpsing, but that is not quite accurate. Death Knights, regardless of spec, do rely on their diseases for damage and effect buffing. This can be used differently by different specs though. At the core are the following threat tool elements:
Icy Touch / Frost Fever = IT is a ranged shot of frost damage that applies the essential Frost Fever for a dot and melee de-hasting. This will not be much threat for Blood/Unholy, but it is better with frost, and the disease will add up when maintained and allowed to tick continually on all targets.
Plague Strike / Blood Plague = a melee range, rough equivalent to IT, this strike doesn't do too much damage, but the disease it applies is another key factor that can be setup up and allowed to roll on all targets to buff foundation threat.
Rune Strike = this is the DK's answer to Revenge for Warriors. It triggers when the DK dodges or parries. It hits for a very large amount and has bonus threat to boot. This becomes a massive feature in every spec's threat as gear improves. Most DK's macro this ability into their other moves since, like Heroic Strike and Maul it fires 'on next swing.' It is worth noting it replaces the melee swing and cannot be dodged or parried.
Death and Decay = this is a fixed aoe zone that does damage per second with bonus threat, though it comes at a high price. Unlike the pally consecration it can be targetted and dropped at range. This is a valuable tool though it is most potent for Unholy, a valuable utility for Blood though easily used more sparingly, and is least required for Frost, though it can be used to good supportive effect.
Death Coil = this consumes runic power for a decent amount of damage and can be used at range. As moves go this is a bit low on damage and is best used when at range to add a little threat and in rune blackouts (GCDs where all 6 runes are on CD). It is rarely better than a move costing runes. Frost will rarely ever use this as Frost Strike replaces is mostly (except for ranged utility). Blood's will not hit as hard though it is the only use for RP, and Unholy's hits the hardest though it is really only used as described above.
Blood Stike = this is a simple one rune hit that scales with diseases. It is used by Frost and Unholy to convert Blood runes, but is replaced in almost all situations by Heart Strike for Blood.
Blood Boil = alternative to Blood/Heart Stike this will hit an unlimited number of targets within range of the target with a burst. It hits smaller than HS on each target but the lack of limit on count makes it very valuable for large groups. It benefits from having a disease on the target, but not per disease. It hits harder for Blood and Unholy but it is not uncommon for Frost to buff aoe threat either.
Beyond these each spec will use it's own set of abilities and methodologies. There is some overlap, and mechanics are not wholey different, but identifying the spec of the DK tank your with will help you understand the flavor of their strengths and styles.

Blood
Blood moves and buffs focus on physical damage. The usual focus moves are as follows:
Heart Strike = this is the primary spam, costing 1 blood rune. It hits two targets for a pretty heavy hit, and triggers several side effects depending on the finer points of the spec. The damage is distinctly increased for each disease on the target.
Death Strike = this is a very powerful tool in the Blood Knight's arsenal for both threat and survival. In addition to a reasonable amount of damage it restores 5% (7.5% in the next patch with talents) of the DK's total health per disease. This healing threat should not be disregarded. Protadins will average 4% or so of their threat from mana gains, and Blood DKs can average upwards of 4-6% of their threat from heals.

Blood gets a relatively small contribution from disease ticks, but having them both set and maintained is key to setting a solid foundation to threat, and without two diseases on the target threat is decreased from the other moves as well. Relative to other class/specs Blood is about on par with Bears and slightly behind Warriors on large group aoe threat, though, like both, with hard work the Blood Knight can still hold threat just fine. Like bears, it does take a bit of collecting and foundation to hold well. Blood is not bursty relative to other tanking classes, but like bears it rolls very solid long term threat.

Frost
Frost relies more heavily on spell effects and procs. Frost gets a lot of benefit from Frost Fever, but the only particular value it gets from Blood Plague is for the additional dot and a bit of damage buffing on Oblit, BS, and BB when it is used. The primary Frost tools are as follows:
Howling Blast = this is an unlimited target heavy hitting frost blast. With full buffing this is a huge single hit on every target it hits, though it has an 8 sec CD. With talents the CD can be refreshed with Oblit. On aoe pulls there is no other class/spec that can burst to this degree on as many targets.
Obliterate = this is a massive single target smash and a mainstay of frost's method. It hits marginally harder than HB but only hits the one target.
Frost Strike = this melee swing hits extremely hard as assited by the fact that it is frost damage and ignores armor completely. It cannot be dodged/parried/blocked either which helps buff its total effect against bosses nicely. This does not just replace DC as an RP use, it actually makes it very valuable for a Frost tank to have more RP and use it preferentially.

Frost uses double-rune cost moves heavily and generates a lot of space for RP dumping. Among the DK specs this is the most bursty and can match a warrior for heavy burst threat. Often times though the fastest threat comes at the expense of cruising threat down the road. Even for this fast burst it is best done with Frost Fever preset. Frost DKs are very strong on target switching burst threat. Frost's threat profile is very spikey as a result of relying on single large hits over many small hits.

Unholy
Unholy's backbone is in stacking dot effects. Unholy's diseases will tick substantially harder than the other two specs, as will it's DnD. To go with that Unholy uses the following tools:
Scourge Strike = Unholy's big truck move. This will hit quite hard, and as shadow damage it ignores armor completely. Generally speaking this is a primary item to spam when possible, though it is used more to fill between other CDs than it is used preferentially to other moves.
Corpse Explosion = this uses RP to detonate a corpse (doesn't work on elementals and mechanicals, stupid Udluar >.>) doing a burst of shadow damage to all mobs in the area. This is a very valuable burst tool on class 4 pulls where the fight won't last long and burst is essential.
Unholy Blight = point for point, after RS, this is the most damage for your RP, provided it can tick out its full duration. It hits an unlimited number of targets in close range and ticks every second. This passive set-and-maintain damage makes the DK a walking threat zone. This is generally worth having up at all times except in the case of aoe groups that will die in less than 8 seconds (where CE is better use first and on CD).

Unholy's nature buffs some of the standard moves very nicely, particularly BB and DS. BB will get a nice buff from Unholy's spell dmg buffing, and DS will benefit from the third disease. Setting both diseases, DnD, UB, and pinging BB and CE is ludicrous amounts of unlimited-target threat that I haven't seen matched by the other classes. What's more it is almost entirely passive (up to BB and CE) allowing the Unholy Knight to then focus on the important primary targets. Unholy, a bit more than the other DK specs, takes a bit of wind-up to set things in motion, but once it is set up the threat formidable and unmatchable for shear volume on large aoe pulls.

DK's vary spec to spec. Blood is very powerful against Boss and Bruisers (classes 1 and 2), is strong against focused groups (class 3), and is weaker against swarms (class 4). Frost is powerful snap threat on multiple targets making it exceptional for bruisers (class 2) and swarms (class 4), though the bursty nature of its threat make it slightly idealized for cruising on bosses (class 1) and focused threat on group pulls (class 3). Understand though, like protadins, Frost Knights will do these very well, it's just not as smooth and requires a little more attentiveness to keep it consistant. Unholy is extraordinary for large swarms (class 4) and focused groups (class 3). Provided sufficient setup Unholy Knights can hold bosses just fine (class 1), though they are not ideal for Bruisers and snap threat (class 2).
================================================== =

I want to stress this again as people throw around a great deal of undeserved superlatives.

Any tank class/spec can tank any encounter in the game perfectly effectively. Smart teams will use their tank that best matches the particular challenge of the fight, and understanding the tools can help you match the tanks well.

When it comes to tanking, player skill trumps all else for the largest contributing factor to performance. In terms of survival that player skill is 80% preparation in setting up your gear well, and 20% in positioning pulls smartly and using your CDs at the right time. In terms of threat, the player skill is entirely about attention to detail. Picking up targets effectively, putting threat where it's needed as it's needed, and using the right tools for the situation make the difference between a good tank and a great tank.

We are fortunate to play a game that can include such a variable and interactive level of play.

Satorri
05-19-2009, 09:36 AM
Oops, I crittededed again >.>

Squirrels
05-19-2009, 10:20 AM
Dear Original Author of this forum:

I dont know what tank classes you've been playing but threat really isnt an issue to the extent that u can classify a class better than the others unless u REALLY break it down into:

Snap threat (first 2 GCDs)
Snap Threat (AOE)
Snap threat (First 5 GCDs)
Threat while kiting
Threat while dpsing
AOE threat

etc, etc, etc

You ranked warriors as the 2nd worst yet i can roll 10k tps when im 1/2 asleep. Druids can also dominate once their lacerates are up. Dks play a spiking game with their TPS, from 1k tps to 14k and back again depending on rune strikes and disease refreshing. Paladins are generally good all around.

Threat has become a dps rotation style rather than a ZOMG HIT SHIELD SLAM MORE PLZ

- If you new @ the game, ull prob need a few GCDs before true dps can open up, even then they will have to stop
- If you understand game mechanics, u can probably do fine single target tanking, AOE is prob an issue unless ur a paladin... then its just LOL concencrate
- If you understand tanking, u can prob do all sorts of threat for avg dps
- If your the best @ your tanking class, u prob can rock threat meters and do HW or something else @ the same time

Stengel
05-19-2009, 10:27 AM
You ranked warriors as the 2nd worst yet i can roll 10k tps when im 1/2 asleep.

If you're saying that you can consistenly pull 10k tps without gimmicks then I want to see some evidence.

Thanks.

Saltycracker
05-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Wow, Satorri knocked this out of the park. That was the kind of comprehensive in depth analysis that I was going to move towards when I got the time. Glad I could springboard such a fine analysis.

Satorri, this is your world. I just live in it =)

Satorri
05-19-2009, 11:45 AM
Ha ha, we all just live in it. Though, we are the world...



Wow, that just took a kumbayah direction. >.>

Pluekiller
05-19-2009, 12:00 PM
Fantastic write up! +rep! oh wait...

Voodan
05-21-2009, 08:47 AM
I KNEW Satorri would end up critting this thread haha. Right up your ally o.O

Martie
05-21-2009, 09:20 PM
Pallies = +15% Str, +6 Expertise, +14% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +30% block value. 9% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmg reduction, 10% chance per hit to get +30% block chance for 10 sec. +5% heals on self.


This is rather incorrect.

First off, the seperate percentile bonuses that paladins get (damage reduction, stamina) don't add together, they multiply together. So it's 14.448% extra stamina, and slightly less damage reduction. Also, the spell damage reduction multiplied by the standard damage reduction, put as is it seems like paladins actually have less spell damage reduction then they have physical damage reduction.

Gear needs to be taken in to this equasion - warriors get guns which can give decent stat bonuses, something the other tanks lack. Also, paladins at least have a few standard tanking glyphs that should be taken into consideration (10 expertise, 3% damage reduction). I'm not sure how it is for the other tanks, but I'm pretty confident it is the same.

I love seeing these threads, and I would love to see a good comparison, but they need to be founded and without rookie mistakes (like the paladin health and damage reduction thing.)

One other thing to be noted is that virtually all paladin threat is from holy damage and most abilities are spells. This is usually a huge boon since armor is irrelevant and there is virtually no holy resistance in the game, but it can be dangerous if a boss is immune to spell damage or has spell reflect. (I've once managed to get 5 stacks of the seal of vengeance debuff on myself.)

If you want to make a comparison, stick to what you know, or make clear when you don't know the details about a class.

Martie
05-21-2009, 09:31 PM
You ranked warriors as the 2nd worst yet i can roll 10k tps when im 1/2 asleep.

As a paladin tank, I can out-aggro our warrior tank, who is slightly better geared then me. This usually isn't an issue, we both do more then enough threat for about all fights, but it does mean I need to stop my rotation after he taunts something off me.

I'll believe the 10k tps when you show me some proof of doing it on bosses that don't give you a threat boost.

Blueduck3285
05-21-2009, 09:57 PM
Great job Satorri.

To others, I hope that your actually taking into consideration what Satorri put into those posts. Lots of great information, if anything needs to be fixed just say so politely.

Rhyseh
05-21-2009, 10:44 PM
Satorri's wall of text hits Rhyseh for 9 959 567 (critical).
Rhyseh dies.

Very nice post. I don't think comparing the classes side by side is a good move, comparing each class and relevant specs side by side would be a more approriate approach (IMO).

Specpally
05-22-2009, 12:50 AM
I'll believe the 10k tps when you show me some proof of doing it on bosses that don't give you a threat boost.
10k+ tps isn't unheard of. With the right setup of a pally's exorcism, shield of righteousness and judgement, you can boost up to ~12k tps on any given right.

Martie
05-22-2009, 01:07 AM
10k+ tps isn't unheard of. With the right setup of a pally's exorcism, shield of righteousness and judgement, you can boost up to ~12k tps on any given right.
For peak threat, sure, I've done 12k.

But sustaining it?
For pallies, it seems unplausible. Here's some math why I think why.
let's see, weapon white hits should be like 400 dps or so, generously, 600 tps.

That leaves 9400 tps for your holy damage.
Holy damage has a 2.717 threat modifier, so you need to do 3460 dps for your holy damage.

That means doing 4k+ dps. As a tank. Sustained.
And honestly, 4k dps isn't plausible as a tank.

Sure, if you have rogues throwing you tricks of the trade and hunters misdirecting, it's doable. But that's not threat you are generating, that's threat others generate for you. (And again, it's not something you sustain, it just gives you some peak threat.)

Specpally
05-22-2009, 01:12 AM
For peak threat, sure, I've done 12k.

But sustaining it?
For pallies, it seems unplausible. Here's some math why I think why.
let's see, weapon white hits should be like 400 dps or so, generously, 600 tps.

That leaves 9400 tps for your holy damage.
Holy damage has a 2.717 threat modifier, so you need to do 3460 dps for your holy damage.

That means doing 4k+ dps. As a tank. Sustained.
And honestly, 4k dps isn't plausible as a tank.

Sure, if you have rogues throwing you tricks of the trade and hunters misdirecting, it's doable. But that's not threat you are generating, that's threat others generate for you. (And again, it's not something you sustain, it just gives you some peak threat.)
And by "sustaining" you mean for the whole fight or for 30+ seconds? I've achieved 10k tps for a while (next time I'm in Naxx I'll pop a picture)

Martie
05-22-2009, 01:21 AM
And by "sustaining" you mean for the whole fight or for 30+ seconds? I've achieved 10k tps for a while (next time I'm in Naxx I'll pop a picture)
You know what, forget about 10k tps. You tell me how you, as a paladin, plan to do 8k dps -alone- and I'll concede the point and send you some cookies.

You are allowed raid buffs, totems, anything that you can have for an entire fight. No bloodlust, tricks of the trade, misdirect, avenging wrath or any of those cooldown-limited abilities.

Oh, and make it a fair comparison - I know a ret paladin can do a shitload of threat if they turn on righteous fury, but we are talking about tanking here, so you need to remain a viable tank for Ulduar 25man.

And no screenshots or webstats either - you tell us how you do it and run the numbers for us.

And, well, duration doesn't really matter - you just need to depend on it. So if you can do it for 15 seconds, you should be able to do it for 10 minutes.

jere
05-22-2009, 05:09 AM
I think it might be useful for some readers to read through this thread before discussing 10-12k TPS sustained.
Maintankadin &bull; View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=414559#p414559)

It's a pretty interesting thread on pally threat if you get into that sort of thing.


And by "sustaining" you mean for the whole fight or for 30+ seconds? I've achieved 10k tps for a while (next time I'm in Naxx I'll pop a picture)
How are you measuring TPS for other than the entire fight? I will go ahead and tell you, if you are using Omen or some other threat meter to make that calcultion, then it isn't going to be accurate.

Satorri
05-22-2009, 10:28 AM
Nice resource link, Jere.

I'll do you one better and say average TPS is about as helpful as what color socks you're wearing today.

Pure and simple, threat is a matter of need, like healing, and NOT like DPS. If you are dpsing, and you can increase your damage output by 10%, awesome, everyone will be happy. If you are healing, the most healing that can be done is the amount of damage that is taken by the raid. I'd argue that if you are doing more than 20% of the total healing in a 25-man raid (gets wonky if you factor in Disc priests without factoring their shield absorbs as heals), then you are either not playing well as a team player, or your other healers are weak for the content.

If you are a tank, you only need to be doing more than the raid. The higher above your dps the less stressful it becomes, but if your highest threat dps is cruising at 4-5k tps (which is a pretty hefty amount for a dpser without CDs etc) it really doesn't matter if you're doing 6k tps or 10k tps. Unless you need to show off or measure your stuff to make sure you aren't too small.

What's more average TPS is about as rough an indicator as you can get for you performance on threat for a fight. There are 2 incredibly general zones:
1.) Initial threat = how easy is it for DPS to pull off you in the first 10-15 sec of the fight if say they crit 3 hits in a row
2.) Cruising threat = you've made it past 30 sec into the fight, are you turning out enough threat that people aren't going to catch up to you?

If you are smart on #1, the only thing that will make or break it is gear. Smart use of TotT and MD will save your ass and make things less dangerous for the raid. If you are even moderately skilled on #2 you can be doing only slightly higher tps than the dps and they cannot catch you, in fact your lead will constantly be growing.

Threat is a matter of need. ZOMGMYTPS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS is not helpful to the community, your team, or your self. We all enjoy reveling in our successes, but measuring contests rarely have any positive outcomes.

Voodan
05-22-2009, 10:47 AM
/agree with Satorri. Threat is only an issue when your dps is threat capped and generally only in that #1 initial threat stage. TPS is something that seperates a good tank from a poor one in the following situations imo:

1. Aggro Reset: It basically knocks you back to stage 1 again. You need to be able to sustain this tps

2. Picking up new mobs: It is imperative in some cases to get good threat on a few mobs as they pop enabling dps to start in on them right away

3. Taunting off a tank: I hate this part of an encounter with a poor tank. You'll find a lot of times that a tank switch is necessary, and tank 2 will taunt off of tank 1. Tank 1 will then proceed to actually try and push his tps to grab threat back from tank 2 for no legitimate reason. (Whenever I'm tank 1 in this situation, I'll actually stop autoattacking and make sure that tank 2 is able to pick him up first.)

4. Some movement fights require you to pump out good tps. In many ways these are more about bursting the tps than anything else, as you just need to make sure to keep maximum tps on the boss when you're able to attack them (General Vezax surge assuming you kite comes to mind)

Whether or not its feasible to achieve 10k tps sustained, it doesn't matter. Unless you can get a dps to do 9.9k dps (without dmg modifiers), then its an irrelevant point o.O

Anyways great summary by Satorri overall!

jere
05-22-2009, 03:34 PM
One other thing that people gloss over is that TPS varies from fight to fight. People who say their pally does X DPS/TPS in Ulduar or any other instance really should stop and think about what they say. No one does the same amount of DPS/TPS in every single fight, and a lot of the fights can vary very wildly.

As for the usefulness of "Average TPS", I will say that typically, your average TPS is a good indicator of your "cruising TPS" for a lot of fights (Patchwerk, XT, Ignus, Kolgoron -- assuming you don't do the adds). For some they will be totally different (Razorscale for example). Basically, your average TPS is going to be close to your cruising TPS in fights that are "tank and spank" from the tank's perspective and not close at all on fights that require changes, periods of inactivity, etc.

The main thing is to understand where and when what terms are applicable and what their usefulness is.

Satorri
05-23-2009, 06:21 AM
Aye, so what say we try to coerce our detour back into the original topic.

I'm curious to hear from bears, warriors, and protadins who pay avid attention to their running survival abilities. Particularly, I'm interested to here about blocks/Savage Defenses. How much do they typically absorb, and how often to you block (vs miss/dodge/parry or getting hit)?

One particular element that is hard to gauge in relative survival is that DKs are the one class that is not capable of any sort of block mechanism. I imagine that's part of why they have IBF at a higher absorbance on a short CD (35% on 1 min CD next to, say, bears 20% on 1 min, or pally/warriors 40% on 2 min with all the fixin's).

I want to get a sense of the average % of damage avoided (so WWS will help here). If you take the amout that gets past avoidance, take the amount of those that get blocked, and factor your block value (crit adjusted average for warriors) how much are you functionally preventing with your shields.

Darksend
05-23-2009, 06:40 AM
ThinkTank: savage defense (http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/search/label/savage%20defense)

There are still a million and 1 bugs with latency and Savage defense making it OP against 5+ mobs and only about 50% as effective as it should be against a single target

ttocs
05-24-2009, 02:13 PM
Satorri, two things:

1) Where'd you get 35% + defense for IBF? Or is that an assumed baseline at 540? (iirc it's 45ish% at 540).

2) How many keyboards do you go through in a day to write up these things?

Satorri
05-24-2009, 03:37 PM
1.) 35% at 540 def, though I allowed for variability since people can be above or below that cap with defense and it will vary, where no one else's will. It is 35%, it was 45% for a brief while with the glyph, but Blizz decided it was not intended and hotfixed it out.

2.) I don't stinge on keyboards, mine are VERY durable. =)

Dhalphir
05-24-2009, 03:53 PM
You ranked warriors as the 2nd worst yet i can roll 10k tps when im 1/2 asleep.
-
please don't come in and make statements like this, especially if you're going to make the statement without proof, or a reasonable command of the English language.
thanks.

ttocs
05-24-2009, 05:10 PM
1.) 35% at 540 def, though I allowed for variability since people can be above or below that cap with defense and it will vary, where no one else's will. It is 35%, it was 45% for a brief while with the glyph, but Blizz decided it was not intended and hotfixed it out.

Actually, according to Death Knight FAQ. Read this before posting! - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t42539-death_knight_faq_read_before_posting/), it's ~41%, unglyphed, at 540 defense.

Satorri
05-25-2009, 07:00 AM
Hmmm, good to know. I never actually analyzed it myself, I had just taken Blizz at their word. =)

Remember back when it wasn't variable and was just a flat 60%? Ha ha ha, though at the time we were squishy as hell outside our CDs. =(

ttocs
05-25-2009, 01:53 PM
...and Frost Presence was a 45% armor increase, along with bone shield being a 40% damage reduction? Yeah, the class has changed a lot, and I presume it'll change a lot more in the coming patches.

Boeten
05-25-2009, 11:44 PM
Well if you really want to work on a sort of comparison like that, here's some info for you :P

DKs may not have any sort of block mechanism, but on a roughly equal gear level with Blade Barrier and Frost Presence DKs mitigate physical damage 9.75% ( 11.55% with Imp. Frost Presence) more than Warrior(**). Subtract ~1.8% from both number for comparison with Paladin. Number not exactly precise, but they should be pretty close. You can treat this as DKs "block that is 100% up", it's pretty useless on trash (9.75% of 5k is barely noticable) but it's big on Gen. Vezax-25 (9.75% of 26k is about 2.5k).

(**) If you take a DKs armor and Warrior's armor on equal gear level, you will typically find DKs armor mitigate at the level of Warrior's armor + 10% defensive stance. For example, a Warrior mitigate ~61%, with defensive stance it becomes 64.9%. With roughly equal gear level, DKs mitigate ~65% straight from armor.

IBF is 41% at 540 def, Glyph of IBF is useless for tanking since they have already fixed it. It's easy to test, just go to OS, bathe in lava. Do DnD - HoW and immediately activate IBF.

Paladin's CD are slightly complicated because using Div. Prot causes Forbearance, and if a Paladin had used AW then Div. Prot can't be used for the next 30s (if I remember correctly), this was introduced when people were QQing about Bubble/AW combo in PvP. Paladin's second cooldown, Hand of Salvation, shaves 20% threat so it may not be useful in certain cases.

As for blocking, it will be difficult to gauge the "typical" block percentage on a Warrior. The reason is a Warrior can gear for different things (EH/avoidance/threat). Just for example, a Warrior buddy of mine on roughly equal gear level, gears slightly towards Avoidance/EH. He has ~same avoidance with me (total about 56%), ~17% block with ~1.2k BV unbuffed. That means if a hit is not avoided, he has (17/44 = ) 38.6% chance to block for 1.2k. But on the other hand you can see the thread by Cider showing him covering fulll 102.4% hit table with Block :) Warrior's block has a 30% chance to crit for double block value.

As for Paladin, if you can assume that Holy Shield is always up, they will block virtually every attack. My Paladin on Naxx-10 gear can almost cover the full hit table, so I assume they can cover the full 102.4% on Naxx-25/Uld level without the need to purposely gear for it.

Paladins and Warrior should have roughly the same base block value (excluding Librams) because both have talents to add 30% BV.

I'm not educated on (nor have played) our furry counterpart so I have no idea how they work.

Satorri
05-26-2009, 10:24 AM
I was curious, since you (Boeten) gave precise values with a bit of vaguery of what 'comparable' gear the warrior and DK have, so I played with WoWhead's set comparison tool to see what I could come up with.

**Bear with me, I'm sandboxing a bit.

So as an addendum to what I did above, I constructed sets using all 5 pieces of the t8.5 tanking sets, and first I added identical and average non-set epics (bracers, belt, boots, neck, rings) to match for both, and then added appropriate weapons for each. All items are 226 level (232 weapons), so no hardmode gear. I also made a second warrior set with more block gear. I did take Rune Edge for the DK set since that would be an ideal survival weapon and would provide additional armor from the Agi. I tried to avoid pieces with too many additional sockets that could leave too much open, and I left off trinkets as there are no Ulduar trinkets with armor and so those will be used to boost avoidance, health, or defense as the individual needs. I'm working on the assumption that most people aren't socketing agility so I'll disregard gems for now as well.

Here's the comparison: (from left to right)
DK Tank / Warrior Tank (non-block) / Warrior Tank (block focus) (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=46118:46119:46120:46121:46122:45166:45825 :45111:45538:45112:45326:45233;46162:46164:46166:4 6167:46169:45111:45825:45166:45538:45326:45112:404 00:45137:45110;46162:46164:46166:46167:46169:45139 :45542:45111:45326:45247:45262:40400:45110:45137)

So for a quick comparison,

Armor
DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
= (13500 x 1.15 x 1.80) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
= 29069

Warrior (general set) = 22272 (21390 multipliable)
= (21390 x 1.10) + 882 (non-multx) + 0 (Agi)
= 24411

Warrior (block set) = 21390 (all multipliable)
= 21390 x 1.10
= 23529

From the slightly dated, but still accurate calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.html/):

So against a boss (83):
DK = 63.6%
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

Warriors get 10% all dmg reduction in Def stance. DK's get 5% from Frost Pres, and can upkeep 5% from Blade Barrier (we'll call it 100% uptime for simplicity). So, both have that 10% additional and we'll call that a wash.

That puts the DK at a 4.1% edge over the general set and 5% over the block set.

The DK's set will have about 9% miss, 27% dodge, and 22% parry (taking generic talents, and average values), for a total of 58% avoidance.

To factor out block we need to know the % possibility and the value blocked:
Block chance is added in the hit table below miss/dodge/parry and above regular hits. So, if your miss+dodge+parry is greater than 100%-block chance your block chance will be shrunken (but you'll never take an unblocked hit). From the gear sets avoidance (without accounting for trinkets which will be at most 1.5-2% dodge/parry each, or gems) is only about 23% dodge, 15% parry, and 9% miss, totalling less than 50% so reasonable block chances will not be close to occluded even adding trinkets and pure avoidance gems. We'll round up to 50% for a round number to consider when we factor in Shield Block. Block chance factoring block rating and defense rating should be about (note this doesn't factor using block related trinkets):
General set = 17.6%
Block set = 24.0%

For block value, you take half your strength and add your block value from your shield and gear, and multiply by 1.3 (talent). For the two sets presented:
General set = 1079
Block set = 1420

Block value can 'crit' at a 30% chance and double the block value on that block. For Shield Block it has a 10 sec uptime on a 40 sec CD or a 25% uptime. During that time 50% of the swings taken will be blocked (the 50% not avoided).

So, let's create the scenario. The boss, fully de-hasted has a 2.4 sec swing timer and a 50k unmitigated hit.

Here's a very general breakdown:
DK
From armor and stance/blade barrier, hits that connect will do 16380 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 84 will connect, all for full value. On average that's 2867 dps incoming.

Warrior (gen)
From armor, hits that connect will do 18225 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 51 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 26 normal blocks, 16 will be reduced by 1079, 8 will crit and be reduced by 2158. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2158, and 8 will be reduced by 4316. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17146, 16067, and 13909 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3501 dps incoming.

Warrior (block)
From armor, hits that connect will do 18630 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 61 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 36 normal blocks, 25 will be reduced by 1420, 11 will crit and be reduced by 2840. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2840, and 8 will be reduced by 5680. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17210, 15790, and 12950 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3546 dps incoming.

At these numbers it may look like the DK has a bit of an edge, but here's where napkin math fails. Shield blocks reduce incoming damage by a static amount and block chances don't diminish. Borrowing from a friend's actual block set, if the warrior had 24k armor (61.3% dmg reduction), 31% block, and 1491 block value, with 49% avoidance, using the same metric as above:
200 swings
98 swings avoided
30 unmitigated swings for 17415
33 normal blocks for 15924
14 normal crit blocks for 14433
17 shield block normal blocks for 14433
8 shield block crit blocks for 11451
============================
Total incoming dps = 3306

And using only my passive values as a Blood DK, I have 30.7k armor worth 66.8% reduction, and 52.5% avoidance. Again, same scenario:
200 swings
105 swings avoided
95 unmitigated swings for 14940
============================
Total incoming dps = 2957

This does not account for use of trinkets, CDs other than Shield Block, or raid buffs (which will scale differently). At least these are real numbers.

A further curiosity, as his block set uses Lavanthor's Talisman (+440 bv for 20 sec on a 2 min CD), if he uses that on CD, matching it with Shield Block every time he can (which would be 50% of the trinket's used duration), that's 50% of the Shield Blocked blocks get +440 and 50% of the non-SB'd blocks get +440. Copying down from the above and adjusting the values slightly:
200 swings
98 swings avoided
28 unmitigated swings for 17415
33 normal blocks for 15924 (16 for 15484)
14 normal crit blocks for 14433 (7 for 13553)
17 shield block normal blocks for 14433 (8 for 13553)
8 shield block crit blocks for 11451 (4 for 9691)
============================
Total incoming dps = 2161 (use of that trinket on CD, with optimal timing and results gave a HUGE reduction, a full 33%)

So, to compare, my one trinket, the JC crafted Monarch Crab, gives about 7.6% dodge on use, for 10 sec every 2 min. Conveniently the two trinkets are the same level. Again, I'll pull down my numbers from above:
200 swings
120 swings avoided
80 unmitigated swings for 14940
============================
Total incoming dps = 2490 (notice here the reduction is not as sizeable, the block value trinket in the block value set results in a much more significant reduction though it does so by taking more hits for smaller values. He actually takes 102 hits many of which are blocked while I only take 80 hits).

I'll spare some of the repeat math, we'll take (removing trinkets again) that the real BV set functionally reduces the average swing damage by 3030 on the functional average block chance of 36% (31% buffed by Shield Block on CD).

So, let's consider 2 different scenarios. Before our boss had a 2.0 sec (2.4 de-hasted) swing time and a 50k unmitigated hit. So let's try:
Boss A: 1.0 sec swing timer, 25k hit
Boss B: 3.0 sec swing timer, 75k hit
Note, all 3 have the same unmitigated dps of 25k.

I'll keep using the real numbers from above, I'll just refer to them as DK and Warrior. So we'll take an 8 min window, for Boss A dehasted (1.2 sec swing) that is 400 swings, and for Boss B (3.6 sec swing) that is 133 swings.
DK
Boss A = 190 swings connect for 8300
Boss B = 63 swings connect for 24900
============================
Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3285
Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3268

Warrior
Boss A = 204 swings not avoided: 144 blocked hit for 6645, 60 connect for 9675
Boss B = 68 swings not avoided: 48 blocked hit for 25995, 20 connect for 29025
============================
Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3203
Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3809

So, for the DK swing speed and scale doesn't make much difference. For the Warrior, as makes sense logically, faster swings are more greatly reduced. The faster the attacks the better the warrior fairs, and here the warrior surpasses the DK on Boss A, but falls behind on Boss B, worse than the original average swinging boss, though it's all within a reasonable margin.


(crit post to be continued with consideration for Bears and Paladins)

Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. =)

Boeten
05-26-2009, 06:44 PM
DK = 63.6%
Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

Warriors get 10% all dmg reduction in Def stance. DK's get 5% from Frost Pres, and can upkeep 5% from Blade Barrier (we'll call it 100% uptime for simplicity). So, both have that 10% additional and we'll call that a wash.

That puts the DK at a 4.1% edge over the general set and 5% over the block set.


We have the same conclusion, although I just want to clarify for other people who are reading this why I said it's 9.75% and you said it's 4.1%.

With 59.5% damage reduction, a Warrior takes 40.5% damage for every hit. 40.5% is going to be reduced with def. stance, which will bring it to 36.4%. With 63.6% damage reduction a DK has, a DK will take 36.4% damage. Exactly the same :)

So the difference is really just the Blade Barrier and Frost Presence, which, as they are multiplicative, provides additional 9.75% mitigation (0.95x0.95 = 0.90775).

And just as we speak, 3.1.3 patch notes is up and it reduces DK armor by 20%. It will totally remove DKs so called "block" now.

With 60% extra armor DKs mitigation is 59.89%, very very close to 59.5% that warrior has currently, and Blade Barrier/Frost Presence is very very close to Def. stance.

For all the people who keep saying Blizzard has no idea what they're doing with their game, believe me that they do. That 60% and 80% values don't come from nowhere or plucked from the sky. It matches perfectly with a certain model, and we don't know how many different models they have on their sleeves.

Equality? Let's wait until we hear what willl change on block on (maybe) next major patch :)

edit: that last statement sounded bad (QQ), so to clarify, as of this moment, even with 20% reduction in armor, I still think that DK has a slight edge ahead, although it definitely is a lot closer than before. The reason is that as long as block is not a guaranteed mitigation, it will just act like a mana saving index. In terms of mana saving, it won't beat the health recovery that Death Strike provides in block's current form.

Boeten
05-26-2009, 10:22 PM
sorry for double post, but I think there are two different points covered here.

Satorri, the reason why I have never posted exact gear comparison and always being vague about gear, is that because gear comparison is just a matter of application of the game mechanic.

For example, in your Warrior non-block set, notice that some pieces from T8.5 still contain block value/rating. No one is preventing us to swap those pieces with other gear that contains no block value/rating at the cost of set bonus. How we apply the mechanic of the game (and our luck on drops) will be different from person to person.

But the game mechanic don't change regardless of what gear we pick. For example, let's look at one thing: avoidance.

1) as a DK
- 25% STR as Parry Rating (pre-DR)
- 5% Dodge non-DR
- 3% Avoidance non DR+2% health or 4% avoidance non-DR, +Sigil
- Whatever avoidance from Agility

2) as a Warrior/Paladin
- 5% Parry non-DR
- 5% Dodge non-DR
- Avoidance from Weapon+Shield (and Ranged for Warrior)
- Whatever avoidance from Agility

If you look at it, post-BladeBarrier change, assuming both character wear exactly the same set of gear (assuming they exist), DK is not favored by the game mechanics in avoidance compared to a Warrior/Paladin, and vice versa (even if there is a difference, they will be minutae difference).

I could be looking from a wrong angle, of course, but that's how I'm looking at it currently.

Since we can have infinite variation of gear, this landscape is very volatile and thus in my opinion we shouldn't make a tank comparison based on a certain "set" of gear. Instead maybe we should focus on the mechanic comparison and the tools available for all tanks in order to handle the different challenges in the game. For example if I remember correctly Druids used to be very very challenged on multi-mobs tanking. That in my opinion is a more important type of comparisons discussions instead of whether I have 1% more avoidance in my gearset compared to my Warrior friend :)

Satorri
05-27-2009, 06:55 AM
Part of the reason for my above diatribe and continued work on trying to illustrate class mechanics with numbers is the misconception that any of the tank classes is appreciably better than the others.

The point is, DKs get a good measure more from armor to compensate for the fact that we have no block mechanic. The different mechanics also scale very differently, and are ideal for different tanking scenarios.

In general I want this to be a public service message instead of a pity party for anyone in the community that is ready to latch onto QQ of "my class is gimped and inferior."

(next to come, Paladin block considerations and approximations on Savage Defense theoretical function)

Astemus
05-27-2009, 07:17 AM
I'm in the process of getting all 4 tanking classes geared up to be able to draw some objective conclusions on how effective each is. I tanked naxx10/25 on my warrior and druid, and am starting naxx10 on my paladin. I really can say there isn't much of a difference between them where it matters most. I think that blizzard has done an excellent job of balancing the different tanks. It seems that most people's perception of imbalance is mostly due to gear or skill differences. Knowing when you should be using CDs, when to move here or there, when to take a hit instead of risking repositioning, all are independant of what class you are playing.

For the most part, comparisons like this aren't very useful. If, say, on Hodir, a bear tank is 5% more effective, that won't help you kill him. It's far from where things were even 1 or 2 patches ago, when DKs and druids were kings of sarth+3d.

I think the value in comparing the different tanks is more on the playstyle side. Which tank will you enjoy playing, what will mesh with your guild's roster more, etc.

Satorri
05-27-2009, 09:17 AM
To add to my previous considerations I wanted to look at the distinction in the blocking style of a Paladin and the Savage Defense tool for Bears. **Disclaimer: I know Savage Defense isn't working fully as intended right now, and I'll need some input to understanding exactly how it procs, but I'll give it a start.**

To continue the same boss comparison, here are our 3 bosses:
Boss A = 25k unmitigated, 1.0 sec swing speed
Boss B = 50k unmitigated, 2.0 sec swing speed
Boss C = 75k unmitigated, 3.0 sec swing speed

I'll pull real stats from a few more of my well-geared tank friends:
Protadin: (we'll add imp Dev aura and BoSanc) 27220 armor (64.1% dmg reduction), 52.6% avoidance, 16.5% base block chance, 1316 block value (+458 for 5 sec after judging, judging on CD that's 5 sec out of every 8, or 62.5% uptime or 1602 avg block value), we'll assume 100% uptime on Holy Shield. Redoubt proc will vary with boss attack speed. 12% all damage reduction (he doesn't have Glyph of Divine Plea so I'll leave that out).

We'll take an 8 minute window on each boss.

Protadin
Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
210 swings avoided
*1 swing every 12 sec will proc redoubt on avg so, we'll give it an 83% uptime, so we'll average the effective block rate as 71.5% which is more than the unavoided swings, and we'll count every hit that connects as a block*
190 blocked swings hit for average 6296
=========================================
Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
105 swings avoided
*1 swing every 24 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 42% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 59%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
95 blocked swings hit for average 14194
=========================================
Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
70 swings avoided
*1 swing every 36 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 28% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 55%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
63 blocked swings hit for average 22092
=========================================
Boss A = 2492 incoming dps
Boss B = 2809 incoming dps
Boss C = 2900 incoming dps

Bear: 33073 armor (68.5%, he is heavily geared for armor), 46% avoidance, 34.4% crit chance (for proc chance), 4652 AP (for shield size), all in bear form. We'll say 3 out of every 4 GCD's is a move that can crit (let me know if that's too conservative or not enough). That means a shield will proc roughly once every 6 secs, and will absorb 1163.

Bear
Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
184 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 5 hits, so ~20% block chance*
80 hits shielded hit for 5767
136 hits connect directly for 6930
=========================================
Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
92 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 2.5 hits, so ~40% block chance*
80 hits shielded hit for 12697
28 hits connect directly for 13860
=========================================
Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
61 swings avoided
*1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 1.7 hits, so ~60% block chance which is more than avg avoid so we'll say all unavoided are shielded*
72 hits shielded hit for 19627
=========================================
Boss A = 2925 incoming dps
Boss B = 2925 incoming dps
Boss C = 2944 incoming dps



Some big themes and little revelations come out of this for me. Paladins seem to be reasonably, on average, able to block everything they don't avoid. With significant block value that can make for signficant protection. I did give the pally a bit of an edge the others didn't have in allowing a couple buffs like BoSanc and Devo Aura, but a prot pally won't likely be without that. Bears are capable of scary amounts of armor, I see from inspecting my friend, and I did not expect how SD would work *in theory.* It has an interesting interplay with incoming attack speed. The slower the attacks the more likely the bear is to block everything (it's logical but it hadn't occured to me like that). Obviously because bears have no talents or ways to buff that block value beyond just AP, the block value has the capacity to be somewhat smaller than the shield tanks, but it is not by much.

Overall themes to pull in, not surprisingly, Warriors and Paladins do better and better on incoming damage the faster and smaller the attacks (a la trash or just fast swinging bosses), though relating this to trash will change things slightly for the protadin. The warrior should remiain unphased, but if the paladin takes more than 1 physical swing per second, factoring avoidance, he may actually slip from 100% uptime on Holy Shield.


Some valuable assumptions to note for aspiring tanks or folks who didn't read every little detail or between the lines:


All bosses were fully dehasted (20%, as opposed to the unbuffed 12%). Without any de-hasting (Tclap, Frost Fever, Infected Wounds, or Judge of Just), or with unimproved dehasting the bosses would have swings as follows:

Boss A = 480 swings (0%) / 429 swings (12%) / 400 swings (20%)
Boss B = 240 swings (0%) / 214 swings (12%) / 200 swings (20%)
Boss C = 160 swings (0%) / 143 swings (12%) / 133 swings (20%)

De-hasting is very valuable, and getting full-improved dehaste will
save an appreciable amount of damage.


Warriors are using Shield Block on CD, Paladins are using Holy Shield on CD. Both these abilities will fall off pretty quickly in how much they save you depending on how sharp you are in using them.
Bear bubbles are tricky as they actually proc off of what the bear does for threat, not incoming attacks. That said it's possible to get a range of effect depending on how the bear tanks. I'm assuming Lacerate crits cannot proc the effect, though I'm also assuming the bear is using Lacerate regularly but not spamming it. It was hard to account for Maul/melee swings and Mangle/Swipe. On multi-target pulls I'm assuming Swipe crits on each additional target can increase the proc chance, but on bosses I think my estimate was probably still conservative.
CD's are a major tool and the different classes use CDs differently. DKs can IBF on CD and it is a significant degree of protection, and each spec has its own long CD that is used differently. Paladin's long CDs are somewhat less accessible though they are HUGE when they're used (LoH is about the biggest lifesaver you could have as a tank). Bears don't have much by way of survival CDs, with only really a threat-sacrificing self heal, health boost, and a protections skill at half the value of the DK's on the same CD. Warrior CDs actually have the most variety, and can cover the most situations, but they are still on a slightly longer CD.

It's an odd thing, looking at these numbers you'd expect the warriors to be taking the most damage, but I've never seen that really to be the case. I suppose it's easy to be misled by A.) the vagueries of this very general simulation, B.) the difference in the gear sets of the avatars selected (the warrior was in his block/threat set, and I happen to know he uses different sets when he needs to be more durable), and C.) there are always factors that are not well-accounted for.


I'll repeat my interests and concerns here, a big part of the reason I've filled this thread with long-winded, detailed discussions is that, rather than giving people grounds for a pity party, I want people to see the difference in how each class works. I want people to appreciate that the differences between each class/spec is not as severe as you might think, or may be led to believe by the gross generalized complaints you hear. The game is nowhere near imbalanced. Are there details that could be adjusted or balanced a little closer? Sure, but no one is without value and no tank is incapable of any tanking assignment, you are just often best suited by picking the class that matches the challenge best from your *team*. And if you don't play on a team (how you know: you don't cooperate or strategize, you just run in and try to Rambo it), I'm sorry you're missing out on the best quality of the endgame world.

Astemus
05-27-2009, 11:25 AM
Some of my concern on your info Satorri is the OP of this thread has some crazy stuff there, and it's kind of buried. This is really useful info that should be in a thread of its own, not buried on page 5 of a thread started by 2 pages of flames.

Satorri
05-27-2009, 01:09 PM
If folks are interested I can pull my essays out and place them in a new fresh thread, but I didn't want to bog things down making duplicate threads.

I'll do it now, actually, since you aren't the first person to comment.

jere
05-27-2009, 04:59 PM
I posted some nit picks on the math in your other thread. In general, the health and mitigation values for paladins are off a bit:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50701-class-explications-satorri.html#post231224

chompy
05-27-2009, 05:34 PM
As far as some numbers. I can't really compare the classes but i'd give Bears another point in the raid buff box. Imp GotW is up there as far as the best raid buff to have. And the 5% crit raidwide from Leader of the Pack is awesome too.

Also the Threat. Spaming swipe is usually good enough to hold a mob. On bosses I hardly ever drop below 5k tps. Not sure how that compares to other classes but thats what these posts are for :)

CKaz
05-28-2009, 01:05 PM
I appreciate the sentiment but not the method.

I think it is worthwhile to discuss and educate the community about the capabilities and skill sets of each tank class/spec. That said your method is cursory, subjective, and very much reductionist.

[snip large but detailed, quality, and frankly imo necessary, post]



That's put much better than I did, but exactly what I meant :D

Any less than an indepth review brings about too many generalizations, if not outright fallacies. Certainly grading scales at the very least are flawed and don't add much to [intelligent] discussion, though apparently they may start one. ;)

I'd love a new topic anchored by your quality posts Satorri! :)