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View Full Version : Justified concern or over-reaction?



Zorzil
05-08-2009, 05:53 AM
I've been in my guild for a long time now (20 months) and I really have no desire to cause any unnecessary trouble or leave, but I've got some long-standing issues that don't seem to be getting any kind of resolution (or indeed, any response).

We don't raid very often (three 25-man raids a week for three hours each) but we have made good use of that time, clearing MH/BT and 1/6 SWP in TBC and doing everything up to 8/14 Ulduar so far in WotLK. I wouldn't say we're bad, but its damn frustrating at times because of these issues.

My concern is, we seem to have a couple of individuals who have the idea that their damage output is priority #1 with no heed for team play or precaution; even going as far as to expect others to do things wrongly or compensate for them in ridiculous ways to make their damage-dealing as easy and non-interrupted as possible. This made getting our Sartharion +3 kill especially difficult to achieve (and we've only managed it once) because we would regularly lose these people fairly early on to void zones/fire walls and then not have enough DPS to keep up.

As a long-standing tank, I've always had the mindset of survival over DPS. In my mind, as long as you don't reach the enrage timer, taking stupid risks to attempt to make a fight go faster or inflate your DPS by staying in avoidable AoE is unacceptable. What I don't know however, is whether I'm trying too hard (or possibly, not hard enough!) to try relate this view onto others.

My biggest complaint regards a feral (cat) druid in my guild, who happens to also be an officer and has been since before I joined. He does good DPS, but I get quite irritated by some of his methods and responses during raids. Especially more so since he seems to have drastically worsened since WotLK, when he was actually really quite good during early/mid-TBC. Some memorable examples:

Kael'Thas
Complained regularly at the tank in the phases involving Kael himself when the MT had to move to get out of a flamestrike, often turning Kael briefly which sometimes meant he wasn't behind for his positional-requirement moves, or because the boss moved slightly.

Kalecgos
Expected other people to tell him where his portal was so he didn't have to look for it (when the rest of his group did).

Sartharion +3
Starts going full out on Sartharion when he hasn't even reached the tank. Regularly missed void zones/fire walls and expected others to tell him when to move.

Sartharion +2
Ignored the active drake so he could maintain his DPS by nuking Sartharion.
XT-002 Deconstructor
Wanted other people to tell him when he got a Light/Gravity Bomb so he didn't have to watch for it (despite boss mods making it pretty damn clear). This came up when he stood in the middle of the melee with a Light Bomb for the entire duration then claimed he didn't notice.

Iron Council
Deliberately stays in Overloads when everyone else runs out. Made some attempts to move out of them last night which (IMO) were feeble attempts to cover it up; backpeddling or only reacting after the cast has almost finished. This was also after a bit of a mess-up with one of the tanks dying which killed a few people whilst I tried to pick up Molgeim (as I had Brundir in the very back of the room), so survival and not stressing the remaining healers to save the attempt was key.

Auriaya
Doesn't get involved in splitting the Sonic Screech, ever. All the other melee either stay at the front for the entire fight if they're not sure they'd react fast enough or run in to take it when she starts casting.

Thorim
Expected other people to tell him when Evokers/Champions joined the arena, and when the Lightning Charges appeared behind him.

General
Ignores kill orders to maximise his position on the damage meters by not having to move between mobs. Demands that the tanks move bosses in pretty erratic ways so he can start DPS as soon as possible/keep DPSing without interruption. Pays no attention to dangerous situations and blames the tanks for not warning him.

Example 1: Ulduar Antechamber trash. We normally have one tank take the two Iron Menders and another take the two statues, who moves away when they cast Hardened Fists. The druid kills the Iron Menders then jumps straight onto one of the statues (with its tank nowhere near) and proceeds to get one-shot. Then blames the tanks for not telling him when he could just check the buff like we had to.

Example 2: The Auriaya trash that passes orbs - one got through as the first mob died, causing the second to have a damage increase and AoE on successful swing in addition to its enrage. You can probably guess what happened next (hint: doesn't actually bother checking what mobs/buffs do).

Am I over-reacting over this? I've raised the issue on the guild forums but so far there's been no response. There is the rather unfortunate circumstances that pretty much all of the other officers are almost entirely occupied by real life matters (two are on holiday, one's moving house, the other two have university/work issues right now), but I still feel some explanation should be given.

I'm just so disgusted by the notion that 1-2 people think they can get away with outright shoddy performances, making things harder for other people and get the rewards, especially when they're supposed to be part of the guild leadership. I'm not looking forward to Mimiron at all on 25-man (when I really enjoyed it on the 10 man for being such a crazy fight) because I know he's going to die to the phase 1/4 shockwaves, missiles, turret fire etc. and then blame it on other people and expect them to watch everything for him. Should I take things further or just bite my tongue and try wait it out?

Satrina
05-08-2009, 06:44 AM
That person would be surfing the waitlist in a hurry in my guild. Actually, chronic doucheness like that over time would have gotten him kicked some time ago.

Warwench
05-08-2009, 06:47 AM
yep regardless of damage output, Raiding is a team sport, your part of the team or your off it.

Bluedot
05-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Yeah he would be benched/kicked in a second.
It is everyone's responsibility to know all the mechanics of the fight and be able to react to them without someone holding their hand over vent.
A raider worth your time will have good DPS and be able to avoid simple mechanics like flame wall and void zones.

My suggestion would be do what Cider does.
"PlayerName1 that is the Xth some you have died to Y. Fix It!"
Next time it happens:
"PlayerName1, please step out im bringing in PlayerName2"

High DPS is worthless if your dead.

Cookie
05-09-2009, 02:39 AM
Just post the damage meters after every try and make fun of him. If he's dying so much, then he won't be anywhere close to the top, and since damage matters to him so badly, he won't like it. If he makes some stupid excuse about being unable to do damage because he's dead, point out that if he bothered to stay alive, he'd be doing damage. If he says stupid crap about not seeing void zones or whatever, point out that other people have no problem moving. If he tells you he can't do damage while moving, point out that since other people have no problems doing it, perhaps he's not up to par and should pug T7 raids instead to get more practice.

Or if you don't want to do it directly, download failbot, and either "forget to turn it on" or "update it so it keeps turning on byself".


He's probably doing it again and again because there's no consequence. And I see no reason why the other officers can't help with this. No matter how busy your life is, if you have time to do raids, then you have the 2 seconds it takes to gkick someone.

Lizana
05-09-2009, 09:54 AM
My guild uses a dkp system so we solved the problem very easily. If you die on a bosses preventable aoe/debuffs or on known trash debuffs (ie Mobs explode) For every death you are unable to bid on any items for 1 day.

So if he dies 5 times.. thats 5 days without loot

minrog
05-11-2009, 03:15 AM
A guy who gets the bomb and yells at the rest of the raid to move away from (or tell him he has it) is worthless to your raid. If he's the only active officer you should probably take a few months off until the other ones come back or find another guild. Even if he can do 15k dps (I miss Mount Hyjal buffs...) he'll ruin your ability to trivialize the content. Since he is a feral cat DPS'er you can probably find hundreds of unguilded 5k melee dps raiders who need a home/raid spot.

On a more philosophical note, I think it is appropriate to counterpoint your comment "In my mind, as long as you don't reach the enrage timer, taking stupid risks to attempt to make a fight go faster or inflate your DPS by staying in avoidable AoE is unacceptable."

Once you know the encounters back and front (so not progression 1st kills here) the only way to improve is to speed the kills up. Stuff like pulling 3 or 4 packs of trash at one time, having 4 of your 7 healers switch to aoe ranged dps, stack all the debuffs, go UA build for patchwerk. If it takes you the same amount of time to clear the dungeon as it did the second time you ran it in my opinion you are doing something wrong and there is very little seperating you from a PUG. I'm not saying this is the case with you or your guild but more in a general sense; you did say "stupid risks" so I'm not sure exactly which part you considered stupid hehe.

Zorzil
05-12-2009, 06:11 AM
Thanks for the replies, been a bit busy lately with university stuff to actually make a post myself sooner. I'm quite relieved to know I'm not alone in the thought that some of the things people are doing are just completely out of order. Being part of a casual raiding guild it gets a bit dodgy at times when you bring matters like this up as it sometimes gets the "we're not hardcore" retaliation.

However, it seems that since I made my first post, things have advanced a little. Following my raising of the issue, other people in the guild have now also openly expressed major frustration at how some people have been behaving in our raids, and now that the guild leaders just got back from their holiday (they're a couple) I'm hoping we'll get some solutions to it.

Take this post from our guild forums as an example, posted by one of the healers as a response to the effects of the bad attitude on a night where we were a little lacking on signups and had to run with a sub-optimal setup or not go at all:

We were 1-2 healers short all night - and this was the night where Zorzil's post started to hit home. People not moving out of shit/DPSing before boss/not killing adds = deaths on XT-002, Healers short on Iron Council. It all adds up.
If the subject keeps getting brought up (and I intend to make sure it does), something will have to be done sooner or later. Its even made one extremely frustrated person /gquit and I suspect some other people are holding themselves back from following unless something happens.

The druid in particular should hopefully get given some kind of warning, especially considering he logged out rather hastily with no reply when the temporary raid leader (who happens to be a healer, but not an officer) sent him a short whisper after the raid I mentioned earlier to ask why he keeps taking the Overloads. I doubt he'll be able to run from it forever if we keep going on about it until something happens, or at least I hope not.


Once you know the encounters back and front (so not progression 1st kills here) the only way to improve is to speed the kills up. Stuff like pulling 3 or 4 packs of trash at one time, having 4 of your 7 healers switch to aoe ranged dps, stack all the debuffs, go UA build for patchwerk. If it takes you the same amount of time to clear the dungeon as it did the second time you ran it in my opinion you are doing something wrong and there is very little seperating you from a PUG. I'm not saying this is the case with you or your guild but more in a general sense; you did say "stupid risks" so I'm not sure exactly which part you considered stupid hehe.
Oh, I agree with you. I just consider that natural progression once encounters are well understood; you can begin to alter the raid composition to improve speed (without sacrificing control) and start decimating instances in record times; we have done that with Naxxramas (initially needing 1.5-2 nights to clear it due to taking a steady pace and eventually managing to do pretty much the entirety of Naxxramas in about 2 and a half hours and then go kill Malygos afterwards). Its just doing things like staying in fairly damaging AoE on non-farm encounters that I don't agree with.