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Hussle
05-08-2009, 01:23 AM
My guild recently decided to implement a new loot system for our raids. Each time someone wins loot, they receive a -20 discount on their next roll. This is only for main spec rolls and works for 1 lockout period. Off spec rolls don't count for discounts.

I was wondering if anyone else has used this system? What did you think of it? Did it work in the long run? Were there any serious or unforeseen issues? Is there a magic number that you found to be the best discount.

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks.

Bluedot
05-08-2009, 07:28 AM
The problem I personally have with any type of roll system is if someone has been in the guild for months, has top dps/healing/tanking whatever, makes every raid etc they are on equal footing to get the gear as the guy who has'nt raided in 2 weeks, has low dps and a little slow on void zones.

I am sure you already realize this issue and have dealt with it in your decision to not go with a form of DKP. Just my 2 cents.

Whispah
05-09-2009, 10:15 PM
Yeh, the biggest downside to a system like this is you're not really awarding teh good players and not giving them a reason to stay when they may just have bad luck and you have terrible players come in and gear up before them.

Every system has its flaws and there is no 'perfect' system. However people don't need to like it, they just need to agree on it.

We were using Officer appointed for the end of Vanilla WoW and the whole of BC right up until Naxx in Wrath. We found it was good but also noticed it's limitations and the biased nature of Officers towards certain players.

We then looked into EPGP with a focus on Officers having absolute discretion at all times. EPGP is simple enough; Effort/Gear = Priority.

This basically means that loot isn't going to new players or people who havent put in any effort and at the same time, you don't have a sistuation where people who receive a lot of gear continue to be rewarded with, as i mentioned a focus on Officer Discretion so things like legendaries and big ticket items ignore EPGP entirely.

It really comes down to the kind of people in your guild and what works doesnt work. What ever system you choose, you have to stick to it and work through it and see how you go. And when I say stick through it I mean stick through it for an entire content patch.

Thulldar
05-12-2009, 07:04 AM
I like your idea, I have never heard of it. It gives incentive to only roll on items that are true upgrades and rewards geared players because those who roll the least get what they want.

I have to wonder if it is really the most effective way to reach your goal, though, which is to slightly penalize those who win rolls. Why not just give priority to those with fewest loots?

Under your system, somebody could (although it's very unlikely) win 3 pieces in a row over another person. The loser in that scenario is screwed, even though your system gave him a big advantage.

agaren
05-12-2009, 11:01 AM
we use a combo system, which is all based off of rank. Basically, you manage gear priority by properly using your rank system, in our case we have 3 main groups:

1 raider prospects new recruits lasting up to 1 month. your either promoted at that time based on performance/attendance (min 75%)/attitude, or demoted to social (non raid).

2 raider the general raiding class. to keep this rank you must continually meet/exceed standards for being promoted to this rank.

3 Vet raiders. 95% attendance for raid days, exceptional play, and outside of raid activity.

when loot drops, we ask for whispers from all interested. as a general rule vet>raider>prospect. say 3 vet, 4 raider, 2 prosp. whisper... the 3 vet would roll off for item. if no vet responded then the raiders would roll off.. etc.

It is up to the officers to verify that the item is:

1 valid for the class/spec for the interested party.
2 it is an upgrade from current.
3 that it is not a major upgrade vs. a side grade for 2 competing rollers (of the same rank) major upgrade bypasses roll/makes roller ineledgable.

It is possible for officers, by unanimous decision to award a piece to any rank based on a SIGNIFICANT event as a special reward. i.e... the new prospect saves the raid or some such.I

t basically lets everyone see where they stand and know what they need to do to improve. BUT its all based on actively reviewing/evaluating your people. Its allot of front end work, but saves time and arguments during raids.

Panelo
05-20-2009, 12:47 AM
Hi guys. this worked fantastically in our Vanila guild days, but u have to have VERY mature players and a fantastic class leader to pull this off. but it was fair from everyone point of view, i cant stress enough that the big loot crazed players out there this will not work for.

Basically at the begining of the raid we would have our class leaders roll between thereselves and jot down highest roll to lowest. and in that order people got to choose there gear. if say a Warlock item dropped the warlock with the highest roll would receive it then he would be sent to the bottom of the list and the next item would go to the second warlock. so on and so forth. now in a 40 man raid u could have up to 6 or 7 of any one class and items generally were Class specific, nowadays anyone can use any item, bah ur Tier's but u have far less players to organise. so in theory this system would still work but accros the entire raid not just one class.
i was thinking about this myself as i just 'resurected' the guild that we used this system in and any feedback on the idea would be good, or even some more suggestions on other systems. thx

Mr.Winkle
05-22-2009, 07:18 AM
Wow, some of these loot systems sound incredibly complicated, especially agarens, it must take their guild half an hour to lot a boss.

I'm in a 10man guild and we just use /roll. As master looter i occasionally jump in to avoid a hunter getting a 2handed weapon before a melee but other than that it works great.

We also do 25man co-ops, in those raids we use a very basic loot score system. +1 point for attending a raid, -1 point for winning an item, highest score has priority.

All these mixed loot council/rank/dkp systems just sound insane.

minrog
05-24-2009, 05:27 AM
They get more complicated because they are trying to incentivize more behaviors. Let's take me for example in your system. Assume I have been raiding with this guild for 2 and a half years. I'm kitted out in tier 7.5 loot with a couple of pieces of Ulduar gear and I have 304 raid points built up.

How likely is it that I will help you tank the 45th clear of Naxxramas you will do? If your system is simplistic either it will reward the Naxxramas clears with too many points which gives me a monster point lead and any item I want ever; or it rewards it too little which means I won't go at all. EP/GP is pretty good because I know I'm accumulating points based on time ect but it doesn't allow 100 item leads over the next guy. Once you get to the point where your older players need no item from a dungeon but your new guys need 12 or 13 you run into problems and the more complicated systems are trying to balance this.

When you start rewarding attendance, performance and material donations you have to make sure the system can handle it.

agaren
05-27-2009, 10:19 AM
Wow, some of these loot systems sound incredibly complicated, especially agarens, it must take their guild half an hour to lot a boss.

All these mixed loot council/rank/dkp systems just sound insane.


Actually, no, 99% of the work is all done outside of the raid, where it should be. actual looting takes about 10 seconds an item.

Let me get this out of the way now:
The thing your missing is that your trying to make loot "fair" to the individual. THAT is the problem. Loot is not nor has it ever been fair, Nor can it or will it ever be for the individual. someone always looses, cause there is not enough loot.

Loot distribution ( the WHO and the WHY)is about the health and welfare of the raid group/guild, not about individuals.

If you pug, or joint raid or whatever, then it becomes less of an issue because some % of the loot is going to have no benefit to your own individual part of the group.

Raiding as a guild should be treated differently. I donít care if someone shows up every day to raid, and helps out with guild stuff, or anything else, if they cant play their class in the raid, they donít get gear. There is no benefit for the raid group to give someone loot just cause they are nice people. EVERYONE in the group pulls their own weight, or the get replaced, myself included (yea, it actually happened once, i was having a really bad day, and my own RL replaced me, but then thatís his job, and i would have been pissed if he had not).

And that is where loot distribution comes into play. random rolling puts gear into random hands... not the best place for the benefit of the raid. You always reward your players with the best play skills/attendance/raid benefit With the most appropriate gear. Anything else and your just hamstringing yourself in the end.

I guess that is the difference right there. progression vs. farming. your one or the other, you cant be both. If you want to be a farming guild then its all about individuals getting gear just cause they are there. Do your random rolls, and your ep/gp, and all the other systems that dont require anyone to actually make a choice. because in that sort of enviornment, people are not worried about progression, they just want shinnies.

Progression raiding, however, will always be council of one form or another, or your going to fail. People have to make choices.

Salloman
05-27-2009, 04:52 PM
heh all!

I agree with a lot said here. Having tried most of the loot systems out there... EPGP is by far one of the best out there. If the goal of the guild is to Progress, appear fair and transparent, EPGP is clear winner.

Random rolls are just too random. having someone join a raid who raids once a month get lucky on a roll is not conducive to progression. Loot council is only as good as the council and is always under scrutiny. With the New addon, EPGPLootmaster, it becomes super simple and fast.

Great thing about EPGP once you understand the mechanics is you can tailor it to fit your guilds culture and habits. If you want members to do something, reward them for it, and other way round. Let the system work and stick with it. Less headaches=more fun!

mattdeeze
06-07-2009, 01:21 PM
Agree 100% with the above poster.

It is entirely self sustainable thru addons, Balances loot rewards by effort and distributes loot as widely as possible. EPGP is the very best loot system out there IMO. Rather than just using a fixed bid system, it creates a Priority Ratio between how much effort a char has VS. how much loot they have recieved. It also discourages people from taking side grades that are not clear improvements.

Also, it can be customizable for decay over time so people cant stack points and then sit on them, as well as a changable base GP (gear points), To change how long people need to work to get thier PR (priority ratio) up.

It also makes distributing loot very fast since everyone can input mainspec/offspec/pass on a pop up screen that instantly updates on a page the lootmaster has.

One thing we instituted for our raids is a half price for offspec policy while not requiring it to actually be offspec. People have the option to try and get it for a reduced cost. however it would go to anyone rolling mainspec first.

Matt

Ironfoe
06-10-2009, 09:47 AM
EPGP all the way.

Key things to know about EPGP:

1.)staying updated with the current addons
2.) not swapping lootmasters mid raid
3.) its very fair and effective
4.) set a reasonable decay rate
5.) google search it and read up on its design and implementation

Bountee
07-14-2009, 04:54 AM
We have tried a number of loot systems and firmly believe that the best for social raiding guilds is the Loot Ladder (aka Suicide Kings), we liked it so much we built an online system on our guild website and then most recently made it available for the general public at:

The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com)

check it out

Cathandris
07-14-2009, 09:48 AM
Like many of the previous posters, I have to say that EPGP = win. we have used it through 25s and now into Ulduar, and it keeps things nice and easy. I am going to add wall of text based on a 25 man guild running Ulduar with a 4x week/casual attitude. The system has solved a lot of problems for us and some of you might care.

Some key pros to the system-

-Everyone can download the addon and see the ranking.
-Everyone knows what to do to get more points: you show up, you get more priority than those that don't.
-There is very little upkeep and loot moves quickly. We do it where all interested parties /roll to show interest and whoever has the priority gets it.
-It accounts for new members (decay) and it will even itself out in very little amounts of time.

Some thoughts for making this system work (lets call it advanced tactics :))-

-Get EPGP Lootmaster. It tells you what item is equipped for that person as well as the priority of everyone in raid and will auto tell you GP amounts or have options to give to people for DE or for Bank.
-You can award EP for the little things that make a raid work more smoothly or for important events. After a night of progression, you can add more ep for those members that stuck it out for the 2 hours of wipes to equate to a night where you would kill 4 bosses in the same amount of time.
-You can award GP for stupidity. We had a Warrior who refused to flask even when the other 24 people were ready to go. We are slightly casual so we don't /gkick like I might enjoy doing, but a 500 GP hit and 10gp for every unflasked minute will quickly drop their priority and open their eyes.
-There can still be oversight. GM and I (RL/co-GM) have discretion to stop things like hunters rolling on betrayer over arms wars, one person taking 3 pieces in a night, etc.
-We free roll tier. This makes it so even if you have super low priority or if you are a new recruit you still have a chance at something in a raid. Countless times we have watched a recruit grab a single piece of tier when they were expecting to walk through and get bypassed for al the loot and they are happy to keep coming back and work for the guild/raid. Still charge GP because they did get an item, but it helps keep the system even-keel and more people getting loot.
-Dont run EPGP for all content. If you are clearing through 25 Uld and you do 10 mans in Uld for teaching/practice or run 25 Naxx for gearing alts and recruits, having it just based on common sense and not based on Priority will get people gear faster and makes people likely to take more side grades if they know they won't lose out on their Ulduar priority for Ironmender.
-Price off spec loot at 10%. Gearing off sets is great for flexibility, esp when your MT can jump over and do 4k dps when Hodir comes around and you only your FR geared Feral. Oftentimes gear gets overlooked because they don't want to hit their priority. 10% makes it where they won't nose dive, but you don't get gear whores.

In the end, stick with what you got. The first week or two will see large fluctuations with any system until it gets evened out for a couple weeks of random drops. switcching it because the first week was confusing will get only more confusion.

Silveronfire
07-15-2009, 05:49 AM
Since I PUG a lot, I feel that the roll with reduction amount might be a good method to try in a PUG. DKP and all its variants might service a guild quite well but obviously become void in a group of people with no obligation to one another.

IMO most raids in wrath are puggable. Even 10 and some of 25 Ulduar are pugable and will be more so after 3.2 is released and the standard of gearing increases.

The other nice benefit to the reduced roll system is that in a situations where you bring a PUG into a guild run they are not totally screwed for loot. Since at the core of things this is a game that *many* (certainly not all) people play so they can obtain loot (so they can do harder content or just because they like purple instead of blue) It is certainly worth keeping the PUGs happy, especially when so many raids DO PUG.

Keep the level of incentive even throughout the raid to all the members of the raid, people will show up.

Salloman
07-15-2009, 10:41 AM
heh! wanted to revisit this topic quickly and possible propose a question to others that are pugging during the summer fall out.

My Guild and Members love the EPGP system, but we are stuck with pugging the last 4-6 players for our 25 mans just to run the raid as of late. This has forced us to hand out loot by rolls which we hate. So, we are trying to award members with EP for showing up for scheduled raids but also have to apply GP to items won to keep our system intact. Does anyone have any experience on using EPGP in pugs?

We were thinking of having a combined system, one where when an item drops everyone who can use it(only those that need it) roll for the item and if a pug wins they get the item. In the case where a guild member wins, we would distribute the item via our loot system. While our guild is perfectly happy with this, we are concerned that the pug may think they are "rolling against the guild". Any thoughts or alternatives?


Thanks

Bountee
07-21-2009, 05:20 AM
Your EPGP problem is a major downfall with the system. Most guilds have to pug people and as a result EPGP fails. This is one of the problems that we dealt with and do continue to deal with as guild numbers fluctuate. Unles your one of the top 10 guilds that do not have to recruit then EPGP and DKP will be a short lived system. I honestly belive that these systems are phantasy for most Guild masters. Hence we developed the The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com) loot ladder system and continue to use it for raiding now. The Drunken Dwarf (http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com) is just the public version of the one we have on Riddle of Steel (http://www.riddleofsteel.org.au).

gamma_ray
09-10-2009, 12:26 PM
The loot system you choose is completely dependent on how you set up your raids. My guild is in the process of recruiting newer members, while still keeping a core raid group moving. In order to gear up these new members it makes sense that we split these groups up and have the core raiders help them with quick naxx runs to ensure that they get loot by not pugging and what not.

In a DKP or point system, helping your guildies through naxx runs should be rewarded with a substantial, albeit smaller, point boost that will encourage your entire guild to get in on it.

A loot system that I believe is pretty decent is rolling /100 for the first piece you want. If you win, the next time your roll, its /99. If nobody rolled out of 100, then you win the piece (assuming you beat anyone else who rolled /99) After your second win, you roll /98 and so on. For offspec rolls, just roll something random like /101 to make sure that its always apparent your rolling for your offspec. This will ensure that people who haven't won, will have a chance and seed the victors into a seperate pool. Of course this depends on your raid makeup and skill.

Whispah
09-13-2009, 11:01 PM
I cannot disagree more with Gamma_ray.

There is no way you can actually expect to keep a 'core raid group' togethor long term is you are giving loot out by rolls. What motivation does one have to stay in a guild where new people keep getting loot ahead of them because they won the roll. People dont raid for a 'chance' at loot, they raid for loot.

I speak from experience after running 2 Top 50 Guilds and now in a Top 10 guild. Doesn't matter how nice and friendly you are, if someone gets a better offer they will go elsewhere. Plain and simple.

If your struggling with raiders and subsequently have to recruit more and more people, the one thing you need is a stable loot system that everyone understands and agrees with that rewards time and effort. If you're in a guild of just mates then maybe rolling may work because you're glad to see your mates getting all the luck but outside of that, rolls just do not work in a stable raiding guild.