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Maelbolgia
05-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Our guild is currently using a zero sum dkp system to distribute Ulduar loot. The price of an item is based on its slot, its stats, and the class/spec of the person interested in the item. The current loot rules are such that a machine could be the loot master. This system worked great for BC, because there was a separation between spell power/healing power, among other itemizations for various classes. The system is also very quick and efficient because all prices are instantly known by all raiders, and no discussion was necessary to determine the price of an item.

In Wrath however, there is a significant overlap between how different archetypes gear. The difference between dps gear and tanking gear for a feral tank is more of a subjective judgement, balancing an identical set of stats available on leather armor. The same dilemma applies to spell power gear: it is no longer clear-cut as to whether it is dps or healing, it's just optimal or suboptimal for a particular role/class/spec.

I guess the short version of this post is how do you guys price offspec items? Is it based on an objective system, where the item's value is "fixed" based on stats, or a subjective system where a raider chooses the value based on how much usefulness the item provides to the raider?

Lizana
05-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Off spec costs the same as main spec... Because honestly there isnt "offspec" for a lot of people. If they want the item for their dps gear set, and they are a tank, at some point that dps set will be their main set. Healers and caster dps share the loot so why should one get it for cheaper than the other?

Maelbolgia
05-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Off spec costs the same as main spec... Because honestly there isnt "offspec" for a lot of people. If they want the item for their dps gear set, and they are a tank, at some point that dps set will be their main set. Healers and caster dps share the loot so why should one get it for cheaper than the other?

This seems a bit too aggressive, since it pretty much means all the offspec loot is DE'ed. It also looks like this discussion was started up before here http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f92/43161-offspec-loot-dkp.html

orcstar
05-09-2009, 03:51 AM
We consider 4 specs: dps, tank, healing and obvious pvp items.
No sidespec.

The pricing of an offspec item is: 1 abyss crystal, to be deposited in guildbank because that's what would have been the other option: disenchanting it.

marklar
05-11-2009, 10:52 AM
We consider 4 specs: dps, tank, healing and obvious pvp items.
No sidespec.


there would actually be 5 specs if you include PVP - for some classes you have to differentiate between caster dps and melee dps.

Horacio
05-13-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't know if there is a 'right' answer to this issue because there are so many ins and outs and details to consider. What now exactly constitutes an off spec item? I suppose a dedicated ret paladin would say a tanking piece was as would a rest shammy say the same for mail with AGI and AP. But would a piece with heavy block value and block rating be offspec to a protection warrior? Would a piece of cloth with hit rating be off spec to a holy priest? Would an item that favored a combat spec over a mutilate spec be the same for a rogue?

How many players in a raid are truly asked to ever go with their second spec? Maybe one or 2 hybrids are asked to heal. Maybe someone is asked to tank if another tank misses a raid.

I am personally against having different prices for the same items based on circumstances. Its alot of work for the person keeping the DKP. Its the same item no matter who loots it. I don't believe utilizing every single last piece of loot the most efficiently is all that important, either. If players don't want to spend DKP on it, they don't want it that bad.

Delicatesse
05-14-2009, 02:47 AM
I think offloot should be CHEAP to encourage building offspec gearsets which greatly enhance a guild's raid setup flexibility. For similar reason, all loot for alts must be also cheap.
Also, playing multiple roles is the best way to hone one's gameplay skills. Many of our members play 2-4 specs extremely well and have Ulduar ready gearsets for these roles. Yay for holy-prot-retadins :)

Our looting/raid invite system ensures you can't abuse cheap offspec/alt looting, but that's quite offtopic I think :)

orcstar
05-14-2009, 04:15 AM
How many players in a raid are truly asked to ever go with their second spec? Maybe one or 2 hybrids are asked to heal. Maybe someone is asked to tank if another tank misses a raid.And it sure is nice to have that option. Our druid tank paladin tank have a full set of offspec healing gear and a dual spec. Our DK tank and me have a dps side spec. It makes reacting to the need of different raid setups just that much easier.


I am personally against having different prices for the same items based on circumstances. Its alot of work for the person keeping the DKP. Its the same item no matter who loots it. I don't believe utilizing every single last piece of loot the most efficiently is all that important, either. If players don't want to spend DKP on it, they don't want it that bad.
If offspec loot gets sharded because people are saving dkp it's always a bad thing. Ofcourse you don't have people in raid filling other roles because they don't want to spend dkp on offspec loot. So they don't have the gear.

Lizana
05-14-2009, 09:27 AM
If offspec loot gets sharded because people are saving dkp it's always a bad thing. Ofcourse you don't have people in raid filling other roles because they don't want to spend dkp on offspec loot. So they don't have the gear.

And if you foster a raid environment where you make it okay to horde dkp you have greater issues than off specs

Maelbolgia
05-14-2009, 02:42 PM
I think offloot should be CHEAP to encourage building offspec gearsets which greatly enhance a guild's raid setup flexibility. For similar reason, all loot for alts must be also cheap.
Also, playing multiple roles is the best way to hone one's gameplay skills. Many of our members play 2-4 specs extremely well and have Ulduar ready gearsets for these roles. Yay for holy-prot-retadins :)

I agree that offspec loot should be cheap. Our offspec prices are extremely low. But my concern isn't price, but rather criteria for offspec loot. I.e. what do you consider offspec? This is very easy to answer for a paladin because all three specs for a paladin have completely different itemization. It gets a lot more ambigous with other classes such as spell casters.


Our looting/raid invite system ensures you can't abuse cheap offspec/alt looting, but that's quite offtopic I think :)

Would you mind elaborating this actually?

mattdeeze
06-07-2009, 01:35 PM
We use EPGP and offer the option for people to roll as offspec at half price. However, anyone rolling main spec (for full price) would have priority over anyone rolling offspec. Therefore people do have the option to try to get it for a cheaper price (reducing the number of DE's), at the risk of losing the item to someone willing to pay full price for it.

Matt

shez
06-10-2009, 10:45 PM
we bid offspec with gold, 150g minimum bid (highest bidder win), gold goes to guild repair for raid, which can go up to 3k per night, which is working very well atm, and people are happy with this system.

I don't like bidding offspec with dkp which means people will be slow in getting main spec gear if they are lucky with offspec drops. Some people might not even care about main spec loot and save dkp for offspecs (people who are forced into a certain role)

Yes the definition for offspec can be blur in wotlk, thats why we have class leaders, they decide whether a certain piece is mainspec/offspec, members of course can also disagree with reasons.

As for tanks, we have different sets, all tank gear is considered main spec (but i'd call it offset).

DPs classes have no main/offspec, e.g. rogues hunters, mages, warlocks, they can have offsets (hit set/crit set, maybe?), but not offspec, but they'll have to use dkp on those.

TiptoesDMF
06-11-2009, 04:00 AM
We use EP/GP system modified to our group needs:

Mainspec gear - gear for the role you are recruited to our raid group, fixed DKP price, always has priority over other cathegories

Offpsec gear - gear for your second role / talent set, usualy goes for half the DKP price in gold to be paid to group bank. Goes for PvP gear as well.

Sidegrade gear - gear of similar i-level that is not really an upgrade for you, but completing another mainspec set (ie before mentioned warr tank needing on block item, that will be used in few encounters only, mp5 healer needing on crit gear etc), usualy goes for half the DKP price to be paid in gold. Sidegrade priority usualy beats offspec, however it is up to raidmembers to pass to each other if they feel like it.

So far it works very nicely, of course it needs people to be honest about their rolls and ML has to have great overview of gear allocation in the raid.

+ EP/GP mainspec, very fair DKP system
+ Offspec / sidegrade set fairly, gold earned goes to bank to supply flasks / fishes

- can get quite messy in /ra if there are mainspecs, sidegrades and offspec interests
- requires maturity and honesty from people

Daavos
06-11-2009, 01:17 PM
Because honestly there isnt "offspec" for a lot of people.

^this.

Warwench
06-11-2009, 01:20 PM
We use EPGP.

If you will equip it and use it to replace an item you use for your main spec, or it is for building a second set of gear for your main spec, it's EPGP

If it is offspec, it's gold in the guild bank.

Daavos
06-11-2009, 01:21 PM
The pricing of an offspec item is: 1 abyss crystal, to be deposited in guildbank because that's what would have been the other option: disenchanting it.

Question? Wouldn't this be consider an unfair advantage to all the enchanters in your guild?

orcstar
06-11-2009, 10:37 PM
Question? Wouldn't this be consider an unfair advantage to all the enchanters in your guild?
In what way?

Daavos
06-12-2009, 07:52 AM
In what way?

It's easier for enchanters to acquire crystals from de'ing items, then from non-enchanters who's only option is from the AH.

Cathandris
06-16-2009, 09:18 AM
As many have noted, off-spec in the end promotes raid flexibility. We run EPGP for all 25s, and common sense for 10s. In 25s, main specs get priority over anyone who considers the piece off spec gear. When no one rolls for main, off spec gets a chance and are charged 10% of what the normal GP cost for the item would be. If someone like a shammy grabs a piece for their elemental set (off) and finds out that it works better for their resto set (main), I just go back and adjust the GP later. This of course requires trust amongst people you give loot to. In the end, we don't charge equivalent GP because we want to promote people taking the gear, and we want people who are going through helping gear other people up to get something that they can use when they have had enough of healing 25 Naxx for the 40th time to try and get that one piece off of KT.

10 mans, loot is easy. you are so constrained on classes to maximize buffs and roles that looking at gear is usually enough to decide who gets it. The addon EPGP Lootmaster is great because you can see what the person is currently equipping so you can judge upgrades faster. But it also requires a raid leader who can call the decisions fast, raiders who know what gear they actually need for their class and faith that the raid leader has the best interest of the guild/raid at heart.

protonly
06-17-2009, 04:39 AM
How many players in a raid are truly asked to ever go with their second spec? Maybe one or 2 hybrids are asked to heal. Maybe someone is asked to tank if another tank misses a raid.

From what I've seen, pretty much all tanks are expected to go both ways during a raid -- except our guild main tank. Sometimes you'll get to tank adds/trash but dps bosses, sometimes you just dps the whole night. There really is no off-spec -- some of the fights need four tanks and other fights just need one (or two for tank smash insurance). People are expected to have two raiding main-specs.

@ the abyss shard idea - I like that. Those things are only 100g anyway or so.