PDA

View Full Version : Are the new tanking enchants even good?



gacktt
05-06-2009, 09:34 PM
From the looks of it = the life one just heals you for 2-3k right? that's like 1 tick of a hot.

Parry = 200 parry rating every now and then, looks like a weaker mongoose.

Anyone have any opinions of what the new enchants feel like?

Zo
05-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Personally I'm sticking with mongoose till the end of progression. We've had the Blade Ward enchant drop a few times but the negatives seem to overwhelm the positives on this one.

For a more in depth discussion look at the blade warding though check out http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/48831-blade-warding-analysis-what-proc-makes-better.html

Martie
05-06-2009, 09:47 PM
From the looks of it = the life one just heals you for 2-3k right? that's like 1 tick of a hot.

Parry = 200 parry rating every now and then, looks like a weaker mongoose.

Anyone have any opinions of what the new enchants feel like?
I haven't made up my mind completely on the value of them, but you look at the healing one wrong. It's not 1 tick of a hot. It's a healing potion at the moment that you need a healing potion. That's valuable.

The other one seems of less value then mongoose to me as well - mainly because the effect is consumed when you parry, making it a one-hit thing.

Kasath
05-06-2009, 11:06 PM
Ciderhelm has Blood Draining on his Titanguard.
Xav has Mongoose on Last Laugh
Kungen has Blood Draining on Titanguard.
Satrina is using Accuracy on Last Laugh.

When I don't know what to do, I armory these guys, and copy off of them. Nobody is using Blade Ward.

Of course, it's all about having more tools in your bag. What I am looking at on the armory is just 1 instance in time, maybe these guys are wearing their threat or survivability stuff, and they have another weapon with a different enchant ready to go.

I'd do Blood Draining on Titanguard, and Accuracy on my Last Laugh (especially as an Orc).

Fyran
05-07-2009, 01:11 AM
I'm using Blood Draining on my Titanguard as well. Think of it that way: You shouldn't drop below 35% HP too often, so let's pretend you always have 5 stacks stacked when it happens. That's a 2,2k heal right there when you need it, which roughly equals "220 stamina" you would have to have more to have the same effect - or think of it as an intelligent health pot, whatever works for you. It indeed is situational and a 1 stack heal doesn't do that much, but it's still the best progression enchant in my opinion.

Still having Last Laugh with Accuracy, though.

wayne
05-07-2009, 01:18 AM
I have the Blood Draining enchant on my Slayer or Lifeless and I am sticking with it. WWS reports that in a normal 10man ulduar run, it heals me for only 25-35k, but that is 25-35k when you need it most.

Ghladum
05-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Blood Draining looks like the clear winner to me. Assuming 41khp buffed, if you dip below 35% to trigger the Enchant effect you'd be sitting at or UNDER 14,350hp. Consider that the average heal for this (data obtained from wowhead.com comments, caveat emptor!) is ~2,000 with a stack of 5 Blood Reserve on you, that more or less an instant, free and certain 14% health increase. HP become more and more precious the fewer you have, and although being at or under 35% health is NEVER ideal - the biggest part of progression tanking is figuring out how to deal with non-ideal situations that lead to tank death and raid wipes. So far as I can tell, this is the absolute winner in 3.1 enchants.

wayne
05-07-2009, 01:37 AM
So far as I can tell, this is the absolute winner in 3.1 enchants.
I wish the tanks on my realm would realise this and start buying the damn enchant then.

I havent seen one other tank with it on, but nobody has bought one off me.....

Kataztrophe
05-07-2009, 04:04 AM
I've had Blade Ward on my LL, and now have Blood Draining on my Titan. I must say Blood Draining is the superior after looking thru my logs. Kind of like a free mini-health pot. If you are a MT I totally recommend it.

Masako
05-07-2009, 04:39 AM
Our guild got the blade warding first week of Ulduar. When i first tested it, it seemed to have a high proc rate and i would get 3 stacks of it quite often. Just a few minutes ago though i tested it out prior to responding to this thread and it took me 5 minutes on a dummy to get it to stack to 3. So i'm thinking that maybe it was stealth nerfed or i may have just had bad 'rng'. As far as avoidance gains my normal parry is at 19.63%. One stack puts me at 22.14%, 2 stacks 24.33% and 3 stacks puts me at 26.26%.

I'm almost certain that parrying at attack will take away the whole buff regardless of how many stacks you have built up. Can anyone comfirm this? does it take them all away or just 1 stack? Also we just got blood draining recently, but i am still sceptical about getting it on my only tanking weapon (didnt get any extra LL, or BP while farming naxx). My main reason is i dont know if it has a GCD of some sort. If it can proc continously then it would be a nice enchant to have.

Mhoram
05-07-2009, 05:58 AM
It's pretty sad when even the weapon chain thing gets more use than the new enchants.

Kerchunk
05-07-2009, 10:33 AM
From the looks of it = the life one just heals you for 2-3k right? that's like 1 tick of a hot.

You say that like it's a bad thing. "One tick of a HoT" that's guaranteed to hit when we need it and will heal us for 400-2200 which is the equivalent of 40-220 extra Stamina's worth of health in our pool in certain situations.

Would you be complaining about a +60 Stamina enchant? Probably not. So why complain about an enchant that accomplishes effectively the same thing by adding that much additional health to our pool when we need it most (when our health is low)?

pezking7p
05-07-2009, 12:28 PM
Would you be complaining about a +60 Stamina enchant? Probably not. So why complain about an enchant that accomplishes effectively the same thing by adding that much additional health to our pool when we need it most (when our health is low)?

This is a complete misnomer. 60 stam is NOT the same as 600hp heal at 15k HP. By this same logic if I have even one healer on me I should be immortal, since their total healing can be infinite, given infinite time (and hey, they heal me right when I need it too, which is while I'm taking dmg).

The odds of even a 2k heal saving you from a killing blow are so small that it's not even worth talking about. I'm willing to bet that of all the parses from all the tanks who have this enchant, we would find perhaps a handful of cases where blood draining saved a life.

EDIT: I want to add that my view point on the 2k heal saving you from a killing blow are based on the bosses that I've fought and the times that I personally die while tanking. When we start hardmodes this week I may see some different incoming damage situations, but right now the bosses that are killing me don't have dmg ranges that make a heal at 35% very valuable.

Kerchunk
05-07-2009, 01:28 PM
This is a complete misnomer. 60 stam is NOT the same as 600hp heal at 15k HP.

It's not the same in every situation but it's not much different in a large number of scenarios either.


The odds of even a 2k heal saving you from a killing blow are so small that it's not even worth talking about.

This is a completely vacuous statement with absolutely no supporting data. 2200 healing is upwards of 5% of an average Tank's health pool and there are numerous situations in which a 5% buffer can make a huge difference.

Keeping a Tank alive means ensuring they have enough health to survive the next hit. Whether that's a 45% melee hit or environmental damage for 5% of their health, the only important thing is that their current health is greater than the amount of damage they are about to take.

So do you have empirical data to support this claim of the odds of a 5% heal helping the tank being astronomically low? I don't have data to claim otherwise, but I'm certainly not going to dismiss it out of hand just because I've read some things on a forum somewhere.

Common sense tells me that there are plenty of situations in which 5% extra healing is going to make a difference:

Tank at 75% health.
Tank hit for 50% health.
Tank healed for 25% health.
Tank hit for 50% health.

In this situation, the ~2-5% buffer from Blood Draining has saved the tank.

Tank at 50% health.
Tank hit for 45% health.
Tank instantly hit by environmental damage.

In this situation, the ~2-5% bufer from Blood Draining has saved the tank.

etc., etc.

These situations are entirely plausible, and there are many more, in which that extra 5% healing is going to make the difference between a wipe and survival.

Just stating the odds are "so low" tells us nothing. Frankly the odds that the 1.36% dodge that Mongoose provides will save you from a wipe are pretty damn low in my opinion too - but people seem completely willing to make the definitive claim that it's a superior enchant.


I'm willing to bet that of all the parses from all the tanks who have this enchant, we would find perhaps a handful of cases where blood draining saved a life.

Do you need more than a handful? Do you think Mongoose is saving tanks in more than a "handful" of cases? How many is a handful?

Hell, if it prevents my death in a "handful" of Yogg-Saron attempts then frankly it sounds like a pretty damn good enchant to me.


EDIT: I want to add that my view point on the 2k heal saving you from a killing blow are based on the bosses that I've fought and the times that I personally die while tanking. When we start hardmodes this week I may see some different incoming damage situations, but right now the bosses that are killing me don't have dmg ranges that make a heal at 35% very valuable.

That's the mistake everyone is making. It's not about a single heal at 35% it's about total accumulated healing.

If all incoming heals on you total 40% after you get hit below 35%, then the addition of Blood Draining makes that 45% instead - a non-trivial increase to the amount of incoming healing, and a fairly large buffer zone to prepare you to receive the next incoming attack.

You're grossly simplifying the situations in which the enchant will come into play to support your argument. Yes, if you are receiving NO OTHER HEALING then a 2k heal is not going to be much help to you when you are being hit for 45% of your maximum health.

However, that's NEVER the case. You're always getting healed - all Blood Draining does is boost that amount of healing which is going to make it that much more likely that you have enough health to survive the next incoming attack.

Kerchunk
05-07-2009, 01:33 PM
To simplify my wall of text:

Do not think of Blood Draining as acting to "save" you from a hit - rather it's cooperating with your healers to help prepare you to receive the next one.

Mhoram
05-07-2009, 01:43 PM
A question, though: it seems there are people still using Mongoose. I read that the proc rate was way lower once we hit 80, to the point where it wasn't as effective as it had been at 70. Is this the case, or is it still just as good?

Everest
05-07-2009, 02:29 PM
I find bladewarding an extremely good enchant.

It proccs ALOT ( maybe 3 ppm, way more than mongoose,) has no hidden cooldown, and it stacks to 5 ( for a total of 1000 parry rating!)

Got it on my titanguard atm, used to have blood draining and was very happy with that aswell.

pezking7p
05-07-2009, 02:47 PM
To simplify my wall of text:

Do not think of Blood Draining as acting to "save" you from a hit - rather it's cooperating with your healers to help prepare you to receive the next one.

I think you may have underestimated the amount of thought that went in to my response. But the fact is that touting blood draining as the equivalent of a 60 stam enchant is misleading. As you pointed out in your examples above, the benefit of this enchant is extremely situation-specific and random.

Blood draining boosts your odds of survival in freak scenarios by a small percent. Blade warding and mongoose do as well, but they are immeasurable, and no one will ever be able to say that blade ward saved them. I watched all my death parses for the last 4 raid days and found that none of my deaths would have been prevented by blood draining, which is how I decided to test blade ward, which, I think, is a very underrated enchant, but that's a whole different story.

Aterror
05-08-2009, 12:29 PM
Me and my other tank(prot pally), both have these chants. I have BW, and he has BD. Depending on the fight, we take our rolls and the chants end up working really well. Since they are so specific, once I get another LL i'll pry end up giving the other chant to that, and making it easier to do my job in any reguard.

Personally though, if your not expertised/hit capp'd.... don't even thinking about doing BW fyi.

Tizack
05-09-2009, 08:53 AM
I like the enchant overall increase in avoidance and a good amount of damage when now that we are more apt to spam devastate with the 10% crit chance added onto it. here is a WWS of our General Vezax kill.
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/t34d6hyiibbpq?s=538837-615477&a=x5800000008e0284)

Just under 8 min Kill it proced 23 times and did 2% of my damage. Also according to WWS it had a 26% uptime over the course of the fight. about 2 mins of the 8 minute fight. Considering that i am actually running away from him for about 1 min of the fight it is actually a higher % of actual tanking time.

Kojiyama
05-09-2009, 10:01 AM
Accuracy is becoming quite useless due to the huge amount of Hit Rating on a lot of available tanking gear. So, I'd take that (and Weapon Chain) out of the picture for now.

We did the math on Blade Warding on an EJ forum and, at best, it the same or worse than Mongoose. There isn't much point, and it scales worse due to the higher DR on Parry. I would avoid it.

I'm planning on testing Blood Draining as we got it this week in the guild, and I want to ditch my old Accuracy enchant.

However, given that many tanks are on the razor's edge of surviving extra hits which are quite large, I would think Blood Draining makes a lot of sense in the current content.

I would say Mongoose and Blood Draining are probably both quite viable. I would stay away from Blade Warding though. Mongoose is just better due to its more consistant nature. (It has almost twice as much uptime as Blade Warding, with a smaller increase per uptime. Basically, it's just less spikey.)

Trondhjem
05-09-2009, 10:26 AM
Uptime has nothing to say about a buff, that vanishes when activated.
It does not help, you have 99% parry but are constantly hit though, if you know what I mean...

however I'm wondering why it deals double the damage of retri-aura...

Motoma
05-09-2009, 04:54 PM
As said in a previous post, Blood draining will rarely save you, but blood draining helps the healers save you from the hit to come.

I find it alot more effective than a very random avoidence/threat boost, but it ofcourse depends on the encounter.

ikir
05-11-2009, 12:45 AM
I find bladewarding an extremely good enchant.

It proccs ALOT ( maybe 3 ppm, way more than mongoose,) has no hidden cooldown, and it stacks to 5 ( for a total of 1000 parry rating!)

Got it on my titanguard atm, used to have blood draining and was very happy with that aswell.

I don't know what is wrong here..... it procs so bad for me. maybe it is abilities related (so classe related)? I'm a prot warrior.

swelt
05-11-2009, 02:05 AM
How are you measuring the blade warding proc? If you look at recount for the number of blade warding hits you only see the times where it procs and then you get a parry. Is that how many times it procs? Not quite, because there are times when you gain the +parry but don't parry any attacks. Is it the same as the number of useful procs? Well maybe.

I think that's the problem with Blade Warding. It seems as though it's been careful designed not to be over powered, but they've gone way too far and left it rather muted. The whole "stacking buff that resets when you get a parry" is quite a nice concept. It reminds me of darkmoon card wrath (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31857) from TBC. What it should effectively do is balance out 'dry streaks' of low avoidance (or crits in the wrath case). If you were parrying a lot, it wouldn't do very much (some extra damage) but the longer you go without parrying, the more likely you are to do so. The issue is that the proc rate/buff duration is tuned low enough that the buff is quite likely to drop off without stacking up even if you don't parry.

Could be good. Would like to see it get tweaked up a bit. For now, quite liking blood draining. The healing totals aren't phenomenal, but if you think of it like an automatic health pot injector it becomes quite endeering.

Regill
05-13-2009, 08:11 AM
I tried blood draining and one night of watching it, and even more so, one wws parse and I was convinced it was a horrid enchant.

Here's the problem. It will almost never stack to 5 in ulduar. The internal cooldown is 45 seconds. So you have to go 225 seconds minimum to get a 5 stack to that nice sounding 2k heal. 225 seconds without going under 35%. If that is happening, by very definition the boss is trivial, and you are not in danger. If you are not in danger, you don't need extra heals, you don't need more EH.

The more likely occurrence in ulduar is that your dropping below 35% all the time, which means that it gets used up with only a single stack for something pitiful like 400 hp heal.

From reading my wws reports blood draining will get you a couple thousand in free heals just when you need them. Blade warding will get you a parry or two you may or may not need, and 0.6-0.8% extra damage.

For hard mode bosses that hit for ludicrous amounts, often over one shot without a cooldown, bosses like thorim hard that buff their attack speed into the 0.3 second range, I'll take the parry. The heal will not save me, the parry might.

short form: Do you want healed for 400 hp, or do you want to parry a 30k hit?

P.S. I read somewhere that mongoose proc rate was intentionally nerfed for any char above lvl 70, but a lot of people here seem to like it still... anyone know reliable info on this?

clavarnway
05-13-2009, 12:20 PM
I tried blood draining and one night of watching it, and even more so, one wws parse and I was convinced it was a horrid enchant.

Here's the problem. It will almost never stack to 5 in ulduar. The internal cooldown is 45 seconds. So you have to go 225 seconds minimum to get a 5 stack to that nice sounding 2k heal.

10 second internal cooldown - watch your buffs better. So from start of combat, it takes 40 seconds to get a 5 stack.

Lizana
05-13-2009, 12:23 PM
short form: Do you want 100% promised heal when you most need it, or do you want a chance to proc an enchant that has a chance to allow you to parry a hit?


Fixed this for you

Regill
05-13-2009, 01:26 PM
10 second internal cooldown - watch your buffs better. So from start of combat, it takes 40 seconds to get a 5 stack.

Well I'll take your word for it, maybe I was thinking of a different proc. The total healing done from that enchant never added up to more than a few thousand total for each boss fight, that I remember clearly. Hell improved leader of the pack outhealed it by something like triple if memory serves. Even supposing it added up to 15k healing that still does not equal one parry.

Think of it from another perspective, do you ever die to a small amount of overkill? I don't, the overkill is always large, certainly larger than 2k.

From yet another perspective. At 10+ stacks on Thorim hard mode, a 400-2000 heal will not save you. On IC, with Steelbreaker last that heal will not save you.

On the challenging encounters, when the damage is at its highest you are in constant risk of being instagibbed, and avoidance is essential to keeping you up. These encounters are tossing around 30 to 40k melee hits, Unbalancing strikes that reach 50 to 60k, fusion punches reaching 50 to 60k. Thorim gets his attack speed up under 0.5 seconds near the end when on hard mode. Only proper cooldown rotations and timely heals from your healers will let you live, and if RNG decides to bite you, an extra 2k will not save you.

I know everyone is in love with effective health, and blood drain fits right in. I like EH too, and I have the stam gems to prove it. But you can't totally disregard avoidance. If you take 4 hits in a row on some of these fights your dead, and avoidance lowers the chance of that streak happening.

If it really does proc that often then I could see blood drain being helpful on easy mode content, but its a drop of water in a typhoon when your on hard mode.

The sad part of this whole discussion is neither enchant is very good. The blood drain should be stronger, and blade ward shouldn't use up the proc one the first parry. Why blizz gave us bad tank chants is beyond me.

burnout180sx
05-13-2009, 03:09 PM
Why does blizzard keep trying to push these enchants which has a chance to heal you?

These enchants will forever be nothing but a gimmick. Far as I am concerned if you have to rely on an enchant to heal you to stay alive you have bigger problems. The simple fact is if they were ever to buff these healing enchants enough to make them viable the mass amount of QQ you would hear from PvP would be astonishing.

The reason there hasn't been a heated discussion about weapon enchants up until now is because previously a tank had to work in order to reach hit cap so Accuracy and the poor man version Weapon Chain was viable. However with the amount on hit on Ulduar we are finding that now its the completely other way around now instead of liking every bit of hit we can get we find our selves trying to avoid as much as possible being over hit cap. Its not like the gear we have to pass on wearing is bad because its overall stats are bad, if the same item existed when hit cap wasn't so easily obtained those pieces would have been BiS hands down.

Here is what we have to choose from now.

Formula: Enchant Weapon - Accuracy (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44496)
Titanium Weapon Chain (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41976)
(Both no longer as useful to a tank with access to Ulduar gear)


Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46348)
Someone argued that this is good because its like being able to use multiple health pots during a fight. If for some strange reason there are tanks that still regularly choose to use there pot cool down on a health pot instead of a indestructible potion the health pot would still trump this enchant. Why? Because you have control over when to use a health pot when you see yourself very low and your healers communicate that they can't get a quick heal you pop one. But this enchant is random so itís a good chance of it not proc'ing when you really need it.

This leaves us with only Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46027) to choose from an enchant which currently is comparable to Formula: Enchant Weapon - Mongoose (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22559). Is this what blizzard wants for us to even be considering using an enchant which is 10levels lower than the current level cap and even in its nerfed form for players above 70 still better than what we have at 80?

I recall a post from developers saying that they don't want there to be one enchant out there that every tank uses because its outshines all others like mongoose did and that they liked there being diversity among what we choose for our enchants. But Mongoose wasn't really entirely like this there were still tanks out there that choose executioner over mongoose and it was based on tanks preference and the encounter. Even so aren't there other enchants out there where there is no question on which to choose (legs, helm, shoulders etc) and what about other classes how many PvE focused mages and warlocks out there choose another enchant over 63 spell power to weapon?

I am not saying that Blizzards goal isn't good but the way to achieve this goal is not by giving us these sub par enchants where the options are so bad that it doesn't matter what we choose. How about giving us three different enchants to choose from each which shines in one specific area AV, EH, Threat. This way we have three enchants which will be choosen based on the playerís goal and play style.

Whatever is decided please just do something to solve the current dilemma.

Thanks

Lizana
05-13-2009, 08:29 PM
Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46348)
Someone argued that this is good because its like being able to use multiple health pots during a fight. If for some strange reason there are tanks that still regularly choose to use there pot cool down on a health pot instead of a indestructible potion the health pot would still trump this enchant. Why? Because you have control over when to use a health pot when you see yourself very low and your healers communicate that they can't get a quick heal you pop one. But this enchant is random so itís a good chance of it not proc'ing when you really need it.


Please explain to me a heal when you are at or drop below 35% hp is random or not wanted and not needed? It has a great proc rate, for most people in WWS reports i have viewed it has had an almost 70% uptime.

Also when your low on health or get hit low on health, you do not have time to ask your healers or even be told by your healers they are going to be a second slow on the heal, Thats why the fact that this is an auto heal at 35% is so valuable.

You talk about how even a health pot is more valuable, can a health pot go off multiple times during a fight and still allow you to double pot armor pots?

Whitegold
05-13-2009, 08:44 PM
It's pretty sad when even the weapon chain thing gets more use than the new enchants.
Sadly many tanks (all in my guild) are still using the heroic tanking weapon (Red Sword of Courage) and simply can't justify the cost of a better enchant on a heroic weapon.

We also don't really have access to anything better, as we're doing 10 mans (guild is too small for 25 mans) and not progressing far enough into Ulduar for Legacy of Thunder or Stoneguard.

Lizana
05-13-2009, 08:49 PM
Slayer of the Lifeless is a mitigation upgrade from the heroic sword

Whitegold
05-13-2009, 09:04 PM
it's a minor upgrade for mitigation, but hardly huge. I wouldn't consider IT worthy of the 3.1 enchants either. :)

Rhyseh
05-13-2009, 09:11 PM
Sadly many tanks (all in my guild) are still using the heroic tanking weapon (Red Sword of Courage) and simply can't justify the cost of a better enchant on a heroic weapon.

We also don't really have access to anything better, as we're doing 10 mans (guild is too small for 25 mans) and not progressing far enough into Ulduar for Legacy of Thunder or Stoneguard.

Get some pugs in with your guildies and do some Flame Leviathan runs for Titanguard, easy as hell to do and better than Last Laugh unless you're an Orc.

Aethelas
05-13-2009, 11:12 PM
So the general concensus is that all the tanking enchants suck currently? That's in interesting notion, really.

Gearing wise I'm currently at the point I believe I'm best served by blood draining. A possible 2k heal would have saved me about 3-5 times just the last night of raiding. I have no doubt its value will dwindle once people gear up and simply reach higher effective health standards.

I'm guessing I'll still have too much parry on my statistics to warrant any use from blade warding when i've met the effective health standards. It's a bitch to really believe that I'll be going back to mongoose after 7 months of the expansion, but I guess it makes most sense.

proudmoore
05-14-2009, 04:11 AM
Think of it from another perspective, do you ever die to a small amount of overkill? I don't, the overkill is always large, certainly larger than 2k.

From yet another perspective. At 10+ stacks on Thorim hard mode, a 400-2000 heal will not save you. On IC, with Steelbreaker last that heal will not save you.
By that same token, you might as well still be wearing Naxx-10 gear, because an upgrade is usually only something like +10 stamina or so, and that will never be the difference between dying or not. It's not a valid claim to make.

You can't evaluate a single enchant based on your prediction that it will never be the difference between life and death. You have to consider it in combination with a myriad of other factors, most of which you either cannot model, or won't even think of. Or, put another way, this is an unmodelable problem, with sufficient ambiguities as to suggest that whichever option you choose, you probably won't notice the difference either way.

Kovac
05-14-2009, 05:11 AM
Gah, first post attempt got eaten by proxy server.... Lets try again...

My problem with BD is that it's reactive. You take the damage and get healed. I'd prefer to avoid taking that bit of damage in the first place.

As a Paladin it also interferes with my Argent Defender a bit, and up til now I've been using Potency for the extra strength anyway. At present I don't see much reason to switch away from that, though I'm keeping an open mind based on evidence people are offering up.